Should I buy a track car?

Doc.

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Okay I need advise from all the track rats. I have a '96 B/W GTS (see sig below for mods) and I am wanting to do Viper Days for 2004. I can make 4-5 events next year but time constraints will probably keep me from doing more than that. I have only been to one track event so far but I'm hooked. Do you think I should just spend a little money on my GTS for upgrades ie brakes, rollbar etc. and spend most of my money on seat time. Or should I just buy a dedicated track car and not beat up on my GTS. All replies are welcome.
Thanks,Doc
 

Chuck 98 RT/10

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Everybody already knows my answer.

You answered your own question. You're "hooked." Translation: "I have to do whatever I can to go faster."

Now the question is, how much can you afford and how much can you get on the black market for the wife and kids?
 

malcoll

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Doc,
I am faced with a similar question since being bitten by the bug. I have a 1996 RT... and I am finding it more palatable for the wife for me to make mods to my RT and just have the one Viper for right now.

Yes mods are somewhat expensive, and if you wreck it.... well let's just say that be very bad....... but keeping up maintenance on two toys, and the family vehicle is burdensome (I have my Viper and a 1969 Mach I.. and our family vehicle).

Beat up on the GTS... it can take it.
 

NDW

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Kevin,

Wish you could have made it to the finals event, you would have enjoyed it greatly.

I am faced with the same decision you are. I have decided that in my case it will be better to modify my current car rather than purchase a purely track car. I have installed the Stop Tech 4 wheel kit, tow hooks, front brake cooling kit, heat shields on the rubber boots, and roll bar and other safety equipment on order. Suspension upgrades are scheduled for the winter months. I also purchased a Kwik Load trailer to take the car to the events.

You might say that I drank the purple koolade.

BTW, me and 3 other Viper buds are going to MSR to run all day Thursday. If you are able to join us, come on.

Malcoll is right, the car can take the mild abuse that we dish out.
 
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Doc.

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Newt,
I wish I could have come to the finals too but I could not get off work. I am working Thursday also or I would love to join you. I will be going to Bobby Archer's driving clinic on Dec 10th if you can make it. I'm glad I'm not the only one with this dilemma. Misery does love company. The two Viper question is always a rhetorical one with Chuck.
Doc
 

BIGBADCJ

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doc, send it to scott in tampa, he will make that thing perfect for both. thats what i did!!
 

Tomcat

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Newt, you did it right and Doc could follow your lead. Doc, the Stoptech big brake kit will help to provide you with much better braking and a margin of safety over the stock brakes (less likely to fade).

In 2004 Eyal, Newt (you are joining us), and myself will be doing the eastern VD events, 7 in all plus the finals. After Newt's mods, mostly to make the car handle better and be reliable for three consecutive days of tracking the car, hear is what Eyal and myself will be doing this Winter:
+ Racing seat (Comp Coup seat or Sparco);
+ Stoptech brakes (Eyal only). I will stay with stock calipers that will be rebuilt plus new Stoptech rotors. I want to run in the Super Stock class versus prepared next year. I am going to PFC01's or Hawk's versus Brakeman 3's. The 3's did not last for me.
+ Roll bar, I am thinking about the BTR roll bar;
+ Hot lap timer to see if changes you make during a session are effective. A must have.

Again, I would start with Newt's mods and make those additions that provide safety and reliability. The car is fast enough as it sits.

just my .02
 

jrkermode

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If you are on a budget, any rational person will tell you, yes, you should buy a track car. A dedicated formula or sportsracing car will allow you to go faster, safer and cheaper than a Viper.

Fortunately, you didn't ask a rational person, you came to the Viper Board!

Tracking your Viper is OK so long as you never ever ever ever ever use sticky tires.

If you do, it will bring to light the myriad deficiencies in your car and your abilities. In diabolical Track Rat logic, the solution to this problem is never to simply go back to stock tires. Instead, you'll need shocks. Since shocks are valved to specific spring rates, you may as well get springs to. But, wait a minute, if you're going to be cornering faster, you're going to be entering the straights faster, which means your entry to the next corner will be faster. How are you going to stop that thing? With stock brakes? Are you insane!?! So, you'll need brakes too. You know, with adequate brakes, there's really nothing holding you back from a few power adders......

To get an idea of where this all ends(?) check out Doug Hayashi's www.pulpracing.com
 

Russ Oasis

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What jrkermode says is right on. The fact that you have sipped the purple kool aid is the problem. You'll now want to go faster and faster each event. To do that, you'll want to add more and more things to your car. Doing that, makes it less streetable to the point that you're now trying to drive a race car on the street. It doesn't work. At what point do you want to change the wheels? And then remember that when you change the wheels (and add stickier tires) you will need to change the bearings on a scheduled basis. The brakes that you'll want to use for the track won't work well on the street because you'll need to warm them up before they start to grip well and then they'll make noise on the street. Of course, there will be the point that you realize you need a roll bar and 5 point harnesses, etc, etc, etc. If it was me, I'd find an inexpensive Gen II coupe and use it as a track car. Then you never have to feel bad about beating on the car at the track. I know this is the more expensive way, but if you can afford to do it, it's the better way from my perspective. Just my .02.
 

Fast Viper Dan

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Don't bite me here guy's. I went thru the same thing and wound up buying a Panoz GTS race car. Why? well I run a bought 10 seconds faster (Average) than my near stock Viper and it's cheep to fix.
Also it is vary safe. Roll cage etc. I love my GTS Viper and try to track it at least once a year just to keep up with the level of enjoyment it produces. The Panoz has great brakes and handles like a dream. The power is less than the viper but if you wish that is easy and cheep to increase.
If the cost is not an issue for you look at one of the left over GTS cars from the VRL. There might still be some around for sale. The guy's and gal's that moved to the CC's had put a lot of time and money into these cars. I have seen them listed for around $80k. Just don't forget the cost to maintain these cars. They go thru allot of brakes, and a body parts can be vary expensive.
Then again, if cost is not an issue buy a CC.
My $.02
Enjoy Viper Day's !
Dan
 

NDW

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Russ and others are correct in that the cycle of improvements never end. For instance, when you change the shocks, then you need to change the springs, the sway bars, all of the bushings, the sway bar ends,.......??

For me, it boiled down to the fact that this is a hobby for me. I will never make any money on the deal (although I will spend a ***), it is just for fun. I have a budget in mind for what I am willing to spend for this fun. Right now safety concerns are top on my list. I have my employees and their families depending on me being here to keep my companies running, not to mention my own family.

It would be cheaper in the long run if you decide to go the full nine yards with track events to buy a track car right from the start. Russ has told me about a couple of excellent cars that are available at a fraction of what the owner has in them.

You need to decide what the ultimate goal of your track participation is, and make the best decision based on your own situation. For me, it was doing a few upgrades to my car and being satisfied that I am lucky enough to own the car and go to the track occasionally. :2tu: :usa:
 

Sonny 00 GTS ACR

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Expect to spent 30k+ (usually more like 50K when you're done) to bring a street car to where it is both safe and competitive. Add that to the cost of your street viper and you're talking 100K to 130k. Buy one of the existing track cars for sale right now for 50k to 90k and you're good to go with a full roll cage and all the performance equipment you'll need. It was the best thing I could have done three years ago. I paid 70k for John Cooper's VRL GTS and I've used it for the past three seasons and have learned a lot in a very short time. My 2000 ACR is still stock and street driven, where it belongs. Good Luck!
 

Frank Parise

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The most important mods are for safety and they include a full roll cage, fire system, master cut-off switches, 6-point race harnesses, race seat, arm restraints and/or window net, quality crash helmet and nomex firesuit, head sock, gloves, shoes, and underwear. This is the most fundamental of racing needs and you can see that your street car wouldn't be very fun to drive with all the necessary safety mods.

Buy yourself a quality VRL/GT1 racer. It is currently a buyer's market where a good car can be had for as low as $60,000 - $70,000. If you go the other route and don't spend the $50K Sonny is talking about, you'll end up with either a half-a$$ racecar or a half-a$$ street car, perhaps both.

If money is no problem, buy a new Competition Coupe. They are made specifically for what you are talking about and are a turn-key passport to the beginner/racer's fantasyland.
 

FrankBarba

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Dan what year is your near stock viper? Reason for asking is here in the mid atlantic region i am running an average of 2 seconds faster than the Panoz.
 

Russ Oasis

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I had a friend look at that car that is on EBay and he reports that it is in rough shape. It is a good price though. If someone is considering that car, I'd suggest that they check it out (or have it checked out) in person before bidding on it.
 

Chuck 98 RT/10

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You guys are recommending purchasing a dedicated track car for wheel to wheel competition. Doc has not mentioned whether he planned to run wheel to wheel or timed events like The Michelin Challenge. Timed events of course wouldn't require the butchering with all the safety equipment. However, I still recommend getting a dedicated track car even for just timed/open track events if you can.
 

ViperRay

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Doc,
It's great to see other people having the same thoughts and and questions I have. I am new to vipers and racing both (bought my '97 GTS this spring). I took it to my first track event (local DE club event) shortly thereafter. I only did it because it was frustrating having this car with enormous potential and not being able to exercise it on the street. Then came another track weekend and then another. Now I'm in your situation...here's my $.02 (and this assumes that you are not already an experienced racer). I know these experienced racers who've responded to your question here are right, buy the track car if you can afford it and be done with it. As an analogy, I'm also a car collector and the general rule is to buy the car you want that is already as fully restored as you can afford...it's always less expensive than doing it yourself. But, there's one more thing to consider...the hobby of restoring cars can be very enjoyable and very educational if knowing as much as you can about the car and being able to work on the car yourself interests you.
I think of my new track hobby that way. If I was already an experienced and talented racer, I would buy the comp coupe but alas I am not. I am still not yet driving my (mostly) stock GTS anywhere near its limit, though perhaps you are. My feeling is that as my skills and experience grow, and if I feel that the car (and not my lack of skill) is preventing me from going faster, I'll add the appropriate mods little by little and have a better understanding of what effect they're having (safety mods excepted). If and when I reach a point where my time and talent allow me to even think I can be on the same track with these guys then I'll throw in the towell and get the total track car. Like you, I plan on doing about 5 or so track weekends per year. At that rate, I think I can have a streetable car for a long time while enjoying road racing as a hobby.
 

Fast Viper Dan

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Dan what year is your near stock viper? Reason for asking is here in the mid atlantic region i am running an average of 2 seconds faster than the Panoz.

Frank,
My GTS is a "99" non ACR. Just to clear, I am comparing my time in the Viper with street tires to my time in the Panoz with Hoosier's on our tracks that are 2:00 min. +/- lap times. I was tiring to find some history from the Viper Days web site but it was not taking me back to 2001, 2002.
Are you comparing your time in a Panoz to your time in your street Viper? If so you are driving like you are related to our late friend PMUM. The Vipers that are track prepared are defiantly faster. The power dose not compare. The trick is to get the Viper to stick in the corners and then slow down at the end of the straight. This can all be done for a price. As stated above the cost to do this is large. Definitely fun! My version of a track car is for wheel to wheel racing. VRL , SCCA, etc. The biggest concern is to have a car that is safe!
Dan
 
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Doc.

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Wow,
I thank everyone for their input. Chuck does bring up a very good point. Therefore, let me spell out my goals a little more clearly. One on my life long goals is to get a vintage race car and travel around the country visiting all of the historic tracks when I retire. I'm 43 now and I was on track (no pun intended) to retire in 5 more years. I then got this idea that I should be doing some track driving now so that I would be both safe and competitive when the time comes to get my vintage racer. I took my Viper to Bobby Archer to have a few things done for my first track event and he agreed that I should be driving some right now. Here is where the plot thickens. I go to Motorsport Ranch and I'm blown away by the good time I had.
I was even drooling over racing shoes, like Imelda Marcos buying a new pair of pumps. I have no idea what kind of driver I may be since this was my first event. I'm sure that even a stock Viper is more car than I can handle at this time. My concern with getting a full on race car is that I don't know how competitive I would be. I know that I could save a lot of money buying a used VRL car (as opposed to building one). But, I can't compete with the guys that have been racing for years. I was thinking about the Challenge Series and doing some mods to a car (either my GTS or buying a car for the track). That way I could race in either Super stock or prepared and hopefully be more competitive.
Also, if I spend 70,000 on a new car and 50,000+ a year to race it I will have to put my retirement off a couple of years. This is not a huge problem as I'm still a young man but that does play into things a little. Now, does any of this useless information sway you one way or the other. I have a call in to the Oracle but she has not returned my call.
Sleepless in Louisiana.
Doc
 

joe117

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Here's my .02,

Buy a used, prepared, race car.
As someone pointed out above, you will not feel comfortable racing a street legal Viper.
A cage, racing seats and restraints?
The car can't be really good for both things at the same time.

A race car gets beat up. I don't mean wrecked, I just mean that the pressure of racing is going to take a toll on the cosmetics. And yes, you just might bump something a little now and then.

A race car is much easier to work on. Street driven cars seem to have a layer of stuff that needs to be removed before access to things.
A race car can be as bare bones as need be. Everything becomes easier to get at.

One more thing to think about.
Do you really want to learn how to race in a Viper? There are a lot more things to learn all at one time in a Viper compared to say, a Miata.
I'm not a pilot but learning to race in a Viper might be a little like learning to fly in a P-51 Mustang.
 

FrankBarba

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Dan
Maybe i miss understood your point? Doc came on here asking if he should by a dedicated track car. Your reply was you were basically in the same delima. You decided to purchase a track dedicated car and not tear into your viper. Were you promoting the PANOZ? You only state "I wound up buying a Panoz GTS Race car. I run about 10 Sceonds faster (average)than my near stock Viper" Now here is where I Must have mis understood what you were saying because i thought to make a comparison you must COMPARE APPLES TO APPLES.

Nowhere in your post did you tell us what your "Near Stock Viper" was? Now we find out that your "Near STock Viper" is a 1999 "NON" ACR on STREET TIRES & your PANOZ is on HOOSIERS.

If you are running average of 10 seconds faster in your PANOZ then your driving style is different in each car. Which is definately not a fair comparison.

Thanks for the Complement, I am comparing my Viper to the PANOZ. I am set up to run either the Challange Series or GT-2 VRL, according to the Viper Days Web Site. My Viper is faster than the PANOZ GTS by average of 2 seconds.
 

Sonny 00 GTS ACR

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I don't know of anyone on this board that drives/races Vipers for a living. We all do it for fun - as a hobby. Especially for that reason, safety should be the primary concern. When Skip Thomas talks to drivers in the challenge series, he often points out that many of them are posting faster lap times than some of the drivers in the race group, but most likely don't have any of the safety equipment required to race in the VRL. Buying a dedicated track car with a good cage, fire suppression system, and maybe even a fuel cell, will at least give you more confidence to improve your driving ability by knowing that you have taken the necessary steps to be safe. A good race seat and a 5 or 6 point harness help anchor you in a position where you can get more useful feedback from the car as well as reduce your own fatigue.

This doesn't mean that you have to jump right into the race group. I drove for a full season in the Michelin Challenge Series before deciding I was ready for the wheel to wheel experience. Learning to gradually improve and lower your lap times is essential to becoming a better driver and the Challenge Series time trials are a proven method to acquire the necessary skills. As a beginner, consistent dedication to your own improvement along with getting the seat time in a car that won't hold you back can yield some remarkable results. As long as you follow a plan such as "a - b - c - d etc.," and don't try to skip steps by ignoring the process, you will be amazed at the progress you can make.

I attended 2 three day Panoz racing schools and participated in their racing series during the time that I was learning to drive the Viper. I was impressed with the school and appreciated the fact that the cars they used were purpose built race cars and had all of the safety equipment that I believed made sense. They hold schools at Sebring, Mosport, Road Atlanta and Texas Motor Speedway. All great tracks. The Panoz doesn't have the horsepower or torque that the Viper posesses, and because of that fact, it is a little easier to learn the importance of momentum to being fast. If you scrub off speed through a turn and then get on the gas in a Viper, it can still seem to be fast, but in aything less, you immediately realize the price you paid in the sluggish response to regaining that speed that you lost. It is every bit as important in driving the Viper fast, but just harder to recognize. Don't get into the useless excersise of comparing the two cars. They are different, but they can both teach you many things that will help you become a better driver.

There are many reasons why a properly prepared track vehicle is safer and superior to a street car. You don't need to be intimidated by it, just strap it on, be comfortable and learn from it. Good Luck!

PS. I drank the purple koolaid in the fall of 1999 when at 46 years old, and took a ride on a whim in a Skip Barber street viper at Limerock. As a passenger, I was completely amazed. I bought a 2000 ACR and started looking for track time. I attended the Panoz schools and met some of the regulars from Viperdays where I found out John Cooper's Viper was for sale. I purchased it and attended my first Viperdays at Mid-Ohio in April of 2001 and have been hooked ever since. I'm 50 years old now, in better shape, and feel much younger than I did before I caught this disease.
 

Tomcat

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Ok, stop making me think!!! I am sure that a track car, and not a Viper, would be less expensive and safer to take to the track and race or do lapping days. I guess for me as someone else has said, learning and making changes to my GTS (this Winter is more safety equipment) is a big part of the fun. Time to take off the shocks and see about the damping. Luckely I don't go fast enough at Viper Days that I have hit anything solid YET!

Sonny, time to sell you car and get a Comp Coup.

tw
 

jrkermode

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amantoby,

If your dream is a vintage racecar, you should go buy one now and leave the Viper in street trim. You are not saving any time or money by running the Viper.
 

BJ MOTORS

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I agree with Sonny on all of the issues he has brought to your attention. I also got the bug and for a full season chased Sonny around every track in the country. Beware the bug bites even harder as you get more and more involved. Once you start the pit is endless.
Buy one of the track cars that is available for sale. You will be buying a car that lots of time, money and energy have already gone into.I can't express how much I miss being on the track. I had more fun with the Thomas Family and everyone involved with Viper Days. I will hopefully be back hopefully sooner than later.
As you go faster there is more room for error. Please what ever you do listen to Frank and Sonny safety is the most important thing you could ever do. Good Luck in your venture racing you will really enjoy your new family of friends.
 

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