Roe Blower? Sean?

[Sean Roe]

Thanks Guys. I've learned a lot about business and employees along the way. Good advice from those that have been there is truly appreciated.
I'm about to start typing part two and I hope that in the end, everything makes sense and you like what I see coming.
Sorry for the long story, but if you can bear with me, you'll see where I'm coming from. If it works for you, great, but if not, I understand there are other opportunities and other tuners out there as well.

Rick, I replied to your email on the third and again on the fourth. It bounced both times :-(

Sean;

If you can afford a few seconds in the next few weeks, I will give you a call. It sounds like the Fat Lady might not sing yet, which is giving me some hope. I know the end product will be worth the wait, just need to know it is still being worked on and not abandoned.

As I stated for all, I really don't want to go the Centrifugal route and can wait another year, if need be, but don't want to wait two years for a forced induction package. I am glad to hear that you are getting squared away of everything else that jumps in to make life interesting.

If you can only find the time late to get back with me, just respond to the e-mail I shot you last week. Colosaleen!

Thanks
Rick

 

[CarDude]

Okay, another few months have gone by and just curious where Sean is at with the 03-06 production Blower kit? Did he finish the "German" car he put the production blower kit on and testing?

Summers getting closer and I am getting that Spring Mods feeling again. That and Dude's 08' ACR is just too much faster than mine at the moment.

Anyone have an update?

Don't even worry about my ACR...I am taking it to Texas next week, it will not be returning to Colorado. I will be moving all my cars over the next few months...I am out of the ice box and into the fire.

 

[Coloviper]

Dude? Icebox? It has been mid-70s all last week. I don't get it, but hey enjoy Texas. I was in Houston all this last wek and it was warmer in Denver. To each their own.

Now in all fairness it is a high of 29 today and we are suppose to get snow, but that is Colorado.

PS Sean, I am not sure why it is bouncing back. I will send you another e-mail. Every since Comcast went to this new e-mail system, I have had problems.

Rick

 

[CarDude]

Dude? Icebox? It has been mid-70s all last week. I don't get it, but hey enjoy Texas. I was in Houston all this last wek and it was warmer in Denver. To each their own.

Now in all fairness it is a high of 29 today and we are suppose to get snow, but that is Colorado.

PS Sean, I am not sure why it is bouncing back. I will send you another e-mail. Every since Comcast went to this new e-mail system, I have had problems.

Rick

You know as well as I do that it has been an unusal and extremely dry winter, but look at the Colorado Viper Club Schedule...nothing real until May...give me a break, what happened to the rest of the year. I need to live in a place where I can drive what I want basically when I want. I will be moving to the Austin/San Antonio Area, much milder than Northern Texas.

 

[Sean Roe]

Part two….

I left out a few key parts prior to describing what ’08 brought. If you don’t care to read, skip this paragraph as it’s just a little detail about what I did and learned about the Gen3’s. In that 2005-2006 time frame, where I had done plenty of testing on the wrecked 2004 Viper I bought and couldn’t quite figure out how to build a good kit while keeping it under the hood, I went in an additional direction where hood clearance wasn’t a problem; the Ram SRT-10. I financed one and started testing in ‘05. First, I ran a Paxton SC kit (to learn and understand more about them) then a turbo setup and finally a couple of positive displacement designs. I ended with a top mount design using a Lysholm 3.3L compressor and we built the kits entirely in house (save the compressor from Sweden). I figured out how to get the air flow correct by testing different manifold designs and running wideband sensors on every cylinder. I also worked out how to overcome that open loop delay timer (when you smack full throttle on a 2003+, the PCM will monitor the O2 signal and adjust the injector pulse to maintain 14.7:1 for the first 1.5 seconds, naturally aspirated or boosted). I felt like what I learned designing the truck kit was really going to be a benefit to the cars. It works really well and I’ve been very proud of the feedback I’ve received, such as; “BTW, Barry has 64,000 mi on the truck, 50,000 of those with your supercharger. He's a very satisfied customer. He says to feel free to use those numbers if you would like. Hope you're doing well. Thanks again, Robin & BG”.BG is Barry Grant of Barry Grant Carburetors.We’ve built almost 150 of those kits to date and it’s been a great progression from my original 1996 GTS design in 2001. The progression continues….

Dateline 2008….
So, the year begins; I’m no longer living in a travel trailer behind the shop and I’m starting to fiddle around with the 2003 SRT-10 I got by trading in the ex wife’s Porsche. My supplier in Sweden tells me they’re making 2.8L compressors proprietary for Kenne Bell. I figure that between the larger compressor, what I learned on the intake manifold designs of the Ram and the new ability to reflash the stock PCM to accept a 2bar MAP sensor and larger injectors, I’ve got hope on the project again.

I bought a 2.8L compressor and started fitting it up on a manifold in the engine compartment. Similar clearance issues as before, but better without a hood pad. Then I figured maybe the ’08 hood would be better since it’s taller. I got a hood and “yippee”, tons more clearance over the Supercharger. But, the inner hood braces actually hung down more. We went ahead and did a prototype with the intake tubes over the valve covers and running like a V toward the filters. It worked, but didn’t look so good and I had concern about heating the tubes. We just didn’t really gain much by changing hoods, save some clearance over the compressor. I went back to the original hood and tweaked every dimension to lower the compressor in the engine until I finally had clearance, but wasn’t out of the woods. Everything was incredibly tight. Move an item one eighth of an inch and it affected something else. In the end, we got it all set up, trimmed the inner hood braces and were ready to run it.

Dyno time comes…. The car isn’t making the power similar designs I’ve tried did. What the….? Further testing showed the outlet temperatures to be really high. I called and found out the compressor I got was an “H” version (high pressure). What that meant was that the internal compression was set for about 15 psi. Run less than that and it makes less power. This blower was made to run 15+ psi. Damn! Had to then order the “S” version (nobody at Kenne Bell had mentioned options to me and I had to buy from them, rather than through my rep in Sweden). I ordered the “S” and sold a fellow VCA member the “H” for his high HP project car at cost. We get our new compressor, fit it up and all is good… whew!

VOI 10 is coming up in a couple months. Things at the shop are slowing down some…. We get a charge back of $15,000 on an international order and find out only the card owner was protected, not the vendor…damn. We have to start using the credit line to cover shortages. I think to myself, “well, I’ll go to VOI and see what people think about this and go from there”.

VOI comes. Seemed like a low turn out and most of the other Viper vendors were talking about slowing down also. Not good. Response to the kit was good. Took a few names and numbers from those saying “let me know when you have them available”. Ok, sounds good so far. I get a call from Dave at the shop. The industrial complex manager wants to show our building (the former TRW brake testing facility) to another company. I had been in the center for five years and my lease was coming up at the end of October.

I drive back to the shop after VOI, starting to think about the future more. I had a 1,000 miles to think and realized that at instead of going back to focus on building Superchargers, I really had to come to a conclusion on whether or not I would renew the $4,800 a month lease I had. After studying, talking with other business owners and using my gut instinct, I decide in mid September to scale back, rather than leverage more and bet I could ride out a full lease term with $32,000 a month in overhead (with the employees at that time). I sold off anything that I didn’t need or could use from another company, such as the CNC machines in order to reduce the size of the space I needed. I bought the machines in response to the need to keep the Supercharger kit prices low (many of the job shops I was using started going up on prices in ’04-’05). Without the CNC’s, I could still make parts, but it would be on my manual machines or by way of job shops again, so the CNC’s went. Same goes for the dyno. There are three in the area. No need for me to carry that one if I can use one as needed for $100. Then I made a deal with another shop that was starting to downsize. Ronnie Robinson’s former Dodge dealership and mechanics would now be doing the installations and mechanical work, with me overseeing and tuning at the local Dyno. It’s very similar to the way I did it with multiple employees at my shop, but with less regular / committed overhead. We moved in October, then began filling orders again and building up a couple trucks in November.

By now, you know that I had to jump through some pretty big hoops to get the Supercharger kit under the hood of my SRT-10 car. What you may not know is that in addition to that system, I was also starting to run low on my Gen1-2 and Ram truck kit inventory. I started getting quotes from job shops and reviewing my costs on the three different kits (Gen1-2, 3 and Ram). Just like in the past, if you want to get the price down, you have to run in volume. This is especially true when you’re dealing with billet machined parts, rather than castings. Machining parts from solid is expensive. Having three separate low volume kits meant that prices were going up because the cost of parts was going WAY up. I started thinking about a solution on how I could resolve that and it seemed to me that if I could have all the kits sharing most of their components, like I did between Gen1 and Gen2, it would help on the cost and inventory overhead. I put that thought in the back of my head as I looked toward the PRI (Performance Racing Industry) show in Orlando during mid December.

Prior to going to the show, we had a job come in where the owner wanted over 700 to the wheels on his ’05 car. I looked at the parts needed and determine that while at the show, I should meet with rod and piston manufacturers about creating a reasonably priced forged bottom end package for the customer (forged H beam rods, power adder spec’ed pistons, better main bearing to help the #3 rod oiling issue, rod bearings and gaskets). Then I realize nobody else is doing this (again, I said reasonable priced…) and see that it could help more than this one customer. I’ll put some info on our site and the board about it in a couple days (promise). I was tired of seeing people pay $2,200 for a set of rods that we could get for them at $800 when we buy in volume (10 sets at a time). I’ll post a pic and info soon. They’re very nice rods.

I attend the PRI show and while talking with an old friend from the IMSA Supercar days, Jerry Magnuson comes up and joins in the conversation. Seems they were old friends also. I get introduced to Jerry and we talk shop for about a half hour. Ends up, he has a new three shaft reversed drive Eaton based TVS blower (not compressor since it does not have internal compression) coming up as an available part. He puts me in touch with his project engineer. Looking good again. Maybe I can build a kit that makes less heat and would be reversed so it fits all applications, or at least the car and truck? I met with casting companies at the show also. More good info.

After the show, it’s hard to reach Jerry or anyone at Magnuson. I finally get through to the engineer, but he doesn’t get back to me with availability or costs before Christmas. Project sits on shelf through the holidays.

During the interim, I worked on another customer project and start working out how to proceed with the ’05 owners project (plus run everything, take tech calls and fill orders). After a lot of thought and research, we decide to build the ‘05 car with a twin turbo. This is something I’ve wanted to do since 2001, when I had a Supercharger on my GTS and still owned a 1994 RT/10. I really wanted to go twin turbo on the RT/10, but ended up having to sell the car and add the funds to the customer deposit money so I could afford to build the first run of Gen2 Supercharger kits. This new turbo project will give me an opportunity to finish that thought and couple it with another eight years of Viper experience. We’re teaming up with another shop on the kit and “think” we can offer a very reasonably priced production kit. However, we have to finish the one first

Where we’re at today…..

The new three shaft Magnuson Eaton TVS blower is on order and should arrive week after next. Once it arrives, I’ll fit it to an existing manifold on a local car and see how she looks / performs. I’m thinking that I can put a sandwich intercooler plate underneath it on the trucks. There will be no such luck on the cars, but the upside is that it runs much cooler since it doesn’t compress internally. After studying up on the TVS, I’m impressed enough with it that we may start offering the Hemi kits made using them.

On the ’05 car, the motor internals are just about all here. Pistons are due to arrive Monday and the bearings soon after. Turbo parts are on order and the shop I’m partnering with is setting up their schedule for me in about a week and a half. The plan is to build up the turbo kit, get it tuned in at 5-6 psi and call that Stage 1. Then, we’ll build the bottom end of the engine, improve the heads, upgrade the fuel pump / lines as needed and turn up the boost for Stage 2. That’s the plan at least. I’m looking forward to building this up, then drawing the parts into production form and getting quotes on piping, turbos, water / air charge cooler, etc.

So, there you have it. Wondered what was going on with Roe Racing or the Supercharger kits? There’s your answer. You now know pretty much everything. Does that mean I have a deadline date for the kit? No, unfortunately it doesn’t. The bottom line is the same. I want to do it the right way. If that means all the delays in the past were for a reason and the result is better because of it, so be it. I’m really pushing for people to be happy with the final results. I don’t want anyone to be unhappy. Fortunately, the hard work and changes have paid of since the move and we’ve received no complains (save the “where’s the Gen3 blower?”). By contrast, we’ve received several testimonial type emails.

Rest assured, I want to get these new projects out and in everyone’s hands as much as you want them. From here on, I will do a better job of keeping you all informed. Thanks for the lesson.

Best regards,
Sean

 

[eucharistos]

....Rest assured, I want to get these new projects out and in everyone’s hands as much as you want them. From here on, I will do a better job of keeping you all informed. Thanks for the lesson.[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]

Best regards,
Sean

sean

thanks for the detailed post, very interesting

could be a chapter in an mba text book on entrepreneur's in america

looking fwd to future developments

 

[Scott_in_FL]

Hmmm, liking the idea of a reasonably priced turbo kit. This could make me keep my '06 instead of trade up for an '08. Please keep us posted.

 

[ViperTony]

Sean, awesome information and thank you for taking us along on your journey! So, it sounds like the reason the GenIII S.C. setup you displayed at VOI didn't go into production is to keep costs in check, correct? That seemed like a killer setup.

 

[Coloviper]

Sean;

I think the three shaft, reverse direction blower is the way to go from what I read. This is similar technology to the ZR1 blower, I believe. 3.3L capacity I believe!

Is the wastegate valve built into the blower housing as well. If it is, that should help tremendously with fuel economy, heat and emissions. Very exciting stuff!

Now I know that there is no room for an air to air or air to water intercooler set-up on the car, but can a methal injection (Snow Performance or something) system be adapted to your new intake manifold with multiple injector points for ideal cool.

It is not an ideal system, I know, because you have to keep the tank full, however there is a lot of room under the hood where a sizeable plastic reservoir tank can be mounted to where it is completely visible as to tank level. This would keep temps down significantly and I am sure would squeeze even more power out of the system or allow an extra 1 psi or 2 psi to be run safely. Just a thought.

Suggestions always add money of course, but when it comes to removing heat from a blower set-up, it is always money well spent and I am sure purchasers would kick in that little extra for a cooled system

Anyway, good stuff. TVS blower is exciting!

 

[PDCjonny]

I note that you have a bookkeeper. I am sure that she is great but take a free tip. Never completely trust any bookkeeper and never, ever give one check signing authority.

What makes you say that?

Ex-Calif. bookkeeper accused of embezzling $10M

 

[ViperPWR]

Can't wait until your new projects hit the streets. I'll be patiently waiting.

 

[black mamba1]

Well, Keith...I don't think Sean would've chosen to sell his AWESOME Viper if he didn't have to...truly sad. ~juli

I agree.

 

[black mamba1]

Sean, great write-up and thanks for the info!

 

[Mamba55]

Sean awwesome post. Got my curiousity on the Twin Turbo.

 

[Sean Roe]

Hi Tony,
You asked “So, it sounds like the reason the GenIII S.C. setup you displayed at VOI didn't go into production is to keep costs in check, correct? That seemed like a killer setup.”

Thanks. I’m glad you liked it. By the time I got back from VOI and had everything settled back down, post move, I saw that the cost to duplicate was high for my own HP to dollar barometer. Like the Gen1 and 2 kit, my gut is telling me to search out a way to reduce parts needed to build a kit, which reduces costs and inventory accordingly. Reversing the blower will eliminate the intake tubes and airbox at the back, which cost $1,000 alone. I’ve needed some time to do that. If the kit ends up better because I'm able to use newer tecnology and components, even better. I still have my GTS and plan to test a TVS based blower on it as well.



Hi Rick,
You asked “Is the wastegate valve built into the blower housing as well. If it is, that should help tremendously with fuel economy, heat and emissions. Very exciting stuff!

Now I know that there is no room for an air to air or air to water intercooler set-up on the car, but can a methal injection (Snow Performance or something) system be adapted to your new intake manifold with multiple injector points for ideal cool.

It is not an ideal system, I know, because you have to keep the tank full, however there is a lot of room under the hood where a sizeable plastic reservoir tank can be mounted to where it is completely visible as to tank level. This would keep temps down significantly and I am sure would squeeze even more power out of the system or allow an extra 1 psi or 2 psi to be run safely. Just a thought.

Suggestions always add money of course, but when it comes to removing heat from a blower set-up, it is always money well spent and I am sure purchasers would kick in that little extra for a cooled system”

Yes, the bypass is built into the blower housing, as opposed to a separate part like we’ve use on our Gen1 and 2 Autorotor based kits. I’m not sure it will run any cooler because of the location, but it makes a much cleaner package and again, reduces cost since it’s built in.

Regarding the water methanol, you may or may not be aware that we have systems already. I originally bought one from Snow, then figured out what I did and didn’t like from it and made my own. The only thing they were really lacking (in 2004) was a good controller. I had a company start making us a Pulse Width Modulated switch to do it progressively. We have kits controlled by either the VEC2/3 or stand alone based on fuel injector pulse input.

One thing I haven’t tested is direct injection. I’m not sure if it would work better than misting upstream as we do now. Research and testing is the only way to find out and I’m a little stacked up at the moment, but will keep that one in the back of my mind.

Regards,
Sean

 

[Coloviper]

Awesome Sean;

When you are very close to having a completed system, let me know as I could find an excuse with work and double up with a flight to come out and see the whole package. I have set aside some money for this kit and will just leave it sit until you have a completed system ready for purchase. I told me wife it was just savings. I don't think she believes me.

My only further suggestion is to downplay the polished look and just try to make the whole package look factory fresh as if the car was delivered that way from the factory. I think it will have more appeal that way as opposed to a custom look like the last kit.

I have to say that I am extremely excited about the direction you are now looking at taking because it takes into account the best technology available today, not just yesterday. I love the old Autorotor set-ups as they have been rock solid, but the TVS set-up is the wave of the future.

Thank you for the update (I was not aware of your methol systems and am excited you will test a direct injection as it worked out very well for me on a Saleen Vortech manifold I had with the secondary bosses drilled out. I ran smaller dirct injection injections with methol injection and it was pretty cool, though that was all on a OBDI set-up).

I PM'd you my work e-mail address. I don't know what is going on with the e-mail bounce at home.

Rick

 

[ViperPWR]

A thought about the **** tank, on my vette the windshield washer tank is used to hold the ****. You even get a low light when the tank is low (not sure if the viper does that also).

 

[Sean Roe]

Hi Everyone,

It’s taken a while to receive, but the new Eaton / Magnuson TVS Supercharger arrived yesterday. It’s basically a Corvette ZR1 Supercharger without an intake manifold assembly.
I can’t stop other orders and projects to start fitting it today (we have a car build, an engine build, a Gen 1 Supercharger build, plus daily order work going on at the moment), but I’ll get it worked into the schedule ASAP.
Just wanted to keep you informed.

Regards,
Sean

 

[Coloviper]

Awesome! Get R Done Sean.

 

[NYC SNAKE]

I'm getting excited thinking about it!

 

[JKVIPER]

Here is a related question regarding supercharing stock normally aspirated engines.

I notice that when a company offers a stock s/c, the normally aspirated version of the same engine has a higher compression ratio than the s/c version.

THis is true for the Jag XF as well as the ZR1 corvette.

How do systems like Sean's or Paxton optimize the s/c power if the stock viper engine is not engineered as a lower compression to compensate for the S/C.

Just curious. Thanks!

 

[99 R/T 10]

Hey Sean, PM sent.

 

[HI-NOS-Viper]

Here is a related question regarding supercharing stock normally aspirated engines.

I notice that when a company offers a stock s/c, the normally aspirated version of the same engine has a higher compression ratio than the s/c version.

THis is true for the Jag XF as well as the ZR1 corvette.

How do systems like Sean's or Paxton optimize the s/c power if the stock viper engine is not engineered as a lower compression to compensate for the S/C.

Just curious. Thanks!

Because the Viper engine comes NA at a lower compression. This is why adding boost to a certain level is fine especially if the internals are already forged. Most other cars compression comes pretty high NA. Someone correct me if I am wrong but the GenIII comes at 9:1.1 stock. That is easily boost ready.

 

[Coloviper]

This is why GEN III is more boost friendly than the 08/09s, all electronics aside. The GEN IVs have a much higher compression ratio in NA form to sqeeze as much power and compression from the NA form, but is a bit high for supercharging. Anything in the 10s is too high for supercharging. Low 9s is optimal for most situations and the GEN III is low or mid 9s, I believe.

Can't wait to see what this is all going to look and perform like. Can't wait to step up to the plate on the finished product Sean.

Rick

 

[Scott_in_FL]

Sean, sounds like you've got a bunch of '06 coupe guys ready to bite (including me). Keep up the great work.

 

[HI-NOS-Viper]

Sean, sounds like you've got a bunch of '06 coupe guys ready to bite (including me). Keep up the great work.

Not just 06 Coupes. Lets just say someone bought his forged internals kit that he has a limited supply of. I am getting ready to add LOTS of boost

 

[ScrewDrvr]

any updates?

 

[MuscleJunkie]

Any updates on this?

 

[plumcrazy]

if someone calls and talks to sean, update this thread.

but i thought he was done trying to come out with this s/c. maybe im wrong

 

[Simms]

Yea, I'm under the same impression as Plum. I thought I heard something about Sean working on a DIY turbo kit. Maybe he can confirm that as well. That would be a GREAT option for many.