Scott Mead "Vette remains King of American Drop-tops"

Marv S

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Scott Mead \"Vette remains King of American Drop-tops\"

New Motortrend may 2003 pp74 ends an article on the vette and svt stang with the statement "the Corvette remains the King of the American drop-tops".

Who is that writer?

http://www.motortrend.com/corporate/contact/index.html

Well, I guess they put the mustang on the same level as the vette for comparos but SRT-10 Viper is drop-top and American made last I heard.
 

Hans Christian

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Re: Scott Mead

Who cares what these guys say anyway. I at least couldn't care less - I don't need their blessing that or info on the fact that the Viper is and always will be the KING of the hill !!

YEAH BRING THEM ON !!
 

Russ Oasis

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Re: Scott Mead

I have said it before and I will say it again: I can't understand why any Viper owner EVER lets any comparison to the Corvette even register in their mind. Corvettes are NOT in our league...money wise, style wise, performance wise and race wise. Why do we even devote one line of space to it?
 

SSSSE YA

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Re: Scott Mead

I have said it before and I will say it again: I can't understand why any Viper owner EVER lets any comparison to the Corvette even register in their mind. Corvettes are NOT in our league...money wise, style wise, performance wise and race wise. Why do we even devote one line of space to it?

Oh yea :rolleyes: :usa: :usa:
 

SylvanSRT

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Re: Scott Mead

I think that the convt. vettes are still only 350 hp. Not even worth wasting gas or time on. Altough if they are nice cars, for someone else!
 

agentf1

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Re: Scott Mead

Before you guys freak out on me... I too would take the SRT 10 over a vette vert. But a Super Charged Vette vert vs the SRT would be a tough decision. :usa:
 

Viperfreak2

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Re: Scott Mead

Agentf1, the truth is you don't have a Z06 CONVERTIBLE, there isn't one. The drop top vette has 350hp....what would that be on a dyno to the wheels? 290-300! PITIFUL. Now to your second ignorant post. Supercharged vette? You can modify a pinto to make huge hp if you want, it still ain't no 8.3 liter V10, and a 5.7 V8 will never be either. Modify both equally and compare. Corvettes are nice cars, just too generic. Nothing to say about 35,000 built per year vs. 1500 Vipers huh? I rented a Malibu last week in New York. How special I felt.
 

agentf1

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Re: Scott Mead

Freak2, if you read my post I never stated that my Z was a vert and am very well aware that you need to go to carvaggio if you want one. I am also aware that the verts come with 350 hp and that is why I wouldn't consider one unless it was supercharged. As far as the supercharged pinto it sounds like thats what you should probably be driving. As far as ignorant post maybe you should read your own. Actually your post would probably fall under ignorant and rude. I am glad you feel so special in your 1500 a year Dodge, I too feel special in my 7000 a year Chevrolet. Get a life. Its people like you that give Viper owners a bad name. Fortunately most that I meet are really great people and true car guys but I guess you get a few bad apples in every bunch. Lighten up... :rolleyes:
 

agentf1

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Re: Scott Mead

You're kidding, right?


Birvini, not really. I would probably opt for the SRT 10 since it would still be stock with a warranty etc and I am not big on mods but, have you ever driven a SC'd vette? They are fun cars, some with close to 500 at the wheels... I know you are all going to throw that 35,000 number back in my face etc... And looks ARE subjective but you cannot argue the fact that a C5 with a SC is not a fun, fast car.
 

agentf1

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Re: Scott Mead

All I know is that I regret buying my C5. Buncha problems GM knew about, but didn't bother to fix.

Sorry to hear that. I know they do have a few issues that should have been resolved long ago like column lock etc... but fortunately mine has been flawless so far and I love it. As soon as it starts to give me problems you can bet I will be trading it in for a gen II GTS but for now I am happy. What problems did you have? And can you honestly tell me that Dodge has their **** that much more together? My biggest concern is if I have a problem with the GTS I have to go 2 hours to Buhler for service. Although that may be better than the situation I am in now because I am not sure what Chevy dealer I would trust to do my work.

P.S. If anybody cares I hear the 2004 Z06 w/Z16 will have 450 hp. One can only hope right. I also heard that 2006 will be 500+, almost sounds to good to be true. Sorry for getting off topic I do realize this is a Viper Board. :smirk:
 

Dead President

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Re: Scott Mead \"Vette remains King of American Drop-tops\"

You can hop up a Mustang, Corvette or a Camaro, and guess what . . . they are what they are. It may be faster than a Ferrari but it will still be a Mustang, Corvette, or Camaro. Saleen, Cobra, SS, Z06 . . . it's like caviar on a McDonald's (over 6 billion served) hamburger.
 

Snakester

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Re: Scott Mead

New Motortrend may 2003 pp74 ends an article on the vette and svt stang with the statement "the Corvette remains the King of the American drop-tops".

Wasn't it Motor Trend who chose the BMW M3 as the best high performance car over the Z06 despite lower performance numbers all around because the M3 had "back seats".

you have to understand that most of these automotive journalists test Camrys, Corollas, and lumbering SUVs 95% of the time, and economy, price, and practicality are as important to them as acceleration and handling.

So it's easy to understand why the writers usually look down on the Viper. It's about as far from a practical minivan as you can get (thank goodness!), and it wasn't designed to carry a lot of cargo, or get great gas mileage, or to be as comfy as your living room sofa.

The only part that gets me is that they never complain about the high price, practicality or gas mileage of the Lamborghini Murcielago (10/14MPG), or the harsh ride and price gouging of the Porsche GT2 and 360 Spyder.

And all of the magazines are VERY careful to never put cars like the $$$ Ferrari 360, Z8, Murcielago, and GT2 against the SRT-10 Viper or Z06, because then they would have to complain about them equally. And praise them similarly.

-Dean.
 

Viperfreak2

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Re: Scott Mead

Awwww, did I make someone mad? I'm sorry-waurry. NOT. My post had a point. Vipers are rare and fast. Yes, I get beat by highly modified (non street legal) Mustangs and Vettes and Camaros at the drapstrip, but beyond the sheetmetal (or plastic) there is almost nothing common to a factory car. The Vette is nice, but to feel good I like to be unique. I look up to the Ferrari guys because they are in an even better position...the almost never see another cruising, and if it was the same model and color, that would mean a car show was in town. Big town. Major city. I should be driving a Pinto? I can afford to drive what I want, and for that I feel lucky. The SRT is the king of American drop tops. Amen ( and to come into a Viper forum and ask for abuse is ignorant )
 

91ZR1#661

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Re: Scott Mead

Sorry,
But the corvette is still the premier american sports car.
And the "King" title belongs to the ZR1 thank you very much.
95yellovett
 

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Re: Scott Mead

Was the only sportscar up until '92. I would agree if you said best selling 30,000+. Thats about it and the King title belongs to the GT500 KR, Carroll Shelby took it before GM could use it.
 

GR8_ASP

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Re: Scott Mead

95YellowVett is correct. Th corvette is the king of sports cars in the US. Only because the Viper is in the exotic or supercar class and not the sports car class. It is seldom compared directly to the other sports cars such as Boxster, Miata, Z3 or 4, etc.

Now if the comparo was regarduing fastest, best handling production cars made in the US the corvette would come in a distant 2nd, or possibly third.
 

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Re: Scott Mead

I smoked a late model ZR1 at the Carlsbad raceway with my comparatively slow stock '93 RT/10 in 1995. ZR1 prices demonstrate their lack of desirability now that even a mustang cobra can whoop it. They need to compare the vette to a mustang or a boxster. It is definitely not in the supercar/exotic class.

Why don't these ponycar guys bother the Porsche club owners website?
 

Viperfreak2

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Re: Scott Mead

Why don't these ponycar guys bother the Porsche club owners website? They do. 'Someone' called me rude because their flame suit was made out of toilet paper. I guess they just don't understand that a "Mustang guy" going into the Corvette website saying that the Mustang is THE KING of American drop tops would be silly. Or hey, maybe the Sebring owners going into the Mustang website to insist they are the kings. SRT's rule. Until a 360 Spyder comes along.....
 

M. ROD

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Re: Scott Mead

360 Spyder, very nice looking car. Shall look even better, in the SRT-10's rear view mirror :D .
 

Bwright

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Re: Scott Mead

I have said it before and I will say it again: I can't understand why any Viper owner EVER lets any comparison to the Corvette even register in their mind. Corvettes are NOT in our league...money wise, style wise, performance wise and race wise. Why do we even devote one line of space to it?

:mad:

It mystifies me why sports car owners constantly feel the need to put down other cars in an attempt to justify/elevate theirs. This is particularly curious when their assertions are not supported by publicly available fact.

To suggest that a Corvette is not in the same league as a Viper financially necessarily asserts that finances are a key determinant of performance. Yet at less than 1/3rd the price the GTS Viper has proven itself readily capable of defeating the Ferrari 550 Maranello in most usable areas of performance (Motor Trend, July 1999). That simple fact puts paid (no pun intended) to the idea that sheer price makes something better than the other. Every modern Ferrari costs more than a Viper but only one, the $650K Enzo, is likely able to defeat it. Given the torque advantage and available traction of the SRT-10 I am not convinced that even the Enzo would survive a midrange run from say 100 - 180mph against an SRT-10.

Herb Helbig, then vehicle synthesis manager for the Viper, recounts that when Bob Lutz retired he pulled him aside and said, "Above all, you've got to keep the Corvette in its place by having the Viper at the top of the performance heap. If they've got 400 horsepower, you better have more than 400." For a car supposedly not in the Viper's class the architects and keepers of the flame at team Viper seem inordinately preoccupied with it. I wonder why.

Style is in the eye of the beholder and is largely subjective. I will say that the Viper's look is unquestionably more arresting than that of the current C5. However, neither car will draw the attention that the elegant 575 Maranello will. This does not make the Maranello a better car and does not make either the Vette or Viper less than. Aston Martin's Vanquish is quite stylish. The Porsche Turbo's look is that of a timeless classic. Despite this, both cars can be readily taken down by others costing a fraction of their price (my notes, Automobile magazine, March 2003).

Performance? The current Z06 Corvette has proven in publicly available head to head empirical testing that it is competitive with the world's best, including, of course, the Viper (Automobile magazine November 2002, Car and Driver September 2002). The difference in power-to-weight ratio between the two cars is only 0.2 lbs./hp in the Viper's favor.

Race performance? I am astonished that anyone would even attempt to use this to denigrate the Corvette. The Viper has been around for about 11 years and in that relatively short time has amassed a laudable number of race victories worldwide including the FIA GT2 championships in 1997 and 1998 and the reclassified FIA GT championship in 1999. It won the ALMS GTS Teams title and Driver's and Manufacturer's Championships in 1999. It won its class at Le Mans from 1998 - 2000, the 24 hours of Daytona in 2000 and it won again at Sebring. It is doubtless that the tradition will continue.

However, the Corvette has existed for 50 years. To even invite a comparison is to ignore both basic fact and simple math. Corvettes have been competing and winning in worldwide endurance racing since 1956 at Sebring. The marque would go on to win 13 more times by 2002. Under the auspices of the Briggs Cunningham team the Corvette won its class at the 24 Hours of Le Mans in 1960 in VIN 102538, almost three decades before the Viper would be a formative gleam in the eyes of Messrs. Iacocca and Lutz.

Corvettes such as the 1968 L-88 sponsored by Owens/Corning Fiberglas and campaigned by such drivers as Tony DeLorenzo, Jerry Thompson, Jerry Hansen and other proved virtually unstoppable in FIA A-Production from 1968-1973. In 1969 and 1970 it won its class at the 24 Hours of Daytona.

In 2001 the factory Corvette team finished 1-2, 200 miles ahead of their GTS competition. In 2002 the Corvette C5-R driven by Oliver Gavin, Johnny O'Connell and Ron Fellows won nine out of 10 American Le Mans Series races earning the ALMS manufacturer, team and driver championships and finished 1-2 at Le Mans for the second consecutive year. In its last race it finished 8 laps ahead of its closest competitor. Production C5s extended this streak through the Grand Am Cup and SCCA. As the oldest continuously produced sports car in the world the Corvette has long since earned the right to respect for its racing pedigree. Unless they have a time machine, everyone else plays catch up. As then Team Viper Executive Engineer Roy Sjoberg once commented in reference to the 1966 Corvette which he races, "I can't go vintage racing in a Viper."

Herb Helbig once said, "The Corvette-Viper rivalry, we couldn't hope for a better situation. Make no mistake about it, the Corvette guys are a lot like we are. We are all gearheads. They play to a little bit different audience, but they have the same kind of guys and we all have performance in mind." It is that kind of informed respect that should permeate the relationship between the Viper and Corvette. This solidarity should extend to the upcoming Ford GT which, in its previous incarnation as the legendary GT40, so defeated Ferraris at Le Mans that they stopped racing at the legendary circuit for years. That these three legendary American nameplates will soon stand shoulder to shoulder astride worldwide motorsports in the face of often contemptuous European competition should inspire camaraderie among their owners.

The Viper is tied to the Corvette in thought, design and execution. Zora-Arkus Duntov, known as the "Father of the Corvette," influenced the Viper's development, through Roy Sjoberg's pre-Viper apprenticeship on the Corvette program. It is no surprise that Arkus-Duntov was especially invited to attend the Viper's press launch event. For his part, Sjoberg used his past connections to the Corvette team to persuade them to incorporate a key Corvette part in the Viper. In the Viper's early development neither ZF nor Getrag could design a durable and affordable transmission for the car. Finally, the Viper team settled on the Borg-Warner T-56 transmission developed for GM and the Corvette. As Sjoberg later acknowledged, GM could have vetoed any chance of Dodge sharing the transmission. As the transmission was the "biggest problem" in the business case supplier issue, this may have effectively ended the car's gestation. But, as Sjoberg noted, GM gave its blessing after deciding "they wanted the competition." And so today the Viper exists.

Would that some of its wanna-be elitist drivers would pick up a book.
 

Snakester

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Re: Scott Mead

It's interesting that the T-56 transmission is now also available in the 400HP+ SVT Cobra. Do they want the competition THAT much?
 

SnakeBitten

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Re: Scott Mead

Bwright those are some good points you made....I agree with you on the substance of your post....Every board has these kind of "my car is better than yours" nonsence to some degree....But on this board it just happens to be the truth :D the Viper is a better performance car than the Vette regardless of how close the Vette is in performance to an 11 year old design...

I will own a C5 soon so I'm a fan of both car's...But my dreamcar is the Viper..When I am better off financially and in a better neighborhood the C5 will be replaced with a GTS...There is something about the Viper, presence, maybe even a soul that, as much as I love the Vette, it just doesn't have that...

As regard's GM's Le Man's win's...It's common knowledge that Dodge abbandoned the Viper program after it proved it's point with the Viper. Factory racecar VS Factory racecar The Viper dominated the Vette....GM unlike DC continued support of the C5R against privateer AVR who have nowhere near the $$ for R&D etc....It's no mystery why the Viper's haven't been able to win.....We all know that if DC continued it's support the Vette's would not be dominating like they are now....Oreca had some incredible driver's as well....Weren't the Oreca Viper's saddled with restrictor's to give the other car's in it's class a chance??...MHO
 

Bwright

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Re: Scott Mead

It's interesting that the T-56 transmission is now also available in the 400HP+ SVT Cobra. Do they want the competition THAT much?

Borg-Warner eventually sold the T-56 transmission to Tremec. This effectively changed the cozy supplier relationship with GM allowing Tremec a freer hand in choosing the transmission's buyers.
 

Bwright

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Re: Scott Mead

Snakebitten,

There are three generations of Viper. If you compare the current Corvette Z06 to the Generation I Viper the Corvette will likely come out on top. As you rightly pointed out, what can one expect against the Gen I Viper's advanced age. What is amazing is how well the Z06 compares to the GTS which debuted for 1996. In both of the track events I cited earlier the Z06 eked out a marginal win while falling behind, in one case significantly, on long straightaways. One of its road course wins (Automobile Magazine test) was against none other than the all-new SRT-10. This does not change the fact that the Vette lost to the GTS in Car and Driver's overall test. No way to slice or spin it. The Vette was well driven and won two out of three categories but lost overall by almost a second. Indeed, the better performance car won that day.

The best public testing of these cars is done annually by Car and Driver and Motor Trend in their high-speed shootouts. However, I think the best indicator of how well the new SRT-10 and the Viper name square off against the Vette will come when it faces off against the C6 set to debut 1Q 2004. Vette chief engineer Dave Hill has already indicated that the Vette will not boast Viper level power but weight savings, as in the Z06, could level the playing field a bit. My take? The odds are heavily in the Viper's favor but I expect the Vette to prove itself, as always, a worthy contender.

As for racing, the official reason cited by DC for pulling out of Le Mans was not that they had proven their point but that they did not have the funds to continue. With development of the all-new SRT-10 sucking up resources DC decided that NASCAR was more rewarding financially compared to Le Mans and the company's racing program needed to start generating some real profit. Remember, the Viper is Dodge's loss leader and so has to draw on the financial resources of the rest of DC to support both the road and race cars. GM, with the deepest pockets in the industry, was at one point competing in NASCAR while running not one but four (2 Cadillac and two Corvette) Le Mans teams. But the Corvette turns a sizable profit for GM and so they can continue for three straight years at Le Mans at which point, if they win, they get to actually take the trophy home with them as Audi has.

The sad part of the limited money available to the Viper team is that they have actually cited it as the reason they could not do the much desired coupe alongside the SRT-10. I have always said on this board that I wish DC would increase Viper production to 3,000 units so that the car could eke out even a small profit which would enable them to better chart their own course. Even Ferrari makes more than 4,000 cars a year. Lamborghini has plans with the new Gallardo to increase sales to 1,200+. Bentley has plans to sell 4,000 cars next year on the strength of the $150K Continental GT. These are some of the most exclusive names in the industry selling cars at 2X that of the SRT-10. Let's go Dodge! Let's get off the high horse and put some Viper money in the bank. It's own money. But that is a whole other discussion. Until then, I look forward to seeing a factory backed Viper team back at Le Mans. Even if it defeats the Vette it gladdens my heart to see an American performance car at the top of the heap. :usa:

Good luck with your C5. My only regret with mine is not buying it sooner. It has proven incredible in the almost five years I have owned it. It reminds me that those who speak ill of American cars are truly not familiar with them. I will miss it when it is gone and will always regard the marque with respect. In my years of ownership it earned it. Sometime in January of 2004 I will likely take delivery on an SRT-10. I am looking forward to it.
 

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Re: Scott Mead

Bwright I suspected you owned a Vette :D Nevertheless you are right about the Z06 being close to the GTS performance-wise....I used to be like you and put faith in magazine numbers and results....Until I discovered the Viper/Vettes board....The mag drivers cant even get an 11 sec pass out of a GTS...We all know now that its been done so many times in a stock GTS by there owners...Just as they cant get a Z06 to run 12.5 or better.....

Since you trust magazines so much I remember a C&D shootout that pitted 911tt vs Z06 vs GTS...The 911 had H. Haywood as pilot :eek: ..The Z06 had Heinricy :eek: The GTS had....Larry Webster :( Dodge just sent the Viper with no driver....

Results....roadcourse Z06/911tt both post 57.7 with supermen driving it...The lowly :D magiazine driver was only .5 behind at 58.2...He said if they had supplied a better driver the Viper would have won....He was scared to drive the car in his own words....the reason the Z06 get better times from the mags is because its easier to drive fast compared to the Viper....When you put equal skill drivers in both vehicles the GTS will win....BTW the GTS was getting creamed in the braking in turns...That is the biggest reason the Z06 and Porsche can come close to the Vipers time stock for stock along with a less than stellar driver...Dont know why DC gave it less than phenominal brakes with that kind of power...If you put better brakes on the Viper its over...

Do you honestly believe that the Z06 can keep up with the SRT10 because of one half-azzed article??It can barely hold its own against the GTS....In the hands of Tommy Archer it was almost 4 seconds faster than the GTS..I forgot which roadcourse it was...I read that somewhere on this board....
 

JRod

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Re: Scott Mead

Hey look, we bought the cars we liked. I could have bough the Viper or the Z06. I bought the Z06 becasue I felt like it was a more refined platform than the Viper at that time. The new Viper has fixed many of the old issues with the Viper. There is no doubt Dodge has made a lot of headway. But I still like my Z06... But thats just me...

I have raced a 2003 Viper in my Z06, the races are much closer than many of you might imagine...

Sure, there are a lot of Vettes out there. Yes there are much fewer Vipers, and even fewer Ferraris. And in the same vein, there are many more Mustangs and Camaros than Corvettes.

Someone who owns a Viper and a Z06 or a regular Corvette can probably point out the pluses and minuses of each. I know that a friend of mine owns a Lingenfelter prepped C4, a 2001 Z06, a Supercharged 96 GTS, and a 2003 Viper. He can tell you all about what each one does better or worse than the other. I know from his perspective the C4 had better brakes and handled better than his 96 GTS at the track. FRom what he told me, the Z06 was a considerable upgrade to the C4, as a former owner of a C4 I would agree. His perspective on the 96 GTs to the '03 was that it is a quantum leap, and it was a much better all around car than the GTS. I don't think he has tracked the car yet, but I look forward to his commentary on it...

He doesn't think any one of them is a POS if he did, he probably wouldn't own them. As for me, I give props to the Vipers, but, I like my Z06... But thats just me...

As for the C6 GM is looking to cut weight in the standard coupe by at least 200 lbs over the current Z06. Also, the current 5.7L is moving to a 6.4L motor making ~455HP. So, no it won't be Viper level HP, but look at the weight and do the HP/weight calcualtion and it gets a bit more interesting... -200lbs +50HP. Anyway, I am all for the HP war.

It only benefits us...
 

Viperfreak2

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Re: Scott Mead

The point of the topic (unfortunately) leaves out all Z06's. Why? When GM chooses to put the wonderful Z06 drivetrain in the convertible body, we can compare Z06 conv VS. SRT. OR WHEN DC COMES OUT WITH A HARDTOP SRT-10! I know convertibles have to weigh more than coupes (hence the only reason the Z06 is only available one way) and if DC could cut 200+ lbs of curb weight......think about it.
 

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