SRT10 with V8 ?

[Z06J]

I think there could be an argument for the V8 Firepower concept. Notice that I didn't say V8 Viper. Everyone jumped on the V8 Viper thing because the press releases on the Firepower said that it was built on the Viper frame. It's easy to see why that would be, because that frame is little more than a go kart frame and it would be the easiest one to start with on a new concept car.

Now back to the argument for the V8 concept -- first of all, Dodge needs a lower priced car to serve as an entry concept to the Viper. It's a big step from an SRT-4 to a Viper and they need a bridge to bring on younger buyers up to the Viper level (they lose too many to the mid priced Vettes). Secondly, such a mid priced car could give them some volume sales to help underwrite the whole Viper/SRT program. If they packaged it well, including the whole range from the SRT-4, Firepower (or whatever), and Viper with some real ADVERTISING and proper courting of the auto magazines, etc. they might really have something.

I agree they shouldn't even consider a V8 in a Viper, but who says that the Viper couldn't have a little brother -- like Corvette is going to have the Solstice!

That is a great point of view. But the soul of the Viper is the V10 and shouldn't be messed with but you are right there needs to be another car in the mix that bridges that gap.

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

What Dodge bridged the gap for the past 12 years?

 

[viper GTS-R]

I think there could be an argument for the V8 Firepower concept. Notice that I didn't say V8 Viper. Everyone jumped on the V8 Viper thing because the press releases on the Firepower said that it was built on the Viper frame. It's easy to see why that would be, because that frame is little more than a go kart frame and it would be the easiest one to start with on a new concept car.

Now back to the argument for the V8 concept -- first of all, Dodge needs a lower priced car to serve as an entry concept to the Viper. It's a big step from an SRT-4 to a Viper and they need a bridge to bring on younger buyers up to the Viper level (they lose too many to the mid priced Vettes). Secondly, such a mid priced car could give them some volume sales to help underwrite the whole Viper/SRT program. If they packaged it well, including the whole range from the SRT-4, Firepower (or whatever), and Viper with some real ADVERTISING and proper courting of the auto magazines, etc. they might really have something.

I agree they shouldn't even consider a V8 in a Viper, but who says that the Viper couldn't have a little brother -- like Corvette is going to have the Solstice!

Excellent post why the Firepower didn't click in my mind is just plain weird.

 

[Snakester]

Great comments.

My honest feelings are that as long as they meet their HP and Speed goals, then we should all be happy campers. Who'd ever thought that a SC E55 would take the world by storm. And now it's the SL65, and the SLR that all have power adders. In order for a car to do over 200MPH, in 3 years, just think of what or how big that engine must be. Or just take a look at the Ford GT. 5.4L with a SC. 550HP and 500lbs/ft. Detroit Auto Show is coming soon. It's my guess we should know something then. And I think we're all going to be surprised, a little.

One biiiig problem with this arguement- it has been widely advertised that AMG will no longer be using power adders going forward. They have decided that naturally aspirated motors will be their future, so it seem counterintuitive to think that they would go just the opposite way with the Viper

I'd be very surprised if this was true. Outside of the new BMW's ugly Bangle styling, the only great advantage that Mercedes has had in their sedan wars is power. BMW has stuck to normally aspirated engines, and have had most all of their cars coming out MUCH slower than their Mercedes AMG rival vehicles.

You can see that some of the new AMG cars have decided to stuff bigger engines in a couple of their cars, instead of the previous smaller supercharged engines. But it's a minority of the AMG cars, with most of them being supercharged or turbocharged.

Of course if you followed the rumor of no forced induction, it would point to keeping the current V10, which can easily be made to produce more power (as shown by the 625HP-N/A SEMA "Carbon" Viper). But supercharging a 6.0L V10 does add a lot of flexibility, and easy, inexpensive mods to make more power.

Even though the 5.4L Ford GT is rated at 550HP, it's clear from the car's test performance that the supercharged V8 cars are outputting closer to 625HP++, and are highly underrrated.

I'm still voting for a 700HP, supercharged 8.3L V10.

If they build a 425HP Firepower, that is more plush to compete with the SL500, XLR, and Jag coupes, for say $65K, and then add the supercharger to the Viper to push it fully into supercar territory for maybe $90K, that would round out the offerings nicely.

 

[Hans Christian]

Snakester,

I like your reasoning - I would buy one of each.

 

[TacDoc]

I just dont get it. I buy VIPER because of its aggressive styling and performance envelope. I could not care less if it had a V10 or V8 as long as it has the power to make it what the VIPER stands for. In all honesty a big block HEMI V8 would probably sound a helluva lot better than our V10's. My GTS has Belangers, Random Techs, and a Corsa 3"; my SRT has the Corsa track system, and they still do not sound as good as most Mustangs. I will always be in VIPERS as long as they stay tru to being a brutal high performance vehicle able to kick asp on and off track, regardless of V10 or V8.

 

[Viperfreak2]

A Viper is a V-10 car.Drop in a V8 and its DEAD.You can't beat a GM v8. GTS Bruce

I agree that the Viper should always be a V-10 but if we are just talking engines.... Can't beat a GM v8? Last time I looked, 425hp from a 6.1 hemi was better than the 400hp of the current 6.0 vette/Caddy CTSV/Chevy SSR/Pontiac GTO engine. Did I miss any cars that GM puts this engine in?

The Conner Ave plant needs to build less Vipers and add a second model to be efficient. They need to build about 1000 Vipers per year and 1500 Firepowers/Snipers/whateveryouwannacallems. The 6.1 Hemi is surely a modular engine, and I wouldn't be suprised to find out the Hemi V-10 is near. Should be over 600hp without a SC.

 

[SylvanSRT]

if its faster and better i am in for what ever engine the car has, BUT i wont be selling the SRT-10

 

[Torquemonster]

I've also heard the small V8 is definitely one option DC have (or are) looking at.... not just that, but also a V10 which would be a completely new engine of no more than 7 liters.

Another option they have OBVIOUSLY considered is to adopt the Hemi head design into the 8.3 liter powerplant. That would be the easiest thing to do, and therefore the cheapest as all castings could be sent to a private tuning house like Wheel to Wheel or an upgraded SRT if they wish to close a plant.

One option DC has not seriously considered but one the PUBLIC would LOVE and BUY - would be an all aluminum factory re-release of the muscle-car based big blocks. A 572 cube (4.5" bore x 4.5" stroke) weighs well under 500lb WET and whether Hemi or wedge (wedge being lighter and probably better all round) has far more power potential than any production based powerplant in any car of any OEM origin.... from a tow package 600hp to a 2000+hp monster all bases are covered.

Nothing beats the sound of a mountain motor, or the gut wrenching power. Not even the existing V10 will hold a candle to it. It's shorter and lighter - why not try that?

It'd be a marketing blitz amongst potential customers....

and hated by all the tree huggers...

With modern engine technology, using hand built limited production runs allowing tight blueprint tolerances, tight quench, coatings, and high tech engine management - the part throttle emisions and mileage would be a lot better than a US gas powered V8 SUV.

The need for limited production ultra high performance cars to meet strict requirements using conventional technology is stupid when they are turning out SUV's by the million - the most wasteful transportation systems on the planet.... a few Vipers per year hardly make a dent, so why make them met the same standard?

Using UNconventional technology the big car manufacturers can get fantastic mileage and clean air out of any IC engine....

when they decide to finally use it.... those that scoffed at some of the urban myths laughed too soon...

as they say - the truth is at first hated, then ridiculed, before finally being seen as self-evident.

 

[Viperfreak2]

Let's not worry too much about emissions in 2006 and beyond. George W. will fix it.
His policies are very clear:
Drill for oil in Alaska
Roll back the Clinton environmental stuff
Keep the EPA in check so we can drive what we wanna drive.

I'm sure there are differing opinions...

 

[Jim Z]

One option DC has not seriously considered but one the PUBLIC would LOVE and BUY - would be an all aluminum factory re-release of the muscle-car based big blocks. A 572 cube (4.5" bore x 4.5" stroke) weighs well under 500lb WET and whether Hemi or wedge (wedge being lighter and probably better all round) has far more power potential than any production based powerplant in any car of any OEM origin.... from a tow package 600hp to a 2000+hp monster all bases are covered.

It would be very hard to emissionize, regardless of any "Handbuilding" or "Blueprinting." Emissions concerns are what led to the introduction of the V10 in the first place- one of the early plans for the T-300 ('94 Ram) was to modernize the RB engine (383/440) but that was scuttled. It's harder to reduce emissions in large-bore engines. I'll wager that the GM Vortec 8100 will not be around much longer either.

Using UNconventional technology the big car manufacturers can get fantastic mileage and clean air out of any IC engine....

that'd be true, if it weren't for those pesky laws of physics. There's only so much energy a piston engine can extract from a unit of fuel.

Another option they have OBVIOUSLY considered is to adopt the Hemi head design into the 8.3 liter powerplant.

Impractical with what they currently have. The block would have to be completely redesigned. For one, the Hemi has the camshaft extremely high in the block, the pushrods are almost horizontal.

 

[Torquemonster]

Using UNconventional technology the big car manufacturers can get fantastic mileage and clean air out of any IC engine....

that'd be true, if it weren't for those pesky laws of physics. There's only so much energy a piston engine can extract from a unit of fuel.

Jim you make some good points - except the above one.... a gallon of gas has enough energy to send a Viper a very long way in the air - straight up.... the laws of physics aren't close to reaching the theoretical limits...

If you get over to Maryland sometime I'll go show you a facility that has gas engines converted and running on direct injection without spark. They'll burn almost anything inflammable, be cleaner and leaner than anything you've seen, and maintain power... while being light as a gas engine (they were one afterall) not heavy like a normal direct injection engine (don't need the ultra high compression)....

and this is only ONE of MANY ways....

that particular facility is working on a military project - but I managed to get a very detailed tour from the CEO, thanks to a good mutual friend

BTW - the old Pogue carb was no prank or hoax no matter how many nutters took up the cause later.... if you think 25mpg out of a Viper engine is near the limit you aren't even close.... you are simply close to what the traditional models will let you go.... (actually even that is wrong - with turbos and a Viper you could make 1000hp and get 30mpg at cruise with ease without dropping cylinders... that would not take rocket science, in fact I think it'd be basic)

anyway, I'll leave it at that - no one wins these arguments.

Using non conventional technology - I'll say this and you can laugh - if DC's existance depended on their being able to produce a 500cube engine that could make 500hp yet return 50mpg at cruise - it'd be done in a fraction of the time you believe it was possible. There are quite a few folk who already know how Jim... just not the regular engineers.

Not sure if those involved in this R & D project still work at DC - but DC had a "rather special" V8 secret project in the early 80's - you'd be amazed what they got out of that thing! a LOT more than 50mpg and great power to boot!

impossible? it's more comfortable to believe that - afterall, if it is true - how do we explain why we can't buy one without being labelled one of those "lunatic" conspiracy buffs?

I find it helps just to not care what people think. Facts remain facts long after skeptics scoffed. Everyone once thought the earth was flat...

the IC engine is old tech compared to what else has been invented but it still has a long way to go to reach its full potential.

 

[Frank Parise]

In the good old days we ordered our muscle cars from the factory with the exact options we wanted. Usually we had 5 or 6 choices on the engine package alone. It would be awesome if we were offered our choice of engines.

I believe the "soul" of the Viper is its brute power in terms of torque and ponies, and styling, not the number of cylinders.

DC, to truly raise the bar, pleae consider a 2006 mid-engine V8 supercar producing 600+ torque and horsepower and weighing less than 2,800 pounds in street trim, base priced around $69,000. To hit your cost targets, make it as crude and rude as you want, and let the buyer select his idiot options. I believe the DC designers are the best in the world, and they would have a field day with this one! Actually, they could make good use of the stlying features on the ME412.

 

[Frank Parise]

In the good old days we ordered our muscle cars from the factory with the exact options we wanted. Usually we had 5 or 6 choices on the engine package alone. It would be awesome if we were offered our choice of engines.

I believe the "soul" of the Viper is its brute power in terms of torque and ponies, and styling, not the number of cylinders.

DC, to truly raise the bar on Viper, pleae consider a 2006 mid-engine V8 producing 600+ torque and horsepower and weighing less than 2,800 pounds in street trim, base priced around $69,000. To hit your cost targets, make it as crude and rude as you want, and let the buyer select his idiot options. I believe the DC designers are the best in the world, and they would have a field day with this one! Actually, they could make good use of the stlying features on the ME412.

 

[Jim Z]

BTW - the old Pogue carb was no prank or hoax no matter how many nutters took up the cause later....

http://www.mikebrownsolutions.com/fish3.htm

Uh huh. Listen, sir. I AM an engineer. I've studied thermodynamics. What the Pogue carburetor promised is patently impossible. Read up on the First Law of Thermodynamics and Carnot Efficiency sometime.

Not sure if those involved in this R & D project still work at DC - but DC had a "rather special" V8 secret project in the early 80's - you'd be amazed what they got out of that thing! a LOT more than 50mpg and great power to boot!

Then why was it never marketed? Chrysler could have made billions on it.

impossible? it's more comfortable to believe that - afterall, if it is true - how do we explain why we can't buy one without being labelled one of those "lunatic" conspiracy buffs?

It would be different if it were even theoretically possible. But it isn't. It's far easier to blame the typical "bogeymen" (Big Oil, the automakers, et al.) Ask yourself- with today's gas prices, don't you think the automakers would be falling all over themselves to get this on the market so they could keep selling big SUVs which got 50 mpg? Don't you think Europe (land of the $5 gallon of gas) would have embraced it fully by now?

I find it helps just to not care what people think.

Well, they do say "ignorance is bliss..."

 

[Torquemonster]

ok Jim.... yes the earth is flat.

btw - I've known many engineers... I've had 130 under me... if you ever worked in military top secret R & D or even commercially very sensitive R & D projects your text book world might have expanded....

I'll be the big dummy here so your world can stay upright. I stand by what I said.

 

[STORMCAT]

I'm with Ooomph. Give the Viper a MB V-12. There has to be some cost savings to DC on the shared mfg. side. A V-10 hemi head motor would be to heavy. There's nothing like the sound of a V - 12....

 

[jrkermode]

Something to keep in mind is the whole secret to Mercedes' financial success is the ability to mix and match a limited number of vehicle platforms and drivetrains.

Last I heard (on Autoline Detroit), DCX was by far the most profitable ($/unit) of the big 3.

So, it makes sense that DCX would like the Viper platform and drivetrain to be shared as much as possible.

I don't believe that is a bad thing.

If they re-issued the Gen 2 GTS on a modified SL platform and included a monster version of the new HEMI (7L = 426cid!), I'd be very, very tempted to switch.

 

[Steve Ferguson]

Viper will remain V10, but with many changes (I think this engine can go through 2006, then bye bye). The new version will be at least 600 HP, but I would bet on a little more. Viper and V10 are kinda stuck together and if one goes you can bet they will just elimiate the whole thing. Will it be a V10 Hemi? Can't say, but I am pretty sure one was at least being tested.

The V8 for the new Chrysler on the Viper Frame should be good for 450 HP (up 25 from SRT8), and that you can say was from a little birdie and 2 bottles of red wine 2 years ago!

Building a Chrysler product that can use ANY of the Viper components will only help the life of Viper since it will help to keep cost in line. So we should ALL be happy if the "other" car gets made simply becuase it will help at keeping vipers more affordable!

 

[Hans Christian]

Steve,

Thanks for sharing - your input sounds promising and comforting. Will the autoshow in Jan give us all the news we are looking for (e.g. new coupe confirmation, engine performace increase ??)

NB: Agree 100% with your view on using the viper base, parts etc on other cars to keep cost in check on our animal.