One racer's quote... "It's not a real car if you've not afraid of it".

[Bruce H.]

Hi Bruce,

The fact that you have three track day cars now is enough for me to tell that the Viper is the one for you....

Todd,

Thank you very much for those detailed comments, and the great review linked to on the other forum. I probably won't be able to decide with complete certainty which model will best suit my needs until I'm about to order as performance features and options could change at any time, and already have with the deletion of the Track Pack. I've heard rumblings that more is coming soon. A greater number of DSC and suspension modes would be a good thing, and any improvement in ride quality that doesn't sacrifice much performance would be also welcomed. Btw, I posted a track video of my XKR at a recent private lapping day where I was discussing my plans to go Viper and Rich RW99 jumped in with his strong recommendation...perhaps based in part on your track experiences.

Thanks again,

Bruce

 

[VENOM V]

Todd,

Thank you very much for those detailed comments, and the great review linked to on the other forum. I probably won't be able to decide with complete certainty which model will best suit my needs until I'm about to order as performance features and options could change at any time, and already have with the deletion of the Track Pack. I've heard rumblings that more is coming soon. A greater number of DSC and suspension modes would be a good thing, and any improvement in ride quality that doesn't sacrifice much performance would be also welcomed. Btw, I posted a track video of my XKR at a recent private lapping day where I was discussing my plans to go Viper and Rich RW99 jumped in with his strong recommendation...perhaps based in part on your track experiences.

Thanks again,

Bruce

Interesting, Rich was just telling me that he's thinking about adding an XKR to his garage. Beautiful machine, one of my favorites.

Do you have a link to the XKR track day? I'd love to see it.

Todd

 

[VIPER GTSR 91]

Respect the car rather than fear. But fear the contender in front of you (if you are not already in front) making a mistake.

 

[JAY]

Works for me , it also applies to 2 wheels, especially when you ride the Dragon !

 

[Bruce H.]

Todd,

It was a private day organized by a PCA chief instructor for club racers, instructors and friends. Many 911 GT3 and GT3 RS, and run at Le Circuit Mont Tremblant, a beautiful former Gran Prix track set into the Laurentian Mountains in Quebec. The camera car is driven by a friend who rubs shoulders with Ralph G and Randy P while racing...both of whom are also recommending the Viper TA for my needs!

This was from my second session of the day where I was still running a pretty conservative line, and remarkably didn't get passed by a half dozen GT3s!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZjsLMr_tn_A&feature=youtu.be

Bruce

 

[Nine Ball]

Bruce, that might be the most scenic track I've seen. Nice!

 

[VENOM V]

Todd,

It was a private day organized by a PCA chief instructor for club racers, instructors and friends. Many 911 GT3 and GT3 RS, and run at Le Circuit Mont Tremblant, a beautiful former Gran Prix track set into the Laurentian Mountains in Quebec. The camera car is driven by a friend who rubs shoulders with Ralph G and Randy P while racing...both of whom are also recommending the Viper TA for my needs!

This was from my second session of the day where I was still running a pretty conservative line, and remarkably didn't get passed by a half dozen GT3s!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZjsLMr_tn_A&feature=youtu.be

Bruce

Makes me want to cut work and go drive! Nice run.

 

[PDCjonny]

I don't know, I will likely be testing that theory first hand. I drove a GT-R and fell for it's handling. It just has a butterface though. (But Her Face - for you geezers) One reason you see a lot of them for sale is because of the high number of lease turn-ins. Nissan leased the crap out of that car. And people buying $100K+ cars typically "trade-up" in a few years. The problem is, in order to truly trade up from a GT-R, you need to add a zero to the price tag.

The reason I want a GT-R is simple. I'm competitive. I want to have the fastest street car in town and never blow a launch. I want to eat every other car on the track, including those with drivers that have more skill than me. I want 800HP I can put to the ground at every light. I want easy bolt-ons and a PCM that is not locked. Am I a cheating? I really don't care.... FTW (For The Win - for you geezers)

I agree completely. If they could only package that performance in a more "race car" looking skin it would sell triple what it does now.

 

[Bruce H.]

Should mention the XKR is a bone stock 2010 5L S/C 510hp/460tq on street tires...and it just happened to come up for sale today along with these.

'93 MR2T

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'94 Supra TT

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[klamathpro]

.... And don't forget, there is always someone faster.

Yeah, my goal is to go so fast that one day I see my own tail lights in front of me.

 

[PilotaX]

I've raced for close to 20 years now and I honestly hadn't ever heard that quote. But I kind of like it, with the caveat that it has to scare me in a good way (with high limits and certain unique handling or power band characteristics) and not in a bad way (unsafe, poorly engineered, etc.)

I could see how the Viper might scare many people in a good way. It's actually nicely predictable on the track. But, it has some quirks and if you haven't spent a LOT of time intentionally dancing on the limits, it is one of those cars that can catch you by surprise and bite you. So in that sense, it fits the quote pretty well.

 

[Bruce H.]

In my case I think the car I'm the most afraid of, and drawn the most to track, is the one that's so controllable that I can "dance on the limits" all the way around the track, rather than being careful to stay back from that edge. I'll never forget the track day that I first experienced the mental driving state of "unconsciously competent". For those not familiar with the term, that's when you get into "the zone" to the point where your brain is processing all of the sensory inputs on a subconscious level, and where the driver's reactions are made much quicker than when performed at a conscious level.

The car was running its best, and I had got tire pressures dialled in perfectly by mid-day. One particular session started out normally, and I remember the track taking on an unusually smooth rhythm. It felt odd as I passed a couple of cars I had never been able to do before. At the end of the session I felt strange, almost like I had observed the session from the driver's seat as opposed to experiencing it in the normal way. Data-logging showed I had been running 2 seconds per lap faster than I had ever previously. In that session I had moved from the "consciously competent" state to "unconsciously competent". I've only experienced it since a few times, and only in the Supra that I got dialled in so well. If your mind is elsewhere focusing on an odd noise or something, or the car feels off in some way, then you're unlikely to be able to reach your ultimate ability. My MR2 has a tricky rear suspension quirk that you're ever focused on in some corner situations, and that's likely the reason that I've never experienced this in that car.

But if you have experienced this state, it is an addictive feeling that you want to experience again. And the reason it makes you a little afraid is that you know that dropping 2 seconds a lap off your normal best times is huge at once you've reached an advanced skill level, and you were driving closer to the edge than ever before. I recall a Baptist Minister driving a 911 GT3 saying that the faster he drives the closer he feels to God...and I guess in one way I've felt the same a few times now.

As far as the Viper goes, or perhaps all cars with such high limits, I don't know whether it's possible to get so comfortable at the limit that you could get this far into the zone...or whether you'd even want to. I guess it would depend on whether you're willing to accept that level of risk. Thoughts?

Bruce

 

[PeerBlock]

But if you have experienced this state, it is an addictive feeling that you want to experience again. And the reason it makes you a little afraid is that you know that dropping 2 seconds a lap off your normal best times is huge at once you've reached an advanced skill level, and you were driving closer to the edge than ever before. I recall a Baptist Minister driving a 911 GT3 saying that the faster he drives the closer he feels to God...and I guess in one way I've felt the same a few times now.

As far as the Viper goes, or perhaps all cars with such high limits, I don't know whether it's possible to get so comfortable at the limit that you could get this far into the zone...or whether you'd even want to. I guess it would depend on whether you're willing to accept that level of risk. Thoughts?

Considering that "fear" is our reaction to the unknown and things we cannot control, any car that requires driver control and concentration to achieve most of its full potential is going to press that button. Even if you, as a Viper owner, only manage to get 70-80% of the car's potential at the track, that remaining 20-30% reminds you that even if you think you're good, there's still a lot of room to improve.

On the contrary, a car that has a lot of driver aids, like the GT-R, have a relatively flat "skill progression" which means that even an average driver with little or no racing experience can drive the car close to its physical limits...knowing that if you mess up here and there, the car will pick up your slack. The motivation to push it further just isn't there because the overall driving experience feels more like a passenger experience.

It plays into the whole "rent vs own" thing - nobody washes a rental car. When "peak performance" is "given" to you courtesy of onboard computers, you know in the back of your mind that it's really not you driving that well - it's the car, and you're just along for the ride.

The Viper has none of that active nanny stuff aside from a fairly basic TCS and ESC implementation (which enhances your control rather than taking control away from you), so you have to be confident in yourself to drive it at a given level and you always know that if you lose focus you could lose control of the car...it's somewhat unforgiving in that regard and that's not a bad thing.

Is your name Lance Armstrong? Being competitive doesn't mean FTW, I mean ***?!?!?! Being competitive means embracing and enjoying the spirit of competition. Winning isn't everything, in fact, in life we often learn more from our failures than our successes. And don't forget, there is always someone faster.

Does anyone engage in competition with the expectation of losing? I don't think so. Winning is everything, but losing should not be viewed as a reason to give up - it should be viewed as motivation to get better. Even if someone never gets to #1, the constant effort to reach that position improves them.

 

[MtnBiker]

Considering that "fear" is our reaction to the unknown and things we cannot control, any car that requires driver control and concentration to achieve most of its full potential is going to press that button. Even if you, as a Viper owner, only manage to get 70-80% of the car's potential at the track, that remaining 20-30% reminds you that even if you think you're good, there's still a lot of room to improve.

On the contrary, a car that has a lot of driver aids, like the GT-R, have a relatively flat "skill progression" which means that even an average driver with little or no racing experience can drive the car close to its physical limits...knowing that if you mess up here and there, the car will pick up your slack. The motivation to push it further just isn't there because the overall driving experience feels more like a passenger experience.

It plays into the whole "rent vs own" thing - nobody washes a rental car. When "peak performance" is "given" to you courtesy of onboard computers, you know in the back of your mind that it's really not you driving that well - it's the car, and you're just along for the ride.

The Viper has none of that active nanny stuff aside from a fairly basic TCS and ESC implementation (which enhances your control rather than taking control away from you), so you have to be confident in yourself to drive it at a given level and you always know that if you lose focus you could lose control of the car...it's somewhat unforgiving in that regard and that's not a bad thing.



Does anyone engage in competition with the expectation of losing? I don't think so. Winning is everything, but losing should not be viewed as a reason to give up - it should be viewed as motivation to get better. Even if someone never gets to #1, the constant effort to reach that position improves them.

Great post regarding the driving skill, etc.

As for winning - I enter bicycle and triathlon races knowing I won't win, because frankly, I'm not the fittest guy out there (and never will be since I have a real job). But the fact that I don't win means nothing. I do, however, compete agrresively against those with whom I am closely ranked. They include some of my friends in the arena, and many who I don't personally know but consistently finish close to me. So, perhaps you could call it a race within a race, and that I enter to win the sub-race. But, honestly, the enjoyment for me doesn't have to come from standing on the podium (which I have done numerous times), but rather from the thrill of participation.

 

[VENOM V]

In my case I think the car I'm the most afraid of, and drawn the most to track, is the one that's so controllable that I can "dance on the limits" all the way around the track, rather than being careful to stay back from that edge. I'll never forget the track day that I first experienced the mental driving state of "unconsciously competent". For those not familiar with the term, that's when you get into "the zone" to the point where your brain is processing all of the sensory inputs on a subconscious level, and where the driver's reactions are made much quicker than when performed at a conscious level.

The car was running its best, and I had got tire pressures dialled in perfectly by mid-day. One particular session started out normally, and I remember the track taking on an unusually smooth rhythm. It felt odd as I passed a couple of cars I had never been able to do before. At the end of the session I felt strange, almost like I had observed the session from the driver's seat as opposed to experiencing it in the normal way. Data-logging showed I had been running 2 seconds per lap faster than I had ever previously. In that session I had moved from the "consciously competent" state to "unconsciously competent". I've only experienced it since a few times, and only in the Supra that I got dialled in so well. If your mind is elsewhere focusing on an odd noise or something, or the car feels off in some way, then you're unlikely to be able to reach your ultimate ability. My MR2 has a tricky rear suspension quirk that you're ever focused on in some corner situations, and that's likely the reason that I've never experienced this in that car.

But if you have experienced this state, it is an addictive feeling that you want to experience again. And the reason it makes you a little afraid is that you know that dropping 2 seconds a lap off your normal best times is huge at once you've reached an advanced skill level, and you were driving closer to the edge than ever before. I recall a Baptist Minister driving a 911 GT3 saying that the faster he drives the closer he feels to God...and I guess in one way I've felt the same a few times now.

As far as the Viper goes, or perhaps all cars with such high limits, I don't know whether it's possible to get so comfortable at the limit that you could get this far into the zone...or whether you'd even want to. I guess it would depend on whether you're willing to accept that level of risk. Thoughts?

Bruce

Very intriguing, I feel that I can dance on the limits with the Camaro and the C6 Corvettes comfortably. But I haven’t reached that state of unconsciously competent in any car yet. I think I'm close in the Camaro, but not yet in the Viper as I only have been on track with it for two days. I can drive the Viper very fast on the track, but the adrenaline is higher and the rush is more exciting in the Viper. I honestly think it will take me more time to get to that state in the Viper than the Camaro. It’s limits are higher and the stakes are higher as you can’t do a partial paint job with Stryker Red, so I drive more cautiously. Why didn’t I get a solid color? LOL. Plus, the Viper has a short wheel base and a low polar moment of inertia, which causes it to rotate more quickly when the back end steps out. So you have to be ready with quick hands and you must resist the temptation to lift off of the throttle abruptly. You can make mistakes in the Camaro or Vette and the car will forgive you, but the Viper will expect you to drive the car properly when you step over the edge or you may get into a fishtailing tank slapper. That said, it is wicked fast, just amazing, and fun as hell on the track. I’d love another Gen V owner to comment on their impressions at the track to see if they agree. The Camaro is my low-stress track car, I’m not going to stress over a few rock chips and it’s easy to repair, so I drive it as hard as I want.

I'm going back to Ron Fellows School for the third time in March, this time for a two-day private lesson with the lead instructor, and this time it won't be in the school's Vettes. It will be in my Viper, and the lesson will be custom designed to suit my goals. One of my primary goals is to purposely step over the edge with the Viper and learn how to drive the car with confidence when it does get squirrelly. That's second nature in the Vette and Camaro for me, but not yet the Viper. I’ll mention this state of unconsciously competent to my instructor, sounds like a worthy 5 year goal for me.

 

[MtnBiker]

I experienced the throttle lift consequence the last time at TWS coming out of turn 12. I was fortunate to not spin (it's a fairly high speed exit). It seems second nature to lift (why production cars are designed with understeer perhaps), and requires experience to keep the foot in the throttle. I think (can't actually recall the specific incident now several weeks later) the reason I lifted on the throttle was I felt I was carrying too much speed and was heading too wide on track out. So, what the heck does one do with that? Give it more gas to get more grip?

Venom V, are you using harnesses in your Viper?

 

[Bruce H.]

I experienced the throttle lift consequence the last time at TWS coming out of turn 12. I was fortunate to not spin (it's a fairly high speed exit). It seems second nature to lift (why production cars are designed with understeer perhaps), and requires experience to keep the foot in the throttle. I think (can't actually recall the specific incident now several weeks later) the reason I lifted on the throttle was I felt I was carrying too much speed and was heading too wide on track out. So, what the heck does one do with that? Give it more gas to get more grip?

Venom V, are you using harnesses in your Viper?

Yes, if you're going in to a corner too hot beyond the turn-in where you can no longer lift or brake without unbalancing the car then you may not have a choice but to keep the car balanced with just enough throttle to keep the rear end planted. You have to make a split second decision, and driving straight off with both feet in into a run-off area may be the best choice if there is a run-off, or if you think you can make it with a bit of throttle then just be prepared in case you have to drive off the track before track-out. If that happens you then need to straighten the wheel to drive off straight, and then brake to a complete stop so you can clear your head. The fear, and likelihood, is that if you get a front tire or two off the track onto a soft shoulder with the wheels turned that the car will re-enter the track, and as it does grab at the front and send the rear spinning...usually ending with the car bolting across the track into another car or to the other side and into a wall!

Running out of talent half way around a corner usually doesn't end well, and you can try to avoid that by using a slow-in, fast-out, late apex strategy. A car like the Viper with great brakes and exit power lets you do that, whereas lower powered "momentum" cars benefit from minimal braking and fastest cornering speeds.

Bruce

 

[bushido]

The viper is very much like a go kart. How it rotates quickly into a spin. I have had a couple situations in my ACR, where If it haven't been for karting. I probably would of crapped in my pants..

 

[VENOM V]

I experienced the throttle lift consequence the last time at TWS coming out of turn 12. I was fortunate to not spin (it's a fairly high speed exit). It seems second nature to lift (why production cars are designed with understeer perhaps), and requires experience to keep the foot in the throttle. I think (can't actually recall the specific incident now several weeks later) the reason I lifted on the throttle was I felt I was carrying too much speed and was heading too wide on track out. So, what the heck does one do with that? Give it more gas to get more grip?

Venom V, are you using harnesses in your Viper?

It's so true that it's second nature to lift, and I learned that bad habit in the Camaro because it's so forgiving. I'm trying to unlearn it. Lifting abruptly causes weight to transfer off of the rear tires, which then lose grip and allows the ass end to step out. What I try to do if I get sideways is maintain some throttle pressure, which transfers weight to the rear wheels. With weight on the rear tires, you get the traction you need to bring the car back under control. Then kind of do a drift under light throttle until you get it back under control, if that makes any sense. If I'm just too hot to make the corner, I'll just drive off the track as straight as I can, with no abrupt steering or braking, and slowly carefully try to bring it back on (assuming there's room to do so). Not sure if this fits your situation.

I don't have a harness yet, the seats in the Gen V are fantastic. It doesn't seem to need a harness to drive it well, you stay planted firmly with excellent side bolstering. However for safety, I would like to get a HANS-compatible harness one day. I have a herniated disk in my neck, so I need to protect it from whiplash in the event of an accident. Still trying to figure that out. The issue with the seats is that they would work well with a 4 point harness, but there are no holes for submarine straps. So I think a 4 point harness would be the best option, but still researching. I know a 6 point is the safest, but a 4 point harness with a HANS device should be a big improvement over the OEM 3 point belt.

 

[Bruce H.]

Here's a link that explains the Four Stages of Competence that applies to many learned skills. Some will have reached "Unconscious Competence" in other parts of their lives, and likely even have at times when driving on public roads where you're off daydreaming while under complete control of your car. But I can tell you it'll surely wig you out if it ever happens on the race track! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_stages_of_competence

And the quote was from Mike Skeen. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see him racing in a Viper one day ... http://www.mikeskeen.com/about/

Bruce

 

[MtnBiker]

Yes, if you're going in to a corner too hot beyond the turn-in where you can no longer lift or brake without unbalancing the car then you may not have a choice but to keep the car balanced with just enough throttle to keep the rear end planted. You have to make a split second decision, and driving straight off with both feet in into a run-off area may be the best choice if there is a run-off, or if you think you can make it with a bit of throttle then just be prepared in case you have to drive off the track before track-out. If that happens you then need to straighten the wheel to drive off straight, and then brake to a complete stop so you can clear your head. The fear, and likelihood, is that if you get a front tire or two off the track onto a soft shoulder with the wheels turned that the car will re-enter the track, and as it does grab at the front and send the rear spinning...usually ending with the car bolting across the track into another car or to the other side and into a wall!

Running out of talent half way around a corner usually doesn't end well, and you can try to avoid that by using a slow-in, fast-out, late apex strategy. A car like the Viper with great brakes and exit power lets you do that, whereas lower powered "momentum" cars benefit from minimal braking and fastest cornering speeds.

Bruce

Bruce, thank you. That was a very good explanation. And yes, my instructors have been getting me to come in slower and out with power because of the torque of the Viper. Thanks again!

 

[MtnBiker]

It's so true that it's second nature to lift, and I learned that bad habit in the Camaro because it's so forgiving. I'm trying to unlearn it. Lifting abruptly causes weight to transfer off of the rear tires, which then lose grip and allows the ass end to step out. What I try to do if I get sideways is maintain some throttle pressure, which transfers weight to the rear wheels. With weight on the rear tires, you get the traction you need to bring the car back under control. Then kind of do a drift under light throttle until you get it back under control, if that makes any sense. If I'm just too hot to make the corner, I'll just drive off the track as straight as I can, with no abrupt steering or braking, and slowly carefully try to bring it back on (assuming there's room to do so). Not sure if this fits your situation.

I don't have a harness yet, the seats in the Gen V are fantastic. It doesn't seem to need a harness to drive it well, you stay planted firmly with excellent side bolstering. However for safety, I would like to get a HANS-compatible harness one day. I have a herniated disk in my neck, so I need to protect it from whiplash in the event of an accident. Still trying to figure that out. The issue with the seats is that they would work well with a 4 point harness, but there are no holes for submarine straps. So I think a 4 point harness would be the best option, but still researching. I know a 6 point is the safest, but a 4 point harness with a HANS device should be a big improvement over the OEM 3 point belt.

More good experience shared, thank you. I too will be installing a harness.

 

[Bruce H.]

Bruce, thank you. That was a very good explanation. And yes, my instructors have been getting me to come in slower and out with power because of the torque of the Viper. Thanks again!

Something to consider...
I plan to take a car control school again that I found particularly good as a way to get accustomed to the Viper, as well as book a couple of events on the Driver Development Track at Mosport. That's a smaller and tighter track that was designed for the purpose of teaching, and has good level turf run-off areas if (when) you go off track. I was there last 10 years ago after doing a lot of mods on the Supra and wanted to establish its new limits before heading back out on the high-speed Grand Prix circuit. Another time I was on the DDT in the rain and that was a fantastic opportunity to play at the limit in a safe way. I think I could actually feel the front tire tread squirming feedback in the corners, and practiced inducing a little throttle over-steer and correction while driving like a hooligan. By the end of that day I had become very comfortable driving on a low grip surface, and that's been invaluable experience over the years, and may have saved me twice going into a corner with oil/coolant spilled through turn-in. I also did a winter school on ice and snow, but that wouldn't be available for guys in the south.

You just have to probe the limits to know where they are, how to react, and be comfortable there because you can find yourself there at just about any time with other cars on track spilling stuff, cutting you off going into a corner, not lifting off the throttle when you're passing approaching a corner, etc. And if that's not bad enough I keep hearing the car itself is trying to kill you

Bruce