Rumors...what's the dealio?

[Nine Ball]

Agreed. I'd have busted out the ban-hammer months ago on many of the trolls here. The moderators seem to be more busy deleting threads from paying members, instead of dealing with the trolls.

 

[BlackSnake99]

I'm fairly certain I agree with what you are saying, regarding this VCA situation. But, you have to agree that it is typically customary for a paid-members club to reserve club discussions with the paid members.

I KNOW you and I agree, Tony. And I agree that typically there are member only discussions in clubs. I think you and I would also agree that this situation is fairly atypical, and the discussion should be more open.

 

[Nine Ball]

We'll just agree to agree. Haha.

I've let my VCA membership lapse a year at a time also, for several reasons. Discuss away.

 

[BlackSnake99]

We'll just agree to agree. Haha.

Agreed.

 

[GTLaser]

Out of the dozen Viper owners I associate with in my area, they are not members (or no longer) because of the lack of "club" this so called "club" has to offer.... For example a drive to a lunch spot is not worth spending a yearly fee for, so maybe next year I'll just have to be an enthusiast (this year I wanted to give the club another try ).... and then my personal experience dealing with the head of this "club", that's another story.

 

[Moundir]

The problem with opening the thread up to non members is not the former members. It is that the same trolls, and probably even more, who have contaminated the Gen V Forum will end up posting and contaminating a public thread on this subject. Why not just renew at the base level VCA membership. It is not that much money.

What an asinine reply! It's pretty obvious that we the "disgruntled" ex members have tried to get things changed and failed miserably. So since our vote didnt count, we chose to vote the best way possible. With our wallets. I refuse to give one penny to the VCA unless the current "leadership" steps down and comes clean with their actions!

 

[Policy Limits]

this forum has more drama than a Jerry Springer marathon.....

ban the trolls, spill the beans and make a fee compulsory for membership/use

 

[Rizzo]

I hope something gets done. I was also a member and did not renew because of the blatant back door politics and bs that went on behind the scenes. I thought it would be a fun club to join and I didnt mind paying my yearly
dues even though i got nothing back from it. But when the bans started and all the crap started i decided to also vote with my wallet. I didnt join a car forum to deal with bs politics.

 

[Richard Koch]

Does anyone have any honest figures on how many people have joined this year compared to 2 years ago? I am fairly sure VCA wouldn't want to let it out that they are missing many of the previous club members. No Venom membership for me like I had the past several years.

 

[viper GTS-R]

this forum has more drama than a Jerry Springer marathon.....

ban the trolls, spill the beans and make a fee compulsory for membership/use

I've tried that, messaged about it, nothing has happened so far. I suppose I wouldn't mind that, so long as that fee would kick back to the forums.

Over the last twelve years I can say I've always come for the cars, but stayed for the people. I have met so many great people, made so many friends, because of THIS here. There hasn't been too many owners/members over those years that haven't given me grief about something, but I learned to brush it off and carry on about my business. What's important to me is to make the most out of it, good or bad. That was a lesson I was taught back in 01' at a Zone Rendezvous by a chapter president and I never forgot it. I can look back on the past and laugh about it now BUT in the future, things change, they always do.

To see something like this on Jalopnik? Really, the VCA is on Jalopnik? What is going on? I'm floored as to what all of this is. I've already seen the good, the bad and the ugly out of other clubs. It's a shame to see what's become of this, but from what I've gathered I think for most it needs or needed to be seen. I didn't get this stuff then, but I do now and I understand why alot of people are angry.

It almost...almost. Doesn't make me want to get one. There's more to that but I'll stop here.

--RS

 

[GR8_ASP]

First post I have made here in 3 or so years. I am extremely happy the masses are finally seeing what is happening behind closed doors. And they have not seen anything yet!

Bob Pantax you are wrong. For many of us the only vote we had was to quit paying membership dues to an address in Kansas. I, like Dean above, was a VCA member from its inception and wanted the club to thrive. However, it was being strong armed by Marshall, Spatz, Carroll and Stubberfield in a very effective manner. As stated the only true vote was to leave. And leave I did. I still own a Viper but have not participated in any Viper related activity since departing (CM made sure by writing new bylaws that effectively prevented local clubs from allowing non member Viper owner participation). Hopefully that chapter will end sooner rather than later.

 

[ROCKET62]

Thank you to everyone for keeping this a civil, respectful discussion! One can only hope that this will lead to an open discussion on how to fix the problems (or perceived problems if you disagree that there really are any issues that need to be addressed )

The trolls certainly are an issue. The ignore user feature and not responding to the ridiculous posts are certainly a good way to deal with them from a personal perspective.

Amazing how many people became frustrated and felt there was no other way to have their voice heard other than to not renew their membership.

 

[hiss highness]

I went to a vca club event on Vancouver island this year and was treated to a pretty cool event with some nice people and had the club pick up the tab for dinner as well as some awesome American couple picked up the bar tab, this was my first club event, so not sure about the other areas but was a good show, have heard that track days are covered with dues sometimes as well as good hotel rates, so for a hundred or so bucks a year seems pretty good, could use a venom emblem instead of the crappy sticker but no other complaints, and since I have no involvement in the politics then I have no solutions to offer and therefore will not troll any comments, i am also a volunteer firefighter and the people that complain the most are the ones who never attend practice or call outs, i volunteer for the greater good of the community so for those out there in vca that are there to help, I salute you as it is a thankless job

 

[swexlin]

Out of the dozen Viper owners I associate with in my area, they are not members (or no longer) because of the lack of "club" this so called "club" has to offer.... For example a drive to a lunch spot is not worth spending a yearl
y fee.

For me, I'm not made of money. The money I would have spent on this actually went towards a car repair! I was a member a year, and got nothign out of it except the ability to post in the regional forum. I go to club events, including Carlisle,and see all the local Viper people, without having to pay a fee. It's useless. Sorry, flame away. I've made MANY wonderful friends through attending Viper gatherings, and it didn't require a fee to do so. Many Viper owners aren't even aware of this website. Hell, I met a guy with a SSG ACR on Saturday that barely knew what he was driving ("only a few with this 'aero package' " was his exact quote to me!)

 

[MoparMap]

I don't necessarily mind having dues for the club if it comes with decent benefits. The magazine is pretty cool and hopefully has the printing issues sorted out now. I haven't been around long enough to attend any real national events, but VOI looks like it could be a lot of fun and I'm looking foward to hopefully making it to one one of these days. The discount at VPA can come in handy, but since it only applies to some items it's not quite as useful as I had hoped, but then again I don't hope to break things and need to replace them.

Since a lot of the trouble seems to be the interaction between VCA and VPA and the financial grey area there (at least from what I can make of what I've read), I'd almost suggest breaking the two apart entirely financially. However, to keep VPA somewhat unique to the Viper world and not just another parts distributor, make it so that you have to have a VCA membership to be able to order parts from there so that everyone gets any discounts possible.

Regardless, I've met some of the greatest people I've known through the club. I just recently joined, but it was a very welcome addition to my life since I was going through a bit of a rough patch and needed to find some new friends. My regional president is the nicest and most personable guy I've ever met and all the other members in the group are tons of fun. Most of the time when I leave any get together we do my face hurts from all the smiling and laughing. I'm looking foward to meeting some other members down at the ALMS race here in a few weeks as well to get to know more of the Viper world. It's true what they say, you might come for the cars, but you stay for the people.

 

[netapp]

Not sure why people complain about the yearly dues. A lot of the fees go back to the individual region. Out region had a christmas party which had good food and drinks and I only had to pay a few dollars to attend. If not for the yearly dues, it would have been a lot more. Our region is having a big event next month in Austin, our fee to join was only $10. Which includes a few of the meals. If people would actually be active with their local club, the yearly dues would not likely be an issue. And with the magazine and vpa discount, I think the fee is very reasonable and well spent.

 

[TowDawg]

A few points:
1. The local club only gets about $55 per member from nationals (VENOM or not), and those payments have been getting harder and harder to get for at least some areas.
2. Bob says to stay a member and work for change within the club. Unfortunately, this is not possible. As we've seen with the changes in bylaws, etc, general members have basically no voice. Everything is set up to keep those already in power, in power. The last elections are a great example of that. If you question anything, or ask a 100% legitimate question, it is deleted and you are either banned or put on "secret probation" called "moderated status". A lot of my posts or PM's here are to help other owners with their questions. When you're "moderated", sometimes it takes days for your reply to get approved. All the while, the poor guy that you could have helped is stuck.
3. 100% transparency is needed on EVERYTHING! ALL financials should be open to at least the members. This was supposed to happen, but never did. The last excuse I heard was that it could be damaging if outsiders knew the finances. Why? If they are too good/bad, is that going to cause the Corvette club to come in and do a hostile takeover of the Viper Club (a non-profit)? ANother excuse is that the VPA is a "for profit" business and therefore the finances do not have to be made public. Um, the VPA is "wholly owned" by the VCA, right? And all of the profits go back to the club, right? Open the books and show how much is coming back to the club. Technically, the statement might be correct, but what if the VPA shows no "profit" after salaries and expenses? What good does it do the club? One of my favorite statements was how the VPA saved the VCA money by taking over Herb's salary. Again, what? If the VPA's profits went to the VCA and the VCA paid Herb, who is that any different than the VPA paying directly. It's still the same amount of money coming from the organization isn't it?
4. Audits. It keeps being stated that an independent audit was done and everything was in order. There is a very big difference in whether things pass an audit, and if they are truly correct or not. For example, all of the money going to the M's (VPA, management, Viper Magazine, VOI, etc), expenses paid by the club for others (travel, warehouse rental, etc), are completely legal and would pass an audit without issue. The problem is HOW those things were decided. Totally random numbers here, but what if instead of those expenses adding up to $500k/year (all going to insiders without a bid process), could be done by others for $250k/year. Like I said, the numbers are legal and pass an audit, but it doesn't make them right.
5. Volunteer vs paid. I have NO issue with people being paid for doing a ton of work for the club or VPA. What I do have a problem with is that it's all a secret and those positions/business were just given to friends and family of those in power. Everything (especially the magazine, management, storage of VPA parts, etc) should be put out to open bids to multiple vendors. If it happens to be that the current people WIN those bids (AND everything about those bids is disclosed and why choices are made), then great. Again, I have no problem with that. BUT that is NOT the way it is happening.

Basically, there needs to be a complete re-boot of everything and put everything on the table. OPEN elections where members have a voice. OPEN financials for VPA/VCA. OPEN communication without fear of persecution, banning, or deleted threads. The by-laws need to be thrown away and replaced with ones that do not allow one or two people to unilaterally make a decision on who stays/goes, etc. This CAN be a great club again and get a lot of the older, knowledgeable members AND vendors back. Unfortunately, I just don't feel there is any way for that to happen with some of the current people in place.

 

[ROCKET62]

What about the people that do not participate in the local region (for whatever reason), and would still like to be part of the national club? Is it reasonable that nearly half of the current dues goes to that local region?

In addition to not receiving back the financial benefits - these members have NO voice in what is going on at either the local level or national level. I have long asked for a "Website Only" membership category AND a "Website Director/Zone Director" type position on the board to represent those of us that do participate in the local regions.

Not sure why people complain about the yearly dues. A lot of the fees go back to the individual region. Out region had a christmas party which had good food and drinks and I only had to pay a few dollars to attend. If not for the yearly dues, it would have been a lot more. Our region is having a big event next month in Austin, our fee to join was only $10. Which includes a few of the meals. If people would actually be active with their local club, the yearly dues would not likely be an issue. And with the magazine and vpa discount, I think the fee is very reasonable and well spent.

 

[Smog Dog]

A few points:
1. The local club only gets about $55 per member from nationals (VENOM or not), and those payments have been getting harder and harder to get for at least some areas.
2. Bob says to stay a member and work for change within the club. Unfortunately, this is not possible. As we've seen with the changes in bylaws, etc, general members have basically no voice. Everything is set up to keep those already in power, in power. The last elections are a great example of that. If you question anything, or ask a 100% legitimate question, it is deleted and you are either banned or put on "secret probation" called "moderated status". A lot of my posts or PM's here are to help other owners with their questions. When you're "moderated", sometimes it takes days for your reply to get approved. All the while, the poor guy that you could have helped is stuck.
3. 100% transparency is needed on EVERYTHING! ALL financials should be open to at least the members. This was supposed to happen, but never did. The last excuse I heard was that it could be damaging if outsiders knew the finances. Why? If they are too good/bad, is that going to cause the Corvette club to come in and do a hostile takeover of the Viper Club (a non-profit)? ANother excuse is that the VPA is a "for profit" business and therefore the finances do not have to be made public. Um, the VPA is "wholly owned" by the VCA, right? And all of the profits go back to the club, right? Open the books and show how much is coming back to the club. Technically, the statement might be correct, but what if the VPA shows no "profit" after salaries and expenses? What good does it do the club? One of my favorite statements was how the VPA saved the VCA money by taking over Herb's salary. Again, what? If the VPA's profits went to the VCA and the VCA paid Herb, who is that any different than the VPA paying directly. It's still the same amount of money coming from the organization isn't it?
4. Audits. It keeps being stated that an independent audit was done and everything was in order. There is a very big difference in whether things pass an audit, and if they are truly correct or not. For example, all of the money going to the M's (VPA, management, Viper Magazine, VOI, etc), expenses paid by the club for others (travel, warehouse rental, etc), are completely legal and would pass an audit without issue. The problem is HOW those things were decided. Totally random numbers here, but what if instead of those expenses adding up to $500k/year (all going to insiders without a bid process), could be done by others for $250k/year. Like I said, the numbers are legal and pass an audit, but it doesn't make them right.
5. Volunteer vs paid. I have NO issue with people being paid for doing a ton of work for the club or VPA. What I do have a problem with is that it's all a secret and those positions/business were just given to friends and family of those in power. Everything (especially the magazine, management, storage of VPA parts, etc) should be put out to open bids to multiple vendors. If it happens to be that the current people WIN those bids (AND everything about those bids is disclosed and why choices are made), then great. Again, I have no problem with that. BUT that is NOT the way it is happening.

Basically, there needs to be a complete re-boot of everything and put everything on the table. OPEN elections where members have a voice. OPEN financials for VPA/VCA. OPEN communication without fear of persecution, banning, or deleted threads. The by-laws need to be thrown away and replaced with ones that do not allow one or two people to unilaterally make a decision on who stays/goes, etc. This CAN be a great club again and get a lot of the older, knowledgeable members AND vendors back. Unfortunately, I just don't feel there is any way for that to happen with some of the current people in place.

Excellent post! The last paragraph really sums it up......I'm really fed up with National, and would be very happy just being an MCVO member.

Bill

 

[Smog Dog]

First post I have made here in 3 or so years. I am extremely happy the masses are finally seeing what is happening behind closed doors. And they have not seen anything yet!

Bob Pantax you are wrong. For many of us the only vote we had was to quit paying membership dues to an address in Kansas. I, like Dean above, was a VCA member from its inception and wanted the club to thrive. However, it was being strong armed by Marshall, Spatz, Carroll and Stubberfield in a very effective manner. As stated the only true vote was to leave. And leave I did. I still own a Viper but have not participated in any Viper related activity since departing (CM made sure by writing new bylaws that effectively prevented local clubs from allowing non member Viper owner participation). Hopefully that chapter will end sooner rather than later.

^^^^^ THIS


Bill

 

[MoparMan]

Not sure why people complain about the yearly dues. A lot of the fees go back to the individual region. Out region had a christmas party which had good food and drinks and I only had to pay a few dollars to attend. If not for the yearly dues, it would have been a lot more. Our region is having a big event next month in Austin, our fee to join was only $10. Which includes a few of the meals. If people would actually be active with their local club, the yearly dues would not likely be an issue. And with the magazine and vpa discount, I think the fee is very reasonable and well spent.

It depends on the region. The region I'm in now is totally worth the dues. The region I was in previously was doing nothing for the members at all.

 

[ohlarikd]

I joined this website (didn't know it was payed club?) a year and a half ago for the same reason I join so many other website forums - to gain knowledge and share experiences with like minded individuals (they don't need to be owners). I had perused the other Viper forums and found that this one had the most intelligent and respectful members, so this is the only place I frequent.

Maybe I haven't owned an expensive enough car in the past, but this whole club with a leadership board, salaries, politics, etc. etc. - I had no idea such a thing existed. I just want to come on here and talk to other member, look for mods, get things answered, and share what I learn as I become more educated.

I don't pay now since I still don't understand what I am paying so much money for. 'Join the VCA' is the first thing you get when you sign on to here, but really - to someone like me who hasn't been around for this site for a decade, you are hesitant since the incredibly complex financials here are beyond what I though this club was about.

Most sites have a small fee to pay for the server and the costs of running a website. I am ok with that. With so many members, it is very expensive and time consuming to run a site. I am also ok with paying a small fee to keep trolls off the board - that is worth it to me.

I guess like so many newcomers, I don't understand what the club does, nor do I have the time to take part in whatever benefits the club may provide. I also don't like that certain vendors seem to have been banned for what appears to be competitive reasons, despite what I heard about them 'breaking the rules'.

I come to this site for the MEMBERS, that is all. Again, I would pay $10-$20 a year for site maintenance and troll-avoidance.

 

[Bobpantax]

Thread still open. No deletions. You are witnessing change in progress. There will be more in the upcoming days. Change is possible within the system. It just takes a bit of patience, politeness and persistence. Despite the emotion during the dust up, all of the parties really have more in common than they have apart. They all love the Viper and more than a few like driving in Mexico. Hopefully, cooler heads will soon prevail and we will move forward past the current bump.

 

[kratedisease]

I joined this website (didn't know it was payed club?) a year and a half ago for the same reason I join so many other website forums - to gain knowledge and share experiences with like minded individuals (they don't need to be owners). I had perused the other Viper forums and found that this one had the most intelligent and respectful members, so this is the only place I frequent.

Maybe I haven't owned an expensive enough car in the past, but this whole club with a leadership board, salaries, politics, etc. etc. - I had no idea such a thing existed. I just want to come on here and talk to other member, look for mods, get things answered, and share what I learn as I become more educated.

I don't pay now since I still don't understand what I am paying so much money for. 'Join the VCA' is the first thing you get when you sign on to here, but really - to someone like me who hasn't been around for this site for a decade, you are hesitant since the incredibly complex financials here are beyond what I though this club was about.

Most sites have a small fee to pay for the server and the costs of running a website. I am ok with that. With so many members, it is very expensive and time consuming to run a site. I am also ok with paying a small fee to keep trolls off the board - that is worth it to me.

I guess like so many newcomers, I don't understand what the club does, nor do I have the time to take part in whatever benefits the club may provide. I also don't like that certain vendors seem to have been banned for what appears to be competitive reasons, despite what I heard about them 'breaking the rules'.

I come to this site for the MEMBERS, that is all. Again, I would pay $10-$20 a year for site maintenance and troll-avoidance.

Interesting. I guess the Forums should be like a gated community. A silly guard at the gate that only allows in people who agree that everyone's house should be decorated the SAME.

Very interesting...

 

[ohlarikd]

Interesting. I guess the Forums should be like a gated community. A silly guard at the gate that only allows in people who agree that everyone's house should be decorated the SAME.

Very interesting...

I don't know what that means. I only pay on a few other forums to support the upkeep and time to the people who dedicate themselves to creating and maintaining the forum. Advertising pays for the rest. I was NOT initially aware of all the stuff that goes on behind the scenes in a boardroom, and I don't think ANYONE that is new here would ever imagine that.

What is the implication here: "only allows in people who agree that everyone's house should be decorated the SAME."

 

[BlackSnake99]

Thread still open. No deletions. You are witnessing change in progress. There will be more in the upcoming days. Change is possible within the system.

Let me test the waters of change....


JonB, JonB, JonB, JonB.......

 

[ROYMAN]

My decision to not pay a membership fee was a calculated one that I stand behind.
How am I supposed to get a solid ROI on a membership fee when:
1. I drive my Viper only a few months of the year, and therefore am limited to which regional events I can attend- this # is further restricted by regional weather (Massachusetts)
2. I don't have the time or resources to drop everything I am doing, even when planned in advance, and go cross country to the "bigger" meets, namely the VOI
3. Everything that one receives as a measurable, financial return from paying a membership fee falls into one of three categories: discounts received when spending additional money on goods from "supporting" vendors; the "eligibility" to spend more money on a raffle; or stuff I don't want/need/care about (stickers, t-shirts, magazines, liability insurance at meets I can't attend etc..)

That being said, I really have nothing to gain by paying a membership fee. For $100, I could buy a vanity plate, some minor DIY project parts for the Viper or a half decent bottle of wine. I would rather put my money towards any of those items than spend it on a club membership that I will never realize the full benefits of. As a side note, the lack of transparency scared me away from shipping my $100 in years ago, out of principal alone.

 

[ROCKET62]

Let me test the waters of change....


JonB, JonB, JonB, JonB.......

Barbecue, Barbecue, Barbecue (for those around long enough to remember Vegas )

 

[kratedisease]

Barbecue, Barbecue, Barbecue (for those around long enough to remember Vegas )

Rudys Tacos, Rudy's Tacos, Rudy's Tacos

 

[MoparMan]

Barbecue, Barbecue, Barbecue (for those around long enough to remember Vegas )

If you're going to go that far you might as well go all the way and mention it was held at Sheri's Ranch. However, I suspect the twitchiness over that event subsided with the departure of Mr. Herbert quite some time ago.