Craig 201 MPH
Enthusiast
http://www.autoblog.com/entry/2238136368279903/
Can anyone confirm? Deny?
Maybe we need another mamba edition or two...
Can anyone confirm? Deny?
Maybe we need another mamba edition or two...
so if the SRT-10 is a better car...
- Thread starter Craig 201 MPH
- Start date
Makara
Viper Owner
It lost it's looks.
Craig 201 MPH
Enthusiast
yeah but it has red brake calipers and a standard trunk dress up kit!!!!
SnakeEye
Viper Owner
Really...
Makara
Viper Owner
Really...
yes
The way it looks is subjective. Everyone has their own opinion and all that really matters is what you think ...
I agree that the GTS looks better, the SRT is a better car though and I think the SRT looks great. Especially in black ...
I believe the real reason the SRT is not selling well, is due to the abundance of performance vehicles that are available today. Lot's of competition for the Viper. It is not pulling as many of the previous generation Viper owners as I think they had hoped. Older Vipers are now cheaper and a better buy for potential Viper buyers. There is a coupe coming. A reported 500hp Z06 that will be just as fast but much more civil. Mercedes has a bunch of 500hp cars. BMW has a 500hp sedan coming soon. At 84k you can get a pretty nice used Porsche TT. Gas mileage is also miserable and in this time of high gas prices that is enough to cause someone to hold off.
Oh Yes, one more thing ... EVERYTHING IS SITTING RIGHT NOW!!!! There is NOTHING flying out of dealers showrooms. The whole car industry is slow ...
I agree that the GTS looks better, the SRT is a better car though and I think the SRT looks great. Especially in black ...
I believe the real reason the SRT is not selling well, is due to the abundance of performance vehicles that are available today. Lot's of competition for the Viper. It is not pulling as many of the previous generation Viper owners as I think they had hoped. Older Vipers are now cheaper and a better buy for potential Viper buyers. There is a coupe coming. A reported 500hp Z06 that will be just as fast but much more civil. Mercedes has a bunch of 500hp cars. BMW has a 500hp sedan coming soon. At 84k you can get a pretty nice used Porsche TT. Gas mileage is also miserable and in this time of high gas prices that is enough to cause someone to hold off.
Oh Yes, one more thing ... EVERYTHING IS SITTING RIGHT NOW!!!! There is NOTHING flying out of dealers showrooms. The whole car industry is slow ...
Craig 201 MPH
Enthusiast
they are too busy drifting and racing in nascar to make a worthwile car.
Y2K5SRT
Enthusiast
It doesn't have anything to do with the looks, IMHO. What it does have everything to do with is distribution and execution. Let's look at both a little more objectively than beating the "NASCAR" and "lost the looks" drum:
DISTRIBUTION
First off, they are simply building too many. In 2002, the last year you could possibly buy a "classic" Viper design (RT/10 or GTS), DC built all of 1463 cars total. That is only 545 RT/10's and 918 GTS/ACR's - including the 360 Final Editions. For all the looks of those cars, they weren't huge sellers in total volume. Also note that the vast majority went to actual Viper dealers and were preordered. In other words, they sold most of them before they left the factory. Thus the number of supply days was minimal.
Now in 2004, they built 2435 Vipers and every single last one of them was the same bodystyle: The SRT-10. Only in 1994 did Viper production exceed that number, and that was largely because the car was in great demand and only 1300 were built in the first two years combined. And how were those 2435 Vipers distributed in 2004? No preorders necessary, they were sold to any Dodge dealer willing to put one on the lot. And no reason to preorder them as a consumer, they only came in three flavors. With so many dealers able to get one for the very first time, they jumped all over it. Result? They are sitting with a car on their lot that exceeds the income of 99.9999% of their residents. They either don't sell (thus your excessive supply days), or the dealer panics and dumps the car on eBay or elsewhere. That results in a glut of "underpriced" cars that further screws up the market. Many forego a reputable Viper dealer so they can buy it wholesale from JoeBobHenryJoe's Spiffy Car Lot. The result is that even MORE cars are sitting on the lots unsold.
The bottom line on distribution is that by building them in excess without the extensive preorders, you were already dooming yourself. Throw in the fact that they were available to pretty much any dealer, and your fate was sealed. Do you think the perceived value of a Rolex would drop a bit if they were produced in bigger numbers and sold through Walmart? Extreme analogy, but you get the basic idea.
EXECUTION
Besides our regular detractors on the looks department, I get a LOT of people that say they like the looks of the SRT-10 more than previous models - even though I don't (as compared to the GTS). It is indeed more mainstream looking (less exciting) and just a hair more civilized. Designed (GASP!!) more for the Corvette crowd than the original Viper crowd. And why not? The idea was obviously to sell more of them than previous models, thus the misconceived idea of mass production combined with mass distribution.
The problem is that you have now placed the Viper in a precarious position: It is far more expensive than the Corvette and the upcoming Z06. It is much less exclusive (and less exciting) than the "new" Ford GT. You basically have two things at work: Power-to-dollar ratio (Vette wins) and dollar to exclusivity ratio (Ford GT, Murcielago, and many others win). You simply can't "mass produce" a totally impractical car that stickers closed to $100,000. You can argue that the AMG products are more practical in that they can be driven by anybody in any weather (as can the Vette) and often seat four people. The Viper, even in the more civilized SRT-10 version, can't. Hell, just about every other sports or exotic car made is easier to drive than the Viper. That is it's attraction for few and that is it's curse for most. Forget mass production.
Let's not forget that you are building the EXACT same car over and over and over and over....... There is no Coupe variation and dammit, there is no real color variation. Sure, they made 200 White Mambas and you can't find a new one for sale. Why? It was a limited, one-year color. Did they announce white as a production color when they quickly sold out? Nope! But what about those suckers that plopped down some big bucks for the "exclusive" yellow VCA Editions? Surprise! They announce "Viper Yellow" for the exact same year of production. Not smart. Even white would have been better for 2005, because those 2004 White Mambas are still totally unique to that year.
Besides red, can you name the color that was produced for three years straight on the Gen II? NONE. Let's go down the list of colors and the number of years they were produced in a row. Hell, let's add the total number of cars produced during that time as well:
Gen I
Emerald Green - 2 years, 440 built
Bright yellow (Gen I) - 2 years, 381 built
White - 1 year, 324 built (1996 - technically Gen 1.5)
Black - 4 years, 1547 built (includes 1996, as the GTS was not available in black that year)
Red - 5 years, 4026 built (also includes 1996 as red was not a GTS option then)
Gen II
Sapphire Blue - 1 year, 545 built
White (GT2) - 1 year, 100 built
Graphite - 1 year, 406 built
Steel Gray - 1 year, 673 built
Silver - 2 years, 415 built in 1998 (build numbers not available for 1999)
Black - 2 years, 605 built in 2000 (build numbers not available for 1999)
Yellow - 2 years, 1074 built
Blue - 2 years, 2181 built
Red (1997-2002) - 6 years, 3163 built (not including 1999 as no numbers were available for that year)
Gen III
Black - 3 years and counting, 1308 built (not including 2005)
Red - 3 years and counting, 1882 built (not including 2005)
Silver - 3 years and supposedly done, 906 built (not including 2005)
White - 1 year, 200 built
Yellow - ???, ???
Whew!! The point? It is that by the time you add in interior options and stripe options for the Gen II's, pretty much every "variation" is more rare than the SRT-10's - in just two years of production. Even the black Gen I RT/10's that were produced for four years straight are outnumbered by the black SRT-10's - in half the time. The bottom line is that not only is DC attempting to mass produce an exotic car, but they have "watered down" the entire concept of rarity by leaving no factory options available and sticking with all of the same colors. "Mamba Editions"? Great idea if the exterior color is unique for that year, like the white. But announce exactly 200 of a custom interior on a car that is otherwise the same as 3000 others, and the "rarity" isn't all that special - especially when the numbers are announced in advance. Hell, I love my VCA SRT-10 but I shudder to think when DC starts churning out 2005 SRT-10's in yellow by the boatload. Gee, thanks a lot DC.
Don't get me wrong, I LOVE my SRT-10. But mass producing it with little or no variation takes away the "exotic" appeal of the Viper, especially when yahoo dealers are throwing them on eBay because they can't carry the note.
Gee, I guess I should have summarized that in the beginning rather than here at the end of this long-winded rant...
DISTRIBUTION
First off, they are simply building too many. In 2002, the last year you could possibly buy a "classic" Viper design (RT/10 or GTS), DC built all of 1463 cars total. That is only 545 RT/10's and 918 GTS/ACR's - including the 360 Final Editions. For all the looks of those cars, they weren't huge sellers in total volume. Also note that the vast majority went to actual Viper dealers and were preordered. In other words, they sold most of them before they left the factory. Thus the number of supply days was minimal.
Now in 2004, they built 2435 Vipers and every single last one of them was the same bodystyle: The SRT-10. Only in 1994 did Viper production exceed that number, and that was largely because the car was in great demand and only 1300 were built in the first two years combined. And how were those 2435 Vipers distributed in 2004? No preorders necessary, they were sold to any Dodge dealer willing to put one on the lot. And no reason to preorder them as a consumer, they only came in three flavors. With so many dealers able to get one for the very first time, they jumped all over it. Result? They are sitting with a car on their lot that exceeds the income of 99.9999% of their residents. They either don't sell (thus your excessive supply days), or the dealer panics and dumps the car on eBay or elsewhere. That results in a glut of "underpriced" cars that further screws up the market. Many forego a reputable Viper dealer so they can buy it wholesale from JoeBobHenryJoe's Spiffy Car Lot. The result is that even MORE cars are sitting on the lots unsold.
The bottom line on distribution is that by building them in excess without the extensive preorders, you were already dooming yourself. Throw in the fact that they were available to pretty much any dealer, and your fate was sealed. Do you think the perceived value of a Rolex would drop a bit if they were produced in bigger numbers and sold through Walmart? Extreme analogy, but you get the basic idea.
EXECUTION
Besides our regular detractors on the looks department, I get a LOT of people that say they like the looks of the SRT-10 more than previous models - even though I don't (as compared to the GTS). It is indeed more mainstream looking (less exciting) and just a hair more civilized. Designed (GASP!!) more for the Corvette crowd than the original Viper crowd. And why not? The idea was obviously to sell more of them than previous models, thus the misconceived idea of mass production combined with mass distribution.
The problem is that you have now placed the Viper in a precarious position: It is far more expensive than the Corvette and the upcoming Z06. It is much less exclusive (and less exciting) than the "new" Ford GT. You basically have two things at work: Power-to-dollar ratio (Vette wins) and dollar to exclusivity ratio (Ford GT, Murcielago, and many others win). You simply can't "mass produce" a totally impractical car that stickers closed to $100,000. You can argue that the AMG products are more practical in that they can be driven by anybody in any weather (as can the Vette) and often seat four people. The Viper, even in the more civilized SRT-10 version, can't. Hell, just about every other sports or exotic car made is easier to drive than the Viper. That is it's attraction for few and that is it's curse for most. Forget mass production.
Let's not forget that you are building the EXACT same car over and over and over and over....... There is no Coupe variation and dammit, there is no real color variation. Sure, they made 200 White Mambas and you can't find a new one for sale. Why? It was a limited, one-year color. Did they announce white as a production color when they quickly sold out? Nope! But what about those suckers that plopped down some big bucks for the "exclusive" yellow VCA Editions? Surprise! They announce "Viper Yellow" for the exact same year of production. Not smart. Even white would have been better for 2005, because those 2004 White Mambas are still totally unique to that year.
Besides red, can you name the color that was produced for three years straight on the Gen II? NONE. Let's go down the list of colors and the number of years they were produced in a row. Hell, let's add the total number of cars produced during that time as well:
Gen I
Emerald Green - 2 years, 440 built
Bright yellow (Gen I) - 2 years, 381 built
White - 1 year, 324 built (1996 - technically Gen 1.5)
Black - 4 years, 1547 built (includes 1996, as the GTS was not available in black that year)
Red - 5 years, 4026 built (also includes 1996 as red was not a GTS option then)
Gen II
Sapphire Blue - 1 year, 545 built
White (GT2) - 1 year, 100 built
Graphite - 1 year, 406 built
Steel Gray - 1 year, 673 built
Silver - 2 years, 415 built in 1998 (build numbers not available for 1999)
Black - 2 years, 605 built in 2000 (build numbers not available for 1999)
Yellow - 2 years, 1074 built
Blue - 2 years, 2181 built
Red (1997-2002) - 6 years, 3163 built (not including 1999 as no numbers were available for that year)
Gen III
Black - 3 years and counting, 1308 built (not including 2005)
Red - 3 years and counting, 1882 built (not including 2005)
Silver - 3 years and supposedly done, 906 built (not including 2005)
White - 1 year, 200 built
Yellow - ???, ???
Whew!! The point? It is that by the time you add in interior options and stripe options for the Gen II's, pretty much every "variation" is more rare than the SRT-10's - in just two years of production. Even the black Gen I RT/10's that were produced for four years straight are outnumbered by the black SRT-10's - in half the time. The bottom line is that not only is DC attempting to mass produce an exotic car, but they have "watered down" the entire concept of rarity by leaving no factory options available and sticking with all of the same colors. "Mamba Editions"? Great idea if the exterior color is unique for that year, like the white. But announce exactly 200 of a custom interior on a car that is otherwise the same as 3000 others, and the "rarity" isn't all that special - especially when the numbers are announced in advance. Hell, I love my VCA SRT-10 but I shudder to think when DC starts churning out 2005 SRT-10's in yellow by the boatload. Gee, thanks a lot DC.
Don't get me wrong, I LOVE my SRT-10. But mass producing it with little or no variation takes away the "exotic" appeal of the Viper, especially when yahoo dealers are throwing them on eBay because they can't carry the note.
Gee, I guess I should have summarized that in the beginning rather than here at the end of this long-winded rant...
Phil
Enthusiast
Oh well, no matter what happen, I'm always going to be a Viper supporter. I was one back in 1992, and it'll be the same for the future!! Viper rules!!!
Viperfreak2
Enthusiast
They made too many. Simple as that. If they had made 1500 in 2004, values would have stayed up and they could claim 'sold out'. At 2400+ per year? are they nuts? I'll bet all they dealers who whined and cried about not getting any 2003's during the certificate program ordered tons of cars and now they sit.
Craig 201 MPH
Enthusiast
Good post Chris.
It's gotta make you wonder just who the hell is running the Viper show and what kind of drugs they are on. It seems as tho the car gets ZERO consideration nowadays. Why they didn't build a coupe is beyond me. I hope at least someone got fired over that.
It's gotta make you wonder just who the hell is running the Viper show and what kind of drugs they are on. It seems as tho the car gets ZERO consideration nowadays. Why they didn't build a coupe is beyond me. I hope at least someone got fired over that.
VIPER D
Viper Owner
What is autoblog and why would I waste my time reading something that is a host for banner ads selling cars. Now if caranddriver or motortrend posted that, then its a different "story" keyword STORY.
vd..
vd..
viperrwk
Enthusiast
These numbers were reported in Automotive News this week.
900 units in inventory = 200 day supply based on previous month's sales rate. (Previous month was 160 day supply.)
From 1/1 to 11/15/03 there were 2206 Vipers produced.
From 1/1 to 11/13/04 there were 2299 Vipers produced.
By comparison, the hottest selling domestic cars right now:
Chrysler 300 - 34 days supply
Corvette - 32 days supply
Grand Am - 35 days supply
Average days supply of US cars as of Nov 1: 69
viperrwk
900 units in inventory = 200 day supply based on previous month's sales rate. (Previous month was 160 day supply.)
From 1/1 to 11/15/03 there were 2206 Vipers produced.
From 1/1 to 11/13/04 there were 2299 Vipers produced.
By comparison, the hottest selling domestic cars right now:
Chrysler 300 - 34 days supply
Corvette - 32 days supply
Grand Am - 35 days supply
Average days supply of US cars as of Nov 1: 69
viperrwk
ViperInBlack
Enthusiast
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Chris' outline of history and outcome is quite thorough.
I began considering the Viper when it was a concept car, and I have a FAX from 1992 wherein a northeast dealer offered me one of the first for a premium $95k. I came close to purchasing. Other things intruded for several years, but I always tracked the development and evolution of the Viper.
In 2001, I was within moments of purchasing an ACR but the dealership, rather notorious now in this community, was...er...noninspiring.
There is virtually an infinite palette of colors from which choices could have been made annually and then *retired.*
Using red as a standard and then limiting white (great looking car), yellow, silver, pewter, etc etc to 200 units and then moving onto another color. I know how I would feel if I owned the yellow VCA car and learned that this color was going to be generally available.
The design? Well, I was personally extremely disappointed when I saw the SRT-10 at the International Auto Show in 2002. I thought it looked like a Miata...an expensive Miata. I still prefer the GTS, but the SRT-10 is now, to me, very cool looking; the Dallas coupe? Not so much at this time although I have a right of first refusal on one with the hopes that they will improve this design.
I concur with Chris: any dealer, e-bay, and release of 2005 while 2004s still sit new, has softened the market (combine that with an economy that has changed greatly since the late 90s and drastically following 9/11.
My red Viper came from an e-bay initiated discussion with a dealer who does not, will not, sell a Viper and has no one in the dealership competent to work upon one. The price was truly astounding (for me; not for those wanting or needing to resell), and... I had very similar offers from 6 dealers who could not afford to have their 1-2 Vipers sitting endlessly in their showroom.
A soft market feeds itself. If you cannot get a Viper for less than $92k after paying all taxes and transport, etc., you see it as an expensive car, but that is no longer true. 2005s were listed at the onset from a NC dealer for less than $78k. 2004s on e-bay were not closing and bids were halting in the high 60s. Not good.
So that's the financial marketplace, but there is another factor.
Endorsement.
When celebs see a Viper as a must-have, its perceived value remains high. When these same high profile individuals nove toward Hummers, Chip Foos rods, and form a line for the GT-40, it leaves the Viper an abandoned child.
Limiting the numbers helps us, the end user. But there also needs to be perceived endorsers whether racers and/or celebs with infinite buying strength who chose the Viper over (or along with) other cars that they own.
We do not want the Viper as a Corvette upgrade. We want it as something unique unto itself.
A streetable concept coupe (my desire) could potentially spark the market.
A color retirement plan would seemingly be very easily implemented with minimal "tooling" costs.
As NOMERCY indicates (and he comes from a Z06 and owns a Turbo Porsche) the car has its own identity. We just need some specific help from the factory.
I began considering the Viper when it was a concept car, and I have a FAX from 1992 wherein a northeast dealer offered me one of the first for a premium $95k. I came close to purchasing. Other things intruded for several years, but I always tracked the development and evolution of the Viper.
In 2001, I was within moments of purchasing an ACR but the dealership, rather notorious now in this community, was...er...noninspiring.
There is virtually an infinite palette of colors from which choices could have been made annually and then *retired.*
Using red as a standard and then limiting white (great looking car), yellow, silver, pewter, etc etc to 200 units and then moving onto another color. I know how I would feel if I owned the yellow VCA car and learned that this color was going to be generally available.
The design? Well, I was personally extremely disappointed when I saw the SRT-10 at the International Auto Show in 2002. I thought it looked like a Miata...an expensive Miata. I still prefer the GTS, but the SRT-10 is now, to me, very cool looking; the Dallas coupe? Not so much at this time although I have a right of first refusal on one with the hopes that they will improve this design.
I concur with Chris: any dealer, e-bay, and release of 2005 while 2004s still sit new, has softened the market (combine that with an economy that has changed greatly since the late 90s and drastically following 9/11.
My red Viper came from an e-bay initiated discussion with a dealer who does not, will not, sell a Viper and has no one in the dealership competent to work upon one. The price was truly astounding (for me; not for those wanting or needing to resell), and... I had very similar offers from 6 dealers who could not afford to have their 1-2 Vipers sitting endlessly in their showroom.
A soft market feeds itself. If you cannot get a Viper for less than $92k after paying all taxes and transport, etc., you see it as an expensive car, but that is no longer true. 2005s were listed at the onset from a NC dealer for less than $78k. 2004s on e-bay were not closing and bids were halting in the high 60s. Not good.
So that's the financial marketplace, but there is another factor.
Endorsement.
When celebs see a Viper as a must-have, its perceived value remains high. When these same high profile individuals nove toward Hummers, Chip Foos rods, and form a line for the GT-40, it leaves the Viper an abandoned child.
Limiting the numbers helps us, the end user. But there also needs to be perceived endorsers whether racers and/or celebs with infinite buying strength who chose the Viper over (or along with) other cars that they own.
We do not want the Viper as a Corvette upgrade. We want it as something unique unto itself.
A streetable concept coupe (my desire) could potentially spark the market.
A color retirement plan would seemingly be very easily implemented with minimal "tooling" costs.
As NOMERCY indicates (and he comes from a Z06 and owns a Turbo Porsche) the car has its own identity. We just need some specific help from the factory.
Damn Chris!! I actually learned something from your post. I am also a bit depressed by it.
It does seem that Dodge has sold us out. The Viper, although still not common, has lost some of its Mojo due to over production ...
It does seem that Dodge has sold us out. The Viper, although still not common, has lost some of its Mojo due to over production ...
Y2K5SRT
Enthusiast
Damn Chris!! I actually learned something from your post. I am also a bit depressed by it.
Don't be, as you are one of the ones that will set your car instantly apart by horsepower alone. "Customizing" the car does ease the pain a little, trust me on that.
I also got to thinking about this a little more and realized what I have seen in our local club. It used to be that when you came to a meeting in the Gen II days you would have a wide variety of color combinations and styles. Virtually no two cars in the entire club were identical, but we were also a smaller club by half. When I bought my black/silver GTS there wasn't another one in town or in the club. Today you can expect that same variety of earlier Vipers, but you will see your SRT-10's twin (and more) show up at the meetings. Oh, they are still incredible cars and everybody has an awesome time, but I suspect that secretly a few folks feel a little deflated when another car shows up exactly like theirs, and another one after that, etc.
Amusing side note: Out of the 50 yellow VCA SRT-10's produced world-wide, FOUR of them were drawn in Kansas City...
NascarDave
Enthusiast
Bravo Chris! Individuality is what has made the Viper a "legend" in only 15 short years of production. Read these boards, Viper owners are a different breed and want their ride to reflect that.
I do feel bad for KC, and as such, I'm willing to accept one of those yellow-headed step children over here. Let me know where I should pick it up.
DN
I do feel bad for KC, and as such, I'm willing to accept one of those yellow-headed step children over here. Let me know where I should pick it up.
DN
The SRT-10 is a better car. I have one. Drive one. Rub on it and sit in it every single day. I can tell you it IS a better car. In fact, I think it is one of the finest cars ever made and is a tremendous bargain at $80k.
I hate the bashing of the SRT-10 by Gen I and GenII owners (and a 16 year old non-viper owner from Canada) Gen I and Gen II cars are fantastic cars as well. However, I wouldn't trade my SRT-10 for a Gen I or II and I would bet that most Gen I and Gen II owners would gladly trade for a Gen III if money was not an issue. (I said most, not all. There are clearly some outstanding heavily modded cars of every type.)
The opinion of some who think the SRT-10 doesn't look good doesn't affect me. Especially those who haven't driven one.
Dodge overestimated the success of the car. They assumed that they could make improvements, raise the price, and sell more of them without spending a dime to promote the product. They made too many because of that. With any type of ad campaign sales would jump. With the still relatively few numbers made, advertising does not make financial sense (short-term) for Dodge.
Does it make sense that the flagship performance car of the entire company is largely unrecognizable by the general public? How many TV spots have you seen showing the Ford GT? Dodge could have done something similar. They missed the boat by thinking that the Viper following was so large and informed that no advertising was necessary.
You can't look at the slow sales as a guage of the quality of the car. Not only is it the fault of Dodge marketing, high end car sales are down. Convertibles don't sell with winter coming on. The truth is that Gen I and II prices are also down. You can find Gen I and II bargains all over the place. They are not selling well either. The market for the SRT-10 is even smaller than the Gen I and II market because the higher price means fewer people can buy it.
The sales of the SRT-10 are affected by many, many things. They are NOT an indication that there is something wrong with the car itself.
Dirk
I hate the bashing of the SRT-10 by Gen I and GenII owners (and a 16 year old non-viper owner from Canada) Gen I and Gen II cars are fantastic cars as well. However, I wouldn't trade my SRT-10 for a Gen I or II and I would bet that most Gen I and Gen II owners would gladly trade for a Gen III if money was not an issue. (I said most, not all. There are clearly some outstanding heavily modded cars of every type.)
The opinion of some who think the SRT-10 doesn't look good doesn't affect me. Especially those who haven't driven one.
Dodge overestimated the success of the car. They assumed that they could make improvements, raise the price, and sell more of them without spending a dime to promote the product. They made too many because of that. With any type of ad campaign sales would jump. With the still relatively few numbers made, advertising does not make financial sense (short-term) for Dodge.
Does it make sense that the flagship performance car of the entire company is largely unrecognizable by the general public? How many TV spots have you seen showing the Ford GT? Dodge could have done something similar. They missed the boat by thinking that the Viper following was so large and informed that no advertising was necessary.
You can't look at the slow sales as a guage of the quality of the car. Not only is it the fault of Dodge marketing, high end car sales are down. Convertibles don't sell with winter coming on. The truth is that Gen I and II prices are also down. You can find Gen I and II bargains all over the place. They are not selling well either. The market for the SRT-10 is even smaller than the Gen I and II market because the higher price means fewer people can buy it.
The sales of the SRT-10 are affected by many, many things. They are NOT an indication that there is something wrong with the car itself.
Dirk
jrkermode
Enthusiast
"Better" is the problem.
Viper's stock in trade for many years was badazz, the Harley of the automotive world. Bettering it lost that raw appeal. Remember what happened when Harley tried bettering?
Viper's stock in trade for many years was badazz, the Harley of the automotive world. Bettering it lost that raw appeal. Remember what happened when Harley tried bettering?
SilverSnake
Viper Owner
jrkermode,
Harleys v-rod is the best thing they have ever done. It's just like a viper except is a harley. live with it!!
The srt-10 is a raw beast and still has a raw appeal. At least it has real brakes
Robert
Harleys v-rod is the best thing they have ever done. It's just like a viper except is a harley. live with it!!
The srt-10 is a raw beast and still has a raw appeal. At least it has real brakes
Robert
The Viper has lost none of it's raw appeal. More power, better handling, better braking....these are not reasons that cause people not to buy it. That is ridiculous.
I'll bet if they would just remove the airconditioning, the power steering and put in really uncomfortable seats then more people would be lined up to buy one, right?
It has nothing to do with the product.
By the way, when Harley started making a product that didn't leak and break their sales did not go down.
They made too many. They didn't do ANY PR work. The car is a convertible and winter is here.
"Better" is not a problem. That is silly. I agree that if they gave it an auto trans or something like that it would be getting away from the "Viperness", but the improvements made on the SRT-10 are improvements that are consistent with the image of the car. What improvement can you specifically point to that caused the car to lose its 'raw appeal'???
There is nothing wrong with the damned car. I loved the older Vipers, but many people would not buy a car that was unstable, uncomfortable, and unreliable. The new Viper is still raw, still 'badazz', performs and handles incredibly and can do all of this while staying on the road and stopping quicker than a runaway CSX locomotive. These aren't the types of improvements that scare away buyers.
Dirk
I'll bet if they would just remove the airconditioning, the power steering and put in really uncomfortable seats then more people would be lined up to buy one, right?
It has nothing to do with the product.
By the way, when Harley started making a product that didn't leak and break their sales did not go down.
They made too many. They didn't do ANY PR work. The car is a convertible and winter is here.
"Better" is not a problem. That is silly. I agree that if they gave it an auto trans or something like that it would be getting away from the "Viperness", but the improvements made on the SRT-10 are improvements that are consistent with the image of the car. What improvement can you specifically point to that caused the car to lose its 'raw appeal'???
There is nothing wrong with the damned car. I loved the older Vipers, but many people would not buy a car that was unstable, uncomfortable, and unreliable. The new Viper is still raw, still 'badazz', performs and handles incredibly and can do all of this while staying on the road and stopping quicker than a runaway CSX locomotive. These aren't the types of improvements that scare away buyers.
Dirk
Rapid Transit
Enthusiast
I don't have a Viper, but my friend just got an SRT and I went with him. So here's my opinion, a potential buyer. I'd be MUCH more inclined to get one if the car is also available as a coupe. Also, more colors available would be a huge plus. And I agree with what others have posted, more competition on the market.
Craig 201 MPH
Enthusiast
The first/second gen cars sold themselves, these 3rd gen cars have only sold with special editions in the form of ultra low production number runs or special interiors. Even at the close of production demand was dwindling down, if dodge had've been on the ball they would have built a car that inspired people to move up into the new gen car not feel abandoned for a more mainstream, less offensive car.
Is it a better performing car? Absolutely it just majorly lacks the appeal that the first 2 generation cars had.
I'm not really bashing the car as much as I am bashing the company behind the car. Dodge should have listened to what the people had to say before they OK'd it for final production. I don't recall anyone here going nuts over the car. The only people that seem to love it from day one ore vette people who finally got some $$$
If this continues we aren't going to see a 4th gen car.
Why there was no coupe to begin with is beyond me.
Couldn't have anything to do with the lousy reliability (and DC's stingy Warranty decisions)? I am basing this on my experience and problems reported on this board. I wonder just what percentage of SRT-10s have had major problems within the first 12 months of ownership?
Janni
Enthusiast
I have to respectfully disagree. Yes, the car is a world class performer. Phenomenal handling, and braking. Equal acceleration - although it feels a little slower IMO probably due to better handling (less scary) and effectively taller gearing. BUT... I've had to keep telling myself that in order to "make up for" the styling.
The new car appeals to a broader market - no doubt. I am not sure that translates into bigger sales - because you've increased the competition. New Viper buyers have probably looked at other cars - Porsche, Vette, etc. Gen I / Gen II buyers never considered any other car. So, you may see increased sales, but you may see more transient owners and less "rabid" Viper crazy / loyal owners.
As far as the older cars being unstable or unreliable - are you nuts? have you noticed the number of recalls and issues with the Gen III car? We drove both our 1996 GTSs HARD and they NEVER failed us. Most folks will tell you that their cars or buying a used car is that the car is simple and reliable. Unstable? Maybe "Fun" is the word I would use. It takes a DRIVER to enjoy the car. I have found myself thinking that I'd like more creature comforts in my 2003 - because it's so e-a-s-y to drive. And after driving a 1998 back from VIR after putting 5K miles on my SRT - the GTS fit me like a glove. Visibility was better, and I liked the seats better, strangely enough.
The SRT is like a pretty Rhodes Scholar at the Miss Universe Pagent. The total package may be more valuable, but she's not going to be wearing the crown with the judges.
Make the coupe a RAW, twitchy, un-daily driver that makes you feel like you are driving a race car. Make the styling scare old ladies
and stop traffic. Make little kids stop and point. DON'T make the car appeal to the folks that have a Mercedes 500SL - they are NOT in the target market and then you'll find yourself competing ewith cars with more creature comforts. eeewww.....Bring back the soul of the beast - give it the looks and the "feel" of driving a race car. The GTS-R concept has the look, the Comp Coupe has it - and I am not sure the concept coupe does. The car should be polarizing and passionate.... NOT Miss Congeniality.
Hello everyone!
I totally agree with Dirk and parts of others.
What I believe:
First off I am a retired new car auto dealer of 22 years so I feel I know a little something about the car business.
I believe that my SRT is one of the HOTTEST sports cars I have ever seen in every way.
I also think that it is a bargin at its current MSRP 500/500/500.
What the problems are in a nut shell is (too many produced for the market place and current economic climate, no options and poor to no advertising) DC went a different way on the Viper than Ford did on the GT and they are paying for it now. The idea behind building a limited production SUPER car is to use it as a leader/a banner to promote your Dodge division and saddly DC forgot that! In that one way they could learn something from Ford.
I believe that DC does alot right too (VCA, Best design team in the business, Building concept cars for us to drive and Keeping prices relatively low)
I like ALL Vipers in there own way but I would only own an SRT but that is me.
Another thing why all the talk of a coupe and that DC better up the hp? Have we become so jaded that 500hp isn't enough for a production car? Plus you guy think the price is too high now where do you think the price is gonna go with more hp in the coupe, down? The usablity of the SRT convertiable makes a coupe unnessacary. This R&D money can be better spent at DC. Do you realize how much it cost for retooling? Why do you think our radio and controls for the Viper are off the Ram line.
Let me make one more ringing endoresment of my SRT, if you go to Musclecars.com and look at the HISTORY of the 50 fastest muscle cars of all time not one has more horsepower or better 0-60 and 1/4 mile times than the Viper stock from the factory!!!! How many other American production car in history prior to 2003 have 500hp from the factory.
I THINK WE HAVE ALL JUST BECOME SPOILED AND LOST TRACK OF WHAT A GREAT CAR THE VIPER IS.
In closing advertising, limiting production and options will go along way to fix thing and everybody else just relax!
A VERY PROUD VIPER OWNER,
MAC <font color="red"> </font> <font color="red"> </font>
I totally agree with Dirk and parts of others.
What I believe:
First off I am a retired new car auto dealer of 22 years so I feel I know a little something about the car business.
I believe that my SRT is one of the HOTTEST sports cars I have ever seen in every way.
I also think that it is a bargin at its current MSRP 500/500/500.
What the problems are in a nut shell is (too many produced for the market place and current economic climate, no options and poor to no advertising) DC went a different way on the Viper than Ford did on the GT and they are paying for it now. The idea behind building a limited production SUPER car is to use it as a leader/a banner to promote your Dodge division and saddly DC forgot that! In that one way they could learn something from Ford.
I believe that DC does alot right too (VCA, Best design team in the business, Building concept cars for us to drive and Keeping prices relatively low)
I like ALL Vipers in there own way but I would only own an SRT but that is me.
Another thing why all the talk of a coupe and that DC better up the hp? Have we become so jaded that 500hp isn't enough for a production car? Plus you guy think the price is too high now where do you think the price is gonna go with more hp in the coupe, down? The usablity of the SRT convertiable makes a coupe unnessacary. This R&D money can be better spent at DC. Do you realize how much it cost for retooling? Why do you think our radio and controls for the Viper are off the Ram line.
Let me make one more ringing endoresment of my SRT, if you go to Musclecars.com and look at the HISTORY of the 50 fastest muscle cars of all time not one has more horsepower or better 0-60 and 1/4 mile times than the Viper stock from the factory!!!! How many other American production car in history prior to 2003 have 500hp from the factory.
I THINK WE HAVE ALL JUST BECOME SPOILED AND LOST TRACK OF WHAT A GREAT CAR THE VIPER IS.
In closing advertising, limiting production and options will go along way to fix thing and everybody else just relax!
A VERY PROUD VIPER OWNER,
MAC <font color="red"> </font> <font color="red"> </font>
