Paddle Shift

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

How about fake paddles that don't shift just like the fake air opening on C6 Z06's hood?

We'll just stick some plastic paddles on both sides of the steering column by double sided 3M.

Not a bad idea but who will shift the car for them? They'll be fiddling with the fake paddles and the car won't move. And then they'll be whining about how the Viper paddles shifters ****.

 

[RS27J9A]

would radio controls on the steering wheel be too outragous to ask for?

yes.

 

[N2 Vipers]

Shhhh, don't tell the purist and Herb that lap times will drop with the paddle shifter. Flame suit on!

 

[INSOMNIAC]

How about fake paddles that don't shift just like the fake air opening on C6 Z06's hood?

We'll just stick some plastic paddles on both sides of the steering column by double sided 3M.

Not a bad idea but who will shift the car for them? They'll be fiddling with the fake paddles and the car won't move. And then they'll be whining about how the Viper paddles shifters ****.

Hey, they are right about that. Those Viper paddle shifters ****.

 

[rleminv]

Keep it raw, in your face and keep the "purists" happy and in the car. The reason I bought mine is that there's a ton of aftermarket performance and appearance stuff and just plain good engine building that can be done to the base car. I would never think of doing this to my other new performance cars, the Viper begs for it. Whether it's just new wheels, a short shifter and have fun or full tilt ***** mods, the car is perfect.

I am going to be installing the Racelogic Traction Control. Note, it's my car, my money and no one else has to subsidize my quirks. I believe Quaife has a race automatic transmission for the car, something like $12K or maybe more. If you want one, go pay for it and let me pay for what I want and let the "purists" pay for what they want.

Try to think of it as, first buy the starter car, then do whatever you want, just don't make me pay for something that belongs in a Jag, MB, or even Porsche. I've got one of those and I like it too, the Viper is just a different tool in my tool box.

The more DC attempts to be more inclusive by adding standard equipment to satify the sports luxury crowd or ??, the more exclusive it is for the guys who don't want it. Why would anyone want to exclude them from Viper ownership? I am willing to put the whole burden of tech improvements I think are important on my wallet. The car is what it is. Leave it alone!

 

[Mopar426]

How about fake paddles that don't shift just like the fake air opening on C6 Z06's hood?

We'll just stick some plastic paddles on both sides of the steering column by double sided 3M.

FYI The Z06 is just as fake as your Gen III there chief, in other words BOTH are functional,

If you want paddels buy a Vette or a Ferrari, don't ruin the Viper.

 

[INSOMNIAC]

How about fake paddles that don't shift just like the fake air opening on C6 Z06's hood?

We'll just stick some plastic paddles on both sides of the steering column by double sided 3M.

FYI The Z06 is just as fake as your Gen III there chief, in other words BOTH are functional,

If you want paddels buy a Vette or a Ferrari, don't ruin the Viper.

My GENIII has an airbox under that opening for air intake. Well, it used to. Now it has intercooler piping and blow off valves.

The Z06 has a black ugly plastic behind that opening on the hood that blocks everything. I stuck there my hand personally. The whole opening is blocked by that plastic. There's no way air would get in there through that. And if any air went in there, it'll be just hitting the ugly plastic radiator shroud. C6 Z06 breathes from underneath the front bumper not through that opening. Fake.

 

[DodgeViper01]

Wow this is heated!!!!

 

[Cris]

Well if the purists are in control why do we have 19 inch wheels that weigh like a truck, with NO performance tires available on the market. Or an oil system that requires you pay another $3000 for a comp coupe oil pan.

Or how about exhaust crossovers that add weight and improve the sound (at the loss of hp). How about differentials that need to be replaced because of such poor perormance on the track? How about the shift levers that are so tall they are obviously designed for the weak or infirmed, certainly not for an enthusiast. And how did the ash tray/cup holder fit in. Is that for the track?

How about an intake manifold that is compromised because of the wiper motor. Or vlave springs that can't keep good valve motion past 6050 rpm. And how about them powder metal connecting rods. I can go on and on if you wish. How did all these silly things get past Herb the magnificent?

Now fix these weak areas, make the car outperform a common corvette and you may get some of the purist vote.

Now please have Herb take a car out with a well designed ESP and determine if the car is faster.Same analogy as used for the ABS system. Or TC. Or paddle shift. Oh I see that increased performance is the logical reason for one and against the others. Please explain.

 

[Warfang]

Well if the purists are in control why do we have 19 inch wheels that weigh like a truck, with NO performance tires available on the market. Or an oil system that requires you pay another $3000 for a comp coupe oil pan.

...because the beancounters have been trying their darnest to make the Viper a car for the masses. Herb's doing his best, but he's just one man. Remember, the Krauts are in charge now.

 

[Warfang]

Wow this is heated!!!!

You post *****! How about your opinions instead of playing the sideline eyewitness? Join the brawl!

 

[Warfang]

Keep it raw, in your face and keep the "purists" happy and in the car. The reason I bought mine is that there's a ton of aftermarket performance and appearance stuff and just plain good engine building that can be done to the base car. I would never think of doing this to my other new performance cars, the Viper begs for it. Whether it's just new wheels, a short shifter and have fun or full tilt ***** mods, the car is perfect.

I am going to be installing the Racelogic Traction Control. Note, it's my car, my money and no one else has to subsidize my quirks. I believe Quaife has a race automatic transmission for the car, something like $12K or maybe more. If you want one, go pay for it and let me pay for what I want and let the "purists" pay for what they want.

Try to think of it as, first buy the starter car, then do whatever you want, just don't make me pay for something that belongs in a Jag, MB, or even Porsche. I've got one of those and I like it too, the Viper is just a different tool in my tool box.

The more DC attempts to be more inclusive by adding standard equipment to satify the sports luxury crowd or ??, the more exclusive it is for the guys who don't want it. Why would anyone want to exclude them from Viper ownership? I am willing to put the whole burden of tech improvements I think are important on my wallet. The car is what it is. Leave it alone!

Hey... a reasonable guy! I'm actually dying to try the Racelogic TC, and would consider installing one on an srtc once I get one. Before I got my GTS, I actually considered finding an automatic for it, but heck, I have 2 other cars that are automatics... having to "work" on your driving is so much more fun!

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

Well if the purists are in control why do we have 19 inch wheels that weigh like a truck, with NO performance tires available on the market. Or an oil system that requires you pay another $3000 for a comp coupe oil pan.

Or how about exhaust crossovers that add weight and improve the sound (at the loss of hp). How about differentials that need to be replaced because of such poor perormance on the track? How about the shift levers that are so tall they are obviously designed for the weak or infirmed, certainly not for an enthusiast. And how did the ash tray/cup holder fit in. Is that for the track?

How about an intake manifold that is compromised because of the wiper motor. Or vlave springs that can't keep good valve motion past 6050 rpm. And how about them powder metal connecting rods. I can go on and on if you wish. How did all these silly things get past Herb the magnificent?

Now fix these weak areas, make the car outperform a common corvette and you may get some of the purist vote.

Now please have Herb take a car out with a well designed ESP and determine if the car is faster.Same analogy as used for the ABS system. Or TC. Or paddle shift. Oh I see that increased performance is the logical reason for one and against the others. Please explain.

Intake manifolds and crossovers have nothing to do with driver skills. THAT'S what purists are most concerned with. Annoying as cupholders are they have no bearing on a driver's ability. They are just a whimpy addition to an otherwise in-your-face-no-[******] car.

 

[Mike Dolan]

In my newby opinion, when I want higher-tech I drive my Jaguar XKR, or XJR, both of which are higher-tech than my Viper. Or my trusty old XJS, which although lower-tech than the XKR, is higher-tech than my Viper. But that misses the point entirely, the Viper is for fun! Likewise I could buy a power boat, but I prefer my sailboat. Talk about low-tech - sailboats are really old-tech. Even the carbon-fiber/kevlar race boats still use sails, which were invented eon's before cars were even a pipe dream. To me the Viper is a pure, honest car, no electronic (synthetic)handling, traction control etc. (with the exception of ABS), it's about having fun. If people want to modify their cars, feel free, that's part of the fun. I don't think anyone would put a Paxton or turbo on a Ferrari or Lambo, they appeal to a different crowd.

As to whether a paddle shift would out-perform the current stick, that would largely depend upon the engineering resources that were applied to the task, and the skill level of the drivers. If it was a one-off design, I really wouldn't expect stellar performance, but people surprise me all the time.

Regards,
Mike Dolan

 

[INSOMNIAC]

I don't think anyone would put a Paxton or turbo on a Ferrari or Lambo, they appeal to a different crowd.

For some reason, that's true. Less than 0.1% of Ferrari and Lambo owners will supercharge or twin turbo their cars. No Demand - No Supply. No aftermarket forced induction kits for these cars anyway.

What is the % of untouched, not modified Vipers? Almost everybody modifies some part of the Viper. Can't help it.

How many different supercharger and twin turbo kits do we have for GEN2 and/or GEN3? Unfortunately not as much as the Corvette market, but still there are several choices out there.

 

[Andrew/USPWR]

If DC would just up the HP to 600+. They could add on all the comfort features they like to appeal to the masses, and still keep the purist happy.
Would the purist get pissed at the traction control and paddle shifters, if it’s putting out 640 hp from the showroom floor?

For me, I’d rather own a Ferrari than a Shelby Cobra. I love horse power but not at the expense of drivability and comfort. I think Dodge has blended the two together nicely and I hope they continue down the same path. We don’t need a GPS system in the Viper, but someday it’ll be standard.

....................Of course the GPS will also give 1/4 mile times, cornering G’s, HP, Torque, along with showing you were the closest Dunkin Doughnut shop is

 

[rleminv]

............ I don't think anyone would put a Paxton or turbo on a Ferrari or Lambo, they appeal to a different crowd...............

Regards,
Mike Dolan

I agree with the first part of this statement; the last part not at all. You might be suprised at the stables these guys here have.

Regarding your Jags, if you hang with that crowd and you know anyone that is interested in a '60 XK150 3.8 S coupe let me know. I really want to off the oil leaking, hard to shift, straight axle, screaming whining noisy beautiful *****. She can be all theirs for $60K. It's about halfway done and I have lost complete interest. An all aluminum "D" replica is for sale too. Serious only, not interested in talking much about them. Will never speak of them again here.

You would think with all the rods, bikes and sports cars there were and still are in the world I would have known better. Sorry guys, I know this is a Viper board. Just don't get to meet many of the "others".

[******] does this have to do with paddle shifters. Old age and short attention span. Time for bed.

What I said before!!!!

 

[Cris]

Okay, we are having a pretty good discussion on this topic, not specifically on paddle shift (which I abhor personally). If we listed all of the more common driver aids/conveniences that are not in line with a purist perspective we would have (my first shot at this):

Power steering
Power brakes
Power pedals
Power windows
Power trunk/hatch release
Air conditioning
Anti lock brakes

And a list of some we do not have:

Active handling
Traction control
Electronic noise cancellation (exhaust)
Electronic exhaust muffler bypass
GPS
Steering wheel radio control
Paddle shift
Automatic transmission

I am sure there are more in each category. To me one stands out. That is ABS. Clearly a driver aid which makes the car perform better for just about everyone. I cannot make a distinction from ABS to active handling or traction control. All are drivers aids, make the car perform better than without, and none fall into the purist regime. So why is ABS accepted and the others are not? I have a difficult time with that. Active handling and TC could be defeatable, making purist driving possible even with the option. ABS cannot due to safety reasons.

In defense of TC and active handling I believe they would help prevent some of the out of control situations that we have witnessed over time. Especially those resulting from inexperienced drivers. Personally, if equipped, I would have active handling engaged while on the street most of the time.

But, in regards to my previous rant, overall car performance is MORE important to me than the inclusion or exclusion of a driver aid. When we had no ABS we were embarassed in tests that included braking, as the Viper was inferior. Having a heavier car than the vette, with less driver aids and less conveniences, does not make sense. If they saved weight and made the Viper lighter then I would approve. But to be heavier and cruder is not acceptable.

 

[RS27J9A]

Adding TC and active handling will only make people think they are better drivers, making them rely on electronics instead of common sense and their own skill.

Adding electronic nannies does not make the car immune to physics and in some cases where the car gets upset makes the car harder to control for the driver.

 

[Janni]

Honestly - ABS adds a measure of "oh %$#*" security. You don't bang off the ABS at every turn, but it's there when you go in a little hot or you have a panic situation - but NONE of you use the ABS for normal everyday driving. It's also a great way to get the dynamic proportioning that you want to provide better balanced and 'flatter' braking.

Paddle shift takes the skill away. ABS is an enhancement and a safety net.

 

[Warfang]

I am sure there are more in each category. To me one stands out. That is ABS. Clearly a driver aid which makes the car perform better for just about everyone. I cannot make a distinction from ABS to active handling or traction control.

Figures.

ABS is an improvement on something the Viper always had... brakes. It never HAD TC, and it never should. Let's see if you Nannynags can get this straight... the "Purists" referred to here are purists of the Viper BRAND (refer to Herb's statement), not a purist of the round thing the cavemen invented, known as "THE WHEEL". ABS, power steering and such do NOT take away from the Viper driving experience, TC DOES. ABS is passive in that shortens the stopping distance, but does NOT alter the feel of the car significantly.

I can make your dream come true today... it's called Racelogic. Spend your OWN money. Don't be so generous on spending mine.

 

[madman]

... and the whining 'purists' killed the Viper. Hey 'purists', why don't you stop whining and build yourself Cobras? Strip it off a driver seat for all I care. Otherwise we are going to read following news (in a very near future):

"... and as a result of further restructuring and cutting off unprofitable divisions Daimler Chrysler decided to close a (Viper) production plant indefinitely ..."

Something's not right if the car's so perfect yet nobody is buying it.

 

[Cris]

Braking is something that the car does now. So ABS is an extension of something the car already does. Lets expand on that as your premise.

Active handling just uses the braking to independently brake a given wheel to improve control. If you had 4 brake pedals you could do the same thing (if you thought as fast as a computer).

Anti-lock braking just uses the braking to independently brake a given wheel to improve control. If you had 4 brake pedals you could do the same thing (if you thought as fast as a computer).

One improves the stopping ability and the other the transitional cornering ability. Both would engage only at the limits and be transparent at other times. Both would improve an emergency response. Both do something better than a driver can without the feature (thus a driver aid), and tend to minimize the difference between an experienced driver and a novice).

BTW both are active devices. They will independently actuate or release the brake at an individual wheel (or in the case of the Viper brakes the front wheels independently and the rear in unison - 3 channel ABS). They even use the same hardware for the most part. I really fail to see how ABS can be a purist feature and active handling cannot.

 

[wormdoggy]

Damn,,,,,,,,,,,vacation is a *****. Look at what you miss when you gone!!!

I like the Viper just the way it is. Any new gadgets and I would be forced to find another vehicle. It's one of the few vehicles still around that is developed on the fundamental principle that less is BETTER !

Thanks DC
Patrick

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

So why is ABS accepted and the others are not?

It was begrudgedly accepted. A non-ABS car cannot compete with an ABS car so there was little choice but to add it.

After tracking non-ABS for the past seven years and flat-spotting thousands of $ worth of tires I would LOVE for ABS to be removed from all the competition. Particularly those who have never raced without it.

Contraire to what Janni says, if I ever get a CC I'm kicking that ABS on every time I step on the pedal.

 

[SylvanSRT]

i have felt the abs kick on in more than a few occassions on the track in totally dry conditions. there are very few drivers who can out brake the abs system and they are going to become fewer and farther between now that most drivers are learning to drive with these systems. For the most part technology improves the breed, and purists in racing or the true spirit of competition should think that competition would make people strive to build the fastest best handling car that the available technology would allow. would i want tc, only if it is defeatable. would i want to get rid of abs, hell no. would i want audio controls on the steering wheel, it's one feature i'd really like to see added.

 

[rleminv]

It's the year 2010:

Viper has all the performance, bells and whistles everyone has been whining about. 933 HP, V-10, Active AWD that can be switched off for tracking, Paddle shift - called a V-ring. Unbeatable on the track the last time one was raced (2 years ago, for some reason no one can explain owners are not racing, but all the local Viper clubs have cocktails at 4:00PM every third Friday at the local private golf club, appropriate dress required). Looks like a wet dream with an attitude. A truly collectable car, guaranteed to appreciate. MSRP $197,436. Production is limited to 999 per year (one less just like Ferrari), It takes 2 years to get one IF you can get your name on a list because you owned one previously purchased from a Viper authorized Dodge dealer.

I get mine in about 2 months. When I get it I'll put it on the lift and drive it 25 miles per year. WE DID IT!

 

[Early93Viper]

... and the whining 'purists' killed the Viper. Hey 'purists', why don't you stop whining and build yourself Cobras? Strip it off a driver seat for all I care. Otherwise we are going to read following news (in a very near future):

"... and as a result of further restructuring and cutting off unprofitable divisions Daimler Chrysler decided to close a (Viper) production plant indefinitely ..."

Something's not right if the car's so perfect yet nobody is buying it.

Where not whining about anything. We just don't want to see our dream car become something it's not. There's many ways to kill something. And just because a car has the name Viper on it doesn't make it a Viper.

 

[Bwright]

Some of you may have wondered when I was going to chime in on this, since I've beaten this subject many times before.

I agree very much with John Baird. The minimalist/purist Viper owners are afraid of "options" for whatever reason. Some even like to make the "pink" claim, which is so juvenile/immature. The option of TC & paddle shift would open up another avenue of prospective buyers, but the minimalists are terrified of what this might do to their precious Viper "manhood".

Some claim that added gear would add to the costs of upkeep & repairs . . . when you are spending thousands to modify your Vipers anyway, what difference does it make. Bite the bullet on this. You bought a near $100,000 auto remember?

Best all around scenario . . . defeatable TC on all Vipers. Paddle shifted transmissions as an option. I SAID OPTION (hope you understand that meaning). R & D costs can be added into the cost of the "Optioned" paddle shift models.

Some minimalist purists are whining about the R & D costs for development. To engineer such a product (paddle shift transmission) would not break the bank so to speak. This technology has been around for many years. It was developed for the Chrysler ME-412 & was a highly respected system. There have also already been at least 2 Viper driving professional racing teams which have used Paddle Shifter gearbox/transmissions in their racing Vipers over in Europe, and this was a couple/few years back. One of those teams I know has now changed over to the 550/575 Maranello's. Point is, the system has already been used in SRT era Vipers in endurance road racing. Hmmm.

The minimalist/purist Viper owners are more willing to risk the viability of the entire Viper entity simply because of their die hard beliefs that the "Viper" was made for "only" them. Many of those die hards are not even owners of the current generation. I would even suspect that of the few hundred, heck, let's even say few thousand just to make a real point . . . that the few "thousand" die hard minimal purists out there, less than 20 have bought a Viper more frequently than 1 in every 3 years. How does the lineage of the Viper continue without continued sales? The minimalist purists are not going to be able to keep the sales alive enough to continue the line. Broadening the market to other potential buyers will keep the line alive. Closing the gap between a $180,000 plus used Lambo & Ferrari & Aston Martin will sell Vipers. The mimimalist purists can either hold on to their precious minimal Vipers, or they can buy a newer version with the "option" of standard manual, or upgraded "paddle shift" transmission. Did that really hurt? Of course not. Did it help to save a breed which has dying sales . . . perhaps, a very strong perhaps. It could even make an impact on European sales of the Viper . . . and why not . . . D of C is somewhat strong in Europe (duh).

Options. People are more willing to shop when there are more "OPTIONS". Let's face it, the whole of the "die hard minimalist purist" is very limited in its numbers. Most of "them" are all on here posting daily and you could probably count them easily at less than 200. How many other Viper owners are there though who have never been to this site and could really care less about what the Viper "purists" think? They are owners who liked the look of the Viper and its power, and just bought it. There are many times more of that kind of buyer than the minimalist purist buyer. They also typically, in my opinion, have way more money to burn. Those are the ones I would be more concerned with in sales if I were DC. The minimalist purist Viper owners would need to purchase at least 1, if not really 2 or 3 Vipers more likely, each year to keep the line alive over the next 3 - 6 years. That ain't going to happen.

Flame me; no suit and I don't care!!!

Well put. I remain amused and astonished at the misconceptions as regards the technology and its application.

First, no technology now employed in the automotive arena can or will make you a better driver. Not paddle shifters, not ABS, not traction/stability control. Nothing The only thing that will make you a better driver is training and experience. So the notion that adding a paddle shifter is somehow going to equalize Viper driving skill across the board by somehow dumbing down the car or make everyone or anyone for that matter fast at the track is bizarre. The average guy has no track experience. Giving him a sequential or DSG shifter is not going to turn him into Juan Montoya or anything remotely close any more than giving someone a modern automatic weapon in place of a revolver will transform them into a Navy Seal. What it will do, however, is two things. First, it will make those who love the look of the car but are disinclined or unable to drive a manual for whatever reason actually go out and buy one. This will improve the car’s business case and help ensure its survival. Ferrari’s take rate for their F1 style transmission is 80%. Ferrari still makes a manual but realizes that people need and like choices. The second thing is that it will make already good drivers that much faster because technology increases a car’s usable performance envelope and, in an application of the law of unintended consequences, actually makes a car more dangerous.

In previous similar discussions I have made the example of technology’s progress on military aircraft because the illustration is clearer. Military aircraft technology has come a long way in the last 50 years. But as the aircraft’s capabilities expanded the skill set needed to fly these increasingly sophisticated aircraft became more not less demanding.

Manual or paddle shifter makes no difference in the very real fact that, unlike any other sport on the planet, motor racing’s ability to maim and violently kill its participants is not diminished one whit. Viper race cars have used sequential shifters to deadly effect against their competition. But if we are to believe the "purists" the technology used in these winning Viper race cars is impure and the street cars are the real deal.

The current SRT-10 was never designed to have broad appeal and I am mystified at where the notion came from. On the contrary, the reason the Viper has struggled in the marketplace is precisely because it still has very limited appeal. Until recently the Viper never came as a coupe. With the debut of the coupe the car has finally reversed the year-over-year monthly sales slide and perked up a bit. But there are still no transmission choices, no side airbags, no power top, no traction/stability control, no Nav systems etc. like you will find on such cars as the F430, 997 Turbo, Z06, Gallardo etc. How then has the car become mainstream? Certainly not stylistically as there are few cars (maybe a Ford GT and/or a Murcielago) that can upstage an SRT-10. The car is not wanting for power as it can hold its own against anything on the market within twice its price. So if it looks great and has tremendous performance why does it not sell? Because, among other things, it has too few choices for the broader market that could easily support it in virtual perpetuity with room for all. Simply option (or not) the car the way you prefer.

 

[rleminv]

If by options we are referring to factory options, IMHO that will only complicate the production of the Viper. Inventories of options, production line impact, dealers not knowing what is really available and on and on. All for what, 2500 per year. Options will only make the base vehicle without these options more expensive to absorb the costs of having the ability to be so flexible.

Automotive aftermarket is the correct way to "option" as I previously stated. I pay for mine, you pay for yours.

The Viper is what it is. Leave it alone!

If that means the "breed" dies, so be it. Something else will come along and take its place, or not, and the world keeps turning. Broadening the market will do the same thing, the "breed" will die anyway; unless you think an SL600 with a Viper package really keeps it alive whether or not it sells 10,000+ units a year.