New PS2 but old DOT ?

[Viper Parts of America]

One nice thing about Nitto running out of Invos. Mine are brand new! The rears are from the third week of 2011 and the fronts are from the second week of 2011.

Now those are some FRESH tires!


Interesting side note: A few months ago we were approached by a well-known wholesaler that had numerous Viper sizes available as excess inventory, including around forty (40) Michelin PS2's in 345/30-19. Date codes were a concern for us as well, so we asked about tire conditions (take-offs, brand new, etc.) and for the range of date codes (oldest to newest). Three days later we were informed that "we looked at the tires only to find that the date code has been buffed off, sorry". It would be interesting to see if anybody ended up with those tires on their car but didn't think to look.

 

[LifeIsGood]

3 year old tires are not new...I don't give a rats ass what the NHTSA, Michelin, Kuhmo, TireRack, Tire and Rubber Council, Rubber Mfrs Assn or Jon$5B has to say about it.

It's common sense...you can argue blah, blah, freakin' blah until your red in the face...but the facts are the facts...3 year old tires are not new. There has been so much spoken/written/posted about this that if sellers on this site aren't telling buyers that the dates will be 3 years old, then shame on them.

I'm not saying that they aren't safe...just that they are not NEW!

 

[AZTVR]

To Jon and Luke and VPA. The problem really is that your customer base is composed of many people that decided they wanted to own a car with ultimate performance. Many will pay for things that often have very little perceptible increase in driving "feel," but were bought for the perceived benefit of increasing the car's performance.

So, when buying unused tires that were manufactured 2-3 years previously, and there is a stated 2-3% degradation per year of storage possible, there definitely is a perceived decrease in performance from "optimum." That's the opposite of what we strive for.

Having said that, I have received and have driven the 2 year "old", unused tires on the track and on the road. I could not tell the difference from new tires.

I also will say that I do believe the experts that Jon listed.

 

[intense5.5]

Now those are some FRESH tires!


Three days later we were informed that "we looked at the tires only to find that the date code has been buffed off, sorry". It would be interesting to see if anybody ended up with those tires on their car but didn't think to look.

Wonder if that's legal .If I purchased tires and that's what I got I'd refuse them.

 

[steve911]

Well with any other company, if you have an overstock of something you tend to have a discount to shift excess stock,
How come we are not seeing big big discounts on these tires Hell if they were cheaper I would buy some.

I guess Michelin are not bothered

What do you expect? they're French.......

 

[LiquoRT/10]

Interesting side note: A few months ago we were approached by a well-known wholesaler that had numerous Viper sizes available as excess inventory, including around forty (40) Michelin PS2's in 345/30-19. Date codes were a concern for us as well, so we asked about tire conditions (take-offs, brand new, etc.) and for the range of date codes (oldest to newest). Three days later we were informed that "we looked at the tires only to find that the date code has been buffed off, sorry". It would be interesting to see if anybody ended up with those tires on their car but didn't think to look.

This info shouldn't be a "side note", it should be a sticky for all to see.

 

[Garron]

Wonder if that's legal .If I purchased tires and that's what I got I'd refuse them.

This is a different story completely, they did not buff the date code off because they had nothing to hide.

 

[ViperGTS]

>>>Finally: If you truly profess to want to prolong your tire life, fill them with Nitrogen. Less oxidation from the inside. Other benefits, too.<<<

That's a fairy tale - check how much nitrogen is in the "air" and you will understand that the little difference will not make any difference.

Old tires are old tires. And, with putting low miles on the Viper every summer a NEW tire should be new OR you throw away an old tire soon with a lot of tread, but rock hard after a few years...

IF I BUY A NEW TIRE - I WANT A NEW TIRE (manufacturing date). Not one I do not know where and how it has been stored for years!

 

[AZTVR]

So, how long between the "born on date" and the sell date is acceptable for a new tire according to Viper tire consumers ? One week? 10 weeks? Who decides, and based on what facts? That is what the argument here boils down to. Remeber, we are only talking about properly stored and non-heat cycled tires here.

The manufacturers and the sellers have stated their position. (re: Jon's posted links and input.)

 

[Garron]

So, how long between the "born on date" and the sell date is acceptable for a new tire according to Viper tire consumers ? One week? 10 weeks? Who decides, and based on what facts? That is what the argument here boils down to. Remeber, we are only talking about properly stored and non-heat cycled tires here.

The manufacturers and the sellers have stated their position. (re: Jon's posted links and input.)

The sellers have stated their position because the manufacturers have put them in that position. I am sure they would perfer to sell tires with a recent date code.

I have sent this link to Michelin, with a long email of our concerns about low milage per year and age. I will post the responce

 

[Fatboy 18]

What do you expect? they're French.......

Ha Ha, yes your right, well there is one way they might take notice....If everyone purchased another brand

 

[AZTVR]

Ha Ha, yes your right, well there is one way they might take notice....If everyone purchased another brand

Not sure that I know of a tire manufacturer that has a different policy. At least the two brands that I buy for my Viper have the same policy. AFAIK.

The way to change the manufacturer's mindset is to refuse to buy tires older than whatever the buyer decides is his comfort zone for a sell by time. That would probably increase the manufacturing cost because they would have to do more and smaller production runs, and either eat the cost of the unused tires, or discount them to people like me, who would buy them.

I'm not ready yet to pay more for tires, though.

 

[TI3VOM]

So, how long between the "born on date" and the sell date is acceptable for a new tire according to Viper tire consumers ? One week? 10 weeks? Who decides, and based on what facts? That is what the argument here boils down to. Remeber, we are only talking about properly stored and non-heat cycled tires here.

The manufacturers and the sellers have stated their position. (re: Jon's posted links and input.)

I would personally have not had an issue with 6 month to 1 yr old tires when they arrived, I would have understood the reasons but from 08 and this common?!? That to me is a big problem, the vendors can claim all day that they had them in a sealed case for all I care but where is the proof? I say they post the dates upon purchase and we can either refuse or accept, but don't ship us the tires and hope we are not going to pay attention or think that no one will not have an issue with them being 3 yrs old.

 

[fqberful]

When I bought my 06 Coupe BRAND NEW, 2 of the tires were from '04 and 2 from '05 -- car was built in Feb 06. Should I have returned the car because the tires were old ?

As long as the tires are stored in a fairly well controlled climate I challenge anyone to drive a new and an old set and be able to tell the difference.

I see this with most manufactures and in many tire sizes besides just the ones the Viper uses. I seriously doubt it's as big a deal as people make it out to be. I'd certainly buy and use 2 or 3 year old *new and unused* tires and run the crap out of them without reservation.

--FQB

 

[LifeIsGood]

A-men my viper brethren. I wouldn't mind a DOT date being up to a year old, but if it's over that I want to know it before I put the money down.

 

[TowDawg]

When I bought my 06 Coupe BRAND NEW, 2 of the tires were from '04 and 2 from '05 -- car was built in Feb 06. Should I have returned the car because the tires were old ?

As long as the tires are stored in a fairly well controlled climate I challenge anyone to drive a new and an old set and be able to tell the difference.

I see this with most manufactures and in many tire sizes besides just the ones the Viper uses. I seriously doubt it's as big a deal as people make it out to be. I'd certainly buy and use 2 or 3 year old *new and unused* tires and run the crap out of them without reservation.

--FQB

On a DD, yes, I agree with you. You will more than likely wear the tires out before you notice much difference. The problem with here is that most people only put a few thousand miles per year on their Viper. That means you are likely going to run up on the problem of old tires before you run them out of tread. Loosing a couple of years in this situation *****.

 

[Camfab]

Hey quick question.

Does Michelin bring 3yr old tires to LeMans? Based on the expert advice they should be able to run six year old tires right?

 

[canadian venom]

Everyone remember the f1 race at Indianapolis in 2005?

All teams running with Michelin tires did not participate the race because the tires couldn't stand the banking at high speed.... that says a lot....

 

[eucharistos]

good thread

 

[pure zen]

Everyone remember the f1 race at Indianapolis in 2005?

All teams running with Michelin tires did not participate the race because the tires couldn't stand the banking at high speed.... that says a lot....

c/venom,, good post. For those who don't remember or know:


World-class Formula 1 Fiasco at Indianapolis - Column - Auto Reviews - Car and Driver

 

[LifeIsGood]

This whole deal is also eerily similiar to all those Tobacco CEOs that went before congress and swore that 'I believe that nicotine is not addictive.' We all know the true facts now...

Newest Graphic Health Warnings for Cigarette Packages and Advertisements:

WARNING: Cigarettes are addictive.
WARNING: Tobacco smoke can harm your children.
WARNING: Cigarettes cause fatal lung disease.
WARNING: Cigarettes cause cancer.
WARNING: Cigarettes cause strokes and heart disease.
WARNING: Smoking during pregnancy can harm your baby.
WARNING: Smoking can kill you.
WARNING: Tobacco smoke causes fatal lung disease in nonsmokers.
WARNING: Quitting smoking now greatly reduces serious risks to your health.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that 3 year old tires aren't the same as new tires. Again, my opinion is that they are still safe and have great performance, but not the same as new.

 

[jmillsUT28]

I bought a set of NEW tires to find out that they were 3 years old too! Was not happy at all spending $1k or more for tires that are this old. Was told there was no problem with them. I thought the lack of traction was the 767rwhp but maybe it was the 3 year old NEW tires... lol Say we will never know. But next time when I buy NEW tires I will only accept NEW tires that are less than 1 year old. Just saying.

 

[fqberful]

Everyone remember the f1 race at Indianapolis in 2005?

All teams running with Michelin tires did not participate the race because the tires couldn't stand the banking at high speed.... that says a lot....

And those tires have exactly how much in common with street tires ? Hmmm ? Answer ZERO beyond being round and not metallic. And yes, team Ferrari put on a clinic while everyone else sat in the pits.

--FQB

 

[JonB]

Pass Tech Where?

First off, it is a GREAT thing that Viper Owners are paying attention to their rubber.
And old tires, expecially. But NEW, RECENT STOCK, as indicated by every manufacturer and association, is not to be dismissed. It is a bit of a red herring. TireRack tests of properly-stored rubber has shown that new, stored street tires lose approximately 2% of their new traction per year while in NEW STORAGE. So a 2-3 year old New tire is 94-96% as fresh as as a new-new tire right out of the mold.

But in the real world of trans-continental public distribution, one cannot expect to get an out-of-mold warm tire unless you are a professional race team!

Steve brings up a possible valid 'tech' issue only for rare, specific, "public road" high speed, long distance venues, like One Lap.....or others in the "unlimited" open road classes. I do NOT know of any HPDE event, including Viper-Days, SCCA, ICSCC, NARRA, DVC, etc, that techs your tires based on manufacter date. And the "open road" events do accept proofs from TireRack, PartsRack, and others, that New Old Stock can be exempted / accepted for the rare events that do ask for Mfr Dates.

In general, tires at HPDEs are teched for equal and proper inflation, tread depth, and side-wall checking issues, but NOT mfr dates.

I was concerned because of the Run Craps I am taking off are from 08 and hard as rock and yes they have probably 2K miles on them and have been on the car, I get that, and I do trust the manu. thats why I called them! Do you know for certain that they will pass tech? I will probably have these tires on for 2 yrs and then change due to UV exposure, heat, etc. And if there is a certain timeframe they have to be in to go on a track then I will need to change if this is false I am going to be installing them to avoid hassle of re-shipping etc.. but better to find out now then later,
Also we are upset that this is not ADVERTISED and you cannot tell me that, that tire is 100% maybe 99.9 maybe 95% regardless we purchased what we believed would be NEW tires not 2.5 yr old shelf overstock. There should be options and price difference for these situations and you cannot say this is not a legitimate argument. If you bought a new car with 0 miles and found out it was an 08 model but the dealer said its been stored properly and they would recognize it as an 11 I think you would have an issue with that....even if this is on a smaller scale.

 

[ViperGTS]

I saw 5.5 year old "new" tires (run flats, by the way) on a SRT10 Viper - sold by the (s)dealership who crashed my RT/10 and telling everybody (when I recognized it and pointed it out to the owner of the Viper) that the tires have been stored well and are LIKE NEW...

P.S.: tire dealers should know that more and more owners pay attention and they should refuse to sell "old" ... may be hard to do for them but the food chain is the way it is.

 

[Garron]

Here is the responce to my letter

Hello Garrett,



Thank you for your email. We welcome the opportunity to serve you.



It is impossible to predict how long tires will last. Geographic conditions, environment, how often the vehicle is used, and tire maintenance are just a few variables that will affect the service life of a tire. It is recommended to have the tires inspected regularly by an authorized tire dealer for signs of cracking in the sidewall or the tread. Tires that are 5 years old or older should be inspected annually. Tires that have been in service for more than 10 years should be replaced. This would also include the spare.


The Michelin Passenger and Light Truck Tire Limited warranty covers defects in material workmanship for up to 2/32 unusable tires or 6 years which ever comes first. Without proof of purchase, the DOT number will be used.



The dealers that sell our products are independent dealer, Michelin does not set the dealers pricing on the tires they sell.


We appreciate your business and thank you for choosing Michelin.

It is our goal to ensure that your issue has been resolved or your question answered to your satisfaction. If we can assist you further, please respond to this email or call us at 1-888-871-4444 (toll free) between 8:00AM and 8:00PM Eastern Time Monday through Friday or between 8:30AM and 4:30PM Eastern Time on Saturday.

Sincerely,

Colesta Carr
Consumer Care Department
Certified Michelin Product Expert

PS: It's important that you get all the safety-related materials that come with the purchase of new Michelin passenger and light truck tires. If you did not receive a warranty book, you can download one at www.michelinman.ca/warranty/. If you did not register your tires, please take a moment to do so at Car and Light Truck Tire - Michelin. Registering your tires is easy and takes just a minute.

 

[TI3VOM]

Pass Tech Where?

First off, it is a GREAT thing that Viper Owners are paying attention to their rubber.
And old tires, expecially. But NEW, RECENT STOCK, as indicated by every manufacturer and association, is not to be dismissed. It is a bit of a red herring. TireRack tests of properly-stored rubber has shown that new, stored street tires lose approximately 2% of their new traction per year while in NEW STORAGE. So a 2-3 year old New tire is 94-96% as fresh as as a new-new tire right out of the mold.

But in the real world of trans-continental public distribution, one cannot expect to get an out-of-mold warm tire unless you are a professional race team!

Steve brings up a possible valid 'tech' issue only for rare, specific, "public road" high speed, long distance venues, like One Lap.....or others in the "unlimited" open road classes. I do NOT know of any HPDE event, including Viper-Days, SCCA, ICSCC, NARRA, DVC, etc, that techs your tires based on manufacter date. And the "open road" events do accept proofs from TireRack, PartsRack, and others, that New Old Stock can be exempted / accepted for the rare events that do ask for Mfr Dates.

In general, tires at HPDEs are teched for equal and proper inflation, tread depth, and side-wall checking issues, but NOT mfr dates.

Thanks for the information Jon! If this works out to me keeping the tires I have (Which it probably will) I will definitely keep the receipt/proof in the glove box for these instances. I am still going to fight for a little discount though . I will let you know how I make out.

 

[JohnnyBravo]

And REALLY finally: If you put any stock in performance tire tests, you would not likely have bought nittos...... Owners generally buy those for low price, or oversize-wheel availabilty, or tread appeal. Not for real, tested, dry driving performace vs PS2 or Kumho. But ANYTHING is better than hard, old, used tires that have been driven for several years

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you on your opinion on the Nittos.

I love my Nittos. They provide incredible traction, especially in a straight line. My car makes over 880 rwhp on its pump gas tune and upwards of 950 rwhp with a little race fuel thrown in. So I know a little bit about testing the limits of traction. Kevin at Underground Racing took several sets of wheels to the track, each with different tires and ran them all back to back to back over and over again to see which tires were best in the quarter. The Nittos were number one in 19 and 20 inch sizes. He will not let his blower or twin turbo cars leave without them. It's too dangerous to turn people loose with 1000+ rwhp and crappy tires. He won't even run ps2's anymore, if I recall correctly.

I am extremely pleased with my Invo's. They're sticky, they're quiet, they handle well with no sidewall roll and they do well in the rain. In fact, I believe Nine Ball ran ps2's and Nittos on road courses in his 06 Coupe and I recall him saying the Nittos, although a little noisier, turned consistently better lap times.

I'm going to guess that you probably don't sell Nittos. I could be wrong. But generally, the only time I see a vendor just outright bash another brand of something, including the people who bought them, is because they don't carry it. I didn't buy Nittos based on price. I bought them based on reviews from people in the real world who can afford anything they want. And I couldn't be happier with them.

 

[JonB]

Hey quick question. Does Michelin bring 3yr old tires to LeMans? Based on the expert advice they should be able to run six year old tires right?

Your thinking cap is puffing! The answer, and reason, is:

NO

Why? Because pure race slicks are super light, super-soft, and degrade MUCH faster than street tires, which are (usually) designed for road hazard protections and 20K mile + endurance. And race tires in the Pros are often built for track-specific surfaces, and temperatures, not steet applications.

Apples-pommegranites comparo. The question is a school of red herrings!

 

[JonB]

Johnny, they have excellent straight-line traction. No Doubt. Fits your needs to a T. But those who have run them in Road Course or Auto-X, and have seat-time to compare, (like Car and Driver) say they dont corner well at all. #10 of 11 tested. But a Good straight line tire! Their distribution system leaves a LOT to be desired too.....

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you on your opinion on the Nittos.

I love my Nittos. They provide incredible traction, especially in a straight line. My car makes over 880 rwhp on its pump gas tune and upwards of 950 rwhp with a little race fuel thrown in. So I know a little bit about testing the limits of traction. Kevin at Underground Racing took several sets of wheels to the track, each with different tires and ran them all back to back to back over and over again to see which tires were best in the quarter. The Nittos were number one in 19 and 20 inch sizes. He will not let his blower or twin turbo cars leave without them. It's too dangerous to turn people loose with 1000+ rwhp and crappy tires. He won't even run ps2's anymore, if I recall correctly.

I am extremely pleased with my Invo's. They're sticky, they're quiet, they handle well with no sidewall roll and they do well in the rain. In fact, I believe Nine Ball ran ps2's and Nittos on road courses in his 06 Coupe and I recall him saying the Nittos, although a little noisier, turned consistently better lap times.

I'm going to guess that you probably don't sell Nittos. I could be wrong. But generally, the only time I see a vendor just outright bash another brand of something, including the people who bought them, is because they don't carry it. I didn't buy Nittos based on price. I bought them based on reviews from people in the real world who can afford anything they want. And I couldn't be happier with them.