OLD Headgaskets on Ebay
- Thread starter ROCKET62
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cobramadness
Viper Owner
- Joined
- Feb 7, 2005
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Head Gasket Set
If you own a Viper!
Even if you don't, you never know!
Have a set handy.
Use as gag gift for the dreamer or the guy who has everything!
If you own a Viper!
Even if you don't, you never know!
Have a set handy.
Use as gag gift for the dreamer or the guy who has everything!
Cal Cobra
Viper Owner
saw them too, DON'T BUY THEM, unless you need some practice changing head gaskets
Cal
Cal
joe117
Enthusiast
Some day they will be worth a bunch of money when the classic car Vipers will need to be all OEM right down to the proper glue holding the underhood stickers in place .
Look at what the classic Corvette guys have to do in order to get a high score.
I'm sort of kidding about this, but it just might be true.
Look at what the classic Corvette guys have to do in order to get a high score.
I'm sort of kidding about this, but it just might be true.
99 R/T 10
Enthusiast
Well, look at the cost vs. probability. Even though we know that the old gaskets have a good chance at failing, it won't happen over night. They could last 10+ years. So $30-$40 vs. $900, I can see the benifit, assuming the work is being done by the owner. Labor is always the bulk of the bill
Gerald Levin
Viper Owner
I'm sure these would be of interest to the guy with a Gen 1 who has bad gaskets and will use these as a cheap replacement before he ebays his car.
I replaced the old style with new ones and there are many points that wouldn't make it so cost effective for someone to be dumb enough (or cheap enough) to reuse the old style.
It's like night and day, Vette versus Viper, when looking at the two.
First of all, the OEM complete gasket set is $780 delivered through Tator. There are about 10 gaskets. Gen1's are known to leak at the thermostat gaskets/bolts. If you bought this ebay set to be cheap, you'd have to buy the other gaskets separately. Guess how much each of those add up if you don't buy the kit? A lot!
Intake(1), exhaust(2), thermosat(3), valve covers(2) even though you could probably reuse those. This is going to get really expensive making that ebay deal not so cheap.
It's like night and day, Vette versus Viper, when looking at the two.
First of all, the OEM complete gasket set is $780 delivered through Tator. There are about 10 gaskets. Gen1's are known to leak at the thermostat gaskets/bolts. If you bought this ebay set to be cheap, you'd have to buy the other gaskets separately. Guess how much each of those add up if you don't buy the kit? A lot!
Intake(1), exhaust(2), thermosat(3), valve covers(2) even though you could probably reuse those. This is going to get really expensive making that ebay deal not so cheap.
viperrt96
Enthusiast
Well then call me dumb
I put the old style on this (my) motor this last winter. No problems here! While my originals started to leak this last fall. It took 8yrs and 34k miles to do so. Looking into why it leaked (in most cases they leak outside the block-as mine did) my engine builder said most of the problem was neglected coolant. Neglected coolant means high PH that becomes acidic and that's what eats the old gaskets up. This motor has .060 off of the heads (compression now around 10.5:1-stock was 9:1) and some major head porting and polishing, cam, 1.7 roller rockers,65mm accufabs,borla headers(old style),randomtech 3" cat back exhaust,blah, blah This car runs bad a$$!
My point: There is nothing wrong with the old ones! I saved $900 (sorry $780 at Tators) I spent my money elsewhere.
Flame away bench wrenchers
99 R/T 10
Enthusiast
Well then call me dumb
I put the old style on this (my) motor this last winter. No problems here! While my originals started to leak this last fall. It took 8yrs and 34k miles to do so. Looking into why it leaked (in most cases they leak outside the block-as mine did) my engine builder said most of the problem was neglected coolant. Neglected coolant means high PH that becomes acidic and that's what eats the old gaskets up. This motor has .060 off of the heads (compression now around 10.5:1-stock was 9:1) and some major head porting and polishing, cam, 1.7 roller rockers,65mm accufabs,borla headers(old style),randomtech 3" cat back exhaust,blah, blah This car runs bad a$$!
My point: There is nothing wrong with the old ones! I saved $900 (sorry $780 at Tators) I spent my money elsewhere.
Flame away bench wrenchers
You're a bad, bad man..................... using the bad old gaskets
So how much power did you pick up? Dyno the car yet?
viperrt96
Enthusiast
We're guessing close to 500 at the rear wheels. It's definitely not the same car. I can't wait to run it in the 1/4 mile soon. I was going to run it yesterday at IRP here but the rain came.
Jay Herbert
Enthusiast
...Looking into why it leaked (in most cases they leak outside the block-as mine did) my engine builder said most of the problem was neglected coolant. Neglected coolant means high PH that becomes acidic and that's what eats the old gaskets up...
My point: There is nothing wrong with the old ones! I saved $900 (sorry $780 at Tators) I spent my money elsewhere.
Flame away bench wrenchers
Sorry, the old gasket material will fail. Just a matter of how long it will be before it happens. The fact That Vipers take a little longer (in calendar time) to get 34K miles in your case was the only saving grace here...
Your engine builder is only partly correct... the reason for the failure of these gaskets is the thin section between the coolant passage and the outside edge of the head combined with mechanical stress between one fase of the gasket and the other.
The block and head expand and contract at different rates as the they warm up and cool down, the relative movement fails the gasket material via fatigue. Will the material fail faster when the coolant accelarates the gaske materials deterioration? Yes. Will the gasket fail from mechanical stress even if the coolant is changed regularly? Yes... it will just take a little longer
.ROCKET62
Has Left the Room!
Well then call me dumb
I put the old style on this (my) motor this last winter. No problems here! While my originals started to leak this last fall. It took 8yrs and 34k miles to do so. Looking into why it leaked (in most cases they leak outside the block-as mine did) my engine builder said most of the problem was neglected coolant. Neglected coolant means high PH that becomes acidic and that's what eats the old gaskets up. This motor has .060 off of the heads (compression now around 10.5:1-stock was 9:1) and some major head porting and polishing, cam, 1.7 roller rockers,65mm accufabs,borla headers(old style),randomtech 3" cat back exhaust,blah, blah This car runs bad a$$!
My point: There is nothing wrong with the old ones! I saved $900 (sorry $780 at Tators) I spent my money elsewhere.
Flame away bench wrenchers
DUMB, DUMBER, DUDE - you are the DUMBEST! As others above have stated, the $780 was for the complete gasket set - not just the head gaskets - so you really didn't save $780. Secondarily, any money you may have saved by going cheap on the old style gaskets will be eaten up in labor and headaches WHEN you have to replace the old style gaskets in the future - you may be lucky and get another 34k miles - but then again, you may not and have to replace them at 9K, 15K, or who knows when - but many including me - (especially after seeing the new style gasket compared to the old paper gasket) beleive that is is not really a matter of if they will fail - but when they will fail.
This may not matter to you if you sell your Viper - but I'm sure you'll tell the new buyer that you used the old head gaskets when you had them replaced
!viperrt96
Enthusiast
DUMB, DUMBER, DUDE - you are the DUMBEST! As others above have stated, the $780 was for the complete gasket set - not just the head gaskets - so you really didn't save $780.
[/QUOTE]
I expected this type of response. I even hesitated to post just for the sake of defending myself and arguing the facts.
Fact: Yes the new gaskets are better! MLS style (multi layer steel) I won't argue
Fact: Can you use the old style? Yes! But then again why would you? Right? Just to save money? And mostly that's why you are calling me dumb Right? Read on then
Well, do you really think I care about $780 No! I can afford it believe it or not. My engine builder who's resume is longer than anyone I know. He's been building engines for over 30yrs. He's worked on everything from USAC,Nascar,Top Fuel,Indy cars just to name a few. He was a leading engineer/builder at Indy Cyl head (big into Mopar drag racing if you don't know who they are) and his own drag car holds several records here and he is leading the points now locally. Do I need to say anymore about this guy? To make this thing even funnier is, he had never done a viper before. I live here in Indy and work near Gasoline alley (business district of nothing but race teams and racing related)I was asking around to see if anyone around here had done Viper work. This guy simply said "They can't be that special or different" considering what this guy works on everyday I agreed.
Now that you have a little history on my engine builder here comes the part where we discussed head gaskets. I will leave out all the facts on the buildup to save reading time here and possibly to prevent any further discussion from those that know it all. While discussing reshaping the combustion chamber and milling the heads for the slight bump up on compression. I told him I would order the new style so we would know gasket thickness for figuring the final compression ratio. He simply told me to hold off and let him do some researching. He made his several close contacts (Cometic,SCE is the ones I could remember- there were many more) and He said No one in the industry (he knows more than most) made what he called " street gaskets" some people made copper gaskets for the GenI but no MLS(multi layered steel). He said he could use the copper but for everyday street driven he didn't recommend because they are basically shims and have very little sealing properties. Simply put whoever makes the new GenI gasket Dodge sells has propriety rights and That's why they can ask $900 for the set(I think they sell the new head gaskets individually for around $300pc) I still said no Big deal... I'll buy them.
So (finally).......Here comes why I used the old ones. He was told by one of his close contacts (in the gasket industry) that the old one would work fine if you worked on one of the heads flaw. He would not tell me who he talked to. (Whoever it was he talked to is where he bought the old set from)The coolant crossover passage is under the exhaust port (of course) but when it runs between cylinders it (from the factory) gets most of the exhaust (heat) gas directed straight at it. When he ported the exhaust he said it would help redirect the airflow away from that shelf (lack of a better word) and that would help it stay cooler in that area. Now....... I did insist that I still wanted to use the new style but he just said "Save your money" and I guarantee you these gaskets will not fail. Now did I believe him? Well....let’s just say we had built up a relationship over the months and I trust him. He has guaranteed me he would buy me the new gaskets and do the job himself if these failed. I jokingly said for how long? He said for as long as you own the car. If his word is anything like how this car runs now. I believe him.
I will post my Bottom line numbers as soon as I get a dyno run in and a run in at IRP. Numbers are numbers right?
[/QUOTE]
I expected this type of response. I even hesitated to post just for the sake of defending myself and arguing the facts.
Fact: Yes the new gaskets are better! MLS style (multi layer steel) I won't argue
Fact: Can you use the old style? Yes! But then again why would you? Right? Just to save money? And mostly that's why you are calling me dumb Right? Read on then
Well, do you really think I care about $780 No! I can afford it believe it or not. My engine builder who's resume is longer than anyone I know. He's been building engines for over 30yrs. He's worked on everything from USAC,Nascar,Top Fuel,Indy cars just to name a few. He was a leading engineer/builder at Indy Cyl head (big into Mopar drag racing if you don't know who they are) and his own drag car holds several records here and he is leading the points now locally. Do I need to say anymore about this guy? To make this thing even funnier is, he had never done a viper before. I live here in Indy and work near Gasoline alley (business district of nothing but race teams and racing related)I was asking around to see if anyone around here had done Viper work. This guy simply said "They can't be that special or different" considering what this guy works on everyday I agreed.
Now that you have a little history on my engine builder here comes the part where we discussed head gaskets. I will leave out all the facts on the buildup to save reading time here and possibly to prevent any further discussion from those that know it all. While discussing reshaping the combustion chamber and milling the heads for the slight bump up on compression. I told him I would order the new style so we would know gasket thickness for figuring the final compression ratio. He simply told me to hold off and let him do some researching. He made his several close contacts (Cometic,SCE is the ones I could remember- there were many more) and He said No one in the industry (he knows more than most) made what he called " street gaskets" some people made copper gaskets for the GenI but no MLS(multi layered steel). He said he could use the copper but for everyday street driven he didn't recommend because they are basically shims and have very little sealing properties. Simply put whoever makes the new GenI gasket Dodge sells has propriety rights and That's why they can ask $900 for the set(I think they sell the new head gaskets individually for around $300pc) I still said no Big deal... I'll buy them.
So (finally).......Here comes why I used the old ones. He was told by one of his close contacts (in the gasket industry) that the old one would work fine if you worked on one of the heads flaw. He would not tell me who he talked to. (Whoever it was he talked to is where he bought the old set from)The coolant crossover passage is under the exhaust port (of course) but when it runs between cylinders it (from the factory) gets most of the exhaust (heat) gas directed straight at it. When he ported the exhaust he said it would help redirect the airflow away from that shelf (lack of a better word) and that would help it stay cooler in that area. Now....... I did insist that I still wanted to use the new style but he just said "Save your money" and I guarantee you these gaskets will not fail. Now did I believe him? Well....let’s just say we had built up a relationship over the months and I trust him. He has guaranteed me he would buy me the new gaskets and do the job himself if these failed. I jokingly said for how long? He said for as long as you own the car. If his word is anything like how this car runs now. I believe him.
I will post my Bottom line numbers as soon as I get a dyno run in and a run in at IRP. Numbers are numbers right?
Viperrt96, Sounds like you made an informed decision you are comfortable with.
You might want to ask your builder though. Does he know about the history of the crossover gaskets leaking and the thermostat bolts leaking? Did he RTV both when he installed? Easy to do now if your intake is still off.
You might want to ask your builder though. Does he know about the history of the crossover gaskets leaking and the thermostat bolts leaking? Did he RTV both when he installed? Easy to do now if your intake is still off.
viperrt96
Enthusiast
I put most of the motor back together. I did use RTV on the crossover. I had to do some machining to it since we took .060" off of the heads. It ended up a nice match and no leaks so far.
Funny thing was we put the heads on to match port the intake. I always thought match porting was taking the gasket and porting to that and that meant they would mate right? Wrong was I. When we reassembled the factory alignment was way off. We anticipated the .060" but overall it was pretty bad. He had to do some major porting to realign everything.
I felt comfortable in my decision to use the old style. I know I will always hear it's just a matter of time but nothing is a guarantee. I know of 6 GenI owners around here locally. Miles range from 4k to over 60k. All of them are running on the factory gaskets. I'm the first victim I know of. I've stopped at Fletcher (dodge dealer) a year ago or so and looked at another 96 (genI) with 28k (I think it was) and it had never been replaced either. So while the head gaskets may be a problem I don't think it is of epidemic proportions, just a know problem. I would be willing to bet over 70% of the GenI's running today are still on the factory head gaskets. Just my guess but who knows.
Funny thing was we put the heads on to match port the intake. I always thought match porting was taking the gasket and porting to that and that meant they would mate right? Wrong was I. When we reassembled the factory alignment was way off. We anticipated the .060" but overall it was pretty bad. He had to do some major porting to realign everything.
I felt comfortable in my decision to use the old style. I know I will always hear it's just a matter of time but nothing is a guarantee. I know of 6 GenI owners around here locally. Miles range from 4k to over 60k. All of them are running on the factory gaskets. I'm the first victim I know of. I've stopped at Fletcher (dodge dealer) a year ago or so and looked at another 96 (genI) with 28k (I think it was) and it had never been replaced either. So while the head gaskets may be a problem I don't think it is of epidemic proportions, just a know problem. I would be willing to bet over 70% of the GenI's running today are still on the factory head gaskets. Just my guess but who knows.
SNAKE BITE
Viper Owner
My 94 had gaskets go bad at 8 years old and 11,000 miles.
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