Nissan GTR Versus The 08 Viper

[STUGOTS]

wonder what the GTR would do with a boost bump

 

[bluestreak]

A 3.8 Twin Turbo 6 cylinder should make 600 hp easily with just an ECU depending on the flow potential of the Turbos. I say 650 or so. But I dont know it it will hold because the motor already seems to have kinks in it. Nissan do not want this car to be modded and for a very good reason (It breaks, FAST) Clutch, motor, tranny are all at big risk, and it's not exactly user friendly to fix. I bet paying for two clutches instead of one wont be cheap either.

 

[sbkim]

wonder what the GTR would do with a boost bump

If I recall, the V spec is basically the current motor with increased boost. No guesstimates on HP but I presume it will be north of 550.

As posted earlier, I am also curious to see how the other parts (eg tranny, plasma lining etc) holds up over time and increased boost.

 

[sbkim]

No one has mentioned if the car has a digital/computerized "climate control system" like my 1992 Dodge Stealth came with. How about a computer controlled stereo system like what came in my Stealth? I'd hate to think that they've added only TC and "launch control" to the '92 Stealth electronics. Wouldn't make the GTR appear to be very hi-tech if the 92 Stealth came with all the computer junk except the two aforementioned systems...

Ted

I believe climate control is computer controlled and shown on multi function display. Just more $hit to break later I guess. Funny you mentioned about Stealth, I was curious how those AWD TT monsters (including VR4) would fare against the GTR. Assuming it's heavily modified, GTR probably wouldn't have chance but I am sure GTR will hold its ground againt BPU's with higher HP - mainly due to better tranny in 0-60 and 1/4mi. I think on road track, GTR would fare much better.

 

[RTTTTed]

The new 2008 version of OBD program disallows modifications according to gov. regulations I read. I would presume it would probably allow a couple psi, but changing turbos etc. would probably requier the expensive AEM system or may not allow any mods? I read in these forums that someone has supercharged an 08 Viper? Roe or Hennnessey would know about the new OBD and it's limitations.

The OBD2 in my Stealth, however has no problem with my bigger turbos and the computer is programmable. There is also lots of 'translators' and sub computers that will allow any modifications to be made.

GTR???

Ted

 

[sbkim]

How about 11.1 with ECU mod?

Haltech GT-R Runs 11.1 @ 124mph in Stock Trim w/Haltech ECU

 

[RTTTTed]

Not sure that's any proof of anything. Different car that doesn't meet North American OBD rules.

Also may have bigger turbos like the Stealth R/T TT (came with 13Gs except for North America got 9Bs). Changing the Stealth to 13Gs was the main source of my 200hp gain.

We could also assume that the boost control is in the computer and the car comes with max boost since they adjusted timing AND fuel parameters. I would also assume race turbos instead of stock street turbos since the write up says "Stock Trim", not STOCK. So consider that GTR as highly modified since it has huge money spent on reworking the ECU which may not be a viable option for the North American car.

I'm not saying that a GTR can't be made faster than a STOCK Viper, but that stock it costs the same, has puny tires and too little hp to be comparable to a stock Gen 2, 3 or 4 Viper, even under the 112mph speed limit stated earlier in the thread.

I can't understand why anyone would even try to compare a 112mph car to a 200+mph car???

Modified to modified ... a TT turbo Viper gets 1-2,000 rwhp. The GTR?

They just don't belong on the same forum because the Viper was designed as the "Ultimate no-frills sportscar" and the GTR was designed as a Street machine. Perhaps it was designed to be a cheapo BMW, Audi, Mercedes? It certainly can't compare with an 08 Viper in any way, except for price.

Ted

 

[RTTTTed]

When I enter my Viper in a car show and it's the only Viper there, I know I'm taking home the 1st place trophy.

If I had a GTR and entered it I know there would be about 10 ricers there taking the trophy home before the GTR.

Not comparable. Think of the GTR as a fast on rainy days or snow racer as that's where it would beat the Viper, just like my Stealth does. Although my Stealth compares well to a GTR (same weight, hp, AWD and hp) it doesn't compare to a good Viper. The hp delivery doesn't compare to the hp delivery of a V10 at all.

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But, my Stealth is definitely fastest during winter, while the Viper is parked. That's why I plan to keep the Stealth, because it does the 'normal' things that a Viper can't do well.

Ted

 

[sbkim]

You asked whether GTR can be modded - you prob got caught up on rumors that ECU couldn't be cracked. My point is that GTR can be modded as seen in link above. 112 vs 200?? Again, need to do more research. There is no speed limiter in US spec. Stealth comparable to GTR...umm ok - agreed both have 4 tires, 2 door, and couple turbos.

I don't disagree with comments about how GTR and Viper are not comparable. Both have supercar performance but delivery is very different. Prices are not even comparable... unless pricing is different in CA.

 

[Vip23er]

Maybe I am biased since I have a 2003 Viper, but am I the only one who is tired of all these manufacturers putting turbos on cars and then saying they can compete with a Viper...and even a C6 ZO6. If you put a twin turbo in a Kia, it would go fast. I still prefer pure american muscle over a turbocharged wannabe. Now, that is not to be said that I dont love the turbocharged Vipers, but that is a different story. There, they are taking an excellent performing car and making it better. In the case of the GTR, the car would be nothing without the twin turbos.

 

[sbkim]

Vip23er - agreed GTR certainly would be nothing without the twin turbos. Certainly, Viper wouldn't be viper without that V10 either - but at least it looks like a total bad a$$.

 

[STUGOTS]

factory turbo is ALMOST cheating, "lets get a POS 2.2L engine and crank 19 Lbs of boost through it, WOAHHHH (in Keanu Reeves voice) Festus I think we got us a super car here"

hell I can put a turbo on my lawnmower and make it rip so what?

 

[Vipermann]

How about 11.1 with ECU mod?

Haltech GT-R Runs 11.1 @ 124mph in Stock Trim w/Haltech ECU

Honestly ...who cares? I mean, if a car runs a quick 1/4 mile due to outstanding awd traction at launch, but finishes a lap or more behind on even a short road course race, what does that prove? really?

Coming out of a turn, the (stock) Viper blows away / pulls away from the GT-R.

And talk about mods, any ECU tweaked GT-R, is twice as stressed as any stock Viper and thus more likely to break, and still more stressed, even after a Viper is modded. At that point (against a modded Viper) the GT-R is good for nothing but speed-controlled pace car duty ...or otherwise doesn't belong on the same track.

 

[bluestreak]

I'm a bit confused at some of the comments here. HP is HP (unless it's nos and you have to refill it). Turbos have made their way into all the various forms of major racing and soon turbo will be the only way to go as turbo deisel technology from racing makes it's way into street cars and CAFE laws continue to grow.

Using forced induction allows similar hp output from smaller packages. Part of the reason the Viper is so heavy for a two seater sports car is because of the gigantic V10. There is no perfect way to make power, the perfection comes in making the power efficient and putting the power on the pavement.

The Viper doesnt need any justification by making up reasons to not like the other cars. And this is coming from someone who dislikes the GT-R more than anyone here by far. But moreso because of rigged magazine articles and overhype.

But yes it is more likely to break, as the piston rings have already been found to be weak, and the clutch prone to failure with added power. So owners will have fun replacing two clutches in a complex network of gadgets, I can imagine the cost on that will be pretty crazy considering there will only be a limited amount of GT-R's so demand for the parts will be low and the price HIGH. Also, I dont think the added hp will be very friendly for launch control before the diff or tranny breaks completely as they've been having problems with that too.


Nissan has a good rep for build quality, but that's for compacts, sedans and suv's, I doubt this car will hold up like cars that are built like tanks (Viper, Porsche).

 

[RTTTTed]

Actually, hp isn't hp.

My Stealth has high rpm hp while my Viper has early hp and max torque off idle with the Positive Displacement supercharger. Although the Stealth has 500hp the power curve starts slowly and builds until it peaks about 6500rpm. My Viper makes unbelievable torque and all you feel is full throttle whenever you hit the gas. No rpm hp power differential can be felt at different rpms. Hit the throttle and hang on (try to keep the nose pointed forward).

To me a supercar is a mobile sculpture that not only looks spectacular, but is built to perform after 100mph. Before the introduction of the Viper they were called 'exotic' cars because they were all built in Europe. With the Viper GM actually got serious about performance and started chasing the Viper. Thanks to that North America had 2 supercars. Then came the S7, Venom 1000 and the Lingenfelter 1000hp vette. North America now builds a ton of supercars that set the world standard on performance.

Not sure how many Veyrons were built, but there's more Hennessey Venom 1000s out there with comparable performance at less than 1/6th the price. Try that with a ricer.

GTR 1000??? Never gonna happen. Not a supercar.

Ted

 

[RTTTTed]

You asked whether GTR can be modded - you prob got caught up on rumors that ECU couldn't be cracked. My point is that GTR can be modded as seen in link above. 112 vs 200?? Again, need to do more research. There is no speed limiter in US spec. Stealth comparable to GTR...umm ok - agreed both have 4 tires, 2 door, and couple turbos.
QUOTE]

I know the ECU can be 'cracked', but it's beyond everyone except a few. Installing an AEM would probably be cheaper and easier. My point was that like the 08 Venom controller, it's not easy or cheap and may take a couple years before it becomes available to the public (since it's illegal).

Stealth and GTR similarities? Both TTs, both about 3L, both quad cammed V6s, both have AWD and similar tire size, both have Electronic suspensions, both have a tiny/useless backseat, 6spd, computerized heaters, etc.

Ted

 

[bluestreak]

That's exactly why I said efficient power. You refer to your stealth a lot, but that is not a quality hp/tq curve guage. That's 20 something year old technology. And modded at that. Not only that but it depends on what you are using it for. High torque cars are harder to drive on the road course. That's why most race cars strive for higher rev limit, and less torque or shorter gearing to spread the power out.

Supercar status has been elevated, Veyron, CGT, Zonda, Enzo, S7 come to mind. Everyone is making 500 hp+ now and wanting to be called a supercar. But IMO you have to have something extra special to be that. Everybody wants to call everything a supercar these days. And even what used to be considered supercars arent very super anymore as there are cars much less expensive that will hand their behinds to them.

There will be a 1000 hp GT-R, you can count on that. It wont be for a while because the tranny, diff, clutch, and motor will all have to be designed to support it, and that will take a while. But it will happen.

And modability to 1000 hp has nothing to do with a car being a supercar. There are 1000 hp Evo's and C5 corvettes etc and they are nothing of a supercar.

 

[RTTTTed]

That's exactly why I said efficient power. You refer to your stealth a lot, but that is not a quality hp/tq curve guage. That's 20 something year old technology. And modded at that. Not only that but it depends on what you are using it for. High torque cars are harder to drive on the road course. That's why most race cars strive for higher rev limit, and less torque or shorter gearing to spread the power out.

Supercar status has been elevated, Veyron, CGT, Zonda, Enzo, S7 come to mind. Everyone is making 500 hp+ now and wanting to be called a supercar. But IMO you have to have something extra special to be that. Everybody wants to call everything a supercar these days. And even what used to be considered supercars arent very super anymore as there are cars much less expensive that will hand their behinds to them.

There will be a 1000 hp GT-R, you can count on that. It wont be for a while because the tranny, diff, clutch, and motor will all have to be designed to support it, and that will take a while. But it will happen.

And modability to 1000 hp has nothing to do with a car being a supercar. There are 1000 hp Evo's and C5 corvettes etc and they are nothing of a supercar.

I disagree.

My Stealth has been 'upgraded' more than modified. It has the factory spec turbos instead of the North American downgrades, higher boost and a 3rd injections system with replacement exhaust, but it had 7psi stock and I'ver merely upgraded the boost levels to what's probably the same as what the GTR has (14). It'll go to 19, but with race gas - which I don't have. Race shocks instead of the stock electronic suspension to improve the performance. Since I like a stiff ride I don't need the 'bandaid' ECS to soften the bumps on the road.

Sounds like youre saying that the Viper is a slow car on the track with all it's torque and 3.08 gearing?

Yes, the Viper keeps 'upping the bar' for supercar performance, doesn't it? It's probably why the ZR1, the 19(?) Enzos and Porsches GT3 were designed.

You gotta love the Viper. I wonder if anyone will design a car specifically to beat the GTR? Guess not ... since there's so many cars that already kick its ass. Maybe a new AWD Supra? As you said, "Everyone is making 500 hp+ now and wanting to be called a supercar." The GTR doesn't make the wannabe 500+hp.

The GTR amy be a great DD, like my Stealth is for me, but I bought a sc Viper because a Z06 passed me about 100mph when I raced it. That'll never happen again.

Ted

 

[HI-NOS-Viper]

I'm a bit confused at some of the comments here. HP is HP (unless it's nos and you have to refill it). Turbos have made their way into all the various forms of major racing and soon turbo will be the only way to go as turbo deisel technology from racing makes it's way into street cars and CAFE laws continue to grow.

Using forced induction allows similar hp output from smaller packages. Part of the reason the Viper is so heavy for a two seater sports car is because of the gigantic V10. There is no perfect way to make power, the perfection comes in making the power efficient and putting the power on the pavement.

The Viper doesnt need any justification by making up reasons to not like the other cars. And this is coming from someone who dislikes the GT-R more than anyone here by far. But moreso because of rigged magazine articles and overhype.

But yes it is more likely to break, as the piston rings have already been found to be weak, and the clutch prone to failure with added power. So owners will have fun replacing two clutches in a complex network of gadgets, I can imagine the cost on that will be pretty crazy considering there will only be a limited amount of GT-R's so demand for the parts will be low and the price HIGH. Also, I dont think the added hp will be very friendly for launch control before the diff or tranny breaks completely as they've been having problems with that too.


Nissan has a good rep for build quality, but that's for compacts, sedans and suv's, I doubt this car will hold up like cars that are built like tanks (Viper, Porsche).

Actually you are wrong in two areas. I am not going to go into detail but do know turbo HP is different than NA HP. For one it takes time for boost to take effect. NA power is always there. Also even though as technology improves, yes its less of an issue, but still an issue, heatsoak from forced indiction effects engine power eventually whether it is after 5 or 10 laps, point is it does effect the power compared to NA. That is all I am going to say. I have a turbo Car and know the difference, and am not just talking about a low HP Turbo car. How well would a nascar turbo car fair compared to a NA nascar car? No contest. And the point is Dodge has been able to make the best track NA track car to prove this. We will ultimately see when the ZR1 hits the track, but I am not talking the 1/4, but the road course.

 

[bluestreak]

I disagree.

My Stealth has been 'upgraded' more than modified. It has the factory spec turbos instead of the North American downgrades, higher boost and a 3rd injections system with replacement exhaust, but it had 7psi stock and I'ver merely upgraded the boost levels to what's probably the same as what the GTR has (14). It'll go to 19, but with race gas - which I don't have. Race shocks instead of the stock electronic suspension to improve the performance. Since I like a stiff ride I don't need the 'bandaid' ECS to soften the bumps on the road.

Sounds like youre saying that the Viper is a slow car on the track with all it's torque and 3.08 gearing?

Yes, the Viper keeps 'upping the bar' for supercar performance, doesn't it? It's probably why the ZR1, the 19(?) Enzos and Porsches GT3 were designed.

You gotta love the Viper. I wonder if anyone will design a car specifically to beat the GTR? Guess not ... since there's so many cars that already kick its ass. Maybe a new AWD Supra? As you said, "Everyone is making 500 hp+ now and wanting to be called a supercar." The GTR doesn't make the wannabe 500+hp.

The GTR amy be a great DD, like my Stealth is for me, but I bought a sc Viper because a Z06 passed me about 100mph when I raced it. That'll never happen again.

Ted

You are only making my point more valid. If you increase boost on a stock turbo system, there are bound to be some other areas that need addressing, most stock BOV's,DV's turbo hoses, wastegates etc are designed for the stock power, so when you go and up the boost, something will start to fail or not operate as designed and the hp application will be affected, this goes for ALL turbo cars, most have wastegates that will crack open prematurely bleeding boost, which kills torque, slows throttle response and messes up the curve. So chances are your mods made the hp curve worse than it was stock even though you increased the hp.

Not only that but like I said, that is EXTRA OLD technology.

How does what I said translate to a Viper being slow on the track? Harder to drive doesnt mean slow. GT3's are hard to drive too, because it's hard to keep them in the powerband there in lying the challenge with high revs and low torque. F1 cars for example have 800 hp and 200+ torque. More torque is needed on closed wheel cars to accelerate the mass and because there is more reliance on mechanical grip rather than aero grip, but still low torque is the preffered method.

Actually you are wrong in two areas. I am not going to go into detail but do know turbo HP is different than NA HP. For one it takes time for boost to take effect. NA power is always there. Also even though as technology improves, yes its less of an issue, but still an issue, heatsoak from forced indiction effects engine power eventually whether it is after 5 or 10 laps, point is it does effect the power compared to NA. That is all I am going to say. I have a turbo Car and know the difference, and am not just talking about a low HP Turbo car. How well would a nascar turbo car fair compared to a NA nascar car? No contest. And the point is Dodge has been able to make the best track NA track car to prove this. We will ultimately see when the ZR1 hits the track, but I am not talking the 1/4, but the road course.

I know NA hp is different. My comment was soley directed at people that say Turbo and FI is cheating. That doesnt make any sense. Heatsoak can be dealt with, and good ones dont soak badly, and in fact NA motors can heat soak just as bad and power is limited with NA, whereas Turbo power is relatively unlimited. Yes NA has better throttle response, but on a road course where the goal is to maintain high rpm's it's not much of an issue for a good turbo system. Both have there advantages and disadvantages. Many racing sanctions penalize turbo's because it's easy to cheat by dialing boost up and down, but that doesnt mean it's not as formidable as NA.

Dodge has a V10, they dont need Turbo's, but when CAFE starts kicking in ********, you should expect to see one, turbo motors are cleaner and more efficient, while still making the power of big bore NA motors. Put similar downforce numbers on a ZR-1 and the ACR would have it's hands full to say the least, so a direct comparison isnt exactly being made because the ACR has a FAR FAR superior aero dynamic advantage. I personally dont like superchargers because they overheat more than anything and the belt issues are the worst, so you wont get much arguement there. But turbos have graced F1, Indy, Lemans, FIA, ALMS and several other forms of racing, but there are just more parts to break, more weight added to the car, and more ways to cheat which is why it's not more common. There is no better or worse, Turbo and NA are both great for racing.

 

[RTTTTed]

This thread has gone all over the place since it was originally about the GTR vs Viper. That's good, because this is worse than the ZR1 beats Viper arguement. There' even a comment that the GTR beats a Veyron. Unrealistic.

Turbos are ancient technology and so are superchargers. They've been refined by technology that's all. Auto climate control systems came out in Chrysler Imperials in the 50's. I believe the Stealth was the first to come out with DIGITAL climate control.

Although electronic ignition systems came standard on cars by the early '70's I believe the Chrysler Wraith/M4S prptptype was the first car to come out with digital distributorless ignition system. First produced from the factory in the Daytona IROC R/T and Spirit R/T with the TIII engine and the Stealth. The GTR may be refined, as the Venom controller needed 10x the function of the 07 Viper ECM, but it's still basically the same system that came in the 92 R/T (distributorless and digital). What I'm trying to say is that ABS, Turbos, superchargers, climate controls, Electronic Suspension all came on my "ancient technology" 92 Stealth. Perhaps refined, but certianly now new technology in the GTR. The "launch control" is new, but other than just revving the engine to build boost like my stealth, the GTR is an automatic (?) so it would need controls to change the stall speed, etc.

Ted

 

[bluestreak]

Ted you are forgetting that the first motors were NA, so NA is OLDER than anything you mention. At this point almost everything is ancient with refinement. But you cant say the RT10 motor is better than the 08 SRT motor, and that's almost 20 year old technology as well. The fact is that everything is new revisions of old inventions.

I could care less about the GT-R, but calling turbo technology ancient when it has made more advances than anything NA is quite misleading.

 

[RTTTTed]

My point is that Chrysler has invented many new inovations and their inovations have advanced the automotive industry. I would like to think more than any other corporation. The Supercar field was pretty much owned by the Germans and Italians until Dodge came out with the Viper. I think that Dodge and the Viper deserve respect for their input. This thread is comparing the Viper to the GTR. Although the GTR has many refinements in technology and is a 'better car' than my Stealth, but I don't think it's much better. To me the GTR is an upgraded copy of my Stealth and doesn't belong in the same conversation as the Viper.

I feel that the Stealth deserves much more respect than the GTR as it's where the new stability/computer controlled suspensions on pickups and SUVs came from. Although the Stability control systems on the SUVs are simplified they save many lives. The GTRs electronic suspension is a refinement of the same technology and that's why I feel the Stealth deserves more respect than the GTR. The Viper changed what supercar means and was the first real North American supercar. The Viper caused the vette to become refined and nearly equal as well as causing the Ford GT to be built. The GTR will probably start nothing and cause no new starts in technology.

Ted

 

[bluestreak]

Ok, I see where you are coming from now. In terms of innovation, you may be right, the Stealth may have had more to add to current vehicles than the GT-R will add to future ones. DSG, AWD, and stiff suspension arent exactly cutting edge, in fact I think the GT-R isnt anything innovative at all, Porsche, BMW, Buggati etc all have just as good launch control, the GT-R excels because of it's sticky tires, awd and extra short gearing. So it is a good combination of various already commonly used principles, but yeah, you're right, nothing new. Well other than the Cd and aero. That is pretty darn good. But they already achieved the Cd with the skyline (G37) coupe first, but the DF is pretty amazing if that holds true.

As so much as the Viper. Not so much innovation as brute force, they took a scud missle and put it in the engine bay vs hand grenades. But they did humble everyone over seas with the GTS's putting a whooping on the Porsches and Ferrari's and everyone else in the mid-late 90's. So as far as bang for the buck, the Viper started it all. Not neccesarily an engineering tour de fource, but certainly took the fight to the europeans. And as far as I'm concerned, it's still the king of american muscle. I sure wish Dodge had put more into racing the Viper though as it took the europeans to really put the car on the map as a dominant track vehicle. SCCA T1 and Speed GT isnt enough. They need some LMGT1.

So in that aspect I suppose we agree, I just didnt understand the way you verbalized it initially.

 

[RTTTTed]

I realize that it probably reads that I hate the GTR - I don't. I also don't hate the ZR1 or the R8. I just don't think they can hold a candle to a Viper. I guess my frustrations show through? I'm sure they're great cars, just not for me.

My modified Viper is so far superior to all my hundreds of race, street and Prostreet cars I've owned I have trouble imagining that can compare.

I do plan to spend a couple thou and rent an Galardo, Enzo or Porsche one day ... just so that I can compare mine to half million dollar cars to see if they'd be an upgrade or downgrade.

Ted

 

[bluestreak]

I dont like the GT-R one bit, nor do I like the R8 (I think it's ugly). I dont like the S/C on the ZR-1, but I know Chevy couldnt build a reliable NA V8 with that much power so seems like they had little choice, but I dont like it as a track car.

As for renting a Porsche or exotic, I've driven an F430, Gallardo and LP 640. They did enough to make you see why people spend so much on them, but if you're a fairly practical (in terms of bells and whistles) you wont be too impressed. I love my Porsche Turbo, mostly because it's underated on the track, which is the only place I use it. I wanted something different, specifically to beat Z06's with. The GT3's were limited in power, and I passed on the Viper because of all the track wreckage I had seen. I didnt know if I was ready for one as I had only done one advanced DE session. I had an E39 M5 (on 20's) I used to DE and spun once every track day, so I knew with no aids and going much faster, that something bad could happen (that and palmer dodge and their lies). That was a year and a half ago, I'm ready now.

 

[RTTTTed]

I have to admit that I love my positive displacement sc. It performs like a 1000cubic inch n/a engine (800+rwtq). DE for me is Jun 5 and 6th in Portland. Western Region Track day is Jun 20th. More than 23 Vipers booked so far so it should be a good showing. Had my buddy convinced to bring his 911 until track day became a multi-regional event, then he wasn't allowed.

Waiting until you're comfortable before buying a Viper is a great idea. I like the way the car is set up with the slight oversteer. Rear end starts to slide out and a light application of throttle brings it around the corner. Winning's great, but not crashing is the best.

The Viper has almost no bells and whistles which is why it's so cheap. Any 'bells and whistles' needed can be added later. I've added HIDs, bigger lighter brakes & wheels, Bluetooth/ipod/CD, speakers, etc. and I love it. Raced a Z06 and it was like he wasn't there.

Sorry to hear you had a bad experience with Palmer Dodge. The VCA "went to bat" for Tator's Dodge because his reputation is outstanding. Don't know where you're at, but if looking into a new Viper you may want to call him or Bill Pemberton.

Ted

 

[doctorbob]

All I can say is this thread needs to die a rapid and timely death. The trolling has gotten ridiculous and one counter post after another. Figure it out and move on

 

[bluestreak]

Sorry to hear you had a bad experience with Palmer Dodge. The VCA "went to bat" for Tator's Dodge because his reputation is outstanding. Don't know where you're at, but if looking into a new Viper you may want to call him or Bill Pemberton.

Ted

Atlanta, hence the reason I ended up at Palmer. I'm going to see how the car fares in it's first year with reliability, and cost to run. Who knows, they may sell out for year two before I can get to one. I go hard, and am not a casual DE guy and beating up a 100k brand new car might make me a little self concious.

So it may end up being an 06 coupe with aero mods on it. But one way or another I will have a Viper.