PLEASE READ: Opinions Requested on Handling of SRT Forum.

[SmokinV10]

DISCLAIMER: Since this is a post on the way that the VCA should handle the SRT section, I believe it belongs here. This post does not address the SRT and yet it isnt about Gen I or II.

There has been a recent, extremely disturbing effort to remove negative comments posted on the SRT becuase they are "not constructive". This activity is happening on a a bulleten board where people voice opinions. Personally, I believe this is DC's tactic to mute us on bashing the car too badly. I know that many do not like or appreciate the multiple negative posts about the SRT, but many of us still believe it is our right. We believe that our voice will be heard. We believe that we should be able to make negative comments about a viper just as often as we would like to tell everyone how great it is. Why is one opinion right and the other is wrong? Why is a positive opinion correct while a negative one is wrong? They are OPINIONS, no one here is God, so no one should be able to say who is right and who is wrong.

If this is truly a democratic board that advovates 1st Amendment Rights and endorses the time honored principles this country was founded on, then this practice must be stopped. In this country as well as on this board, both the minority and majority voices must be heard. That means both positive and negative posts must be heard. Imagine if you were never allowed to say anything negative about the government. Wouldnt you call that a dictatorship? A communist state? The practice happening here is the same thing. In a way, this new control of the SRT forum, is a way of manipulating members and non members to read the biased viewpoints of a small population of our members. With this practice in place the posts that forum become a form of propaganda. I believe this practice is wrong. By removing opinions, the bias of the SRT forum becomes misleading. We are not doing a service to this board or its members. Even if many disagree with my whining (and the whining of many others), this act that is being committed seems to be worse than tolerating some whining. I would never want to give up my 1st amendment right to free speach and press because I did not want to hear a dissenting opinion, even an opinion I did not agree with. This melting *** of opinions is what makes this country so great. So for those of you who are "anti-whiners" you may have gotten what you want in the SRT forum, but look what you have sacrificed. SHAME ON YOU! For now, I just wanted to voice my opinion again and state how VERY dissapointed I am in the VCA's judgement and the judgement of its officers on enforcing this new rule.

 

[Y2K5SRT]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SmokinV10:
DISCLAIMER: Since this is a post on the way that the VCA should handle the SRT section, I believe it belongs here. This post does not address the SRT and yet it isnt about Gen I or II.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are almost right. It belongs in the "Board and Site Questions/Suggestions" forum, as that is exactly what this post is about. I will move it accordingly. Oh, and I will add some comment here if it is any help:

Some of the "negative posts" were nothing more than HIJACKING. What is meant by that? Somebody posts a legitimate question about the SRT and then somebody else "hijacks" the thread by bashing the car as a whole. Case in point: Someone asked about the exhaust shield on the SRT. A very specific question looking for CONSTRUCTIVE feedback. Yet some guy (guess who?) posts this as a reply: "whats the difference? so they change the piece around the exhaust pipe. What are they going to do about the rest of the car?" So, now people can't have a SINGLE SRT discussion without somebody jumping in and saying "Yeah, but the car *****!"? That is completely absurd. It ****** people off and accomplishes NOTHING. If you want to be heard, try something like Trey is doing (the poll). If you want to simply annoy people, then don't expect the post to stay. With all due respect to you and the 1st Amendment, would you expect, say, McDonald's to tolerate some guy walking in the door and yelling "BIG MACS ****!" every few minutes?

Your opinion is welcome, but if it is given repeatedly in a manner intended simply to attract attention and disrupt the boards, then I fully support the deletion of said posts - in any forum.

Chris

 

[SmokinV10]

Tony,
I respect the reasoning that you have posted as well as your written notification of why my posts are deleted. However, I do believe that the SRT section is getting a little more protection than the other sections of the board. This is:
1) Unfair to the large majority (shown by the poll) of Viper Nation
2) Undemocratic
3) Biased
4) Showing questionable motives (DC Influence?!?!)
I noticed that ANY post that was negative was deleted. Its also not true that you dont let this happen in the Snake Pit. I just had one deleted there too! This is even worse than how Supra owners are treated. There is an overwhelming majority here that thinks the styling on the SRT is bland. Many of us believe that the performance is decent, but not adequate for a complete new car. Where is it going to stop? This is nothing more than protectionism and undemocratic behavior. I see some of your points, but I believe that this is the wrong way to go about it. The wrong being committed here is far worse than "hurting the feelings" of a few SRT enthusiast cry babies.

 

[Joseph Houss]

Healthy, creative, intelligent, logical (need I say more?) discussions are not the issue here. The new protocol has been initiated to eliminate the SRT spamming that seems to attach itself to just about every SRT topic that is started.

This is no different than if a site visitor would answer "Who cares, the GTS stinks anyway" or "Viper...shmiper ... I can build my car into a 10 second car for all the money you spent!" to a valid question on the RT/10 and GTS forum.

As has been the protocol in the past, if a post doesn't stay "on target", it dilutes the value of the board.

 

[pj]

Cross-posting links to threads in other forums is also a no-no.

All you are doing is stirring up a hornet's nest. Your poll is not indictive of anything other than getting people to jump on a "i dont like it" bandwagon. Problem is, there are many more people who come here looking for information - what they end up with is a group of very vocal people who hyjack threads and keep saying the same thing over.... and over.... and over....

Talk about beating a dead horse.

 

[SmokinV10]

Joseph,
I have always respected your opinions, but I do have to protest here. Even under the ASSUMPTION that our "whining" is wrong, that does not make the current moderation rules right. TWO WRONGS NEVER MAKES A RIGHT. Do not go under the pretense that the current levels of moderation on the so-called "whining" is at par with board moderation on other subjects. Every post (even in the snake pit) has been deleted. This is clear protectionism of the SRT. It seems that DC is tired of reading negative comments and needs to protect its marketing plan on the new car. These actions have no other altruistic values such as the ones that are being painted here. I believe it is clear to all of us what is being done. I for one am very VERY dissapointed in the decision in implementing this new moderation strategy. Defend it all you want. I know its shady.

 

[SmokinV10]

Michael,
All that is being done here is an attempted "gag order" on me without saying so in so many words. Why would it be a "hornets nest if what you are doing is so right?" Food for thought, huh?

 

[Mike Brunton]

Smokin,

I am having a GREAT time watching you dig the hole deeper and deeper. Please keep going!

First off, this board IS NOT A DEMOCRACY! It is now OWNED AND OPERATED by the Viperclub of America. That is a fact, and we should be thankful they provide it for us. It is FOR THE BENEFIT of Viper owners. If you insist on DEVALUING the board for some owners by hijacking threads, cross-posting, harassing members, bashing the car under the guise of "expressing your feelings" and such, YOU WILL BE CENSORED. There is no secret dicussions, there are no covert things going on, there is nothing to hide - the moderators are doing what is BEST for the CLUB.

If it went the other way and folks were told that it was Ok to say whatever they wanted, then I would just have stopped visiting that forum, NOT because I was mad about it, but because it would have lost it's value to me.

If YOUR value of that forum is to bash the car in it, then the value has been lost. Actually, you lost your argument a LONG time ago - but you just cemented that when you compared the board moderation to corrupt governments - lame lame lame.

Honestly, you and Mark O just can't open your eyes. You keep believing the car is horrible and is the biggest flop ever. When confronted with evidence (sales), you say "anyone can sell anything". When told you are offending others, you say "Hey I didn't mean to offend". When asked to stop, you don't. When told you aggravate folks, you TURN UP THE HEAT. It's obvious your entire reason for doing this is due to some personal grudge against the new car. I happen to think you're peeved that you will no longer have the latest and greatest thing - thee will be a bigger, badder kid on the block, and the fact that you dont want to participate in that is bothering you.

You guy keep saying "if you like the SRT, why do you care what we say about it?"... I say, "if you DON'T like the SRT and you LOVE your GTS so much, why do you feel the need to keep bashing the car?".

I think it's pretty sad that you guys couldn't moderate yourselves, and now you've been "moderated". How sad is it that grown men can't act like it and have to be slapped on the wrist, and their commentary edited for content? Aren't you guys embarassed by that? I sure would be.

 

[SmokinV10]

Mike, Michael,
I'll keep on digging. But the last time I checked, Mike Brunton you arent even a Moderator. In fact currently you arent even a Viper owner! Dont tell me I will be censored. I have personally spoken with some moderators, I have not yet heard that they are ready to engage in that type of activity. Why would they, I may whine, but I have never made untrue statements. They are merely opinions, sometimes posted in the worng area. Oh well! Mike,In some circles of friends around my parts, you are in fact the troll.... Depends on how you look at it huh?

By the way, unlike many here, I wouldnt mind if you or anyone decided to take on some Gen II bashing. I have enough confidence in the car to not let it affect me. But in reality since neither of you own Vipers, Gen II bashing would really be "Trolling". Deep huh?

 

[SmokinV10]

On a similar note, it is disturbing that my posts are being deleted from the SRT forum. This is in fact where we are allowed to have a sense of humor. Unfortunately there are many here who are so serious that fun and Viper ownership are no longer co-exist. I have spoken with Tony Rickard, he agrees that our Whining is allowed there.

 

[SmokinV10]

Tony,
Thanks for clearing that up. Didnt mean to paraphrase you out of context.

 

[pj]

It's pretty common for someone who is on the losing side of an arguement to resort to some kind of personal attack. That's okay, I wouldn't expect any more from you than what you've put into the board so far. As a VCA Member I have as the same rights as you to express my opinions (maybe less so as a moderator, though).

Now aren't you glad that after all that you've affirmed your right to whine like a little kid? You must be so proud.

 

[SmokinV10]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
Now aren't you glad that after all that you've affirmed your right to whine like a little kid? You must be so proud.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Whats the phrase for this? "*** calling the kettle black comes to mind"

 

[Mike Brunton]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SmokinV10:
Mike, Michael,
In fact currently you arent even a Viper owner!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Smokin,

I guess it depends on your perspective. VOI is the Viper OWNERS invitational right? I'll be there - will you?


you said...
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
Dont tell me I will be censored. I have personally spoken with some moderators, I have not yet heard that they are ready to engage in that type of activity.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Then you said in the very next post

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
On a similar note, it is disturbing that my posts are being deleted from the SRT forum
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Since you're a fan of dictionary definitions, here's "censor":

Main Entry: 2censor
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): cen·sored; cen·sor·ing /'sen(t)-s&-ri[ng], 'sen(t)s-ri[ng]/
Date: 1882
: to examine in order to suppress or delete anything considered objectionable

Earth to Smokin! Earth to Smokin! Come in Smokin! Are you receiving us???

Learn to accept the fact that your behaviour is unacceptable, and therefore you are being censored - i.e. you posts are being removed because they are objectionable. You've been whining about it for days.. don't say it ain't happening.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
Depends on how you look at it huh?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Troll... comes from the very "troll" meaning to catch fish. A troll is someone who posts something obviously controversial in order to "catch" people in an argumentative thread. You, sir, are a troll.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
By the way, unlike many here, I wouldnt mind if you or anyone decided to take on some Gen II bashing. I have enough confidence in the car to not let it affect me.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh the hypocrisy! If you were so confident in your GTS, you wouldn't feel the need to slam the SRT! Your (and others) constant need to do so says alot about your confidence in the car. But it's really a circular argument, since it's all about my perception vs. your perception, and I'm not going to argue that my view of things is more correct than yours. What we DO know is that you have been told, multiple times, to give it a rest. You did not do that, and now your posts are being *censored*. Thats life. Whether I am a Viper owner, a "troll in your circle" or whatever is besides the point, and you are again lashing out at me by commenting on other things you feel will hurt - but they won't. I loved my GTS - it's gone... boohoo.. I got more than I paid for it! Now I'm gettin and SRT... no problems, I'm happy. The issue at hand is your actions. Unfortunately you have been unable to control yourself, so those who are in control have had to reel in your leash. How unfortunate. If you have something to say about that - great... if you want to resort to slams, whats the point really? Email me and we can save everyone the trouble of having to read it on here.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
But in reality since neither of you own Vipers, Gen II bashing would really be "Trolling". Deep huh?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The definition of a troll says nothing about a person has a personal involvement in the subject they troll about. You actually just check-mated yourself. I have no engaged in GenII bashing, therefore I am not a troll - by your argument. However, you posit that if I do not own a GenII, then I would be a troll to bash it, even though I 'own' an SRT (well, a deposit and reservation anyways). By your OWN definition, you are a troll, since you do not own an SRT, or indeed have a deposit, and by your OWN definition, GenIII bashing without owning means it's a troll.

How's that for logical reasoning? You sir, are a troll!

But it really doesn't matter... you're not going to change my mind, and you're not going to change the moderators mind. You have been told where the line is. When you cross it, your posts get deleted - and I love that policy. I look forward to not reading further trolls from you on the SRT forum.

Now if you wanna play nice (and if you can handle it), then by all means participate. If you continue to be a troll (by your own definition), then I don't have to ask you to stop, and I don't have to tell you to stop - the people in charge have laid down the law with you, and you can either accept it, or continue to troll, and be banned. Doesnt matter much to me either way.

 

[Jay Herbert]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SmokinV10:
.... All that is being done here is an attempted "gag order" on me without saying so in so many words. Why would it be a "hornets nest if what you are doing is so right?" Food for thought, huh?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The above is simply an incorrect statement.

The issue here is that people are posting the same comments on styling, over and over in threads that have nothing to do with the styling topic. Somebody asks for a picture of a Silver SRT-10, first response: "Why, it is Ugly" , Someone asks about the "Start Button", first response: "Who cares, ask about styling", etc., etc., etc. There are many active topics on the SRT-10 styling, and that is where the discussion should occur, not in threads that have nothing to do with styling. It is that simple.

Search the forum for "trolling" as there were several extremely entertaining threads on the topic recently that explain why trolling (which is what is described above) is not acceptable behavior in this forum as well as most forums on the web.

We are sorry that you and many others are not happy with the SRT-10 styling. Constructive criticism is the way to influence a change there. Not trolling.

Hope this clears up your questions (for some reason, I feel it won't

, but it is fun trying).

 

[pj]

Well said, Mike.

 

[SmokinV10]

Mike, Mike, Mike,
Here we go again. You feel free to define what a troll is. Many (and I do mean MANY) of us, think that a Troll is someone who lurks here and bashes against viper owners (which you WERE but ARE NOT). Mike, well, you have been bashing against whining owners for quite a while. In fact, I do remember some slight bashing against the Gen I and II cars. In the grand scheme of things, you, sir, can think what you want. It matters little to me. You dont have a Viper, you arnet a VCA member, and I should care what you think because?!?!?! If you, Michael, or some other staunch SRT supporters want to dislike me, thats fine. Trust me, i wont be losing any sleep.

 

[USAF BAD ASP]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SmokinV10:
You dont have a Viper, you arnet a VCA member,

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

now there are two people named mike on this board who shouldn't have avatars if the rules were all followed...

seriously, I agree with what was said about how if someone asks a serious question it should be seriously answered.. but deleting someones heartfelt opinion about how the srt might be ugly or whatever is wrong. You MIGHT THINK they are joking or trying to hijack the thread, only because it's an opinion often expressed. But that doesn't make it any less right or OK to post it.

It's a new idea that I haven't experienced on any of the other forums I talk on: Mods deleted people's opinions because they are "tired" of reading them...

 

[pj]

Actually, you are wrong about that USAF. Both Mike and I are current VCA club members with accounts in good standing under VCA rules.

 

[USAF BAD ASP]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Michael Pierce:
Actually, you are wrong about that USAF. Both Mike and I are current VCA club members with accounts in good standing under VCA rules.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are dodging my point once again. Not long ago I posted the rule where it says you must OWN a viper to have an avatar. You don't. It did NOT say anything about actually being a member in vca. My point is follow the rules before you go enforcing them on others. Kinda like the local cops who always let off the hot blonde girls, but the guys always get fat tickets. It's not fair to everyone else. If you don't like the rules, the change them.. I'm not going to bother looking for the rule to post again, because last time I did you ignored it because there was nothing you could say..

 

[USAF BAD ASP]

since some people can't understand english I have removed this post. I would also appreciate the removal of any references to this post so I confuse as few people as possible with my poor use of our language.

 

[USAF BAD ASP]

post has been edited for YOUR pleasure!