shooter_t1
Has Left the Room!
Read my post again. The point is not that it's on or off, the point is that the Porsche engineers say you have better control of the car without the nannies. Zu verstehen?
Stability Control and my 2009 SRT crash
- Thread starter ferraritoviper
- Start date
Read my post again. The point is not that it's on or off, the point is that the Porsche engineers say you have better control of the car without the nannies. Zu verstehen?
eucharistos
Enthusiast
ferraritoviper
Enthusiast
Cop Magnet
Enthusiast
Um, everyone says that. No one thinks that cars handle better with TC.
We are talking about safety. That's what the TC is for. When you want to do spirited driving, like a power slide, or a day at the track, just shut it off.
Keeps the friends who "borrow" your car alive, and keeps cold tires from causing you trouble until you're ready in case you forget.
Yeah, it would be nice if the world were a perfect place and everyone took care of their own issues. But since there are obviously people on the road who don't, and others lives are at stake, this is what we are left with.
Here's a list of "nannies" you already live with and accept (off the top of my head). I suspect many complained about these and the people who wanted them back in the day, but have since gotten over them.
seat belts
electronic choke
electronic ignition
fuel injection
reverse lockout
ABS
ignition cut-off
clutch cut-off
headlamp warning chime
seatbelt warning chime
airbags
airbag passenger seat nanny-thingy
idiot lights
Sure, some of these are total annoyances and I could go on and on. The point is that you accept these and they do not necessarily take away from the joy of driving. If only the internet had been around in 1970, we could look up posts from the "same" people complaining about how only a "ninnie" would start the car without depressing the clutch pedal, how a "purist" knew how to operate a manual choke or tune a carb, and how people's individual freedoms were being diminished by mandatory seat belt laws.
It's all relative.
Chuck 98 RT/10
Enthusiast
Choke? Ignition? Injection? Airbags? Chimes and lights? Seriously, you have no clue of what a nanny is. Of that list only one, possibly two are nannies - ABS and arguably reverse lockout.
mercury51
Enthusiast
nail on the head
Cop Magnet
Enthusiast
I thought you were a purist. Against all intrusions.
Freedom, and all that.
So, enlighten...
johniew398
Enthusiast
I don't want traction control or other electronic enhancements on my ACR. I know it's dangerous and slightly bit me once in the 14 months I have had my 2008 ACR. I was showing a friend what it would do on an on ramp and power shifted from 1st to 2nd and sit it sideways but it was my fault.
But that's the way I like it - posi track and nothing else except ABS.
If I want a car that is almost perfectly controlled to keep me out of trouble then I drive my ZR1.
But that's the way I like it - posi track and nothing else except ABS.
If I want a car that is almost perfectly controlled to keep me out of trouble then I drive my ZR1.
Chuck 98 RT/10
Enthusiast
Nannies – driver assistance – devices that reduce driver skill requirements and equalize otherwise unequal drivers lending unskilled drivers a false sense of security that they eventually end up on wreckedexotics.com , blame cold tires rather than their poor judgment and come on here to convince everyone that the Viper is a dangerous car and should have a bunch of nannies otherwise everyone who drives a Viper will kill off the entire human race.
Cop Magnet
Enthusiast
Funny, I seem to recall you saying many times that you wish you had the money to buy a new ACR. Which, of course, means ABS. So you are willing to accept that "nanny" in tradeoff for the other performance gains. But others who are willing to accept certain tradeoffs -- also for significant gains -- are completely intolerable to you. Even if there were more potential buyers in that pool, and it would be a better business decision for the Viper brand.
That's interesting.
Chuck 98 RT/10
Enthusiast
Funny, I seem to recall you saying many times that you wish you had the money to buy a new ACR. Which, of course, means ABS. So you are willing to accept that "nanny" in tradeoff for the other performance gains. But others who are willing to accept certain tradeoffs -- also for significant gains -- are completely intolerable to you. Even if there were more potential buyers in that pool, and it would be a better business decision for the Viper brand.
That's interesting.
You're not even trying to understand. I have two GenII Vipers, neither of which I am willing to give up for an ACR. However, I am not naive enough to think my 10+ year old GTS can compete with a 640hp ACR-X which BTW is having it's own series this year.
Obviously you're not a tracker so the odds of you getting a grip are slim. Goodbye.
ViperGTS
Enthusiast
- Joined
- Jul 15, 2001
- Posts
- 5,016
- Reaction score
- 0
>>> the point is that the Porsche engineers say you have better control of the car without the nannies. Zu verstehen?<<<
Capito! Verstanden!
I am engineer myself and that's right. Having a computer with a [silly] software (sorry software guys!) in between drivers input and cars doing something cant be better control, because you have as a driver NO control. The computer is braking (and sometimes even steering) for you, overriding drivers input. But, the computer has NO clue about the outside world except some very limited sensors telling the computer a little bit about what's going on in the real world. Or in short: the virtual world in the computer will NEVER reflect the real world in a manner to work perfect. Not saying that every driver is perfect!
Capito! Verstanden!
I am engineer myself and that's right. Having a computer with a [silly] software (sorry software guys!) in between drivers input and cars doing something cant be better control, because you have as a driver NO control. The computer is braking (and sometimes even steering) for you, overriding drivers input. But, the computer has NO clue about the outside world except some very limited sensors telling the computer a little bit about what's going on in the real world. Or in short: the virtual world in the computer will NEVER reflect the real world in a manner to work perfect. Not saying that every driver is perfect!
Chuck 98 RT/10
Enthusiast
All that may be true but I wouldn't even go down that path. To a true driver and car guy it isn't about whether the driver can perform better than the computer, it's about a driver constantly working towards perfecting his own skill without the nannies. I don't know if I can outbrake a GenII ABS car or not, but the thrill of taking my non-ABS brakes right to the edge of lockup is as exciting as throwing a touchdown pass. Neither of which most of these pretendtobees have ever experienced.
Cop Magnet
Enthusiast
Chuck 98 RT/10
Enthusiast
Great pics, who's driving? Seriously, the desire to master a skill rather than have a computer do it for you isn't difficult to understand.
ferraritoviper
Enthusiast
Cop Magnet...you rule with posting class! As I've said before, there are none so blind as those who will not see.
Cop Magnet
Enthusiast
It is not difficult to understand and I do. The issue is not just fun and games, or even mastering your skills, but safety. A novice driver killling someone on the street so he can "master his skill" is unacceptable. You wouldn't want your pilot flying VFR in today's weather because he thought he could master it, and I don't want the guy in the lane next to me spinning out and killing my kid.
You've posted before that even a traction system you could turn off is unacceptable due to the costs. Why should you pay a few grand for a TC system you don't use? I'd call your attention to the NUMEROUS posters who have been through more than one Viper "snake bite" as part of their learning curve. If the average Viper owner really reflects (totally making this up), even 1.05 Vipers bought, the money you'd save on annual insurance alone would offset the one-time cost of TC. And the weight (with ABS) would be a few ounces or pounds at most.
On the street, with a WIDE range of driver levels, TC will save cars and save lives. I understand you don't need it, seriously, and I respect that. But your level of driving is not the same as the average.
And you don't have to use it if you don't want. So, as I have said before, I don't necessarily want it but I do not see the downside.
WILDASP
Enthusiast
Look guys, the next generation Viper will have the nanny controls; the federal government has already seen to that. The only question is whether we'll be able to turn them completely off or not. Those of you who want the things will presumably be happy, and assuming the car still has 600+ hp, that performance will now be more "accessible" to more drivers; so it's all good , except for us Neanderthal purists, right?
I'm not so sure about that. After all, the environment we are trying to make "safer" is the street, not the track. Now given that, and the fact that in America, we give a driver's license to anyone who meets the minimum age requirement and has a pulse, I think it's a fairly safe bet that the Viper, minus the current "fear factor", will now fall into the hands of even more incompetent wannabes who think they are the next _____________ (insert name of favorite professional race driver here). Well, you say, that already happens to some extent, and after all, the nannies will surely save these people from their own mistakes, right? Sure, it will save some of them, whose false confidence in their non-existent skills will then encourage them to take even more risks. These will keep pushing the envelope, feeling ten feet tall and bulletproof, until the laws of physics intervene, and they crash anyway. The difference is, that instead of crashing at 30 mph, they will crash at 90 mph instead. The ones who survive will, of course, blame the car, and here we go again.
That will be the end result of applying a clever solution to the wrong problem. The current problem is not the car, it's the drivers; drivers who haven't taken the time to acquire the necessary skills and judgment to handle a 600 hp car, drivers who think the public roads are racetracks, drivers who let ego overrule common sense. We don't need a "car upgrade", we need a "driver upgrade",and all any nanny computer can do is provide the illusion of the latter, thereby keeping ignorant drivers blissfully smug and secure in a cocoon of false confidence, right up until the limits are passed, and the underlying lack of skill and judgment culminates in another "Oh, S**t Moment" (that instant of blinding clarity when a driver realizes he has just run out of asphalt, traction, and ideas, all at once). At that point, the only remaining question is how many innocent people get taken out along with the fool who initiated the incident. I can hear the resulting cries now; "See, the car is dangerous!" "The nannies weren't adequate to prevent this; we need more and better nannies!" On and on, with the blame being placed everywhere except where it belongs.
You know, it's just an idle thought, but maybe, if we as a society ever get back to that quaint idea that people are responsible for their own actions, and we do not have some "right" to be protected from the consequences of our own poor decisions, we just might rediscover the fundamental truth that's been lost in all of this: you really can't fix stupid!
I'm not so sure about that. After all, the environment we are trying to make "safer" is the street, not the track. Now given that, and the fact that in America, we give a driver's license to anyone who meets the minimum age requirement and has a pulse, I think it's a fairly safe bet that the Viper, minus the current "fear factor", will now fall into the hands of even more incompetent wannabes who think they are the next _____________ (insert name of favorite professional race driver here). Well, you say, that already happens to some extent, and after all, the nannies will surely save these people from their own mistakes, right? Sure, it will save some of them, whose false confidence in their non-existent skills will then encourage them to take even more risks. These will keep pushing the envelope, feeling ten feet tall and bulletproof, until the laws of physics intervene, and they crash anyway. The difference is, that instead of crashing at 30 mph, they will crash at 90 mph instead. The ones who survive will, of course, blame the car, and here we go again.
That will be the end result of applying a clever solution to the wrong problem. The current problem is not the car, it's the drivers; drivers who haven't taken the time to acquire the necessary skills and judgment to handle a 600 hp car, drivers who think the public roads are racetracks, drivers who let ego overrule common sense. We don't need a "car upgrade", we need a "driver upgrade",and all any nanny computer can do is provide the illusion of the latter, thereby keeping ignorant drivers blissfully smug and secure in a cocoon of false confidence, right up until the limits are passed, and the underlying lack of skill and judgment culminates in another "Oh, S**t Moment" (that instant of blinding clarity when a driver realizes he has just run out of asphalt, traction, and ideas, all at once). At that point, the only remaining question is how many innocent people get taken out along with the fool who initiated the incident. I can hear the resulting cries now; "See, the car is dangerous!" "The nannies weren't adequate to prevent this; we need more and better nannies!" On and on, with the blame being placed everywhere except where it belongs.
You know, it's just an idle thought, but maybe, if we as a society ever get back to that quaint idea that people are responsible for their own actions, and we do not have some "right" to be protected from the consequences of our own poor decisions, we just might rediscover the fundamental truth that's been lost in all of this: you really can't fix stupid!
Cop Magnet
Enthusiast
I hate to say it, because I agree this is the number one problem in America, but it will never happen. You can't roll back the clock of irresponsibility and laziness. While the current Admin might bring this to a whole other level, it has been happening for years.
I agree with the rest of your post also, except for one observation. As performance cars have gone from 200 HP to 600 HP over the last 40 years, driver skills have stayed neutral (at best), roads are more crowded, people are multitasking, and life in general is more hectic. The car power vs driver skill issue alone represents a widely diverging set of curves. They will never intersect again, even though people like us and perhaps the Europeans try as best they might. It is a death curve.
You can argue about it all you want. But the global skill level will never rise because a few people here say "learn to drive". So you have to look for other solutions.
eucharistos
Enthusiast
your one to talk
you took that corner so fast the woman fell off your wing
Chuck 98 RT/10
Enthusiast
And there it is. Always prop the children as the sacrificial lambs.
First off, you are completely wrong if you think the nannies are gonna have any measurable difference regarding sports car fatalities. They do not and will not which is why wreckedexotics.com will never fall short of new pics. Those bad drivers you mention think they are invincible in a sports car and think they are even more invincible in a nanny equiped car. I've got first hand experience with one such driver, thankfully it was at Sebring. And yes, I've seen the stats but the stats lump sports cars in with minivans so they really aren't a fair representation.
Secondly, if you're so worried about the children let's just limit the HP of all cars to 200 and be done with it. After all, if we save just one child it's worth it right? There is no need for more than 200hp. Even I agree with that.
Seven children a year die playing baseball. Better do something about that too right? Let's use wiffle balls and no more sliding into the bases. We have to save those seven children, which is probably more than get run over by Vipers annually.
Cop Magnet
Enthusiast
I really wish that we could shoot criminals and fatally stupid people - but we can't. The natural selection of life (stupid people kill themselves) is being oudated and outlawed by our Government - and we're paying for it!
I do like the idea of Gov. medical (like TC and ESC) except that it seems that it works best for the crippled and unhealthy and against the healthy and fully functional now. Being expensive means that our health care is being utitilized to keep dying people alive and the healthy (need to be fixed are losing years of their life to the almost dead.
TC and ESC are catering to the stupid and unskilled. Unfortunately, the excellent and good drivers are the one's that mostly drive Vipers, hence the many "lent my car ... crash stories". So good drivers that don't need any nannies should be the ones to pay for them? Just so that ego-trippers and ordinary/bad drivers can drive our cars? I'd prefer that nature takes it's course and we learn or we die. Natural selection should be utilized.
Hope you guys don't take this too seriously as I posted with an attempt at humor not just trying to make a point.
The wife's 2008 Dodge Ram comes factory ESC equipped. No switch of button. Can't actually tell it is there. I bought a Diablo Predator tuner for the headers etc. The ESC program CAN be turned off with the Predator, but restart and the ESC restarts as well. The ESC cannot be removed from the truck's computer and cannot be turned off, except for temporarily. Another problem I have with the new vehicles is the "Black Box" function of the computers. Although not a law yet, I'm waiting for the day when it's required that you get you BlackBox downloaded at the police station each year and they write you tickets according to the computer's records. It may be a good thing that they can plug into a crashed car and read the last speed, brake application, throttle application etc. ... but as we're seeing with Toyota problems computers have a tendency to fail and cause crashes, not the other way around.
If I slide, underbrake, crash that's the fault of me, dust, mechanical breakdown or whatever. I'll adjust and not crash the next time. If my Prius (yuck) brakes don't work because of my nannies --- If I full throttle into the garage wall or a school yard because my car has "drive-by-wire" throttle ...- Imagine a Toyota computer (with ABS,TC and ESC)in our Vipers ... WOT at the track? WOT while parking in the garage. Instead of a 200hp vehicle without nannies that can fail (like Toyota or the old Bosche system that was recalled in the 80s) on our Vipers?
No thanks. And I don't want to pay an extra $10,000 for some nannies that I would never turn on.
Ted
I do like the idea of Gov. medical (like TC and ESC) except that it seems that it works best for the crippled and unhealthy and against the healthy and fully functional now. Being expensive means that our health care is being utitilized to keep dying people alive and the healthy (need to be fixed are losing years of their life to the almost dead.
TC and ESC are catering to the stupid and unskilled. Unfortunately, the excellent and good drivers are the one's that mostly drive Vipers, hence the many "lent my car ... crash stories". So good drivers that don't need any nannies should be the ones to pay for them? Just so that ego-trippers and ordinary/bad drivers can drive our cars? I'd prefer that nature takes it's course and we learn or we die. Natural selection should be utilized.
Hope you guys don't take this too seriously as I posted with an attempt at humor not just trying to make a point.
The wife's 2008 Dodge Ram comes factory ESC equipped. No switch of button. Can't actually tell it is there. I bought a Diablo Predator tuner for the headers etc. The ESC program CAN be turned off with the Predator, but restart and the ESC restarts as well. The ESC cannot be removed from the truck's computer and cannot be turned off, except for temporarily. Another problem I have with the new vehicles is the "Black Box" function of the computers. Although not a law yet, I'm waiting for the day when it's required that you get you BlackBox downloaded at the police station each year and they write you tickets according to the computer's records. It may be a good thing that they can plug into a crashed car and read the last speed, brake application, throttle application etc. ... but as we're seeing with Toyota problems computers have a tendency to fail and cause crashes, not the other way around.
If I slide, underbrake, crash that's the fault of me, dust, mechanical breakdown or whatever. I'll adjust and not crash the next time. If my Prius (yuck) brakes don't work because of my nannies --- If I full throttle into the garage wall or a school yard because my car has "drive-by-wire" throttle ...- Imagine a Toyota computer (with ABS,TC and ESC)in our Vipers ... WOT at the track? WOT while parking in the garage. Instead of a 200hp vehicle without nannies that can fail (like Toyota or the old Bosche system that was recalled in the 80s) on our Vipers?
No thanks. And I don't want to pay an extra $10,000 for some nannies that I would never turn on.
Ted
Chuck 98 RT/10
Enthusiast
Agreed. Unfortunately the only choice you'll have is not to buy a car at all, which amazingly is somehow reasonable to those who think the children are all dying because of our non-nanny Vipers.
shooter_t1
Has Left the Room!
As I have a couple of days off, I decided to take my snake out for a little test cruise today. Temp was 42 deg this morning. Went to a shut down car dealer's lot close to my place, chalked out a turn 1 1/2 lanes wide and tried to recreate the unsafe and lack of skill driving style that is causing all the hoopla in this thread. 1st off, the gen 4 is an amazing car!!!. I took turns at 30 mph, shifted to 2 (1/4 throttle) and viola...a little tire spin and keep going. Finally, at 45 mph, I got the car to start to spin out. Turn into the skid, feather the throttle...wow, I love this drivers car. Even tried 1/2 throttle shift, wheel cranked, car started to come around, hit the brakes, took my hands off of the steering wheel and screamed like a little girl (as this is what I really think happened), and....the car stopped within 20 feet facing the other way. No violent swapping from side to side or anything.
If you start sawing at the wheel like a wild person, with jerky throttle and clutch inputs, no amount of nannies will help you.
Ps: This car is leaps and bounds ahead of a gen 3...wow
If you start sawing at the wheel like a wild person, with jerky throttle and clutch inputs, no amount of nannies will help you.
Ps: This car is leaps and bounds ahead of a gen 3...wow
Cop Magnet
Enthusiast
Just because an aftermarket Racelogic full-blown TC costs $10,000 doesn't mean it would cost that much in a production car. No one believes your wife's Dodge Ram has a $10,000 ESC system, for instance.
Figure $1-2k when all is said and done.
If you want to lobby this issue, you would best spend all your (collective) time arguing for a switch, not for whether or not to have the system. It is coming.
And thanks for not posting another Stealth story. The Prius was much better.
WILDASP
Enthusiast
I understand that, Cop, but my point is, I'm afraid this particular solution will actually make things worse instead of better. I think we agree with have a lot of drivers on the road who are incompetent with 200 hp, let alone 600. I tell you what; let's look at this from a different angle, and see where T/C and/or ESC do the most good, and why.
We know ESC can be very helpful, with a typical driver in a minivan, a pickup, or an SUV. Why is that? Well, these vehicle types usually have a higher center of gravity than a typical sedan, much less a sports car. This makes them inherently more unstable, especially in everyday driving situations, where a driver may need to make a sudden evasive lane change, or a panic stop from highway speeds. Do that in one of these vehicles without ESC, and even the best driver will find that it gets unstable, sometimes to the point of approaching loss of control, even at perfectly acceptable, legal speeds. Now, factor in wet, icy, or uneven pavement, the typical distracted/inattentive driver, or just a little too much speed, and things get out of hand quickly. Does ESC help in that situation? Of course it does, and we all know it. There's no danger there of the presence of the electronic nanny encouraging anyone to take unnecessary risks, because it's fairly rare for anyone to attempt to drive such a vehicle way beyond practical and legal speeds; I don't notice too many people attempting to do burnouts, drift corners at high speed, or street racing, in minivans.
Now, take the typical family sedan. It's more stable, but hardly has race-car responsive handling. If Joe or Jane Schmuck has to make a sudden move to avoid a crash, ESC helps, as does ABS. Bear in mind, that Joe and Jane don't even know how (in most cases) to recover from a simple skid. Of course nannies help in most of those situations (again, at normal, legal speeds), because they're only being asked to provide a mild assist, not overturn the laws of physics., and once again, there's not so much danger of the safety net encouraging the typical driver to push way beyond his/her limits; except for the odd teenage daredevil showing off in dad's Camry. Anyone who knows which fuses to pull and has access to a skid pad can see the difference for himself; what the nannies do, is give a poor to average driver the recovery and control levels that would otherwise require a very good driver. So far, so good.
Now we come to the ultra-high performance sports car. I think that we can agree that driving something like a Viper, or even a Vette, is a "Look at me!" statement to begin with. On top of that, now the handling limits are much, much higher; even under fairly strenuous maneuvering, the car is stable and confidence inspiring, as is braking and acceleration. The car feels glued to the road, even at ridiculous speeds, in a way other vehicles simply do not. It's enough to make a novice feel like Michael Schumacher (which he definitely is NOT!) and now we have the beginnings of another problem; a driver as inattentive and low-skilled as he was before, but now, tremendously overconfident. That's before we add the electronic nannies. Without them, his minor bobbles (he will make some) turn into scary events, and sometimes, low-speed crashes. These, even the near-misses, have a tendency to bring Joe Schmuck back to reality in a hurry; having got a good fright, he either learns to respect the car, and gets some instruction in how to handle it properly, or (more likely), having soiled his drawers once, decides this is not the car for him, and goes back to driving something more in tune with his actual capabilities. Wait a minute, though; now, he doesn't have to make that choice; he can go out, buy an equally capable and powerful car, with the latest nanny tech, and those scary near-misses are a thing of the past. The nanny fixes all his minor mistakes for him, and he is king of the road once more, free to play and push the envelope to the limit, because (he thinks) the nannies have his back. All his old overconfidence is back, bigger and badder than before, as he sits behind the wheel of a car whose very nature says "Push me! Harder!" What made him feel a little safer in milder vehicles, now fills him with bravado. At this point, I don't think we're in Kansas, any more, Toto, and unless his increasing recklessness prompts the authorities to take his license first, he's an ultra-high speed crash waiting to happen. Numerous examples of the inevitable result can be found on the Vette forums, and wreckedexotics.com - the computer finally is overwhelmed by the laws of physics, and disaster ensues.
The point is, what was a worthwhile safety aid in other vehicles, becomes a further inducement to overconfidence and recklessness, when applied to a car which, driven in a normal and reasonable fashion, is so far below its limits that it doesn't need the extra help. It takes away the warning signs that should tell a novice, "You just pushed too far, too fast!" That's where the right technology, applied to the wrong kind of vehicle, can actually wind up doing more harm than good.
It's only human nature, to look for a one-size-fits-all solution to a problem; Hopefully, we can see by now that there isn't one, in the present case; so the next question is, where do we go from here? If we are going to continue to enjoy these ultra-high performance cars, we may need to agree that one needs additional qualifications beyond a standard drivers license, to operate them on on public roads. Don't scoff - we already do this for motorcycles, and certain commercial trucks, so why not? Why not require, say, a certificate of completion from an approved HP driving school (3 day course minimum) or a competition license from a recognized sanctioning body (SCCA, etc), to get the appropriate endorsement on one's drivers license. That would help, and is not unduly burdensome, in my opinion. I don't like more rules anymore than anyone else does, but if the alternative is not even being able to drive our cars to and from the track, might it not be worth it?
Copmagnet , do you understand this?
YES, finally someone brought this up!!!!
Time to have some fun:
You must be registered for see images
