Old Problem........Now my Problem !....... Damn Head Gasket !

[viperrt96]

OK.........I use to hear that there were only two types of Gen I motors. Those that have had head gaskets replaced and those that will get head gaskets replaced. I use to pride myself as one of those who that will never happen to. I no longer can say that. My 96RT with just 34k went yesterday. Luckily for me there's no other damage (as far as we can tell right now). It did however start to seep in a cylinder. No coolant in the oil and when we started to tear into it I noticed some small staining right at that cylinder just where the head meets the block. So.....

The reason for my post! I've read many a prior post about this subject so I know a little. I also did a search but I have a few more questions. If anyone can answer these questions I would appreciate it.

We called our favorite parts guy and the replacement mopar part# he gave us is 4626640-AD. He says best he can tell it's a kit. He doesn't know how much of a kit it is so I'm asking. I would think for the price of this kit that it comes with new cylinder head bolts and all gaskets needed for the job. Does it? We don’t know. He did say that they were three layer metal gaskets. Are they thicker and if so will it change my compression (lower) ratio? If so can I mill the heads to get some of it back? How much? I would assume you usually always slightly mill the heads so you get a true straight surface. IF I can mill the heads then how much? Stock is 9.1:1 - can I go 9.5:1 or 10:1? Any horsepower gain by raising the compression that much. I have some mods.

Summary of some of my questions
1.Is 4626640-AD the Kit I need? Any other options (brand) I don't know about?
2.Is the Kit complete (pricey so I'm guessing head bolts come with it)?
3.New gasket design changes my compression ratio?
4.Can I mill the heads (I would like to) or do I need to mill the heads?

Please chime in if I'm forgetting something here.

I have a very reputable machine (performance) shop I've used many times before. I haven't talked to him yet. That's basically because I know he has never worked on a viper motor before. In the past he's always asked me if I wanted to tear it down and have him massage the heads. I know these heads can't be very difficult. Simple pushrod two valves per cylinder head right. I guess what I'm trying to say here is while I got this apart I wouldn't mind getting a few more ponies out of her. I don't however want to turn this into a 10k mod for only a 50-75hp gain. Heck I'll just supercharge it for less than that.

 

[ruckdr]

You have email.

 

[Newport Viper]

ruckdr

Please share

 

[viperrt96]

Thanks RUCKDR. I hope you don't mind the fact I'm posting the pics and email you sent me. It's exactly the great kind of news I needed to hear. I'm sure it will help ease the minds of many

[image]http://gallery.viperclub.org/showphoto.php/photo/8201/sort/1/cat/500/page/1[/image]

[image]http://gallery.viperclub.org/showphoto.php/photo/8200/sort/1/cat/500/page/1[/image]

[image]http://gallery.viperclub.org/showphoto.php/photo/8199/sort/1/cat/500/page/1[/image]

RUCKDR:Replied

I had the head gaskets on mine done last winter, and the metal gasket is the correct replacement (same as Gen 2). I also had the heads surfaced to match the head combustion chamber volume of the Gen 2 (cc), and therefore the Gen 2 compression which is about 9.6-9.7. What is the combustion chamber volume (cc), you ask; well unfortunately I don't know, but the Viper mechanics can get it. I think it was worth it, the engine just seems snappier, and pulls hard. I don't know what mods you have, but I have:
Corsa cat back with stock cats,
smooth tubes and filters,
increased compression to Gen 2,
stock late model tube headers ( from 1999 and up (I think, maybe 1998)).
I pulled 417.4 HP and 472.6 TORQUE, at the rear wheels. I think it was worth it.

 

[viperrt96]

I can never post pics on here successfully. Only been able to do it once.

 

[Qualitywires.com]

 

[ViperJoe]

did you call Jon @ PartsRack?

 

[garolittle]

did you call Jon @ PartsRack?

Agreed. Call Jon B.

 

[Bill B]

Call Jon B I just did this last month. He was cheaper by nearly $300! Gen one gaskets ARE NOT THE SAME AS GEN 2. So no substitutions. The kit will run you about $650. It has all of the gaskets that you will need. I doesn't include head bolts. ARP makes a kit, not the one they have listed as fitting 92-02 Gen 1 head bolts are longer than gen 1. You need to sent them the measurements and they will match them.
Hope this helps.

 

[VIPER1996]

I have done this twice, my 94 and 96. The kit doesn't include head bolts. I used my originals on both jobs. Mill the heads 5 thousands and you will be ok without milling the intake. The kit went up in price from the first time I did it. I think they told me about $900 last time. I just called Arrow and got the stuff from them a lot cheaper. If your handy in the garage you can handle this job. Piece of cake. I cringe everytime I hear somebody paying $1800 to $2600 to have this done. There's realistically $250 worth of parts, fluids and milling. Then 8 labor hours to do the job according to the book. That's $480 in labor. Show me why anyone could justify charging us more than that. Can you say Viper Tax.

 

[ruckdr]

Viperrt96,
Thanks for posting, I just didn't want to take the time to upload the pictures last night.

Bill B,
Yes, the head gaskets are not the SAME as Gen 2, but are metal; I meant to say LIKE the Gen 2 (in material)

Yes, contact JonB: www.partsrack.com
[email protected], phone: 360-837-3937

Good luck,

 

[Bill B]

Don, That wasn't directed at anyone. In another thread someone stated that they had used Gen 2 gaskets on a Gen 1 motor. I was just stating( ok yelling ) to drive home the point. They, the Gen 2's are about 1/2 the cost of Gen 1 gaskets so some may be swayed by the price to get the wrong kit.

 

[95Viper]

Viper1996, Arrow sells the same head gasket kit? How much? Is the $250 you mention above on top of that?

 

[VIPER1996]

I bought all my gaskets from them separate. Other than the head gaskets the rest of them should be had at a parts store. Although I did have them send me what I needed. You won't need valve cover gaskets if your careful take the valve cover's off. Those are expensive. I don't remember the exact cost at Arrow but it was about a 3rd of the dealer price.

 

[Bill B]

Problem is as of last month Arrow won't sell them because they are in short supply.
Here is the email:
Hello Bill,

We only have a few in stock for our rebuilds, It has been very hard for us
to get parts from Daimler Chrysler so we are not selling any to the public.

I'm sure you have tried your dealer but if not that is my only suggestion.

Dale

 

[VIPER1996]

There was only 1 set in stock anywhere when I did my 96 last fall. Thats why I had to go to Arrow and get them separate.

 

[viperrt96]

I wasn't able to make any calls today. I had to go trailer my car home. It was at a friends shop and since it's going to be down for a while. I'm thinking of doing some of the mods ruckdr mentioned. This is going to take additional time so I'm in no hurry.

It's all about research now. Who's done what and what did they get out of it. I know the stock valves are 1.92 (intake) and 1.58 (exhaust). The parts guy says Mopar sells valves that are 2.02 and 1.60. Anyone know about these ? Or are they aftermarket ? I know with some bigger valves, porting and getting my compression around 9.5:1 to 10:1 should yield me no less than a 50HP gain. It's worth it for no more than I got to do now. I will post progress and pics along the way. It should serve as notice to all Gen I's that it will probably and eventually happen to you. Head Gaskets that is. Thanks

 

[viperrt96]

Check this out !

Head gasket for sale - Viper!

Bad thing is it's the old style!

 

[Jack B]

The bolts on the Gen1 are torque to yield, which means they have been tightened beyond or close to their elastic limit. The Gen2's can be reused because you don't take them anywhere near their tensile strength. In short, you are rolling the dice by reusing the Gen1 head bolts. Save a couple hundred now, maybe spend a couple thousand later.

 

[ruckdr]

viprtrt96,
Looking at the head gaskets you found on Ebay; they look like the old 'fiber' type, which is probably what you have now that leak.
Not sure; Anyone else ??

Later,

 

[viperrt96]

The bolts on the Gen1 are torque to yield, which means they have been tightened beyond or close to their elastic limit. The Gen2's can be reused because you don't take them anywhere near their tensile strength. In short, you are rolling the dice by reusing the Gen1 head bolts. Save a couple hundred now, maybe spend a couple thousand later.

Jack B

I have the factory manual for my 96 and while I wont dispute your claim. The manual never states to use new bolts. I read both removal and installation. It only says

Caution: Cylinder head bolts are coated, DO NOT OIL.

In fact I read it front to back in hopes it would refer to the upgrade (new style gaskets)I'm sure by 1996 Dodge knew they had a problem with these. Must be a service bulletin for dealerships. I don't know.

 

[garolittle]

viprtrt96,
Looking at the head gaskets you found on Ebay; they look like the old 'fiber' type, which is probably what you have now that leak.
Not sure; Anyone else ??

Later,

I feel sorry for the guy the buys those gaskets.

 

[VIPER1996]

The bolts on the Gen1 are torque to yield, which means they have been tightened beyond or close to their elastic limit. The Gen2's can be reused because you don't take them anywhere near their tensile strength. In short, you are rolling the dice by reusing the Gen1 head bolts. Save a couple hundred now, maybe spend a couple thousand later.

You are probably right! I have built several small block mopars over the years and would never re-use a head bolt. After checking into the Viper deal and talking to a few techs that have done the job they all said re-use them?? I haven't had any problems yet, but who knows. It is generally not a good idea to re-use head bolts.

 

[95Viper]

I've been searching the board and have mixed findings:
Chrysler part number is 04626640AC $625 cdn
Part #5245157BA MSRP $102.00 Each

What is the Mopar part number(s) for the complete head gasket kit? Gen1 specific. Maybe one for Tator.
- Gen1 Upper end gasket kit
- Gen1 Head gaskets
- Gen 1 head bolts

 

[viperrt96]

95viper

The Gen I bolt part number I have is 6034952 list for $6.45 each
The 4626640-AD is the upgraded kit number I was given. That's why I posted here. I wanted to make sure that was the right one and what came with it. I had the 5245157 also - much cheaper (but for that price they must be the old style) Funny thing is I think the old are still available. Why would you continue to sell a bad head gasket set then sell a upgrade version as well.

 

[Jack B]

To clarify the head bolt choices again. The Gen1 and Gen2 Bolts are not interchangeable. The Gen2 bolts can be reused since you do not take them anywhere near their max tensile strength and you are always in the elastic yield range. The Gen1 bolts are taken over the edge of their elastic yield and into the plastic region. That is a point where crystalline fatigue sets in.

Merely looking at this fastener from a material science aspect, they shouldn't be reused. Try and take a 1/4-20 bolt and take it past its rated torque by 25%, the head will rotate more than the body. Would you trust that bolt a second time for a critical application. That is no different than reusing a Gen1 bolt. We should have a metallurgist somewhere in the ranks - where are you metal man.