Question about Gen I Valuation

[Magicboy2]

I've seen a good deal of fluctuation in Gen I prices as of late.

As is well known on this board, Gen I cars often require a head gasket replacement, which can be rather costly. On the other hand, many Gen I's make it to high-mileage land without any leaks/problems.

My question is, if you were going to purchase a Gen I, how much would you adjust your offer price based on whether the car had not yet had the head gaskets replaced (or an Arrow Rebuild)? Playing the odds, if you will.

Also just for fun, how do you see Gen I values holding up vs Gen II values over the next year or two? Currently it seems about $10k separate the two. Anyone think this will change materially?

-Matt

 

[BIRD]

$2500 assuming the seller hasn't already reflected it in the asking price. I think the GTS's will hold there value better against Gen 1, however at some point higher milage GenII's will sell for less than low milage GENI's.

 

[FRANK]

Bird,

I guarantee Gen 1's in showroom stock shape will bring more than "normal" GTS's years down the road. Obviously ACR cars will bring big bucks one day. First generation will bring more money - that bare bones - no windows, sidepipes, will attract people one day. People often [******] and moan about no ABS, no windows, rough ride, but that it what I love most. Personally I wish mine had no A/C! I love stripper cars...radio delete etc is cool in my opinion.

As far as repair costs on a Gen 1 - I don't understand people's views. People get all hell bent that head gaskets haveta be replaced at a cost of under 2 grand. But in the next breath, you have people putting tacky gascaps on their car for $400. Adding a shifter handle for $300. Spending a few thousand on rims. Spending thousands on tacky leather interiors. Spending hundreds, if not thousands on goofy looking ricer wings. Seems so many people are more concerned with adding costly aftermarket crap to a near perfectly designed car that they lose sight of a $2,000 repair. The Viper pre-2003 is absolutely gorgeous in stock form. Why change anything? I'll never understand...

 

[joe117]

Yes Frank, you are right. All of those bolt ons are tacky. Keep em stock folks, you'll be glad you did.

 

[95Viper]

Frank, I agree with you, add those custom touches to make your car personal but be ready to switch it back to stock one day if you plan to keep it forever...and stop complaining about the gaskets...test your oil each year for $20, check for leaks and spend the $1300-1500 for a gasket change before it needs to go to Arrow for a rebuild. Cheaper than tires.

The gen1 "Last 300 Side Exhaust" will be extra special one day too, even if it is just a stamp.

 

[Magicboy2]

I definitely agree about the "purity" value. An interesting parallel can be seen in the arcade collecting business- an "original" Ms Pac Man or Galaga machine, in untouched condition, can fetch a pretty penny, because the essence of the classic is preserved.

A few extra HP may indeed add fun, but a "pure" car will definitely be what collectors look for later down the line.

I asked specifically about the head gasket because I myself am in the market for a Gen I, and when you're talking about asking prices in the 30s, being able to finesse 2k or so off is a good chunk of savings.

 

[FRANK]

Magicboy,

If the head gaskets were leaking, then, I'd shave off two grand. Personally, I'd fix it and then sell it. I guarantee the majority of people on this board would steer clear of any Viper with leaking head gaskets because 90% of the people on here have been conditioned by a minority that once head gaskets are leaking, the motor needs an entire rebuild from Arrow and only Arrow, which is another misconception...as if they are the only people who can rebuild a Viper engine.

People should take a tour of Conner Ave and watch ghetto women slapping Viper motors together while they sing rap songs to each other and twirl their dreadlocks! I couldn't believe my eyes in the summer of 2001 when I saw the people who were building the motors...unreal...

If the gaskets weren't leaking or weeping, you'd wouldn't budge me on lowering the price on something that wasn't a problem at the point of sale.

 

[Magicboy2]

As I said, naturally not every car will be a victim of the leak. If I come across a perfectly good Gen I, my intent would not be to cut a flat 2k from my offering price, I'd just be trying to price the ODDS of needing the work done into my offer.

Am I making it too obvious that I work for a securities company? Hee hee.

 

[LETHAL GTS]

You go Frank!
I agree with you 100%.
It's race car with lights and a tag. No A/C (uses HP), poor stereo (who listens to it anyway, not me, love the sound of my car). It's the most fun to drive car I've ever owned and goes like a SOB.
It's crude, rude and it gets more attention than anything else out there. Yes anything out there, eveyone knows what a Viper is and they can relate to it. Some of the more exotics, well what can I say, alot of dough for something that most people have no clue what it is.
Head gaskets?!? BIG DEAL!

 

[OutThere]

Frank should get his own category on this board! I love his "colorful" posts and when you read between the venomous lines he usually makes sense.

I speak to WELL respected Viper dealers (all of them just happen to provide the service of replacing the demon gasket) and they say things like "100% guarantee you will need a rebuild on any pre 96 Viper if it has over X,*** miles with the stock head gasket". BS. My 95 has 28,000 miles and doesn't burn or leak a drop of oil, doesn't burn or leak any fluids at all. I have been in stand-still traffic in Florida for an nearly an hour and it doesn't get hotter than 220. It dyno'd at 430 RWHP with just some exhaust work and has never given me any mechanical problem in any way. I am planning on getting a SC and with it some head work, so this potential gasket failure will go away. But the car is approaching 8 years old and has been perfect. And as Frank pointed out, it isn't the end of the world if you happen to detect a problem early to just have the stupid gasket replaced. Anyone suggesting that just after catching an early indication that the entire engine needs to be rebuilt seems pretty off base to me. Sorry Frank but I had to replace the interior and sound system, the stock kit-car quality was just killing me on such a great car. I agree with you on the AC though, hopefully when I have the engine work done they can rip it all out.

A Gen1 with low miles in great condition will be the first Viper to appreciate in value, like the kick *** muscle Vettes of the 60's. But you'll have to wait another 10-15 years or so. I like the fact that my car isn't devaluating much but it has nothing to do with why I bought it, it is just one of the many benefits of ownership.

 

[FRANK]

Frank should get his own category on this board! I love his "colorful" posts and when you read between the venomous lines he usually makes sense.

I speak to WELL respected Viper dealers (all of them just happen to provide the service of replacing the demon gasket) and they say things like "100% guarantee you will need a rebuild on any pre 96 Viper if it has over X,*** miles with the stock head gasket". BS. My 95 has 28,000 miles and doesn't burn or leak a drop of oil, doesn't burn or leak any fluids at all. I have been in stand-still traffic in Florida for an nearly an hour and it doesn't get hotter than 220. It dyno'd at 430 RWHP with just some exhaust work and has never given me any mechanical problem in any way. I am planning on getting a SC and with it some head work, so this potential gasket failure will go away. But the car is approaching 8 years old and has been perfect. And as Frank pointed out, it isn't the end of the world if you happen to detect a problem early to just have the stupid gasket replaced. Anyone suggesting that just after catching an early indication that the entire engine needs to be rebuilt seems pretty off base to me. Sorry Frank but I had to replace the interior and sound system, the stock kit-car quality was just killing me on such a great car. I agree with you on the AC though, hopefully when I have the engine work done they can rip it all out.

A Gen1 with low miles in great condition will be the first Viper to appreciate in value, like the kick *** muscle Vettes of the 60's. But you'll have to wait another 10-15 years or so. I like the fact that my car isn't devaluating much but it has nothing to do with why I bought it, it is just one of the many benefits of ownership.



Tony Vipermedical,

Is this at all possible? We can call it "RT/10-GTS Slugfest Room..Only The Strong Survive..."

 

[kverges]

The head gasket whiners have done absolutely no one any good. My '93 with 21,000 miles and plenty of track time is perfect - it consumes and leaks nothing. I spoke with my Viper Tech, who is very expereienced and well respected and he has NEVER had to replace a Gen I head gasket.

About 10 internet whiners froth up the board as though every car will nead head gaskets and the result? No one wants to buy Gen I cars because they assume an Arrow rebuild, or at least head gaskets, is some kind of mandatory thing. Potential buyers are terrified and the value of a Gen I Viper is below that of a Toyota Supra Turbo.

It is a pity, but the most vocal persons on this board are often the whiners, complainers and flamers.

Think I'm wrong?

Watch the flamethrowers ignite in response to this post.

Then ask statistics as in how many total Arrow rebuilds have been done; how many head gaskets replaced? Compare that with production figures from '92-'95 and see what the percentages are.

 

[GR8_ASP]

This was gone over in the past. Similar story. A few very vocal people claim that all will fail. Most Gen I owners I know have not had a problem. Mine is over 30k and has no issues. It is true that it is common. But common does not translate into 100%.

 

[FRANK]

Wait until all those pre-new head gasket design Arrow rebuilds begin to leak once again...the whining has yet to really kick in..."I thought the Arrow rebuild would cure the leaky heads...yada yada yada..." I wonder how many Arrow rebuilds were done with the old style head gasket...

 

[phiebert]

I was planning on replacing my head gaskets. I had a couple of the drip lines down the block about a year and a half ago. Before changing them I decided to have them tighten the head bolts as suggested by a number of VCA folks. That fixed the problem. Just a few weeks ago I thought I might as well change the gaskets just to be sure, but after checking the oil and doing a leak-down test there was no problem so my suggestion to anyone with a supposed head gasket problem is to torque the head bolts a little more. If that doesn't fix it then I think I can get you a proper replacement gasket for around $550 and you can either do it yourself or get the labor to replace them done for $600. So to answer your question, if someone wanted me to lower the price of my car (if I was selling) because I haven't replaced the head gaskets, I would say "I haven't replaced a lot of parts that may go someday, but for now they are all working. But there are no guarantees".

 

[FRANK]

Phiebert,

I torqued mine down to 100ft lbs and they barely oozed a drip at the mating surface so I decided to replace the gaskets anyway as a precautionary step.

How much did you tighten them down to and were you able to get under the car with a light to see if there was any traces of a drip or two? I must say retorquing them stopped the puddles on the floor...but didn't cure the problem 100%. Good luck

 

[Birvini]

We got our 94 back from Arrow about two months ago. It was a no brainer to have the rebuild done instead of just getting the head gaskets replaced. The car was still under warranty and the deductable was only 200.00

Now we have a virtually brand new engine with another year of warranty.