Ok, so i finally drove a GTS and here is what i found..

Lee00blacksilverGTS · Feb 28, 2002

Quality, hmmmm..I also own an M5, let's see...
1. Vanos noise.
2. Differential whine.
3. Blown clutches (2000yr only).
4. Peeling aluminum trim.
5. Busted, cheap crappy cupholders.
6. Door edge sealing rubber fitted incorectly so it wears off.
7. Crumbling aluminum interior trim (2000 only).
8. Fussy engine contoller that makes smooth shifting impossible.
9. Goofy Nav system.
10.Goofy tire pressure warning system.
11.Tire recall due to machine cutting tires at factory.
12.Orange peel in Paint, Viper paint is PERFECT!
13. Recall due to exploding, on fire items in engine compartment, can't remember exactly what.
14. BMW dealers, need I say more?

I didn't have all these problems, due to careful ordering to avoid options with trouble or by being advised by folks on bimmer.org or bmwM5.com. But all these complaints are all over both those boards. Do I still love this car, of course. It is "the baddest 4dr sedan on the planet." Motor Trend said that, not me. But quality? The Viper is a HANDBUILT car. If you visited the factory, you would see the work ethic of quality going into the car. The M5 is built on the 540 line, it USED to be a hand built car. The Viper is a minimalist race car that can be driven on the street, after the philosopy of the original Cobra. And after a few miles you will feel completely at home with the offset pedals, no dead pedal, etc. And believe me you could crack a vertebra with that lumbar contol pump, much stonger than M5, it either wasn't working or you didn't know how to use it. I've also owned about 20 Corvettes, and believe me, you will never look back at that z06 if you buy the Viper.

Stiffler · Feb 28, 2002

I drive a GTS and here's what I find:

I can't stop smiling because I absolutely love my Viper.

I don't notice the pedals being offset anymore.

I enjoy the power/torque, and I'll enjoy it more when I add some mods.

While I didn't buy the car for the approval of others, I do enjoy all of the thumbs up and attention driving a Viper brings.

Getting in is cumbersome, but I expect that with a sports car.

The Viper is certainly not for everyone, but that's the benefit of living in America, freedom of choice.

tzoid · Feb 28, 2002

Normally, I read these types of entries and blow them off. But, I got thinking of your comments and couldn't resist.....
Everybody who has a Viper and loves it knows it's not perfect. It wasn't supposed to be. It's a brawler, I believe it was called a broadsword, not a foil. It's what Mike Tyson was in his prime...one punch and your in the twilight zone. That's why I bought it. The Corvette is a very nice car, but it's not a Viper and vice versa. Most of us like the Viper, maybe even love it. But, I think you know that (especially since you've surfed this board), don't you. Your descriptive verses want all of us to know how intelligent you are, don't they. Translated, you wish to be noticed. But, you don't care about how much attention you now will get in your new Viper? Kind of a contradiction isn't it...makes me wonder on your real reasons for posting.

By the way, I flew to Sea Island, the Cloisters, last weekend to play some golf. Lovely place, Sea Island...much prettier than Pittsburgh in February. Anyway, I bumped my head getting into my friend's Lear Jet when we boarded for the flight south. Funny, I still liked that Lear even though my head was sore for a day. It was real fast too.

ronviper · Feb 28, 2002

AJ, you have to own a viper to appreciate it. It has nothing to do with quality, exhaust sound etc it's a love affair. Drive one for a while, it creates smiles, high five's, thumbs up and a lot of intangibles you just do not get with other cars.

Vreracing · Feb 28, 2002

This is way down near the bottom of the post so maybe someone will see it. Since we think of the Viper as a "Race Car" for the street. I thought I might include my race car for the track.

.9meg movie. Not a Viper, an old camaro.

Plese note that

1) You have to climb in the window.

2) The seat is custom cut out of aluminum so it fits pretty well.

3) Pedals are just about any where you want to put them.

4) Visability: They won't let us have mirrors or anything glass so you can't see behind you. Because of the neck brace, you barely even see to the side.

5: Materials in the cabin. For a dash, I have a bent piece of sheet metal with a Tachometer, Water temp, and oil pressure guage and emergency on off switch. (You can reach in from the outside and switch off the engine quickly) Otherwise its pretty bare. They put the face plate of a stereo on the dash so I could think I had some music.

6: Drive: It turns left really well.

7: No comment

8) It doesn't have an exhaust pipe. It gets pretty loud. As you can hear in the movie its really rough at idle.

The bottom line. The Viper's designed for racing. Some people like me wanted to drive it as a daily driver so they sort of finished it out. As I described, next to most race cars the Viper is like a Lexus.

I love it.

BigsViper · Mar 1, 2002

Vre....... Your post is............PERFECTION!!!

Takes some panhandle common sense to sum this whole thing up!!

Congrats!!

(Vre.... A dirt track rounder??? Porsche at TWS?? Must be a REAL racer!)

kowalski vanishing point · Mar 1, 2002

Offset pedals?
I never noticed that.
Now I'll have to go outside and sit in the darn thing and see.
I hope you guys didn't ruin my car for me.

Toby · Mar 1, 2002

I have seen this type of poster before on other threads.

He is a legend is his own mind.

onerareviper · Mar 1, 2002

"GO AWAY KID, YOU BOTHER ME...."

Y2K5SRT · Mar 1, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by AJ:

1. getting in the car is hard. i wacked my head pretty good on the a-pillar..<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not quite sure why you had trouble. I am the same height and have yet to bump my head anywhere on the car. The only time I had a problem was with an RT/10 with the hard top. I was so used to the curved entry on the GTS that I whacked my head pretty good on that RT/10. But only once. You learn.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
2. once inside the seat is too loose for me (and i am not that skinny- 6 feet at 190 pounds)... it is also too soft on the back, you press the clutch and your back goes 2 inches back into the cushion. playing with the little lumbar pump thing made no difference.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I would guess that you didn't tighten the valve knob on the lumbar support pump. It will make that seat almost rock hard, at least on the lower end. I also put my seat all the way back against the "wall" so there is no play in the seat itself. I then adjust the pedals accordingly.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
3. pedals. i understand that tranny is in the way, but the way the pedals are on the left is getting some time getting used to. also, the lack of deadpedal is bringing up the question what to do with my left foot

i put it on the floor in front of the pedal, but i am not sure that was the best solution. the good thing is that at least the pedals move back and forth. since there is no telescoping wheel, this feature is essential.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It was weird, because I was warned so many times about the offset pedals that I didn't even notice them when I bought the car. lack of a dead pedal is indeed a pain, but notice there isn't much room (if any) for one on the current model. I believe the completely redesigned 2003 will have a dead pedal. And cupholders.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
4. visability. as i said- i am 6 feet tall so i consider myself normal height. well, looking forward is not very shall we say rewarding. but i guess i can get used to it. looking backward is a futile effort. however, i am used to it and it doesnt bother me.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You lost me here. Maybe it is because I drive SUV's otherwise (where the back window is pretty far away), but I find the rear view to be just fine. Make sure you adjust the inside mirror so you get the best "angle" over that small spoiler. As to the front view, it is a lot of hood indeed. As it is arguably the most expensive part on the car, you get to keep a close eye on it. My only visibility issue would be the "dead spot" on the c-pillars. Common on most cars, it is a little bigger spot on the Viper.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
5. quaility. is a joke. the materials used in the cockpit are pathetic and dodge should be ashamed of itself. for that alone i consider the viper seriously overpriced- about 10-15k.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Definitely disagree with you on this one. Is it BMW quality? No way. Even Honda quality? Probably not. Should it be? Nope! The car is a driver's car and is designed accordingly. Darn near as powerful as a Winston Cup car, with a MUCH more luxurious cockpit. The car was designed for brute strength and happens to have great looks as well. It is not designed for long trips or grocery runs (although I do both and enjoy it). It is designed for going fast on the track and the interior satisfies that 100%. There are nicer interiors on nicer cars. The Viper is not "nice", and that is the way it should be.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>6. drive. mixed bag. the straight line accelleration is good (i am spoiled- i've had few 600+ hp cars before), but not scary. the 500 pounds of torque are not really in your face until you hit 3000 rpms or so. then it is good

turn in is awsome and i liked the tail-happy nature of the oversteering viper. the only concern is that when it lets go, it lets go instantly. no warning. maybe i am not tuned to the car, but this is what i noticed. if i induce the oversteer, control is excellent. if "it" induces it - it is very abrput and without a warning. as some people here said- the snake will bite you

maximum braking is good, but modulation is kinda vague and i understand why some people get aftermarket brake setups.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am not going to argue with this too much. I do think the torque can hit you immediately and that 1st gear is often worthless because of it.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
7. pen*is extension factor- it is hard to beleive that almost 10 years after its intro the car still turns heads like nothing else... i will leave it at that. i dont care much about it, but i guess it is there...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Make sure you care about this one way or another. If you like it, the Viper is for you. If you don't - DON'T buy this car. You will find it draws a crowd wherever you go for as long as you own it. If you don't enjoy it or can tolerate it well, don't buy the Viper. Most of us try to be good ambassadors for the Viper Nation and take the time to talk with people that stop to ask about it.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
8. sound. they totally got it wrong. that and the even number of cylinders per manifold makes for one angry sounding ups truck.. i see why people go to aftermarket catbacks (besides the few hp)
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is simply too quiet. It doesn't even sound angry. Simply drop that rear resonator/muffler and you will make this car sound more like it should. A great 2nd mod behind tubes and filters.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>the verdict- me likes the snake

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Me too!

Oh, and I would love to own an M5 at some point as well. No replacement for the Viper, but it would be an awesome car to have. Had a 735i which still remains my wife's favorite car we have ever owned (50+ at last count). M5 might be a nice compromise. Can't go wrong either way!

Chris

JimDavis MT 97GTS 650R · Mar 1, 2002

All of your points are true. That's part of what makes this car such a kick! Thank goodness you weren't entertaining buying a AC Shelby Cobra.

Obviously it's not your kind of ride. No big deal. Go find something more to your liking. I've owned a '65 Sunbeam Tiger, '69 AMX, ,73 Pantera, to name a few of the bad boys, and had a slew of the more refined cars like Mercedes, BMW and (God forgive me) Toyota's, and let me tell you.... the Viper grows on you. You forgive it for some small shortcomings, and proceed to have a blast, never looking back even once!! Try and say that about all the other mundane cars of the world.

AJ · Mar 1, 2002

y2k gts- i meant the dead spots.. looking straight backwards was ok. i failed to clarify my initial post.. sorry

jim, exactly what i was hoping to read in this thread... dont you guys understand that i am beyond the stage in life where looks alone can make me buy a car? i was hoping to hear more of the "it will grow" on you comments...

alex
00 m5
few other cars

Butch The Snake · Mar 1, 2002

I ordered my new 2001 M5 but I couldn't figure out the correct application for it(family wagon? sports car? what?). So when the M5 came in I canceled it.

Toby · Mar 1, 2002

I test drove a new 2002 GTS ACR last night and everything this guy is saying is hog wash. The only thing that could be adjusted is the lack of left foot room.

Chuck 98 RT/10 · Mar 1, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by TobyT:
I test drove a new 2002 GTS ACR last night and everything this guy is saying is hog wash.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Of course it is. The guy is just trying to stir up excitement on the board and we should thank him for that. The criticisms could have been copied/pasted from any car mag over the past ten years. He can’t even list a positive view without taking a jab…

“it is hard to beleive that almost 10 years after its intro the car still turns heads like nothing else.”

Then he peppers the post with smiley faces so we don’t take it the wrong way. Your car is overpriced

Your car isn’t fast

Your car *****

He started another thread about the strength of the bottom end. So this guy is going to buy a car that he doesn’t like and isn’t impressed with, for what, to build a drag car out of it? Or maybe it’s so he can say he owned one, became an expert and wasn’t impressed. Who cares? Thanks for the fun AJ!

BWoodbury · Mar 1, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by jrkermode:
The Viper is the automotive equivalent of a Harley.

For those who get it, no explanation is necessary. For those who don't get it, no explanation will suffice.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yep!

King GTS · Mar 1, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Craig 201 MPH:
I would expect this kind of post by someone with an M5.

How can you speak of no torque till 3K Do you ***** this much about the Bimmer?

Craig

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree w/ Craig on this one.

Jim Hodel · Mar 1, 2002

I actually agree with some of your points, although my only real complaint is the heat from the side pipes. All the other stuff I am used to now and it doesn't bother me.

I've had lots of different sports cars, and I have noticed that whenever I get out of one car (the Viper for instance) and into another car (a Z06 for instance) the new car always feels 'funny' until I settle in. Then I'm fine. The Viper may take a little longer to get comfortable in, but once you do, it's great. Have you spent much time driving Porsche 911's? Even the 993's are pretty funky until you get used to them.

I know several German car fans who drive Vipers with the intent of not liking them so that they can feel better about owning a slower car. Your original post sounded a little like that.

I'm not going to diss the M5 because I have never driven one. I can only assume that it is much better then the E36 M3 I traded in on our 99 GTS.

Jim

AJ · Mar 2, 2002

a ha!

alex
00 m5
few other cars

BWoodbury · Mar 4, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Jim Hodel:
although my only real complaint is the heat from the side pipes
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Jim,

Easily solved! Get some low restriction cats. Give JonB at Parts Rack or Sean Roe a call and they will set you up.

AJ · Mar 19, 2002

well, what counts is the final outcome, right?

glad some people saw the things i wrote the way i meant them to be

thanx everybody for your thoughtful (and not so thoughful) input

joseph, thanx for recommending me buhler dodge. the folks there are trully the best viper dealer on the east coast

alex
02 graphite gts
few other cars

Ok, so i finally drove a GTS and here is what i found..

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