Cop Magnet
Enthusiast
Hey, so did I!
Stability Control and my 2009 SRT crash
- Thread starter ferraritoviper
- Start date
Hey, so did I!
pteam
Viper Owner
Maybe crybabies should take some classes before installing an SC on a car he can't handle.
Or maybe have Woodhouse stick in a racelogix... you know TC that is available TODAY!?
please note that those of you making fun of me for voting for traction control, I'm not the only one. And if you couldnt read above, I dont "need" traction control on my viper. And if you still dont know how to read above, you would see that this is my 2nd viper and I have never been in an accident with either, not even a ding. I drive my car daily in the summer. So I guess you can take those comments and shove it with the guys above who say that they're man enough without traction control yet "they have already wrecked a viper". yea that makes real sense...
Maybe this should be some of your quotes in your signature:
"Hey guys lets go wreck our vipers and then say that we dont need traction control it wouldnt have helped anyway!"
or
"Thats why I bought it so I wouldnt have traction control and can wreck it!"
Janni
Enthusiast
Honestly - the ESC debate is a moot one. it's coming - it will be mandated by the government in what? 2012?
HOWEVER - I would like it's implementation to be as unintrusive as possible. I don't want it to save your bacon no matter how ridiculous a stunt you pull. I don't want it kicking in as soon as the tail starts to kick out a little. "Oh no - that's too much like fun, can't have any of that!"
I don't want it to make the Viper a car for everyone. I don't want the fact that is has ESC or a form of TC to make it appeal to the people that will next want it to be fitted with an auto (because shifting is just soooooo hard in traffic), or to be fitted with electronic dual zone climate control (because my SO gets cold / hot / drafty in the passengers seat), or dual power ventilated seats with memory because I can't show up at the club with perspiration on my PING golf shirt....
The purists will grudgingly accept ESC when it comes - but we'll want SRT to implement it as a SAFETY NET not as a constantly cycling aid that allows anyone to drive the Viper. Just like ABS. ABS should be there as a safety net - and threshold braking is still a skill we should all acquire - but we can fall back on ABS in an emergency. Most of the time - however - it's along for the ride and does not interfere with our overall enjoyment.
The bottom line is that I want ESC / TC to help save me from the OTHER idiots on the road, but not save me from myself. Plenty of other cars that can do all that, and more, for a driver.
HOWEVER - I would like it's implementation to be as unintrusive as possible. I don't want it to save your bacon no matter how ridiculous a stunt you pull. I don't want it kicking in as soon as the tail starts to kick out a little. "Oh no - that's too much like fun, can't have any of that!"
I don't want it to make the Viper a car for everyone. I don't want the fact that is has ESC or a form of TC to make it appeal to the people that will next want it to be fitted with an auto (because shifting is just soooooo hard in traffic), or to be fitted with electronic dual zone climate control (because my SO gets cold / hot / drafty in the passengers seat), or dual power ventilated seats with memory because I can't show up at the club with perspiration on my PING golf shirt....
The purists will grudgingly accept ESC when it comes - but we'll want SRT to implement it as a SAFETY NET not as a constantly cycling aid that allows anyone to drive the Viper. Just like ABS. ABS should be there as a safety net - and threshold braking is still a skill we should all acquire - but we can fall back on ABS in an emergency. Most of the time - however - it's along for the ride and does not interfere with our overall enjoyment.
The bottom line is that I want ESC / TC to help save me from the OTHER idiots on the road, but not save me from myself. Plenty of other cars that can do all that, and more, for a driver.
Perhaps we also 'need' those breathilizer starter systems??? That would save more lives than any stupid ESC or Magnetoshock systems and would probably only cost the owners about $1,000???
Sheesh, that's Government for yah.
Here in BC they 'de-criminalized' *** smoking to 'save money on cops and courts" and gave us a $50 fine for ***. Then in all their wisdom they decided that smoking a cigarette with a 16 year old in the car was like ****** and instituted a $435 fine. So ... I can smoke *** in my car or in the office with a $50 fine, but $435 to $182 for smoking a cigarette?
Kinda makes you think that anything the Goverment does is the dumbest thing possible, eh?
I don't do drugs and don't drink, but our Minister of Safety said, "After 8pm we all know that 10% of drivers on the road are Impaired." Now they take your car if impaired "to prevent the furtherence of the offence. They have the option to sell it. Guess they won't be seizing/selling any junkers ... just good cars? If YOU have a drug problem then go to Vancouver. My tax dollars will provide you with clean iv needles and give you a place to shoot-up.
Government is all about STUPID. Instead of being intelligent, our Government is easy on criminals and encourages druggies.
Isn't the Gov. supposed to collect money to pay Police, courts and build roads? Instead they lie and collect most of our money, ruin business for entrepeneurs and only hand out 1 month per million dollar jail sentencesnces for "white collar" criminals???
I suppose we should plan on ESC
Ted
Sheesh, that's Government for yah.
Here in BC they 'de-criminalized' *** smoking to 'save money on cops and courts" and gave us a $50 fine for ***. Then in all their wisdom they decided that smoking a cigarette with a 16 year old in the car was like ****** and instituted a $435 fine. So ... I can smoke *** in my car or in the office with a $50 fine, but $435 to $182 for smoking a cigarette?
Kinda makes you think that anything the Goverment does is the dumbest thing possible, eh?
I don't do drugs and don't drink, but our Minister of Safety said, "After 8pm we all know that 10% of drivers on the road are Impaired." Now they take your car if impaired "to prevent the furtherence of the offence. They have the option to sell it. Guess they won't be seizing/selling any junkers ... just good cars? If YOU have a drug problem then go to Vancouver. My tax dollars will provide you with clean iv needles and give you a place to shoot-up.
Government is all about STUPID. Instead of being intelligent, our Government is easy on criminals and encourages druggies.
Isn't the Gov. supposed to collect money to pay Police, courts and build roads? Instead they lie and collect most of our money, ruin business for entrepeneurs and only hand out 1 month per million dollar jail sentencesnces for "white collar" criminals???
I suppose we should plan on ESC
Ted
Last edited:
Flying Viper
Enthusiast
WOW this post is really going places now!!!!!
Cop Magnet
Enthusiast
Sorry, Chuck and Janni.
I couldn't resist rearranging the posts. It's just "ironical" how vehemently people can post their impressions when they are dealing with a newbie or an against-the-grain viewpoint. Welcome to the internet, eh? But NO ONE goes against Janni!
Janni
Enthusiast
Sorry, Chuck and Janni.
HA! Don't I wish. (Can I print this and show to Henry???)
Us old timers have seen too many folks buy the car because they thought it was (raw, powerful, gorgeous, etc) and then come on and said "I just bought this, but jeez, it needs to be changed NOW!"
WARNING - sexist comment approaching
And usually it's the guys that bought the car because it was so radical and had excellent performance, then, they wreck it , or almost wreck it - and suddenly it's the cars fault.
The goofy purist old timers love the car for what it is, and as much for what it isn't.
And I can say this as I cruised around this weekend in our hard care ACR - no hood insulation, no radio, no trunk carpeting, no speakers.... you hear EVERYTHING. But that's pretty cool - because that's what we wanted - a no compromises track ready reduced weight V10 beast.
Chuck 98 RT/10
Enthusiast
WARNING - sexist comment approaching
And usually it's the guys that bought the car because it was so radical and had excellent performance, then, they wreck it , or almost wreck it - and suddenly it's the cars fault.
So true Janni and I'll take it a step further, it's the guys who wanted the Viper image that cry for TC. They accuse the non-nanny crowd of being egotists when they are the ones with the ego and racecar driver wannabee problem. They bought a sports car but they don't drive it for sport, they drive it to show off to the neighbors. The non-nanny crowd just wants a car they can enjoy practicing perfecting their sport - which happens to be driving.
Woodhouse Dodge installs traction control. Buy your Viper from Woodhouse and have them install TC for you.
Chuck 98 RT/10
Enthusiast
Gee, why would I take that as a negative comment?
You should've kept researching. I also have a 97 GTS that I've been tracking 8-12 times a year for ten years. I suppose I could have saved all that 97 GTS tracking money (and VCA, Viper vendors, Viper Days support) and the 120,000 miles on my RT/10 and bought two 2009 ACRs by now, but nope, I decided to have fun using the Vipers as they were intended. How's that for an ambassador?
BTW, how many Viper Days have you attended?
Oh, and I'm also a Venom member while you are...not?
And you've got the nerve to call me out.
ummm, I'm watching those idiots on Top Gear. They hated the new Honda. They said that a Citroen comes with a vibrating seat base to shake you awake when you get close to the edge of the road (High tech nanny). Apparently 1 girl drove for over a hundred miles along the rough edge of the road just to keep the vibrator on.
So the one guy brought a vibrating seat bottom and said he found it very irritating. He invited a girl to test it by sitting on it and she really liked it! Hammond said that he thinks it's unsafe as the women can't see well once they're sweaty and cross-eyed. Too funny.
Gov. required in 5 years???
Or maybe Dodge should copy the vette and offer a few Hemis and a V6 in the Viper for safety?
Ted
So the one guy brought a vibrating seat bottom and said he found it very irritating. He invited a girl to test it by sitting on it and she really liked it! Hammond said that he thinks it's unsafe as the women can't see well once they're sweaty and cross-eyed. Too funny.
Gov. required in 5 years???
Or maybe Dodge should copy the vette and offer a few Hemis and a V6 in the Viper for safety?
Ted
Last edited:
Warfang
Enthusiast
You are one of a few. So go with your fellow ninnies and do a group buy on racelogix.... as Chuck says: SUPPORT WOODHOUSE!!!
Warfang
Enthusiast
I see the mods are still sleepin on the job...
VENOMAHOLIC
Enthusiast
First I am glad Ferrari to Viper is OK.
His accident is a perfect example how dependent we are becoming on tech nannies. Hitting the gas pedal in his Ferrari in 2nd will activate the TC and lighten up the gas. Fair warning to him that the TC will fail sooner or later from a fuse or other tech nannie long term issue. It may take a few years but tech is not reliable enough long term. He gets into a 600 hp Viper and does what he is used to from his Ferrari and other cars. The Viper, like millions of cars that existed before TC , reacted as if there was a throttle cable and spun the tires hard.
Before TC existed, common sense would cause people to respect and almost fear 600 hp. That is the way it was and should always be. This was a driver error accident and should never be viewed any other way.
Kudos to Ferrari to Viper for his brave post on this site. He appears to be getting back on the horse but adding TC will not make him a better driver. It pusts him back into the same videogame land he started in with the Ferrari. TC brings the driver one big step further from the reality of learnig the physics involved that improve a driver's ability. I suggest to him that he use this as a wake up experience and learn the physics of driving in probably the last raw supercar to exist before the government ruins everything.
His accident is a perfect example how dependent we are becoming on tech nannies. Hitting the gas pedal in his Ferrari in 2nd will activate the TC and lighten up the gas. Fair warning to him that the TC will fail sooner or later from a fuse or other tech nannie long term issue. It may take a few years but tech is not reliable enough long term. He gets into a 600 hp Viper and does what he is used to from his Ferrari and other cars. The Viper, like millions of cars that existed before TC , reacted as if there was a throttle cable and spun the tires hard.
Before TC existed, common sense would cause people to respect and almost fear 600 hp. That is the way it was and should always be. This was a driver error accident and should never be viewed any other way.
Kudos to Ferrari to Viper for his brave post on this site. He appears to be getting back on the horse but adding TC will not make him a better driver. It pusts him back into the same videogame land he started in with the Ferrari. TC brings the driver one big step further from the reality of learnig the physics involved that improve a driver's ability. I suggest to him that he use this as a wake up experience and learn the physics of driving in probably the last raw supercar to exist before the government ruins everything.
Warfang
Enthusiast
Chuck 98 RT/10
Enthusiast
Kit cars will be all that remains. Those Cobra kits are looking pretty tempting. Do you think if we get those the nannies will leave us alone, or will they follow us into that market and cry about no nanny Cobra kits too?
ferraritoviper
Enthusiast
Well stated, and yes, it was my error..., however being a mere mortal, and a Viper newbie at that, ESC could have saved me from myself, which was my point along. I want it for my car, not for anyone elses....was only relating a timely example off the previous ESC thread. However, in discussing with Chuck Tator he is concerned about possible long term damage to engine using an ESC add on, and is looking into it. That being said, I will be driving my Sweet Viper very carefully for the next 2-1/2 yrs, when I'll turn it in for the new itineration of the 360, the Ferrari F458 Italia...In Viper Red with White Racing Stripes of course
Cop Magnet
Enthusiast
F2V, you are giving in.
VENOMAHOLIC
Enthusiast
Well stated, and yes, it was my error..., however being a mere mortal, and a Viper newbie at that, ESC could have saved me from myself, which was my point along. I want it for my car, not for anyone elses....was only relating a timely example off the previous ESC thread. However, in discussing with Chuck Tator he is concerned about possible long term damage to engine using an ESC add on, and is looking into it. That being said, I will be driving my Sweet Viper very carefully for the next 2-1/2 yrs, when I'll turn it in for the new itineration of the 360, the Ferrari F458 Italia...In Viper Red with White Racing Stripes of course
I am a mere mortal myself. I got bit myself within 1000 miles of my Viper ownership also. The skip shift activated when I was driving slow around a corner. I slammed it into what I thought was 4th but was actually 2nd and took out a mailbox and got some curb rash. I planned on deactivating the skip shift but wasn't quick enough.
Hope you get back on the road soon.
Well stated, and yes, it was my error..., however being a mere mortal, and a Viper newbie at that, ESC could have saved me from myself, which was my point along. I want it for my car, not for anyone elses....was only relating a timely example off the previous ESC thread. However, in discussing with Chuck Tator he is concerned about possible long term damage to engine using an ESC add on, and is looking into it. That being said, I will be driving my Sweet Viper very carefully for the next 2-1/2 yrs, when I'll turn it in for the new itineration of the 360, the Ferrari F458 Italia...In Viper Red with White Racing Stripes of course
Hopefully, I mis-understand this post and it doesn't really say that you're going to buy a Ferrari instead?
I mean, as do many others, why not just improve your driving skills with a couple of days of HPD Instruction? When the Instructors get in the car with vette/Ferrari guys they make certain that you can drive the car a little ... then they turn down, or turn off the nannies. Once you learn how to handle the car you don't need nannies slowing it down for you.
Challenger V6s come with ESC.
I took the wife's 08 Ram 1500 pick-up (with ESC)for a ride down the gravel road. I managed to fishtail for a block or so before almost losing it and doing a donut. It was a lot of work but the 06 Charger V6 with ESP that I drove down the gravel road wouldn't let me drive over 30mph (joke). Obviously the 08 ESC is a much better system as I've never noticed any Nanny hindering my driving abilities. The pickup slides around gravel corners and when hitting washboard the rear will move 2' sideways.
Ted
Warfang
Enthusiast
unfortunately yes... the ninnies will then flock to the kit cars because by then all nannied cars will be seen as wussmobiles, so they'll want kit cars that dont have nannies with the "appearance" of being raw... then they'll get scared again and demand nannies in everything. Rinse, lather, repeat.
WILDASP
Enthusiast
F2V, with all due respect, I'll respond to that by saying this: TC/ESC might (operative word MIGHT) have bailed you out of that mistake, this time. If it had, it might just as easily have failed to do so the next time, or the time after that; the point is, that in any case you wouldn't have known, until it was too late. I say that, even though I believe that you are smart enough, and sufficiently well trained, to use these aids as they are intended; i.e. as a safety net, not a bulletproof shield. These things (the best of them, anyway), work pretty well, most of the time. There is however a downside to this. Electronic devices, of whatever kind, occasionally fail. Murphy's Law applies here, which means that any such failure is apt to occur at the most inopportune moment. This has in fact happened to a number of drivers (numerous examples have been posted in various forums devoted to cars that have these devices). Do they help? Yep, sometimes. Are they foolproof? Nope, not by a long shot, so depending on them to save your hide is......well, being one blown fuse or other malfunction away from disaster. I won't bet my life, or anyone else's, on these devices; I hope you won't, either.Well stated, and yes, it was my error..., however being a mere mortal, and a Viper newbie at that, ESC could have saved me from myself, which was my point along. I want it for my car, not for anyone elses....was only relating a timely example off the previous ESC thread. However, in discussing with Chuck Tator he is concerned about possible long term damage to engine using an ESC add on, and is looking into it. That being said, I will be driving my Sweet Viper very carefully for the next 2-1/2 yrs, when I'll turn it in for the new itineration of the 360, the Ferrari F458 Italia...In Viper Red with White Racing Stripes of course
Now that we have that out of the way, let's focus on what would have "saved you from yourself", to paraphrase your words. There's a lesson in there for anyone transitioning from any other car to a Viper, or any other ultra-high performance car they are not 100% familiar with. It is simply this: never, ever, put your foot down hard in a car you are not totally familiar with, until you get a thorough briefing from someone who is.
I"ve driven a lot of high-performance cars over the years; some with TC/ESC, some without so much as ABS, or for that matter, even modern tires/ brakes,/suspension. The list includes Vettes, Porsches, and 3 Vipers, and the fourth Viper is on the way. I've driven every one of them hard (not recklessly, but hard). I track (not as often as I'd like), and autocross. I have yet to wreck any of them, Vipers included. I've spun, a few times, some deliberately, some not. So am I a really good driver? I don't think so; in fact, I'm sure there are a number of people right here on this board who have better skills (and given my age, better reflexes). Am I lucky? Possibly, but it's rare for anyone to be that lucky that long. So what's the secret? I know my limitations, and I stay focused and within them; when I shut the door, I leave my ego outside the car; and just as important, I make it a point to know what the car is prone to doing, not just in perfect conditions, but in cold temps, or on cold tires, or in the wet. If the salesman doesn't know (too many don't) I ask the tech. If the tech doesn't know, I ask someone with more seat time in the car; but the point is, I ask, until I find someone, preferably more than one someone, who has the answers. The practice has saved me from more than one unpleasant surprise, and it gives me a baseline for exploring how the car's limits and my limits interact.
The bottom line is this: You may be a better driver than I am. You did the right things, driving school, and so on; BUT, you didn't ask the right questions about the car. If you had, you would have( eventually) gotten something like the following (from a very good Viper tech, also an accomplished competitive driver): "Get this car warmed up, get some heat in the tires, before you get into the gas much, then, keep your inputs smooth. You can do it fast, but it has to be smooth. Don't **** it; squeeze the throttle, squeeze the brake; you can do it hard, but you have to squeeze it." That advice kept me out of trouble in my first Viper, and had you gotten something similar, we would not be having this particular discussion.
Janni
Enthusiast
If we could set that to music, I would nominate it for a Grammy.
ferraritoviper
Enthusiast
No misunderstanding...after driving the 360 for 5 years, I yearned for a return to some USA muscle. I leased the Viper (which I love knowing that it was a short term (3yrs) affair, awaiting the next gen F car. Nothing to do with my accident or ESC. As far as driving skills go, as stated before on this thread, I attended the 2003 3 day Ferrari factory driving school in Marenallo, Italy. I have also been driving (legally) for 48 years. Viper rookie yes...but (in general) lets not get too carried away with the cars mystique.
ferraritoviper
Enthusiast
True...but ESC definitely doesn't have a chance of working at all, if it is not a switchable choice on your ride. As for the "bottom line", I was warned several times in earnest on the ViperAlley board (had a snafu with VCA when joined and couldn't post for awhile), of everything you said and then some. Lets just say I had a severe brain cramp! "Once bitten, twice shy babe"(add to my signature?). It won't happen again. Thanks.
ViperGeorge
Enthusiast
No misunderstanding...after driving the 360 for 5 years, I yearned for a return to some USA muscle. I leased the Viper (which I love knowing that it was a short term (3yrs) affair, awaiting the next gen F car. Nothing to do with my accident or ESC. As far as driving skills go, as stated before on this thread, I attended the 2003 3 day Ferrari factory driving school in Marenallo, Italy. I have also been driving (legally) for 48 years. Viper rookie yes...but (in general) lets not get too carried away with the cars mystique.
I personally hate to see an existing Viper owner leave the fold. You have been a stand up guy in the way you've reported the facts around your accident and you have dealt with the critical (and in my opinion unjustified) posts in response to your accident in a courteous manner. The Viper nation needs more people like you not fewer.
I don't know if you have gotten actively involved with your regional VCA but my wife and I have had a great time and met some fantastic people over our 11 years of Viper ownership. We attend local events almost weekly and have been to four VOIs. The VCA experience (not fully represented by what you occasionally read here) is part of the reason that I see myself owning Vipers forever. Not withstanding this, Ferraris are definitely beautiful cars.
ferraritoviper
Enthusiast
Thanks...I'll be around for a few more years, and you never know...I may buy the Viper out at lease end. The Ferrari and Viper would make a great pairing...and the Viper is a much more durable/servicable ride, especially for longer hauls, not to mention its outrageously vicious and in your face looks....which nothing on the road compares with imo.
jcaspar1
Enthusiast
I think the problem was going from a car with 276ft-lbs of torque (F360) to one with 675ft-lbs. With less than 1/2 (probably 1/3 at lower rpms) the torque it seems it would be hard to get into trouble with the Ferrari accelerating in a straight line even without T/C, ESC, etc.
Chuck 98 RT/10
Enthusiast
All said and done, F2V shows remarkable diplomacy and honesty. 
The internet and auto-enthusiasts crowd could use more like him...as long as they're anti-nanny.
The internet and auto-enthusiasts crowd could use more like him...as long as they're anti-nanny. 
