Not Happy

[RC Viper]

First let me say that I am a die hard Chrysler fan and currently own 2 Vipers, a PT Cruiser, a 1970 Superbird, and a 1969 Superbee. In addition, I test drove an SRT-4 two nights ago and planned to buy one. That fact makes the following note even more painful.

I received the following letter today from the ISG group of Chrysler concerning my 2003 SRT-10:

=======================================================

Accord and Satisfaction

I, Randall Cade, acknowledge that DaimlerChrysler Corporation has given me good consideration including, but not limited to, a certificate good for $300, and/or replacement of the intake valves on my 2003 Dodge Viper 1B3JR65Z13V******. I accept this as a full satisfaction of any claims I may have to date resulting from tooling of the intake valves.

This Accord and Satisfaction does not affect my warranties or release DaimlerChrysler from liability for any future defects that may arise with my vehicle.

I fully understand and freely sign this Accord and Satisfaction.
Date;______________, 2003
Signature____________________________

Witness:

Signature____________________________________

========================================================

My first response would be deleted by the moderators of this board.

I am being sent a letter to sign off all of my rights when:

-The repair has not even been completed.

-The $300 gift certificate has not been received.

-I have already expressed my discontent over this repair effort to Chrysler.

Suffice it to say that this note (and the timing of it) did not sit well with me and it brings up a topic that I think deserves some discussion on the board.

I LOVE Dodge Vipers but am NOT at all happy that this mistake was made and I am not pleased that my brand new $83,000 car that I waited over a year for is going to have its engine taken apart. I understand that mistakes are made, but think Chrysler is seriously underestimating how sensitive of a topic this recall is for SRT-10 owners. I would think that Chrysler would take all reasonable steps to ensure that the owners of Dodge's most expensive vehicles are satisfied. From my perspective they are not and here is why:

-For 11 years Chrysler has not allowed a single Viper technician to
disassemble an engine, even for simple repairs. Instead, the entire
engine was pulled and sent back to Arrow. Now all of a sudden this policy
has dramatically changed. Chrysler now feels that even though relatively
few Viper techs have been trained on the 2003 SRT-10 that they should
be allowed to pull the heads and replace the valves. While I agree that
sending the entire engine back to Arrow for a valve replacement is
overkill, I think a more reasonable approach is to offer the SRT-10 owners
the option of having the heads replaced. A rotating program could be
established with CAAP to handle the 200 plus cars that were affected. I
understand that this might take longer, but am willing to wait.

-The SRT-10's that were sitting in quarantine in the factory did NOT just
have their valves replaced. According to paperwork in the vehicles
the ENTIRE heads were swapped. When I brought this up with ISG they
informed me that the reason they replaced the entire head was for their
convenience.

-I own 8 cars so I am not interested in the rental car program. Most
Viper owners do not use their cars as daily drivers.

-Chrysler seems to feel that the $300 Mopar performance certificate offer
should make SRT-10 owners happy. While I appreciate the thought,
this is a drop in the bucket when you consider the amount of money that
we all just paid for these cars. Offer to port and polish the heads
and I would be impressed. When you send an engine to Arrow they balance
the engine and you actually receive a BETTER engine back. The only thing
you receive here is the stigma on your car that it has already been
opened up (or worse may not have had the fix applied).

When ISG contacted me last week attempting to schedule the valve replacement I informed them that I wanted my heads replaced. They called me back this afternoon and informed me that Chrysler had denied my request. I plan to escalate this with Chrysler management tomorrow.

Bottom line is that I am not happy and will not be buying any Chrysler vehicles in the future unless this situation is resolved. In my opinion, Chrysler is being penny wise and pound foolish.

I would be interested in your opinions. I noticed in this week's Autoweek that they are asking Viper owners to provide feedback on their cars. Perhaps I will.



-

 

[Daffy Duck Viper]

At first, while reading what you said, I found myself thinking that your concern is overkill, and that what is being done to your Viper is not really such a big deal since it will be done and taken care of before you even receive your Viper. However, as I continued to read, finishing your post, I can only say that I agree with you 100%. Were I in your shoes I would want it handled to the degree that they have handled engines in the past, sending them to Arrow, having the heads replaced, and everything done right, including the blue printing of the engine, so that it comes back in even better shape than it ever was. It's the least they can do for screwing up so badly. The $300 ain't crap compared to that, and in no way makes up for it.

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[Joseph Houss]

In my humble opinion, and with all respect to your very valid concerns:

The way I read this agreement, it is confirming that you were OFFERED these options, and agree to them... I don't believe it says "the work was done".

Let me try to get this clarified for you.

Also, please explain why you would want to replace the heads? There's nothing wrong with the heads.... it's just being updated with the appropriate valve. And a valve replacement is a procedure that is done by just about any mechanic, and surely with 100% accuracy by a certified Viper Tech, as they tend to be the most tenured (and most qualified) staff members of each facility, considering the training they must adhere to.

Wouldn't you rather get the job done quickly, at your dealer, without worrying about the engine pull procedure, and reinstall procedure, and the loss and of use and storaage of your awesome SRT for 3 weeks or more? I'm sure this is one of the reasons Dodge chose to go this route... a quick and honorable 25 horsepower adjustment ... at your convenience, and at your dealership, as quickly as possible.

And yes, I too saw a silver SRT-4 yesterday .... absolutely awesome! GREAT JOB DODGE!

....and by the way, if you want to test drive these babies.... make sure you register for one of the five Zone Rendezvous ... because along with our friends at PVO supplying us with 2 VERY SPECIAL SRT-10's .... they'll be bringing 2 SRT-4's for autocross laps as well!!!

 

[Cris]

I accept this as a full satisfaction of any claims I may have to date resulting from tooling of the intake valves.

This would seem to indemnify DC from responsibility that results from the intake valve issue. Not sure how to interpret it legally. But I question the need for a signed affidavit for service work. I have never had to sign something like this for any other warranty/recall work.

The point about a dealer mechanic not being qualified requires more comment. How many dealers have experience pulling the cylinder heads off any Viper? How many on SRT's? What is the downside of a first timer doing such work? More than I would undertake. One scratch could result in significant loss to the owner (and don't even mention the average Dodge dealer doing a touch-up repair). I do not even want to think about what could happen to the engine based on improper repair. If it ultimately caused the engine to be lost (damaged beyond repair) would the signed affidavit limit a course for buyback. A non-numbers matching new SRT would be quite a disappointment.

How come in previous years this repair process would have been taboo for a dealer to conduct, but now on brand new $83K SRT's it is business as usual.

I do not know about the others but I would take time off from work to be present during any and all repairs. The $300 Mopar coupon does not come close to covering my direct loss as a result. Hardly a "gift."

Count me in on the "disappointed" list!

 

[SapphireGTS]

You know. Its a d a m n car. The car will be fixed and you will never know it was ever taken apart. I love vipers and may be a little disappointed but its a first run car. This will happen. They are trying to make it right. No matter how much you plan, there will always be some adjustments. This is just a form to prove that you were offered work. Dodge wants to make sure that you were offered to have it fixed free of charge. They are concerned and want to make sure that they contacted everyone. I have a 10+ year old design of a viper and it let me down broken on the side of the road. It will be fixed and I will be happy. If the condition of your car equates to your level of happiness god help you. I love the Viper old and new, but its a car. If it blew up in my driveway I wouldn't worry about it. I may call my secretary to contact the insurance agency but thats it.

Good luck though I hope you end up feeling better about your car. Seriously.

 

[luc]

When you see how many brackets for the recall on the steering rack of RT/GTS were welded in the WRONG place,I will not trust the average mechanic to touch my car,that include most of the 5 stars and viper techs.

The cars should be send back to CAAP (spel?)to be fixed by the factory.
As to the comment by Joe regarding the "cetified viper tech",exept for a FEW good one,the vast majority don't even know how to open the hood on a GTS.

 

[RC Viper]

Judging by the posts to this thread I was obviously not clear enough.

I DO NOT want my engine pulled and sent to Arrow. All I want is the same repair that the quarantine cars received. They did not have their valves replaced. They had their heads replaced. Why is this? Why should I be penalized for taking delivery of my car in February verses April?

Why is Dodge requiring Viper owners to sign a waiver prior to having the recall work completed? I have had several cars recalled including my PT cruiser and have never been asked to sign a waiver. What if the valve replacement does not cure the horsepower issue? If you read the letter literally, you have NO recourse. If the issue is the $300.00 then replace my heads and Dodge can keep the $300 certificate.

Do other SRT-10 owners affected by this issue feel this is being unreasonable? Believe me when you are affected your point of view changes.

 

[EXECMALIBU]

GEEEEE!

WHY WOULD ANYONE BE UPSET ABOUT THE IDEA OF THEIR BRAND NEW $83K SHOW CAR BEING THE FIRST VIPER MOTOR THAT "JOE VIPER TECH" GETS TO TAKE APART!!

THINK OF TWO HUGE GUYS DIGGING THEIR ELBOWS INTO YOUR BRAND NEW FENDERS AS THEY TAKE THE INTAKE AND HEADS OFF..REMEMBER NO MORE CLAM SHELL HOOD.

REPLACE THE HEADS WITH COMPLETE FACTORY REPLACMENTS?? NAAAAW! THAT MAKES TO MUCH SENSE!!

DC CAN SAVE BIG MONEY BY UNDER-PAYING "JOE VIPER TECH" TO TACKLE THE JOB...

JUST LIKE THE RECALL ON THE GEN I-II FRAMES..THERE WERE ONLY A SMALL NUMBER OF THEM (MAYBE 30 OR SO) THAT HAD THE BRACKETS WELDED ON BACKWARDS! WHAT IS THE BIG FUSS ABOUT JUST BECAUSE YOU NOW CANT CHANGE THE OIL FILTER.."YOU DONT NEED NO SINKIN NEW OIL FILTER". AND WHO REALLY CARED ABOUT A DOZEN EXTRA HOLES DRILLED IN THE WRONG PLACE?

DC WILL PROVIDE "JOE VIPER TECH" WITH A NEW MANUAL AND YOUR SRT-10 TO PRACTICE ON..

FORGET ABOUT THE RELEASE YOU SIGNED! DC WAS PROBABLY JUST KIDDING..

YOU CAN REST ASSURED THAT YOUR DEALER WILL ONLY LET "JOE VIPER TECH" WORK ON YOUR NEW SRT LATE IN THE DAY WHEN HE IS TIRED AND ALL OF THE PROFITABLE NEON WARRANTY WORK IS FINISHED.. .

IT WILL ALSO BE QUARANTEED WITHOUT A DOUBT THAT "EVERY" DODGE DEALER WILL TOTALLY TOOL UP WITH ALL OF THE SUPER EXPENSIVE VIPER TOOLS INCLUDING THE 5 CYLINDER HEAD JIG ETC..HELL ANY BACK YARD "JOE" CAN GRIND A MULTI-ANGLE VALVE SEAT WITH A HAND DRILL..

DC SHOULD OFFER YOU $300 WORTH OF JACK DANIELS!

THEN MAYBE YOU WOULD FEEL BETTER FOR THE 4-6 WEEKS THAT YOUR CAN IS SITTING OUTSIDE IN THE DEALERS BACK LOT WAITING TO BE FINISHED..

I DONT UNDERSTAND WHY ANYONE COULD POSSIBLY BE UPSET?

JUST THINK LIKE DC..HELL IT IS ONLY A DODGE!

 

[gtsviper]

Randy...I am not in a position to know what DC was thinking when they developed this release so I am only speculating. The document seems to be more concerned with the valve problem and the liability the company could face because the car was delivered at a reduced performance level. This is similar to what Ford faced when it delivered Cobras with reduced HP from the advertised specs. The form clearly states that you retain all warranty rights and if the work is not done properly or any other problems relating to the repair or manufacture exist you can still expect the company to back you under the warranty. I think the lawyers are just trying to say that if the spec valves are replaced then you don't have any cause of action because the car was delivered to you with lower horsepower. I think DC could have done a better job explaining this if that's the case and maybe they can address this before others get as angry as you are.
As far as the local Viper Techs...I share your concern. I live in an area with the highest concentration of Vipers and don't know of one dealer I could take my SRT or RT/10 to with any degree of confidence for warranty work. We have great tech's in SoCal but they got smart and have their own shops to do performance work. DC should closely look at the quality of the people they have working on the Vipers and address this issue. Given the experience many of us have had just BUYING Vipers, the service aspect is challenge that Dodge must address to avoid both customer relations problems and excessive warranty costs.
I think Dodge has been very up front with us about the valve issue and is trying hard to work out the problems in a way that makes us as satisfied as we can be. My SRT was delayed at the factory to either replace the valves at CAAP or was not affected and was held until they could make that determination. I would like to know if the car was involved but think that if it was, I am lucky the great people at CAAP did the work. This is the first I heard that the entire heads are swapped as a factory fix. You can bet that they didn't trash the removed heads from new engines. If they didn't replace the valves in the removed heads and then reinstall them on other engines it would be a terrible waste. In other words...it's the same difference. Having CAAP techs do it though does make me feel better.
IMO...you should take this one step at a time. Get the work done and then see if you have a problem. You can then work to resolve it if necessary. As for the release...don't sign it until the work is done and you have all the consideration stated on the form. When you are satisfied then sign off on it.

 

[Paul Hawker]

Randall.
Sorry about your dissatisfaction with the valve issue. I betcha something could be worked out if you were to either offer to drive your car back to CAAP, or arrange to have it shipped (your cost). Maybe they would offer to fix it at the plant, if you were real nice about it.
Worring about all the what if's and what could possible go wrong. (Scratches etc.) will keep you up at night.
Part of the excitment of getting the first edition of a mostly new car is often muted by the enhanced possibility that teething problems may arrive. Especially with a limited production, handbuilt car like the Viper.
Sounds like the legal document has set you off, and I can understand why.
Dodge has a boat load of lawyers, attempting to protect their Company.
If it were mine, I would probably sign the form, locate the best Vipertech, with the best reputation I could find, and get your snake back up to full power in time to enjoy some Springtime romps in the beautiful Carolina Countryside.
Take a deep breath, and go boldly into our brave new world.

 

[George Murray]

Maybe these "valve recall" cars will be more collectible. Like the much sought-after Kelsey-Hayes "recall wheels" that were supposed to come on 69 1/2 six-pack B Bodies.

Naaaaah

 

[treynor]

I'll admit that I'm displeased by this recall as well. The idea of the local Viper tech digging into the '03 engine for the first time doesn't give me warm fuzzies, although I know it's not exactly rocket science on a pushrod motor. Certainly, I would feel a lot better if Dodge could "make it up to us" by letting us get the heads ported & polished while they're off, extrude-honing the intake, or some other performance-oriented "gimme" to compensate for the stigma of having an engine-recall car. Imagine being one of the few proud owners of a "factory ported SRT" car instead, and you'll see my point.

 

[knuk]

treynor - this is the best solution yet - screw the $$ they are offering us and have the heads ported & polished.
Also, I don't think we should have to sign anything - never have in the past.

 

[Fred(DrivingSchool)Kinder]

Agree with most of your feelings for concern. The service contractor given the task to deal with this problem is acting like a PR company.

Their list of companies and Viper techs to make repairs is "current", they say. WRONG! They did not know Stevens Creek Dodge(sold in early-mid March) no longer exist and the last 4 or 5 months of operation Stevens Creek Dodge had no Viper Techs. They were the best dealership for service a few years ago. When Jim Garcia, service Director left their service declined and the Viper Tech ran for cover at the local Mercedes Store.

Screw the $300.00, pick up my car return it to CAAP put on new heads and return the car.

 

[GTS Dean]

I am generally in agreement with the bad sentiment expressed here. However, the heads on these cars are fine. The rockers, retainers and springs are fine. The head and intake gaskets are fine. The exhaust valves are fine. It's only the INTAKE VALVES that are NOT fine. If Dodge were to swap heads out, they would end up with an inventory of slightly used head castings, exhaust valves and spring&retainer sets that they have to figure out what to do with. They could do a fully-warranted factory re-man job on the slightly used heads, but some SRT owners would insist on new only. I'd say send the heads to the closest regional Viper Tech training center for the valve swap and lap. Then send the heads back to the local dealer for reinstallation.

 

[gtsviper]

Again, IMO there is an obvious customer relations problem here that Dodge should deal with asap. Asking for ported/polished heads doesn't make sense though...if you are so concerned with local guys removing and reinstalling the heads, why would you want them to do high performance modifications on them?

 

[Joseph Houss]

Randy, Regarding your post:

.....I DO NOT want my engine pulled and sent to Arrow. All I want is the same repair that the quarantine cars received. They did not have their valves replaced. They had their heads replaced.

Where did you get the info that the factory replaced the heads? I am quite sure that this is NOT the case.... just the valves .... just like every other effected Snake will be offered.

 

[Viperfreak2]

Life isn't perfect. Either is any car. Someone pondered the possibility of a scratch on the valve cover of their almost new SRT. Are the bricks on your house perfect? Do you have perfect teeth? Is your wife flawless and children perfect? On and On. Being anal retentive is so ugly. On the drive home, it turns from a new car to a used car. I agree with GTS dean, complaining about removing the heads as a difficult bit of work for a trained mechanic (these guys aren't all Bubba's) yet pondering having one of the performance gurus chop and chisel and remove and add and dice and slice your car is perfectly reasonable? Times a wastin' and lifes short. Get a grip. Relax. Breath.

 

[Janni]

Randy is not accusing Viper Techs of being Bubbas - in fact we have one of the top techs in the country right in our region. And it's not even that he wants his heads "replaced" - he just wants the intake valves put into a set of heads by the same person that does it every day. He wants a "factory rebuilt" set of heads. They can be his, or they can be new ones or they can be ones that are specifically used in "rotation" for those who want to send their heads back to CAAP. I have not even done this procedure, but as it has been explained to me there is some matching and adjusting that needs to be done. Most techs, Viper and otherwise, don't do this type of repair on a daily basis. It's an issue about familiarity with the process, not concern about the competence of our tech.

As I understand it, the cars that were caught at CAAP, were quarantined at an offsite facility and repairs were made there - the paperwork delivered inside some of these affected vehicles state "heads swapped" or something ot that effect. Now I am sure what they did was to take 10-15 heads and bring them over to the facility, make the repair, and then take those heads back to CAAP and do the valve change THERE, just like a normal build process. He's not demanding new heads. he's not demanding that they pick up his car and ship it to Detroit.

It shouldn't take long, it really shouldn't cost more, and the customer will be happy in that the same person that originally installed the valves in his head, did the replacement installation.

I don't think this is unreasonable and I don't think it's anal retentive.

 

[JonB]

Misc ramblings and clarifiactions from a grey-beard..........

--I suspect that the valve manufacturer, EATON, is paying this total bill. Standard language in tier-one supplier contracts. They failed to polish (back-cut) the valves.

--Team Viper/D-C mechanics did the valve replacements at CAAP. The repair was a 1.5 - 2 day job. Just the valves were replaced at CAAP. D-C allows 6.2 hours for dealers to repair. THEY will be "NOT HAPPY" as well. Why would D-C allow a rental car for "a few days" per D-C letter? The dealers get 6.4 labor hours for this, plus wash and fuel-fill labor and costs.

--The pre-work-waiver that Randy brings up is indeed ill-conceived. Some junior lawyer musta thunk THAT one up. Thank God we have Joe Houss inquiring to calm this one down..

--This is NOT a "Recall" in the strictest sense. It is a "Rapid Action" TSB.

--Dodge Viper techs WERE allowed to work on motors from 1992-April 1994. The reasons they were stopped was NOT totally based on lack of competancy....it was based in part on the Zones frequent discovery of modded engines being repaired under warranty by dealers who winked at the process. And also on the difficult nature of the massive head-gasket-debacle of 92-95.

--I therefore agree that the valve replacement (Not Yet released anyway!) can certainly be performed by "willing and able" Dodge Viper dealers...and WE know who they are! P.S. there are new style Intake Manifold attaching bolts being used.....they discoverd the OE allen bolts were a BUGGER to access and replace during the CAAP replacement. The new ones are Torx-head.

---The TSB strongly cautions dealers to take "great care" with painted body work and glass..............

---Ben....Performing a 'factory port-polish' would require a total re-cert on the motor........one of the major delays of the 2003. It'll never happen. DANG ! But take heart: Now that repairs are back in dealer hands, why not consider having the heads 'prepped to spec' via a mild port and polish while they are off? Many dealers could perform or farm this operation, and the labor for the Remove+Replace is FREE !

--The actual parts list: Intake valves and seals; head gaskets; Exhaust manifold gaskets; intake manifold gaskets; exhaust clamps; I/M bolts; Crank Sensor (nice precaution); Wiring harness fasteners (ditto); oil Filter and Mobil One refill 11 qts;

 

[Joseph Houss]

Jon, as usual, you have enlightened me, and surely everyone, to the business, and historic logic to this procedure, and previous philosophy.

Thank You!

 

[knuk]

Jon, in your opinion, should I be concerned about the mechanics ability to perform the fix? All the talk here is making me nervous! Also, what sort of performance would my SRT gain by having the heads "prepped to spec", as you suggest? Can you explain this procedure?
Thanks.

 

[Fred(DrivingSchool)Kinder]

HiJonB

"Manifold attaching bolts being used.....they discoverd the OE allen bolts were a BUGGER to access and replace during the CAAP replacement. The new ones are Torx-head."

My SRT is in the Valve repalce group and the intake is attached with Torx-head?

 

[slaughterj]

As a lawyer (though not an SRT purchaser), I'm not too keen on the Accord and Satisfaction language that Randy has posted - if they wanted something like that, then they should have explained it better for one thing.

Good luck with getting this resolved Randy, and feel free to give me a call.

 

[cstegall]

JonB,

Once again, thanks for the post and input. As a new SRT owner(one apparently not affected by the intake problem), I find your explanation very informative. I still think DC(irregardless of the letter of release)is handling this MUCH better than they did the seatbelt problem that arose a year or so ago.

CStegall

 

[Lawrenzo]

Certainly, I would feel a lot better if Dodge could "make it up to us" by letting us get the heads ported & polished while they're off, extrude-honing the intake, or some other performance-oriented "gimme" to compensate for the stigma of having an engine-recall car.

And this would be done by whom- the dealers Viper-tech? Ummmm, yeah!

My local tech couldn't even install a side rearview mirror without leaving a tool inside the door panel

 

[Cris]

And this would be done by whom- the dealers Viper-tech? Ummmm, yeah!

My local tech couldn't even install a side rearview mirror without leaving a tool inside the door panel

Yep that gives me a warm and fuzzy about having that same mechanic do my engine work.

I like the idea stated earlier (thanks Jerry) about a centralized repair facilities with people trained and capable of doing the job right. And with a chassis dyno and other test equipment to verify that the finished product is leak free, produces torque and power as expected, and in general verify that all is well. Only after that level of verification would I sign anything.

The $300 Mopar certificate is a gesture but only that. It is less than the average owner will lose in the time they expend while transporting their car to and from a dealer.

To me the number one objective is to get to the torque and power level that I already paid for without causing any additional pain. Dealing with dealership mechanics on a major repair such as this is more pain than I can bear. So far DC has not provided an acceptable solution route.

 

[knuk]

Joe, will you be in contact with DC regarding all of these comments? Going to go the mile for us?!!

 

[Milksnake]

Fred, we agree with you.

It appears that if you sign the letter, prior to the repairs, you are accepting whatever they do. Also, by signing it, it removes the liability of D/C of any loss of value or performance if the repair is not done correctly or any scratches or mistakes done by the "newly trained" tech. In effect, this becomes a legal document that exonerates D/C from any problems resulting from the repair. They seem to cover themselves by stating that "This Accord and Satisfaction does not affect my warranties or release D/C from liability for any future defects that may arise with my vehicle." What future defects are they alluding to? The warranty is directed at specfics, whereas the "intake valve problem" is due to their lack of quality control when machining. Also, signing this implies "satisfaction," how many SRT owners who are effected can honestly say they are "satisfied?"

While I love the car, I am not satisfied with all this "crap!"

Would Dodge have to "cover their bottoms" so carefully if it would have remained an American company?

 

[Black SRT]

The Accord and Satisfaction statement is clearly written to give DC
the option to provide the $300 certificate "and" the valve replacement, "or" the valve replacement by itself, as "full satisfaction of any claims." This may not be their intent, but this is what is stated.