SRT: Please Pay Attention

[ringram]

A C7 Z06 with a Cam, Headers and an EFILive tune will cause a lot of tears for SRT. Hell maybe even the base C7 will frighten them.
Fun times. Apparently the first C7'***** the floors in August.

NineBall: Im looking forward to your SRT 2013 road trip review. When are you posting it up

 

[TrackAire]

Wow, so this may be the first generation Viper to fail from a sales and marketing standpoint because it could not be modded......

So lets document this now so 10 years from today we can be watching one of those television car show documentaries or a broadcaster at a Barrett Jackson auction and the conversation describing the Gen 5 Viper goes like this:

"Yes, awesome looking car with great potential but failed to sell because Chrysler designed the car so it could not be modified.....what were the executives thinking?"

"Traditionally, a high percentage of Viper owners track, race and modify their cars and since this car was "neutered", Chrysler lost a lot Viper owners to other makes. Hopefully Tata Motors of India, the new owners of Chrysler understand this and bring back a Viper with performance as a top priority"

"The Gen 5 failed to sell not only in the USA, but also on a global market since many potential buyers didn't want to get embarrassed by a Mustang with a pulley and a tune at half the cost"

"Mopar has always sold performance parts for the high performance side of Chrysler, apparently they did not have the capability of supplying a performance computer for their flagship model so Gen 5 owners could modify the platform like previous generations"

"Can you imagine how much more these cars would sell for at the auction if they could be modified so the full potential and the desirability factor of the Gen 5 could be realized?"

"Amazingly even though the car set track records in its stock form, Chrysler failed to realize that Viper owners like to modify their cars regardless of the stock performance. This cost sales and ultimately they Viper is now a fond memory of what could have been"

"Even though once considered the performance icon that forced Corvette and others to step up their game so they could compete with the Viper, the Gen 5 is still very popular on the show car circuit"

I do not understand why Chrysler does not offer their own aftermarket computer than can be tuneable for the Gen4/5....hell, I paid over $1200.00 for a Mopar computer to get rid of skip shift and raise my rpm a tad. This thread and situation needs to be forwarded Jalopnik so maybe potential investors in Chrysler will realize the bigger picture when this embarrassment is played out on a worldwide discussion.

I have needs and I have wants.....you supply either one of those to me and you get my money. And if Chrysler doesn't, others will. Simple.

George

 

[SRT09]

What access does the ACR-X PCM allow the user to have in tunning? Is there a possiblity of them releasing those PCMs?

 

[MoparMap]

As much as I hate to say it, a comparison just crossed my mind for the Viper and Apple products, of which I am typically not the largest fan. TrackAire brings up a good point in that the stock Viper is one hell of a car that bests many of the premium cars out there. However, since the modding potential of the Viper is limited, it means that the performance you buy on day 1 is largely all you're going to get. In my opinion Apple is similar. They release a new version of everything they make practically twice a year. Why would you buy an iPhone X when the X+1 has already been announced? To upgrade your device you pretty much just have to buy a new one. The Viper seems somewhat similar. What you get out of the box is awesome, but in a few years when other cars have caught up and you want to beat them again you have to get a new model (maybe something like an ACR will come along). However, for those of us with less money to throw around that concept is difficult. I'd rather put extra money into what I already have than sell it and buy a new one. I love my stock (for now) gen 3, even if it seems like all the other Vipers I see are either gen 4's or supercharged gen 3's. I can slowly build up the performance of my car a little money and a few parts at a time. Sure a gen 4 out of the box may beat a modded gen 3, but I don't have the money to step up to a gen 4 in one shot and would rather wrench on my car myself for something fun to do.

 

[Coloviper]

I believe Chrysler farmed out all the new ECU programming to a 3rd party, so you can expect the trend to continue as that 3rd party protects it's intellectual property. Then again why is it a benefit to open up your complete control system to the user on a warrantied, as-performed sold product? As a manufacturer, there is zero benefit as it creates other problems for you in the long run. It is not just HP performance to consider but emissions and fuel mileage as well. Why change the fuel mileage standards to this new set of federal regulations where the fuel mileage as now reported, has no resemblance to reality on the street anyway, if they are not holding the manufacturers to keep that performance for a longer period of time for compliance? It is about government being the top dog and in control unfortunately.

I believe once Ford and GM move to completely new ECU platforms and coding language in the future (amybe with ODB III), you will see those programs locked down as well. Despite the arguments that FORD and GM are leaving theirs open, the real answer is why aren't they closing them. I believe it has absolutely nothing to do with modability and everything to do with the fact they don't want to spend the money to close them right now. Diminishing returns at the moment in spending that money because ODB III will be a completely new re-write. If they had the money to spend or the situation arose to move from their millions of invested coding dollars as it stands today, they would shut it faster than you could clap your hands.

We can enjoy while we can with certain models because in the future, everything will be locked down, period. Modding is a fractional percentage of all owners, of all brands. While it is fun to hop them up, the percentage of total owners who seriously mod is just a very small fractional percentage for the entire build total, even though on an enthusiasts site, it appears everyone is doing it. When ODBIII comes out (and it will) and requires everything to be reported real-time to the Feds, then you can guarantee it will all be locked down and that is all coming. Driving is a privalege, not a right so we will lose that war when it comes. Sorry SEMA!

It is funny as while the oil crisis created the recent 60s muscle car boom and craze, the FED regulations and technology mandates may actually create the next wave of sports car collecting crazes being pre-ODBIII or possibilty even pre-ODBII craze which would be all cars pre-1996 for ODBI. My recent emissions test for this 1996 Viper RT/10 we picked up, was the frist time out of any vehilces we have including the GEN III Viper we had where the State checked the wiring and counted the number of O2 sensors the car had on it as well as the number of and part numbers for the actual catalytic converters. This GEN 1.5 RT/10 just has a Borla cat back with factory exhaust manifolds and factory cats and O2 sensors so it passed as clean as a whistle, however the guys at the station indicated that even if it would have passed clean as a whistle, it would have failed if I did not have the proper number of O2 sensors wired up and installed in exhaust as well as if I did not have the proper number of cats and factory type cats. Every year, it has been marked worse interms of what they check, etc. in this county which will be coming to a county near you in the future.

The only hope is that the cars age and so does factory support and replacement parts. After 25-30 years, there is just no way they can continue to push insane performance compliance figures for cars in service on owners beyond a bare minimum which is where collector plates and vehicle statuses take over. Test once to get into collector status and then do not test again for the life you own the vehicle in that state and county as long as it is registered, at least in Colorado. This may drive up the collectibility of late 80s and early 90s sports cars which are pre-ODBII. Time will tell! Colorado changed the collector plates from 25 years old to 30 years old right at the cusp of when ODB I cars would be able for collector status which had all of the guys in the early 80s ODBI cars upset in arms because they had to maintain a two year full emissions test for another 5 or 6 years.

I am not a big brother fearful kind of guy but you might be very suprised what drives the next collector car craze.

 

[TowDawg]

Have to disagree Colo. While the newer systems may be more locked down, there will always be someone out there who can break it. As others have said, it's a matter of cost vs potential income. There are A LOT of Mustangs and Corvettes out there (not to mention other vehicles that each might share components with), so it's worth the hackers time to find a way to break the code. I'm a little shocked nobody has broken the one for all of the SRT8's yet though. If the Viper and SRT8's use a similar system, I think there is still hope, but if the Viper system is completely unique and this hard to crack, I just don't see anyone investing the time break it with it being such a low volume car.

 

[HANKFAN]

Has anyone ever simply asked Ralph directly about whether or not we will see a forced induction kit available for the Gen V or at least the tuning information released so that the aftermarket can provide one? He seems like a guy that would give you a straight up answer.

 

[mnc2886]

Has anyone ever simply asked Ralph directly about whether or not we will see a forced induction kit available for the Gen V or at least the tuning information released so that the aftermarket can provide one? He seems like a guy that would give you a straight up answer.

Give a straight up answer on this subject? Not a chance.

You'll get "It's something we're looking into." Ralph seems like a stand-up guy, but he is a CEO and he won't say anything that isn't public information.

 

[MoparMap]

He really probably can't give a direct answer, it is a business after all. If he said a supercharged version was coming out eventually, it may hurt sales in the meantime while people wait for it instead of buying one now. Also, you figure he doesn't want to give away anything to the competition.

 

[Bobpantax]

There will never be a supercharged OEM V10 in a Viper from SRT. The speculation suggesting that there will be one is mental ************.

 

[mnc2886]

There will never be a supercharged OEM V10 in a Viper from SRT. The speculation suggesting that there will be one is mental ************.

HaHa, that is clever!! I'm going to steal that line....

 

[viperbilliam]

Yeah but mental ************ is fun; that's what makes the internet so popular!

 

[Bruce H.]

There will never be a supercharged OEM V10 in a Viper from SRT. The speculation suggesting that there will be one is mental ************.

Now repeat after me...never say never!

Maybe they'll cash in on the demand/interest in more power and offer it from the factory...and avoid having to unlock the PCM for everyone at the same time. Not sure that many Corvette fans objected to the big power bump that supercharging gave the ZR1, or Jaguar fans when they bolted the same one onto the XKR, XFR, XJ SC, then XKR-S, XFR-S, XJ-SS, and now F-Type V8S, and I guess Cadillac and Chevy use them on various other models as well. And then there`s all the other high end performance brands using SC and turbos. If SRT could scramble to offer the TA, I can`t see them missing the opportunity to add more power in whatever way make the car more desirable and profitable.

 

[Steve M]

Now repeat after me...never say never!

Maybe they'll cash in on the demand/interest in more power and offer it from the factory...and avoid having to unlock the PCM for everyone at the same time. Not sure that many Corvette fans objected to the big power bump that supercharging gave the ZR1, or Jaguar fans when they bolted the same one onto the XKR, XFR, XJ SC, then XKR-S, XFR-S, XJ-SS, and now F-Type V8S, and I guess Cadillac and Chevy use them on various other models as well. And then there`s all the other high end performance brands using SC and turbos. If SRT could scramble to offer the TA, I can`t see them missing the opportunity to add more power in whatever way make the car more desirable and profitable.

You are missing the point entirely...adding more HP from the factory while keeping the PCM locked/encrypted isn't going to scratch the itch that people are complaining about in this thread. It is the fact that you can't easily add more power (we're talking a supercharger or turbo(s) here, not just bolt-ons like headers) because you can't cheaply alter the engine management system. Adding $10k-$20k for an aftermarket piggyback ECU to have this functionality just *****...a good tune using the existing architecture should only cost you $500-$600, just like it would if you were driving a ZR1 Corvette. Yes, the ZR1 had a substantial power increase from the factory with the addition of a blower, but you can easily increase the output of even that top-of-the-line offering with a simple pulley swap and a tune because the tune costs so little.

This isn't an argument that the Viper should have more power from the factory...we are at the point of diminishing returns due to emissions and sound restrictions. This is an argument that we should be able to modify our cars to whatever level we deem necessary and not be hampered by a PCM that has been impossible to alter without going to a different engine management system altogether.

 

[Jack B]

Let's turn this around, there are approx 25,000 vipers. How many SCT programmers do you think have been sold. They can tune Gen II and Gen III cars. I would bet it is a couple hundred at best.

You are missing the point entirely...adding more HP from the factory while keeping the PCM locked/encrypted isn't going to scratch the itch that people are complaining about in this thread. It is the fact that you can't easily add more power (we're talking a supercharger or turbo(s) here, not just bolt-ons like headers) because you can't cheaply alter the engine management system. Adding $10k-$20k for an aftermarket piggyback ECU to have this functionality just *****...a good tune using the existing architecture should only cost you $500-$600, just like it would if you were driving a ZR1 Corvette. Yes, the ZR1 had a substantial power increase from the factory with the addition of a blower, but you can easily increase the output of even that top-of-the-line offering with a simple pulley swap and a tune because the tune costs so little.

This isn't an argument that the Viper should have more power from the factory...we are at the point of diminishing returns due to emissions and sound restrictions. This is an argument that we should be able to modify our cars to whatever level we deem necessary and not be hampered by a PCM that has been impossible to alter without going to a different engine management system altogether.

 

[AJ usmc]

It sounds like everybody is complaining about having to pay racing/performance prices for racing performance when they want to pay at ricer prices. everybody wants everything, without having to work and pay for it. yall can keep your vettes and fords when I'm rockin the viper. if I want to super charge it, I'm not going to use a $300 flash anyways. I'm going to put in a system that's meant to work with it instead of using a flash that cheats n tricks the computer and may cause the traction control to floor the engine as I enter a hairpin or put the engine in limp mode coming out and lose substantial power. it already has a lap record with someone who only drove it TWICE within a few months of production with an available aero pack from the factory, and sitting on non-shaved, rain friendly tires. (p-zero corsa's). what more do you want from it? I know if I'm going to do something, I'm going to do it the right way and carry it with pride.

 

[Steve M]

Let's turn this around, there are approx 25,000 vipers. How many SCT programmers do you think have been sold. They can tune Gen II and Gen III cars. I would bet it is a couple hundred at best.

What exactly is there to turn around here? What you stated is the basic reason why tuning doesn't exist for Gen IV (and now V) cars...there aren't enough of them to recoup the R&D costs associated with cracking the rolling encryption. Part of it is SRT's fault for making it so difficult to crack the rolling encryption...if that barrier didn't exist, companies might be a bit more willing to give it a go even though any potential profit margin will be limited by low volume.

What it would be is a nod to the hot-rodders out there...the guys that make up at least some of the Viper customer base that think OEM power numbers just aren't enough. Or would just like to fix the Gen IV's laggy throttle response without having to buy a $10k-$20k stand-alone or a $100k-$140k Gen V.

 

[TrackAire]

It sounds like everybody is complaining about having to pay racing/performance prices for racing performance when they want to pay at ricer prices. everybody wants everything, without having to work and pay for it. yall can keep your vettes and fords when I'm rockin the viper. if I want to super charge it, I'm not going to use a $300 flash anyways. I'm going to put in a system that's meant to work with it instead of using a flash that cheats n tricks the computer and may cause the traction control to floor the engine as I enter a hairpin or put the engine in limp mode coming out and lose substantial power. it already has a lap record with someone who only drove it TWICE within a few months of production with an available aero pack from the factory, and sitting on non-shaved, rain friendly tires. (p-zero corsa's). what more do you want from it? I know if I'm going to do something, I'm going to do it the right way and carry it with pride.

I want the same thing you fight for.....freedom. (I'm assuming you're still in the Marines)

Even at this price level, people buy the vehicle for many reasons. Some keep it stock, some want to modify. Not being able to modify a Gen 4/5 via computer upgrades hurts our resale value and diminishes the vehicles desirability. Not acceptable to me. I've chosen to spend my money with other manufacturers.

I've heard that the Gen 4 has been twin turbo'd using an expensive computer system such as a Motec. Well that may be the case, but did it really work?....was it drivable, did all the other systems interface completely? You'd think if some tuner actually had a fully functional model of this system on the road, there would be youtube videos, drag race videos, mile run videos, etc. Until I see proof, I'm claiming B.S. Can it be done, yes. Is it prudent to spend 30% of a vehicles value just on the computer and computer install (that does not include the turbos, motor upgrades, fuel system, installation, etc)? Not to me and apparently nobody else has a fully running Gen 4 twin turbo that is worthy of media exposure. Think about the lack of Gen 4 TT videos or dyno runs.....

It has nothing to do with how much hp or how fast the current Gen 5 is stock (which is an epic car in its stock form). It has to do with freedom and at this price level, I have lot of choices to choose from.

Cheers,
George

 

[speedracervr4]

I'm going to put in a system that's meant to work with it instead of using a flash that cheats n tricks the computer and may cause the traction control to floor the engine as I enter a hairpin or put the engine in limp mode coming out and lose substantial power. it already has a lap record with someone who only drove it TWICE within a few months of production with an available aero pack from the factory, and sitting on non-shaved, rain friendly tires. (p-zero corsa's). what more do you want from it? I know if I'm going to do something, I'm going to do it the right way and carry it with pride.

There is nothing wrong with a flash tune. All you're doing is changing the factory parameters, it's not cheating or tricking the computer. Flash tunes are used on a lot of different platforms and they work flawlessly with OEM driveability.

 

[Jack B]

My point cannot be argued - the viper community has/had a great tool for tuning, however, very few have used it. For those that have not used the SCT programmer is can control virtually all aspects of the pcm that are critical to tuning. You are so concerned about a locked pcm, however, when a tuning tool was available, few used it.

What exactly is there to turn around here? What you stated is the basic reason why tuning doesn't exist for Gen IV (and now V) cars...there aren't enough of them to recoup the R&D costs associated with cracking the rolling encryption. Part of it is SRT's fault for making it so difficult to crack the rolling encryption...if that barrier didn't exist, companies might be a bit more willing to give it a go even though any potential profit margin will be limited by low volume.

What it would be is a nod to the hot-rodders out there...the guys that make up at least some of the Viper customer base that think OEM power numbers just aren't enough. Or would just like to fix the Gen IV's laggy throttle response without having to buy a $10k-$20k stand-alone or a $100k-$140k Gen V.

 

[Steve M]

My point cannot be argued - the viper community has/had a great tool for tuning, however, very few have used it. For those that have not used the SCT programmer is can control virtually all aspects of the pcm that are critical to tuning. You are so concerned about a locked pcm, however, when a tuning tool was available, few used it.

The only person arguing here seems to be you...I fully understand why Viper aftermarket tuning offerings are slim and none, and I would also agree that very few Gen II/III owners want/need such a product. But they at least have that option, whereas Gen IV and V guys do not. That's the heart of the issue...the point you bring up is why there will likely never be a solution.

 

[Jack B]

Petition SCT, not SRT.
.

The only person arguing here seems to be you...I fully understand why Viper aftermarket tuning offerings are slim and none, and I would also agree that very few Gen II/III owners want/need such a product. But they at least have that option, whereas Gen IV and V guys do not. That's the heart of the issue...the point you bring up is why there will likely never be a solution.

 

[AJ usmc]

not yet. they kept postponing my ship date to basic. but finally I have it locked down, I leave June 10th to Paris Island.

The reason I don't like flash tunes is because I've seen to many local "performance" shops that flashed code vehicles blow the motors or trip codes. I know the blown motors was because of over-rev or not beefing the internals after adding FI. but when it trips a code and lags out and/or backfires both ways, that's not acceptable to me. so I, personally, would invest that 30% into a computer. I'm not made of money like some on here are. but what I do have is time, and passion in everything I do. and in the line of work I'm fixing to do, if I don't have that passion and do something the quick and easy way, a part could fail, aircraft can go down and people could die. I know that seems on the extreme side and cars are different, but its true and I hold quality in my work above all else.

 

[BigDawg]

There will never be a supercharged OEM V10 in a Viper from SRT. The speculation suggesting that there will be one is mental ************.

Nor should there be. The Viper's MO is massive displacement naturally aspirated. There are plenty of people anxious to drop big money making 1000+ HP Gen V Vipers. If SRT doesn't support this then these people will continue spending that coin on GTRs, Corvettes, and Gallardos.

 

[Mopar Boy]

A few thoughts:

I could not agree more. This is why I am hoping SRT has had plans all along to release the code at some point. If not why would they even bother with forged internals?

When SRT has to design something like a Viper engine that will be sold in smaller numbers, it makes sense to build everything as solid as you can so that when the next few years come along, and they want to up the power, the bottom end does not need changing. It also helps for things like bolt on parts when Mopar has them available as the bottom end can already handle them. I believe that also helps with not requiring recertification as the engine would basically be using the same parts.

There will never be a supercharged OEM V10 in a Viper from SRT. The speculation suggesting that there will be one is mental ************.

That was awesome!



As for releasing a factory code for gen 5, a few thoughts:

1 - SRT's primary focus MUST BE building cars and having them last. Releasing codes for tuning is not what Chrysler does as a company. They make cars. That is what companies like EFIlive, SCT etc do.
2 - Adding power beyond what they were designed is a potential premature failure. Premature failure ends up as a warranty claim. Yes, I know there are ways to correctly tune an engine and not hurt it. But with programs like EFI live there is a lot of damage that can be done very quickly if one does not know what they are doing (not to mention things like blown diff's, trannies, etc that were never designed for that type of power).
3 - As a car manufacturer, there primary concern is NOT what the aftermarket needs or wants. They are building a vehicle and that is that. Yes, I know some buyers will get pissed and maybe even walk away from a vehicle that they can't tune, but like most manufacturers, you can't please everyone. You have to pick and choose the battles.
4 - As for the comments on codes and parts, yes, they may very well be coming. But be mindful, SRT is a small group and they can only do so much. To further that, much of the performance related stuff comes through Mopar, not SRT. And if you know how large corporations work, the extra parts section has the least amount of pull. Meaning, before Mopar can release anything (PCM, bolt on upgrade, etc) it must go through the required testing. Those tests are performed in the same labs as the cars in design parts go through. Guess who gets priority when it comes to a part being tested? Mopar for a part for the new Viper or a part that the new Caravan platform is waiting on? You go it. The part that goes to the vehicle in design. The small guy will little pull has to wait until there is an opening.
5 - Last thought. With a brand new vehicle having just been released, SRT/Mopar now has the ability to collaborate on parts that can be made available. Until finalized design, and software for PCM is in place, nothing can really even be started. And once started, design, testing, redesign, certification, final testing, tooling, and going to market takes more than a few weeks. Actually, that all takes more than a few months. In other words, have some patience folks. Much of this is still coming and have trust that they will deliver what they have promised is coming.


Oh, and EFI live does their own hacking. GM and Ford vehicles are easily hacked into. With Dodge is known for some of the best coding in the industry. Not to mention the smallest consumer market of the big 3 for EFI hence the lowest ROI (when they have the highest cost to hack due to PCM coding complexity)

 

[FLL-B/W-GTS]

AJ USMC,don,t want to hurt your feelings, but you are not a US Marine until you complete your training at Paris Island. Believe me, you do not want to present yourself to a Marine or Former Marine until you do,you will not like the response .You will learn this when you arrive on the Island ,as I did.
Congratulations on joining the Marines,best organization in the world....Let us know when you graduate..I hope you are getting ready,it is very,very tough...
Good Luck

USMC Sergeant (Ret)

 

[AJ usmc]

yes sir. I know and its alright. I didn't say I was, only my name did, I didn't see a way to change your name tag on here and aj was already taken, and I didn't want to use my last name, so.. I used my soon to be career.
I have a 280 pft so I'm ok physically. I just have to get through training and the mental/physical abuse. I will let everybody know when I do.

 

[TrackAire]

yes sir. I know and its alright. I didn't say I was, only my name did, I didn't see a way to change your name tag on here and aj was already taken, and I didn't want to use my last name, so.. I used my soon to be career.
I have a 280 pft so I'm ok physically. I just have to get through training and the mental/physical abuse. I will let everybody know when I do.

Good luck in the Marines, you'll do fine. Just like anything else, the mental aspect is the toughest.

My motto is "Admit to nothing, deny everything and make counter accusations".....by the time they figure you out, you'll be done and out of basic.

Cheers,
George

 

[Bobpantax]

Tens of thousands have successfully gone through the basic training process before you. Keep that in mind. Part of that process is to learn to understand your emotions and control them under stress. No one makes you feel bad. You allow what they say or do to make you feel bad. Or, you can take it with a grain of salt and learn what they are trying to teach you about surviving in a hostile environment and acting together with a team. Humor does not hurt either. If you have the ability to step outside the moment and the context, there are many funny things that happen in basic training. Give it your all and your best. You will learn much about yourself that you may have otherwise never learned.

 

[FLL-B/W-GTS]

AJ,
That is exactly what I did,pt like crazy before I got their. I had around the same (280 ish),when I graduated did a 300 pt . Just some advise, the first phase/month is very difficult. Cryed my self to sleep a couple nights, of course know one knew. But,then all of a sudden you start getting use to the training and you start to like it. Then next thing you know you are walking down that parade deck as a US Marine...

So be strong,keep you mouth shut and do exactly what they tell and you will be fine..

Good Luck again...