New Yorks new Supercharged Creampuff

[Mike Brunton]

8psi is adding 54% more air. How can you add 76% more horsepower with 54% more air?

That's the part I don't get. Even if the system was 100% efficient, is that possible?

Ben's 28RWHP/psi number takes supercharger drive losses into account. Torquemonsters numbers DO NOT take supercharger losses into account. I've heard they can be significant (5% easily if not 10% but I could be wrong).

I am curious to hear from the more knowledgeable guys how this is even possible???

 

[Doug Supercharged Vipers]

Sunday - Hello everyone!

Has anyone seen my friend Paolo, you know, the guy with the beautiful wife with the heart of gold? The one that used to call, shoot the breeze and stopped by my shop most recently to talk about everything BUT business ? I sure miss that guy ! Would somebody tell him I send my Warmest Regards and if we think he's a little nutty now wait till he gets his Heffner Supercharged Beast..... non of us will be safe .

Ps. And tell him Ben Treynor really is a terrific guy!

And on another note:
Forget the number we see on our boost gauges, they should be interpreted as a "reference number" only, a measurement of intake restriction as per that individual vehicle. Think about it - non of us are silly enough to believe the little boost gauges are equivalent to a dynomometer, and even so, a dynomometer can also be referenced as an "egomometer." We shouldn't take anything for granted because there are over a zillion variables that effect boost-to-horsepower equational gains. Five different tuners may utilize a different boost/hp strategy that best suits their own independent forced induction system. Nonetheless, all may report substantial horsepower gains with that system.

I commend all the tuners who have devoted so much of their time, money and energy to develop a personalized forced induction system to cater to all of those on a quest for full time reliable performance and excellent customer service. Contrary to some beliefs, this is in no way an easy business and I personally find it not to be an extremely profitable one either. Customer service, custom fabrication and quality consume an insurmountable amount of time and costs but the profit from success outweighs any monetary returns - It truly is a labor of love for all of us.

I'm always open for suggestions from everybody. But please, if you have any questions or anything you may not be sure of feel free to respond appropriately, I would hate for anyone lose confidence in us that may not understand our goals and objectives.

Thanks for reading,
Doug

 

[Doug Supercharged Vipers]

Mike -

Think more in terms of CFM and efficiency, psi is more of a byproduct.

Let's chat again sometime soon!
Doug

 

[RedGTS]

Well, now we know 1) Doug is a nice guy (no news there) and 2) he's not going to get into a technical discussion of the boost/hp issue lest he disclose his trade secrets. Can't say as I blame him, but unless his somewhat cryptic reference to boost gauges means that 8 lbs indicated might really be 11 lbs, I still don't see how 8 lbs produces that much hp.

 

[MES]

PSI does not equal HP. I've been told by Supra guys that they can take the stock twins and run 16 psi and get 450 rwhp yet bolt on a single larger turbo run 16 psi and get 600 rwhp (just round numbers). Same psi but much more HP it's the flow of the turbo, in this case a supercharger, that makes the difference. I can't claim to know a lot about these matters but that would seem to apply here.

BTW great dyno numbers!!

 

[Gerald]

I'm sure 8lbs of boost isn't really 11 lbs of boost.. or 9 or 10, or 30

 

[Gerald]

Oh OK, I'll comment on the HP/PSI question

First of all, the 760 at the end is a slight anomaly from the dyno. It's really leveled out at 740 at the top end, so let's call it 740.

So... at 8 PSI, we have 740 / (14.7 + 8) = 32.6 HP / PSI. That's pretty darn healthy - about 4 HP/PSI more than I would expect. Some of it may be due to higher compression ratio and lighter pistons; the only other thing I can think of is that perhaps Doug's able to run more timing advance because his A/F tuning is dead on and dead stable. I can't even blame correction factor, because it was so hot when the runs were made.

I can't wait to see what Doug can do with a '03!

Ben, I was figuring it a little differently. Assuming the creampuff makes 420-430 RWHP w/highflow cats and cat back(I do not think it could be higher as they do not make much more than that with headers). 736RWHP - 430RWHP = 306RWHP gain from the 7 PSI. 306/7 = 43.7 RWHP/PSI.

Your example of 740/22.7 does not take into account the power the engine was making before the addition of the boost.

I asked you guys if this type of gains seen on the cast piston car of this post would translate to a forged piston application, nobody has answered yet. Maybe you all missed my question. ==> My point is that if it does and should, then 15 PSI should yield 655.5 RWHP gain + the RWHP of the built motor. So say it is 500 RWHP to start: add the 655.5 RWHP gain = 1155.5 RWHP. Say there will be some diminishing marginal returns to the increasing of the boost to 15 PSI from 7 PSI(should still be way higher than what you guys have made with the most recent posting of dyno sheets). ==>If this is the case, you and Dr. Roof and Gerald and the whole bunch should be sending your cars back to Doug for the new technology so I can have some competition!

Paolo, peak HP numbers are a totally different ballgame as we've seen in some past dyno sheets. Just like many of those 700rwhp Supras get eaten alive by 500 hp vipers. And I'm working on sending my car back too. Just gotta save those [******] pennies.

Can't wait until you get your rocket back so you can do some real time high speed tests! YOu'll have to change you speedometer to register up to 235.6874832 and 1/54th

 

[Torquemonster]

Looks like you guys have had an interesting weekend on this thread!

Mike - you are 100% correct my formula does not take into account losses - I think I made that clear - the reason is no two tuner setups or custom setups for that matter are the same - as Doug so eloquently pointed out.

The boost formula is a theoretical one - and actual results depend upon how much CFM gets forced in and at what temp (partly a function of blower size and efficiency), what timing is possible and correct and stable A/F ratios. That is a large number of variables so the possible permetations are impossibly large to project into a "simple formula".

Doug may not have gotten technical - but he actually said a whole lot. Pumping excess boost into a small blower creates heat not power as compared to pumping less boost through a bigger blower that is running efficiently.

In summary - why do you guys have such a problem believing Doug's dyno and that 8lb was all that was needed? He obviously knows how to get CFM in and that has far more to do with hp than boost. He is onto it. Look at the area under the curve on the DLM dyno graph - that means a mile more than peak power!

I think Dougs CFM and boost comments summed it up better than any of us have. Specifications don't mean a lot unless part of an entire package. Maybe all we need to know has already been said and if there are some things beyond that - then we have to earn the right to know - e.g.- by being a customer.

 

[Paolo Castellano]

Paolo, i saw your car this weekend, your license plate had me rolling on the floor laughing, very clever

RedSnakeGTS, Thanks for the compliment! I make sure I pull in front of all Ferraris on the HWY and street so they can read it! Then I slow down to see if they got it! The look on their faces after the spanking is priceless!

 

[treynor]

OT, but let's see a pic of Paolo's license plate!

 

[Paolo Castellano]

Sunday - Hello everyone!

Has anyone seen my friend Paolo, you know, the guy with the beautiful wife with the heart of gold? The one that used to call, shoot the breeze and stopped by my shop most recently to talk about everything BUT business ? I sure miss that guy ! Would somebody tell him I send my Warmest Regards and if we think he's a little nutty now wait till he gets his Heffner Supercharged Beast..... non of us will be safe .

Ps. And tell him Ben Treynor really is a terrific guy!

And on another note:
Forget the number we see on our boost gauges, they should be interpreted as a "reference number" only, a measurement of intake restriction as per that individual vehicle. Think about it - non of us are silly enough to believe the little boost gauges are equivalent to a dynomometer, and even so, a dynomometer can also be referenced as an "egomometer." We shouldn't take anything for granted because there are over a zillion variables that effect boost-to-horsepower equational gains. Five different tuners may utilize a different boost/hp strategy that best suits their own independent forced induction system. Nonetheless, all may report substantial horsepower gains with that system.

I commend all the tuners who have devoted so much of their time, money and energy to develop a personalized forced induction system to cater to all of those on a quest for full time reliable performance and excellent customer service. Contrary to some beliefs, this is in no way an easy business and I personally find it not to be an extremely profitable one either. Customer service, custom fabrication and quality consume an insurmountable amount of time and costs but the profit from success outweighs any monetary returns - It truly is a labor of love for all of us.

I'm always open for suggestions from everybody. But please, if you have any questions or anything you may not be sure of feel free to respond appropriately, I would hate for anyone lose confidence in us that may not understand our goals and objectives.

Thanks for reading,
Doug

Doug, the nutty coefficient has gone way up lately. Waiting for the car is part of it for me. The other part is the way I think everybody is going about posting the information.

There is quite a bit of a development in the supercharger information that has been posted in the last few years on this site. A lot is exciting and Viper specific, some is general physical laws of nature kinds of stuff regarding any forced induction application.

Doug, you have always been very knowlegeable and helpful in many more ways than just Viper related discussions. I appreciate every bit of your input and advice. As you can see from my posts I have nothing but respect for you and your work and cars. I never have a problem with you, in discussions you have always been the best. Some of your customers, on the other hand rub me the wrong way from time to time.

I also know Ben Treynor is one heck of a nice guy and am sure we will never have a problem again on this board. I think we all need to get together and run the cars in more than just the 1/4 mile.


As far as this whole thread and RWHP/LB boost is concerned, nobody has even mentioned that a different, larger blower could run way more CFM ie make way more power and register less boost(like Supras, bigger turbo more lag/etc...). I know this is not the case with the two recent cast piston cars you have just completed as is evident by the dyno sheet that show the power seems to be coming on in the usual range. I would say your application for these two recent cars makes relatively slightly more HP and relatively slightly less torque than what I have observed from your systems in the past.

I also do not think anybody is losing any confidence in anybody, I just think the facts need to be presented by a knowlegeable person in a certain light. I do not think it is appropriate Gerald posts my name saying it was only 7 PSI when in the previous post I asked how much boost you were running in Fishtail's car. I am curious and have learned a lot from reading every supercharger post probably ever written on this board. Believe me, there is not a supercharger tuner out there that has not benefitted from an increase in supercharger clientel generated from reading these posts. There is really no such thing as bad advertisement for any tuner with so many different people with some good, some bad, knowledge opinions trying to figure it all out with different budgets, HP/TQ goals, intended applications/etc... A little while back I was told by A DLM customer on a DLM post that I should not mention Jason Heffner's system/power figures in a DLM thread. Sometimes for the purposes of comparison it is natural to talk about things with which one is familiar. I respected this and hope all will do the same. I wish you guys all the best of luck and can't wait to get my car back and run around with all the supercharged guys and have a blast! I want to play nice, but sometimes some of your customers rub me the wrong way and it is hard posting back and forth on the internet between a bunch of people who really have never met face to face.

 

[Paolo Castellano]

Paolo, peak HP numbers are a totally different ballgame as we've seen in some past dyno sheets. Just like many of those 700rwhp Supras get eaten alive by 500 hp vipers. And I'm working on sending my car back too. Just gotta save those [******] pennies.

Can't wait until you get your rocket back so you can do some real time high speed tests! YOu'll have to change you speedometer to register up to 235.6874832 and 1/54th

[/QUOTE]

Gerald, I have eaten many supposed 700+ RWHP Supras with my 450 RWHP Viper!

As far as the top speed is concerned, I will have to get the tire issue then the aerodynamics taken care of to do the 235.6874832 and 1/54th MPH!

 

[Dr Roof]

Paolo, Ben, Torq

I need to go back to school to understand what you guys are saying. I have no understanding of how my car works. Maybe this winter I will study up.

So I guess I get the big dummy award of the Supercharger car owners! LOL

I am taking notes and learning as we go.

Sometimes Doug Tells me things and I am like Ok Yeah but I'm Lost in Outerspace. But I always believe he knows best!!! So I got to trust someone.

 

[Paolo Castellano]

OT, but let's see a pic of Paolo's license plate!

Here it is: Someone just showed me how to do this.

 

[Paolo Castellano]

Paolo, Ben, Torq

I need to go back to school to understand what you guys are saying. I have no understanding of how my car works. Maybe this winter I will study up.

So I guess I get the big dummy award of the Supercharger car owners! LOL

I am taking notes and learning as we go.

Sometimes Doug Tells me things and I am like Ok Yeah but I'm Lost in Outerspace. But I always believe he knows best!!! So I got to trust someone.

David, don't worry about not knowing more about supercharging! You are closer than me at this point to running a nine, you have more seat time than most supercharged guys at the track, and you have 2? Kids(I have none, but am trying,==> my wife says I am VERY trying). I am sure by the time I have 2 kids(If we ever have even one) you will know more about supercharging than I do for sure! I still hope I can run a nine before you do though.

P.S. are you doing that standing mile thing in August or what? I sent you an email about it!

One thing we are definitely tied for is having wives cool enough to let us spend all this money on these darned supercharged Vipers!

 

[RedGTS]

In summary - why do you guys have such a problem believing Doug's dyno and that 8lb was all that was needed? He obviously knows how to get CFM in and that has far more to do with hp than boost.

Speaking only for myself, the reason I'm having such a problem is because of the limitations stated in the beginning of the thread--an almost stock car with only high-flow cats and catback. If you throw ported heads, larger valves, headers, etc. into the mix, I never would have posted in this thread because that power level at that boost level wouldn't seem unusual. And yes, a larger/more efficient blower can certainly move more CFM more efficiently, but if you've still got to push it through the stock throttle bodies, heads, valves, headers, etc. those restrictions are going to create more boost, aren't they? Intercooling can lower the intake temps and allow you to make more power by running more timing advance than you otherwise could, but an intercooler as I understand it does not lower boost levels; as another restriction, it actually increases the boost level. Prior posts about some of Doug's other cars, Jason's cars, even Sean's cars that use a different kind of blower all seem to produce in the 27-29 hp per psi range, even those that do have extensive breathing mods (they just make more total power at a lower total boost level because they started out with more power n/a). In short, I remain confused (not that there's anything wrong with that).

 

[Doug Supercharged Vipers]

Paolo -
I hear you and I really appreciate your response. People whom have never met you have not had the pleasure as I have. I know your very intelligent, down to earth and have an unlimited quest for knowledge. You appreciate the elements of mechanical reasoning as do I.

After several years in the business and over three years since we supercharged our first cast piston car I've constructed many others since then and I'm feeling more confident in the longevity of the system (for cast pistons) and their ability to perform well in all different types of conditions. Part of dealing with development is failure and I'm delighted with the positive results we've had so far. There is nothing in any book that explains the amount of horsepower yielded by supercharging a V10. I used to set my limits at only 650 rwhp for cast piston cars that are totally stock. As time progressed I decided to add an aftermarket exhaust system and run a more sophisticated computer program & fuel arrangement *more aggressive fuel/timing map* without increasing the boost level. Once again the net gains have been better than expected.

If you wouldn't mind going back and referencing the above dyno chart you can see how well the cars are responding with a precisely tuned combination. Centrifugal blowers make (or should make) peak power at peak rpm because we know they are only effective with rpm and load. Please note the loss of horsepower at peak rpm is not even one percent! Our computer and fuel delivery is extremely efficient throughout the entire rpm band. The a/f is also indicative of an adequate controlled fuel delivery system.

The loss in torque is quite simple, I only dyno test vehicles at near operating temperatures to simulate average driving conditions to datalog and map a good program. Unfortunately, there is not enough air to exchange heat from the aftercooling unit to simulate conditions while the vehicle is underway. Heat soak robs torque tremendously and here in Florida the heat usually gets the best of us. The hotter the engine temps, the worse the torque numbers. It's always been that way and it only gets worse .

Best of Luck and keep in touch!
Doug

 

[Torquemonster]

RedGTS - I understand. Airflow is a funny thing. When I had my mail order speed business I got onto an aircraft aeronautics engineer that did a lot of flow testing. Through a friend we talked him into helping us with head work on small block Mopar V8's. He would flow the heads and examine the shapes etc then tell my friend where to grind, where to reshape etc. After a while, the small port 318 heads were actually cracking the sound barrier on the flowbench! The CFM was excellent for smallports, but the air speed was sensational!

On a good street 318 engine can you say "CRISP!" Those babies could really go for what they were, easily making 400hp. But it was the way they made the power more than the peak power itself. Lesson?

When airflow is forced or twisted (swirled) or sucked in an orderly motion - the affect can be out of proportion to what you get by doing big mods to an engine but have turbulent (chaotic) airflow. Engines pulse - they do not flow like gas down a pipe, so the straighter and more organised you can keep that flow - the more CFM you can pack in those cylinders. Small is sometimes best to achieve that - not always, but sometimes.

Think of cfm flowing like a bunch of arrows all supposedly going in the same direction. IN real life - some arrows will be going off in all directions, hitting something, bouncing back, some will actually be turned around and flying backwards, and some will even at times reverse direction (under reversion). Imagine if you could redirect that chaos so that the arrows swirled but stayed parallel and straight ahead? It's probably impossible to achieve perfectly due to effect of valves closing - but the closer you get to that the better the air that gets in. Somehow Doug is getting a lot of very good air into an otherwise stock longblock, and he is doing it from without, not within - I don't understand how either as I've not seen the setup - but I do believe it's a great result!

DR Roof - what you meant to say was we're all a bunch of motor nerds right?

Making hp has long been a passion of mine - driving it is yours....

Wait a minute!!!! Somehow I think you are getting the most fun!




I better do something soon to join you!

Doug - appeciate what you posted. Haven't had the privilege of talking with you yet - but I will. Keep up the good work!

 

[Fishtail]

I've been getting lots of email asking me about this car: It's NOT mine. I'm not sure who the owner is? I know the gentleman is from New York and we both have about the same mods, his car is a 2001 and mine 2002. My car has headers and his doesn't. In my honest opinion the headers didn't seem to make much difference according to my dyno sheet compared to his. I do believe the sound is better with the headers. My car is in another thread and the dyno sheet looks pretty similar. Mine seems to make just a tiny bit of power under the curve with the headers but not really all that much more .

-Lou