Once again Arrow vs T&D's

[SmokinV10]

Once again Arrow vs T&D\'s

Ive done some searching on this subject and most of the threads had some repetitive info, but never quite answered the question. Which is really better? T&D's at twice the price, or Arrow? I have heard of crowers dropping valves because they arnet shaft mounted. Arrows are shaft mounted by the pair per cylinder. And T&D's are the most robust but at a substantial cost increase. So.....
1) I have heard of some members dropping valves. How is this possible with arrows if they are shaft mounted in pairs? If they had a problem does anyone know if it is fixed?

2) T&D's are shaft mounted rockers as well. Both are billet. So whats the difference?

3) What length pushrod should I use with a 99 GTS with a June build date? With arrows? With T&D's.

Thanks everyone in advance for your help on this subject

 

[SmokinV10]

Re: Once again Arrow vs T&D\'s

bump

 

[King GTS]

Re: Once again Arrow vs T&D\'s

T&D's!!! I had Arrows & I ended up on the side of the road, broken down, in the heat, waiting for a tow truck!

I had a good buddy, not 1 month ago, that had arrows and they literally broke right in front of me in a parking lot! All of the sudden his engine sounded like someone threw a dumbbell in it - just like mine did. Arrows totally ****! And their cheap! I would never reccomend them!

 

[Fred(DrivingSchool)Kinder]

Re: Once again Arrow vs T&D\'s

The Le Mans winning motors had T&D's!

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

Re: Once again Arrow vs T&D\'s

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fred(DrivingSchool)Kinder:
The Le Mans winning motors had T&D's!

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's all the proof I need.

 

[MadMaxx]

Re: Once again Arrow vs T&D\'s

Prepare for conflicting opinions

MM

 

[9 seconds]

Re: Once again Arrow vs T&D\'s

I've never even heard of T&D problems but I've seen a couple of Arrow failures. It's your money, though.

 

[Doug Supercharged Vipers]

Re: Once again Arrow vs T&D\'s

Here's a little info I pulled up from one of my prior posts. Hope this helps....

The stock Viper rocker arms are a stamped piece of steel to change the up/down movement into valve opening and closing. The ratio between the pushrod movement and the amount of valve opening is 1.6:1. Hence, if the pushrod were to move one inch the valve stem would move 1.6 inches. T&Ds (roller rockers) use needle bearings to reduce friction, and tip rollers to eliminate valve guide side loading. These expensive forgings make accurate ratios and thus more accurate valve timing. The available ratio from utilizing the T&Ds are 1.6:1 or 1.7:1. The difference between 1.6 and 1.7 is .032" more lift. And BTW. Shaft rockers are far superior to stud mounted rocker arms, they provide better rocker arm geometry and make for a more rigid valve train.

Overview:

Apparently, the Arrow's (stud mounted rockers with a single common shaft) have been revised from their earlier production pieces, so I cannot rule-out their structural integrity without more data on their current status. You may want to gather more feedback on them from other's who are currently using the new and improved parts. Their price appears attractive, but shaft mounted rockers (T&Ds) WILL provide for the most ridged valvetrain. Suffice to say, if indeed the Arrows are improved from their prior status, may be utilized for lower horsepower applications unless proven otherwise.

Never assume replacing the rocker arms requires a certain length pushrod. Have a trained mechanic check valve-geometry to make certain the geometry is "on target." Proper valvetrain geometry is a crucial part of your engines performance. Improper geometry will also lead to valve guide failure in no time. Now, which pushrods to use? The stock ones! Unless your utilizing a higher lift cam with higher spring rates, (I wouldn't worry about pushrod deflection or acoustics) guide plates etc..., the stock pushrods provide a weak-link in the event of valve-float, ESPECIALLY on a street car application with street tires for the weekend warrior

. With the replacement of rocker arms, you may use used pushrods under two conditions: Check pushrods for straightness by rolling on a flat surface. If you suspect a pushrod is bent, check it with a 0.008-in feeler gauge. If the gauge fits, don't try to straighten the pushrod, replace it! With the installation of new rocker arms, flip the pushrods end for end -- wear at the rocker arm end extends much father around the rocker arm then does the lifter end due to the higher angular movement of the rocker arm. This will have the effect similar to installing new pushrods.

Best of Luck!

Doug Levin

 

[SmokinV10]

Re: Once again Arrow vs T&D\'s

I talked to the guys at Arrow today. They informed me that they have fixed the problem. They said it was a bad set of adjusters that went out. When the adjusters that supplied the pre-load failed so did the assembly. They also said that they have many sets out there with the improvements that are doing fine. Anyone have feedback?

 

[Tom Welch]

Re: Once again Arrow vs T&D\'s

I love em, and who can you trust more to cover any damages from product problems than the company who warranties your Viper engine?

What more is there to discuss on this subject?

Tom
Http://btrviper.com

 

[SmokinV10]

Re: Once again Arrow vs T&D\'s

See I was almost convinced, but this is the kind of response which makes me scared to come back a month from now and post "you guys told me so". But then a few reputable tuners have recommended this as a good product.....supposedly fixed...hmmm

 

[Bad_Byte]

Re: Once again Arrow vs T&D\'s

IMHO... It's easy to say some product *****, but to say why or what is deficient is a whole different matter. I have been down this road before.

Installed Arrow's a few thousand miles ago and no problems to report sir! Just ensure you use loctite on the adjusters and the proper pushrod length. It's not magic.

 

[Mike H]

Re: Once again Arrow vs T&D\'s

I bought the Arrow rockers for my race viper. I then put them next to a set of T&D rockers.
Anyone want to buy a set of Arrow rockers? Once I saw the difference up close and how they mount, my race motors only get T&D's. I do think for an everyday once in a while drive Viper, the Arrow rockers should be fine, but in hour long race conditions the T&& D's are built better.

 

[Mike Brunton]

Re: Once again Arrow vs T&D\'s

Smokin,

I would not put alot of faith in what Arrow said. I broke TWO B&M shifters. I talked to others on here who had the same problem. When I called B&M they acted like they had never heard of the problem. When I showed them the proof, they said "Oh yeah well we had a bad set of welds from a subcontractor but they are all fixed now". I do alot of metal work and I can tell you the story I got was BS. That is NOT what happened. What happened is there was a design flaw that they later fixed.

Now, I doubt Arrows is going to say "well, yeah we had alot of them break and apparently Bob our engineer didn't realize what the deflective loads were on the shaft so we made it 10% fatter and so far nobody else has broken one". So how do you KNOW that what they say is correct?

Also, if they had a design flaw, I'm SURE Arrows has contact all previous buyers and extended an offer for a free upgrade, right? RIGHT? I bet they haven't.

My opinion would be - if you're spending the money on rockers, and the installation cost, are the T&D's THAT much more money? It's not like they are 5x the price.. and if you get them, you'll always have that concern in the back of your head whether they will break or not. Will Arrow back up their product re-design with a money-back guarantee and offer to repair your engine in the event of failure? Or are they just spouting off without backing it up with a solid commitment???