Problems with VEC3-no response to tuning

[Flyntgr]

I'm wondering if anyone else has had this problem, and if so, what was the cause? I have dynoed the car twice on Dynotechs, with the stock card and the custom performance cards having identical results, to 1 hp difference. My vendor hasn't tried the cards on other cars, nor has he sent me a replacement VEC3 control box. If any of you have a good solution to this, please don't hesitate to let me know. I've paid a good bit of money for the unit, plus installation costs, with NO results at all. No engine codes; no improvement over the stock card. I have full Bellanger exhaust system, including headers, and greens filters. The only other mod is the VEC3.

 

[Joseph Dell]

you can't just plug a card in and expect it to work magic. you have to tune it for your application. The slightly modified cards don't do squat IMHO. but 60 seconds with the software after viewing a dyno run that captures Air/Fuel and then we are talkin' something else.

 

[Flyntgr]

That's what we did; two dyno sessions two or three weeks apart. Seven or eight runs. No difference after retuning with new cards. Has anyone had this experience? If so, what was wrong. Thanks.

 

[Joseph Dell]

post the A/F and dyno charts along w/ the car parameters. the person tuning might not know what they are doing. "no change" i find hard to believe. you would either gain or lose. OR, the VEC2 isn't installed properly and it doesn't see the RPM so that it isn't applying changes.

 

[Dave T(BADVENM)]

When you install the cards are you getting the green blinking light from the VEC3 (cant remember if it blinks once or twice) acknowledging its read the program in?

 

[plumcrazy]

it sounds like you are using blank cards or something. listen to joseph dell, he will try to help ya...trust me i know it..lol

 

[mike & juli]

post the A/F and dyno charts along w/ the car parameters. the person tuning might not know what they are doing. "no change" i find hard to believe. you would either gain or lose. OR, the VEC2 isn't installed properly and it doesn't see the RPM so that it isn't applying changes.

That is what happened to us--the VECII was NOT installed properly--we listened to Chuck Tator who referred us to Kyle at RomarRacing here in Upstate NY, he re-installed the VECII, and was able to tune the car on his dyno. Had a HELL OF A TIME finding what was wrong, until we went back to step one...now tuned and works perfectly. A HUGE thanx to Chuck, Sean Roe, and Kyle for resolving this problem for us. ~juli~
**We do NOT use that 'friend/mechanic' any longer, needless to say**

 

[Flyntgr]

Yes, it blinks until I remove the card. No engine codes are set off. It could either be improper installation or a faulty control box-or maybe something else, but the cards have been re-done, so that's not the problem. We'll figure it out sooner or later. Thanks for everyone's replies.

 

[X-Metal]

Yes, it blinks until I remove the card. No engine codes are set off. It could either be improper installation or a faulty control box-or maybe something else, but the cards have been re-done, so that's not the problem. We'll figure it out sooner or later. Thanks for everyone's replies.

do you have the software so you can pull up the program in the car and see what changes are/have been made? his new datalogging software is pretty good, and you can laptop dyno it by the seat of your pants pretty darn good

 

[Jack B]

Flyntgr

How about this - when you need a good answer, give us some good information. No one can tell you a thing without you posting your a/f values from your dyno sessions. The other piece of missing information is the actual program. Turn on the key, hold down the button and insert the card, this will send the current VEC data to the card, now the discussion can start.

 

[Flyntgr]

Sorry for my lack of technical knowledge, but in any event the data was irrelevant because the engine computer wasn't reading the VEC3. I have downloaded a new program from my vendor, using a laptop, and will dyno the car Wednesday at the same shop. Without the VEC3 it's producing 481 rwhp and 506 rwt. I'll find out Wedneday if he VEC3 will now communicate with the ECM. How about that, Jack?

 

[Joseph Dell]

The vec3 doesn't talk to the stock computer. It is a piggy-back controller.

So post the A/F readings and the dyno chart and we will try to help you.

JD

 

[Flyntgr]

Thanks, Joseph. I'm going to have it dynoed Wednesday afternoon, as my vendor probably figured out a fix for it today. If not, I'll try to get her fixed by the vendor, as I'm not computer literate enough to attach the dyno sheets, and the problem, if not fixed, could either be a bad module or faulty wiring-or something else. This might be a problem best fixed by by the vendor, who is a genuine class-act expert. He's done what he can from out of state, but he could fix it if I can get it to his shop. Thanks to everyone!

 

[Joseph Dell]

so don't leave us hanging. what was the issue?

 

[2001 GTS]

Joseph just wants to see some damn A/Fs!!

 

[Flyntgr]

Please tell him I can't scan or post the d*** A/f ratio, but the good news is that my tuner has now dynoed and adjusted the a/f ratio to approx. 12.7 across the board. The stock settings were WAY rich. I dunno what the h.p./torque maximums will be when I run the dynoes for those maximum readings, but I'll let you know when I find out. There had been two stumbles (rich points) before-around 1,800 rpms and around 4,700 rpms, but both of these are perfectomondo now. I even have a modified "stock" card which promises an improvement of one or two mpg for long distance traveling. I'll try it on the 600 mile trip which starts tomorrow. As to downloading Dynotech charts, when I return home from Florida, I'll spend some time downloading the "read" software from dynotech, and if or when I can learn how to download them (I am 145 years old, retired from the military after service in the War Between the States, and thereafter) I'll do so. Thanks for your kind understanding of an old veteran dragged into the 21st century by a 550+ h.p. Viper.

 

[mike & juli]

LOL Flyntgr!! Sounds good on the a/f ration, that's about where we're at when last tuned, 12.7. Good luck on your trip, and I'm sure you'll get all this figured out (I don't know how to post anything on these posts either!! And, I'm not 145!~!~!)....have a good trip! ~juli

 

[Flyntgr]

I made it home from FL and had some good help from Sean Roe, who personally dynoed and tuned my car with 3 cards: stock, mileage (a variant of stock), and performance. The car runs great and smooth now, pulling hard through all gears. His 12.7 A/F ratio seems to be a good REAL WORLD choice. I'm getting from mid 19's to 21.9 mpg with the performance tune, running on the highway at speeds of 80-90 most of the time, and getting about 20.5 mpg overall. I think that's pretty good for a car with more than 480 rwhp and more than 500 rwt. Now that the A/F ratio is finalized, I'll go back for 3 more pulls on the Dynotech to post my highest output numbers. Even if the highest numbers are less than I had hoped-according to the numbers Tony at Arrow Racing suggested (579.9 hp at the flywheel and 611 rwt on his engine dyno), I can tell that this car is stronger than ever, and has a very uniform and steep pull to the max h.p. and torque readings. I'll post my final numbers when I can. Sean wasn't pulling for max h.p./torque numbers, but was tuning the engine to make her pull evenly. I am sure he accomplished that, very graciously.
Question:Can anyone tell me what the percentage loss calculation should be between teh flywheel and the rear wheels? Some say 12 % and some say 15%. What say you?
Thanks to everyone for your replies. Julie you made an old man feel better.
Your Obedient servant, "A good ole Rebel", Flyntgr.

 

[Joseph Dell]

so back to your initial post... the VEC was installed incorrectly. Is this a correct statement? initially there were no noticeable gains or losses. but now there are. So was that the issue? I don't care so much about your power #'s as i do about what brought you here initially to this post...

JD

 

[Flyntgr]

Joseph, my man, chill a little about what you "care about". I appreciate your help, so please don't take it so seriously. No, the VEC3 was NOT installed incorrectly, but each engine being a little different than another, it took time and effort-and actual hands on dynoes by the master- to ferret out the nuances of 21st century technology. The early cards were too rich, and not completely stoich accross the rpm bands. Now they are pretty close, varying from 12.7 to 13, but mostly 12.7 to 1. The car has no hickups when accelerating, and flows strongly. I don't know yet about max h.p., but the graphs reflect significant improvements in h.p. and torque. Thanks. Reggie

 

[mike & juli]

I made it home from FL and had some good help from Sean Roe, who personally dynoed and tuned my car with 3 cards: stock, mileage (a variant of stock), and performance. The car runs great and smooth now, pulling hard through all gears. His 12.7 A/F ratio seems to be a good REAL WORLD choice. I'm getting from mid 19's to 21.9 mpg with the performance tune, running on the highway at speeds of 80-90 most of the time, and getting about 20.5 mpg overall. I think that's pretty good for a car with more than 480 rwhp and more than 500 rwt. Now that the A/F ratio is finalized, I'll go back for 3 more pulls on the Dynotech to post my highest output numbers. Even if the highest numbers are less than I had hoped-according to the numbers Tony at Arrow Racing suggested (579.9 hp at the flywheel and 611 rwt on his engine dyno), I can tell that this car is stronger than ever, and has a very uniform and steep pull to the max h.p. and torque readings. I'll post my final numbers when I can. Sean wasn't pulling for max h.p./torque numbers, but was tuning the engine to make her pull evenly. I am sure he accomplished that, very graciously.
Question:Can anyone tell me what the percentage loss calculation should be between teh flywheel and the rear wheels? Some say 12 % and some say 15%. What say you?
Thanks to everyone for your replies. Julie you made an old man feel better.
Your Obedient servant, "A good ole Rebel", Flyntgr.

LOL--glad I could help!! We've heard 15% loss between flywheel and rwhp. Glad Sean Roe could help you, had no doubts that he could or would!! ENJOY~~juli

 

[Jack B]

Joseph, my man, chill a little about what you "care about". I appreciate your help, so please don't take it so seriously. No, the VEC3 was NOT installed incorrectly, but each engine being a little different than another, it took time and effort-and actual hands on dynoes by the master- to ferret out the nuances of 21st century technology. The early cards were too rich, and not completely stoich accross the rpm bands. Now they are pretty close, varying from 12.7 to 13, but mostly 12.7 to 1. The car has no hickups when accelerating, and flows strongly. I don't know yet about max h.p., but the graphs reflect significant improvements in h.p. and torque. Thanks. Reggie

Let me give you a heads-up, there is no way your tuner was able to set-up the off-sets for temperature compensation without many-many runs at different Intake Air Temps (IAT). What you are going to find is that the a/f ratio is not going to be 12.7 over a varying array of temperatures.

I think what Joe was trying to say, he felt you were wrong in the way you blamed the VEC for your problems when you had no substantiation, I thought the same way. Being an experienced veterern you should realize, loose lips sink ships.

 

[Joseph Dell]

... No, the VEC3 was NOT installed incorrectly, but each engine being a little different than another...

Actually, other than the install on a GenII being easier than that of a GENIII, AND other than the stock cards that are shipped from ROE being a 'starting point' and nothing more, there isn't much different.

The reason I got on you about the 'closing the loop' on the issue is because many people (mostly new people) use the SEARCH button to find their solutions. And many items in the archives have problems listed but no solutions. So adding solutions helps the many people who will search for VEC3, problem, and Bellanger . or something of the like.

From experience, i know that the VEC3 install on an SRT isn't as easy as it is on a GENII. But it is pretty easy and straight forward. Even a caveman could do it.

Glad you got your stuff all worked out!

JD

 

[Flyntgr]

After 21 pulls on the dyno, we're still no any better than the stock setup. This makes me wonder if the VEC3 module is defective. I'll try to send you the link to my most recent pulls.

 

[Joseph Dell]

Check out: http://forums.viperclub.org/showthread.php?t=604036 . sounds like it may not be installed properly.

have your guy do a real-time data log to make sure that you are reading the TACH signal. if you don't read tach, it won't make any adjustments. And TPS on a viper only reads from 1v-4v. the ROE programs only modify 4.5v-5v... so those cards are pretty worthless. Might want to take a look at that...

JD

 

[Flyntgr]

I'll try to get my computer literate secretary to help me with this tomorrow so you can have the A/F ratios. I've had more than 20 dyno pulls and all have A/F ratios which are too rich (****). How long does it take to tune a VEC3? I'm 63 now and don't have too many more years left in me. sigh.....

 

[Flyntgr]

joseph, since you are ONLY as far as Georgia, please take a look at what we post tomorrow, and if you can do better, let me know. Hell, I'll drive to GA to get this *@#$%^* fixed. It has pulled 582/605 without any damned help from the VEC3, and I'm about fed up with this. If you can do it, just let me know. I'm about at wits end with this. Thank you for observing the apparent worthlessness of the cards being used. You have better ones? thanks again.

 

[Joseph Dell]

joseph, since you are ONLY as far as Georgia, please take a look at what we post tomorrow, and if you can do better, let me know. Hell, I'll drive to GA to get this *@#$%^* fixed. It has pulled 582/605 without any damned help from the VEC3, and I'm about fed up with this. If you can do it, just let me know. I'm about at wits end with this. Thank you for observing the apparent worthlessness of the cards being used. You have better ones? thanks again.

I'm happy to help if you can verify that the VEC3 is actually doing ANYTHING at all. and the best way to validate this is to have your tuner do a real-time data log. you can see RPM which is really what you want b/c i suspect that the vec isn't reading it therefore it isn't making any changes.

 

[Flyntgr]

Here are the dyno runs which I had run after Sean did his latest mods to the performance cards. On his machine the A/F ratio was between 13.25 and 12.7. I don't know if they were "real time" or not.

 

[Flyntgr]

Runs 10 and 11 were with the "performance" card; runs 12 and 13 were with the stock card. The stock card seemed to do better. Can you make out anything from these graphs? Thanks.