Stability Control and my 2009 SRT crash

[Dom426h]

The Darwin Awards

Darwin Awards: Darwin Awards


The Darwin Awards salute the improvement of
the human genome by honoring those who
accidentally remove themselves from it...

You must be registered for see images

You must be registered for see images attach

You must be registered for see images

 

[Dom426h]

a few excerpts from this thread:
http://forums.viperclub.org/srt10-s...-why-no-electronic-stability-control-etc.html

There should be a sticky that informs all the noobs that asking this tired old question will get you banned for life.

Every few months this topic gets revisited. The standard is answer is as plum already mentioned. Most of us who own them love the fact that these cars come without it. Adding that feature would just drop the viper down a class.

This is blasphemy.

Guards?!!!!!!!!!! OFF WITH HIS HEAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

O' good, I just sharpened the axe! "By my troth, Milord"

 

[Dom426h]

Hey mods, how about deleting this pathetically repetitive thread already?

+1

its getting old. a 5-page thread about this just a few months ago. Now someone has to start it all over again as if we would change our minds

http://forums.viperclub.org/srt10-s...-why-no-electronic-stability-control-etc.html

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

Why not require, say, a certificate of completion from an approved HP driving school (3 day course minimum) or a competition license from a recognized sanctioning body (SCCA, etc), to get the appropriate endorsement on one's drivers license.

Excellent writeup Wildasp. More wordy than I typically read but well done.

I really agree with the certification. I've mentioned before about a special license and a separate catagory for sports cars. It just makes no sense for sports cars to be listed in the same category statistics as minivans, sedans and SUVs. In fact, it is outright stupid.

 

[Dom426h]

This remindes me of an unanswered question i had for our moderators:

http://forums.viperclub.org/board-s...rging-threads-why-dont-our-moderators-do.html

 

[Cop Magnet]

Excellent writeup Wildasp. More wordy than I typically read but well done.

I really agree with the certification. I've mentioned before about a special license and a separate catagory for sports cars. It just makes no sense for sports cars to be listed in the same category statistics as minivans, sedans and SUVs. In fact, it is outright stupid.

Good luck with getting that passed in the US. We've been arguing for 60+ years that we should have an Autobahn-like system, with ratings for cars and drivers that would allow different speed limits. It is not part of our culture, and major cultural shifts (like increasing the slide of personal responsibility) occur on a slippery slope in only one direction.

I agree with you, make no doubt about it. I just do not see your wishes for a better America ever happening.

And Dom, the "Darwin Awards", incidentally, are not really completely relevant. They do not apply to the OTHER people on the road around a guy who does not know how to drive a 600HP car. So while we may esaily say, "he deserved it" when some newbie totals his first Viper, it's a little harder to apply to the passenger and bystanders. What was their Darwinian mistake? You didn't post the "15 year old girl dies on Mulholland Drive" thread, although you posted so many others.

 

[PatentLaw]

Excellent writeup Wildasp. More wordy than I typically read but well done.

I really agree with the certification. I've mentioned before about a special license and a separate catagory for sports cars. It just makes no sense for sports cars to be listed in the same category statistics as minivans, sedans and SUVs. In fact, it is outright stupid.

Since minivans can go 120 mph, having a separate license or qualification or separating them out would make no sense. In fact, I would even state that controlling "non sports cars" at higher speeds takes greater driving talent. Most of us would agree with that. Unless people are going to put speed limiters on all vehicles (other than sports cars) having special driving rights for sports cars seems pointless. I would not advocate limiting the entire driving public to speeds below 65 mph if you don't have a sports car.

The only people who make qualifications on the relative safety of cars is, drumroll please.......

Insurance companies.

The insurance companies generally charge pretty good rates for sports cars, indicating to me that the drivers either don't drive the cars that much or the cars themselves do not get into accidents.

If insurance companies are willing to write up acceptable terms for everyone here and accept the risk of loss, then I would be willing to wager that the cars we drive today are fairly safe, if they have traction control or not.

That being said, as I have seen some of the most talented engineers design stability control systems, I am convinced that they are way safer than cars without such systems. Regardless of the bravado of "I drive at race tracks" or "I am a purist", you cannot outperform such systems on all weather conditions.

Remember, these are all purpose cars that are driven in the rain, snow and sleet, not only "track day" cars. If you want a "track only" car, Dodge just created one for you. You have to keep that in mind. Everyone does not live in Florida where the weather is warm and the roads are without potholes.

 

[CitySnake]

This remindes me of an unanswered question i had for our moderators:

http://forums.viperclub.org/board-s...rging-threads-why-dont-our-moderators-do.html

Now WE have some fault in this???

We can close a thread and leave a final post hyperlinking to another. Will that suffice?

 

[Dom426h]

cop, dont think im insensitive...

I completely understand your concern for your children as well as any other inocent bystanders. My wife works in an ER, i hear story after story. Last month they treated a family that got hit head on by a speeding driver that was passing in the oncoming lane. Daughter was Decapetated, Dad DEAD. Mom survived with a few scratches, the other THREE daughters that were home showed up at the hospital and had Everyone crying.

Maybe This kid in the BMW M3 thought he was invincible with all his nannies which led him to think he could....

Perhaps if he had no nannies, he would have lost control a long time ago at a LOWER speed and only hurt himself or caused a minor accident . BUT that didnt happen. The Nannies gave him a FALSE sence of security leading him to fly at 100+mph and destry a family?

Like i said, i completely understand your concern CopMagnet.
Do you understand mine?

 

[Dom426h]

Now WE have some fault in this???

haha, no not your fault... I just think that it would be benefical to consolidate threads with the Same Exact Topic so that the Hamster in a wheel effect dosnt happen. or the clasic
I understand that some discussions are evergoing(like this one), so why not atleast keep All the posts in ONE thread?

We can close a thread and leave a final post hyperlinking to another. Will that suffice?

In the future that could possibly work.
too late now though, we're already on page8

perhaps we can disscuss this in my thread?

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

Now WE have some fault in this???

We can close a thread and leave a final post hyperlinking to another. Will that suffice?

LOL. Of course it's your fault.

No, leave the thread open. You know what kind of ****storm closing threads cause. If somebody doesn't want to read it they don't have to. Passionate as we all are about our opinions we've kept the discussion fairly inoffensive. Even the aholes and pansies that want all those ***** nannies would agree with that.

 

[WILDASP]

Good luck with getting that passed in the US. We've been arguing for 60+ years that we should have an Autobahn-like system, with ratings for cars and drivers that would allow different speed limits. It is not part of our culture, and major cultural shifts (like increasing the slide of personal responsibility) occur on a slippery slope in only one direction.

With all due respect, a separate speed limit is not what I was proposing; the suggestion related to having a special license to drive a car that is above a particular horsepower/speed rating; anything with a rated top speed in excess of 170 mph and/or over 400 hp, just as an example. Why? Because it is in vehicles of that class that nanny controls do the least good and the most potential harm. As to your point in a later post, yes, a minivan can be driven at 120+, but it is far less common to see that, than a high performance vehicle being driven at 120+. I stand by the assertion that nanny tech is (a) more effective at lower speeds, and (b) that it serves as a further inducement to false confidence in high performance cars that tempt a novice (and sometimes a not-so-novice) driver enough as it is, and does so in a car more than powerful enough to overwhelm the computerized aid(s).

Understand that my point is, that in cars of a particular type, we have the perverse effect of what is supposed to be a "safety device" becoming instead an inducement to even more unsafe driving practices. The irony here, in a discussion which has all too often become a machismo or p***er measuring contest, is that I'm a former EMT/Paramedic who has seen more vehicular carnage than I care to remember; therefore I'm on the same side of highway safety as you are; it's just that we have entirely different ideas on how best to achieve that. In other words, if I honestly believed that T/C ESC would keep more drivers from killing themselves or others in these cars, I'd be all for it, regardless of whether I personally needed it or not, but the plain fact is, I believe it makes these cars less safe, not more safe, for reasons I have already outlined repeatedly.

 

[PatentLaw]

With all due respect, a separate speed limit is not what I was proposing; the suggestion related to having a special license to drive a car that is above a particular horsepower/speed rating; anything with a rated top speed in excess of 170 mph and/or over 400 hp, just as an example. Why? Because it is in vehicles of that class that nanny controls do the least good and the most potential harm. As to your point in a later post, yes, a minivan can be driven at 120+, but it is far less common to see that, than a high performance vehicle being driven at 120+. I stand by the assertion that nanny tech is (a) more effective at lower speeds, and (b) that it serves as a further inducement to false confidence in high performance cars that tempt a novice (and sometimes a not-so-novice) driver enough as it is, and does so in a car more than powerful enough to overwhelm the computerized aid(s).

Understand that my point is, that in cars of a particular type, we have the perverse effect of what is supposed to be a "safety device" becoming instead an inducement to even more unsafe driving practices. The irony here, in a discussion which has all too often become a machismo or p***er measuring contest, is that I'm a former EMT/Paramedic who has seen more vehicular carnage than I care to remember; therefore I'm on the same side of highway safety as you are; it's just that we have entirely different ideas on how best to achieve that.

No.....you are cool on that. I got your point. I think that it is the blue hairs that are causing the problems in general, regardless of the type of car.

Your point is very well described and I believe true on some points. You obviously will have some people who will rely on the tech features. I would propose, however, that it is less than you think. Although not nanny tech, and as described before, the advances of airbags could be analogous. People do not go out and have accidents to test out the airbags or much less rely on them. People don't go into power slides to test out the control systems of cars.......they just get into the accident.

The accidents mostly come from those that are thinking that they can control the car but in fact can't.

What I find funny is the fact that some people continue to talk of the advantages of the car being a "track car" but yet choose to drive the non track version. Even when they have their version of the car, they choose not to buy it. Then they want to dictate what everyone else can drive because they are so called "purists". Like everyone else is "unpure" or their opinion does not matter.

The fact is that the Viper has evolved over time. It did not even have real windows. It was not available in a Coupe form. There is no reason that the car should not further evolve. They make the Viper a second rate car through their unwillingness to change. The Viper was originally about top notch performance.

Don't believe me? See that Dodge advertisement for yourself from 1992....."fast and powerful"....it does not say "no nanny tech". In fact it mentions tubular space frames and powerful V10 engines. In other words.....technology that was not in other cars. The original purpose of the Viper was to be the top of the heap.......not an old technology heap.

Don't turn the car into something it was never intended to be. You want old tech? Try vintage racing.

You must be registered for see images attach

 

[Dom426h]

Then they want to dictate what everyone else can drive because they are so called "purists". Like everyone else is "unpure" or their opinion does not matter.

We only want to dictate, one car. The Viper.
The rest, go ahead, nanny em all you want, have fun

i prefer to look at it from this perspective:

Then instead of buying any one of dozens of cars that have all the gizmos to cover their butt they want to change the only purist car built today - the Viper, into a nanny car too.

W're not asking much here guys. Just ONE car thats all we want, ONE Pure Drivers car with No nannies. Why do yall insist on trying to ruin it
(i do realise that eventually you will win with the future federal mandate, AND the future Viper will likely still be an Awesome car)
But for now, Why cant you just be happy with a Vette/porsche/ferrari? They are all Very Nice Cars

Why?

 

[Dom426h]

What I find funny is the fact that some people continue to talk of the advantages of the car being a "track car" but yet choose to drive the non track version. Even when they have their version of the car, they choose not to buy it.

non-track version? who cares? all the ACR old and new ever was is a base viper with the typical brake&suspension upgrades that the track rats do themselves. Why trade up for the same thing?
Non-track version my A$$

Furthermore, you dont need to be a Trackrat to be able to enjoy a Purist Driver Car. Come for a ride with me and i'll show ya there is more to this thing than crusing up to the local dairyqueen

 

[PatentLaw]

I understand your points. I am no Dairy Queen driver.

Let me ask some questions then.....

In the near future, if the base Corvette surpasses the Viper in performance due to advanced technology such as stability control, and the Corvette is priced at 60k and the Viper higher, are you ok with that?

 

[Dom426h]

Your question is irrelivant considering the viper is "done" for now and who knows what the next design will be including whatever nannies are required. But i'll bite. Yes i Am ok with that, and frankly would expect your scenerio to be a reality NOW. GM has 10X+ the R&D on the Vette so one would expect it to be a better performing vehicle than the viper. Many currently argue that the vette is a better car for whatever reasons please them.

i'll always Love the Gen1/2 viper the most because of the car that it is.
Comparing performance to other vehicles (while very fun/amusing since the viper does it on a minimal R&D budjet) is not that important to me. I compete with myself. Even as a kid playing racing video games i always enjoyed the most doing time trials over and over to do the best that i could. Now 15yrs later im doing the same thing on the track with my viper Its like a dream come true. NO hi-tech GTR/vette/ferarri could ever take that away from me

understand my passion?

I completely understand for many people that it is always about the next best thing, there are ones that went from Gen1 to Gen2, to Gen3, To Challenger, to Gen4, To NissanGTR. They thrive on something that is completely diff from me.

 

[PatentLaw]

I understand your passion. That is great. You will no longer be a customer for Dodge or any other manufacturer as of 2012.

In fact, all the blustering by people is frankly foolish. Perhaps the collective members here should be more up on what is going on.

Such "nannies" are REQUIRED by the Federal Government. You will not be able to purchase a car without one. See the below Final Rule Making by NHTSA.

http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/staticfiles/DOT/NHTSA/Rulemaking/Rules/Associated Files/ESC_FR_03_2007.pdf

The only way out of it is if an exception is granted or the manufacturer can be defined as a small manufacturer. Perhaps a separate "Viper" brand that is very small and fits through the cracks? (A free idea provided to Dodge/Viper management). Without that, prepare for your worst fears.......

The basis of the Viper is performance not the "less is more" theory. It would be a shame to let such a great vehicle not be produced because so called "purists" don't like a few extra circuits costing a few hundred dollars be incorporated into the car. Change happens.....accept it. Don't shoot the messenger.



Oh.....and one more thing.....it was passed during George Bush's administration. Credit where credit is due.

 

[WILDASP]

I understand your points. I am no Dairy Queen driver.

Let me ask some questions then.....

In the near future, if the base Corvette surpasses the Viper in performance due to advanced technology such as stability control, and the Corvette is priced at 60k and the Viper higher, are you ok with that?

I'll take that one. Unless the next generation Viper has a dramatic reduction in power, or Government Motors manages to get ZR-1 power out of the base Vette, that's not even a possibility. Let's try a more realistic comparison: 2006 Gen III Viper Coupe, vs. 2006 Z-06 Vette (I owned both and drove both so I can compare the two with the same driver; the horsepower is close to even, Vette has T/C and ESC, and a better stock rear gear ratio; sticker differential was about 20k.) I think that would meet your parameters; if T/C and ESC really make for better performance, the Vette should be the clear winner, on paper.

Now, here's what I found in the real world: On the street, one performs about as well as the other. Viper steering is a bit more accurate, ride (on runflats) is slightly harsher in the Viper, Viper seats much more supportive than Vette seats, Vette ESC is not intrusive. Overall, street performance is a virtual tie; Viper gets far more looks. Drag racing, the Vette is marginally easier to launch, but not by much; 0-60 and 1/4 mile times are close enough to make it a driver's race with average drivers in each. Overall slight advantage Vette (borne out by most subsequent experience among a variety of drivers). Autocross, Viper's superior braking begins to tell; without practice, it's easier to get the Vette off corners (in recommended mode which is T/C off, ESC partially engaged). With practice, however, it's easier to steer the rear in the Viper, and eventually my times in the Viper are consistently better than in the Vette. Both cars can and will spin with clumsy/abrupt throttle/steering inputs. Advantage, Viper. Road course, here is where the Viper belongs. Sticks like glue in corners; some push, mostly taken car of with air pressure adjustment in the fronts. Handling is stable and predictable; can out brake the Vette on corner entry every time. Vette feels better coming off corners at first, but when pushed a bit more, feels nervous and a little tail happy, with or without ESC. Overall feel of the Vette is less predictable, and how the heck did Magnussen drive the Ring on these tires? Even warmed up, they feel greasy. At a smooth 85-90% (my personal limit), Viper inspires confidence....Vette inspires me to leave ESC turned on, in case it gets too squirrelly. Bottom line: the vette spends most of its time with me on the street (it IS a good daily driver). Viper ends up being my track day and autocross car. Side note: I see a distressing number of crashes and near-crashes reported on the Vette forums, in which the ESC apparently failed to catch the car after sudden inputs; this squares with my own informal parking lot tests, in which I find it quite possible to spin the rear out with abrupt heavy throttle; sudden demand on a 500hp engine is more than the computer can handle, it seems.

So for me, the Viper is the better answer. I have not bought another Vette, but I sure did buy a Gen IV Viper, which is, in my limited experience so far, a quantum leap forward from both the Gen III Snake and the Z-06. Ride and handling are better (at least at normal speeds); it feels utterly composed, handling the back roads out my way like a fine road car; I can't wait for warmer weather to see what it can do on the track. Do I feel safe in it, even without ESC? Absolutely! Provided I do my part, I know exactly what the Viper will and won't do. Worth the money? In my opinion, definitely!

You did ask......

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

Since minivans can go 120 mph, having a separate license or qualification or separating them out would make no sense.

But the mentallity of the minivan driver doesn't do 120mph. That is what we are talking about here.

If you want a "track only" car, Dodge just created one for you.

I have a track only car, and a street car. Is it asking too much to enjoy the same nannylessness in my street Viper as in my tracker? I promise I won't run over the children.

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

I understand your passion. That is great. You will no longer be a customer for Dodge or any other manufacturer as of 2012.

In fact, all the blustering by people is frankly foolish. Perhaps the collective members here should be more up on what is going on.

Such "nannies" are REQUIRED by the Federal Government. You will not be able to purchase a car without one. See the below Final Rule Making by NHTSA.

http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/staticfiles/DOT/NHTSA/Rulemaking/Rules/Associated Files/ESC_FR_03_2007.pdf

The only way out of it is if an exception is granted or the manufacturer can be defined as a small manufacturer. Perhaps a separate "Viper" brand that is very small and fits through the cracks? (A free idea provided to Dodge/Viper management). Without that, prepare for your worst fears.......

Lawyers put the law into place. Any lawyers wanna step up to the plate and take it out so manufacturers can have a little freedom? Or at least raise the limit of what the government considers small from 100 cars to 2000 (your free idea was already suggested by yours truly, but feel free to take it to Washington for us).

 

[RTTTTed]

I hate driving my Viper at a sedate 80mph in a 70mph zone and getting passed by Dodge Ram pickups and Minivans (with kids) going 90-120mph. I think that nearly all of us respect the money spent on a Viper and treat it with respect. Minivans and pickups going high speeds is insane. They have nannies. Safer? I would have chosen larger brakes, like I installed on my GTS as a safety feature. Definitely much better stopping.

Not sure of the stopping distance of a loaded Minvan, but I know the ESC, TC pickups that come with large wheels, stiffer suspension and large brakes still need more than 150' to stop from 60mph whereas the Viper stops in less than 100'. Which car is safer?

As far as safety goes (little kids) would you prefer that Vipers, SRT8s and vetttes got the best brakes or wouldn't you prefer that Minivans got those massive tires, suspension and brakes?

I do feel that police should concentrate on extreme stupid drivers and that should include 120mph minivans and pickups. Here in BC we have a law to protect our children that if YOU smoke in the car with anyone 16 or younger you get a $430 fine. New laws for using any handheld devices detracting from the driver's attention cost $130. Why not pass an intelligent law requiring huge tires and brakes with a stiff suspension instead of nannies? Anyone think that nannies decrease the stopping distance?

Why not have special laws for Minvans and pickups since their danger increases at an extreme rate and the purpose of most Minivans is for carrying children or passengers.

Busch should have passed a Big Brake law - that would have saved lives! Even the lives of idiots that only think they can drive.

Obviously this thread is a lot of fun, there are so many opinions on it.

As is obvious some of us prefer the older cars and some prefer the newer cars. Some of us prefer the older cars with more features than the newer cars come with (custom builds). Although some are happy with the 450bhp Gen 2s others are happy with the 600bhp Gen 4s. A few of us are happy with much more power than that. Stock and modified we all have our own opinions. Ain't life grand?

 

[RTTTTed]

The Western Canada VCA has been invited to a Targa Road Rally called a Bambina this spring. Tarmac and a 1 day rally. Various classes all street legal and insured cars only. Insured and rallying on closed public roads! Silver State Road Rally! Isn't this why we bought these cars? Isn't this what they were built for?

We're gonna have a blast! JANUARY 2010 - NEWSLETTER | targa-canada-west-event-newsletter | news

Ted

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

Not sure of the stopping distance of a loaded Minvan, but I know the ESC, TC pickups that come with large wheels, stiffer suspension and large brakes still need more than 150' to stop from 60mph whereas the Viper stops in less than 100'. Which car is safer?

That fact reveals the inconsistency of society doesn't it? So many folks scream for ABS for safety and save the children yet both my non-ABS Vipers will stop quicker than any minivan or SUV...and which will be carrying the children?

 

[PatentLaw]

Lawyers put the law into place. Any lawyers wanna step up to the plate and take it out so manufacturers can have a little freedom? Or at least raise the limit of what the government considers small from 100 cars to 2000 (your free idea was already suggested by yours truly, but feel free to take it to Washington for us).

Signed off by Bush, a non-lawyer.

Guess you won't be buying any Vipers anymore after 2012. Stick to your guns Chuck. Oh, by the way, don't try to glom off on the lawyers for free work to try to get your way. If you want it, then you do it. I am sure your powers to get anything done are better than everyone else here anyway.

Some how, I don't think that will happen. Enjoy the future.

Even Hyundai's will have the features. The Viper technologically inferior to the basest car. Great ideas. Keep them coming. All because you don't want a couple of circuits in the car.

Let the silly debate continue. 2012 is right around the corner. Just don't laud any future Viper that has the technology. That would be selling out.

 

[PatentLaw]

I'll take that one. Unless the next generation Viper has a dramatic reduction in power, or Government Motors manages to get ZR-1 power out of the base Vette, that's not even a possibility. Let's try a more realistic comparison: 2006 Gen III Viper Coupe, vs. 2006 Z-06 Vette (I owned both and drove both so I can compare the two with the same driver; the horsepower is close to even, Vette has T/C and ESC, and a better stock rear gear ratio; sticker differential was about 20k.) I think that would meet your parameters; if T/C and ESC really make for better performance, the Vette should be the clear winner, on paper.

Now, here's what I found in the real world: On the street, one performs about as well as the other. Viper steering is a bit more accurate, ride (on runflats) is slightly harsher in the Viper, Viper seats much more supportive than Vette seats, Vette ESC is not intrusive. Overall, street performance is a virtual tie; Viper gets far more looks. Drag racing, the Vette is marginally easier to launch, but not by much; 0-60 and 1/4 mile times are close enough to make it a driver's race with average drivers in each. Overall slight advantage Vette (borne out by most subsequent experience among a variety of drivers). Autocross, Viper's superior braking begins to tell; without practice, it's easier to get the Vette off corners (in recommended mode which is T/C off, ESC partially engaged). With practice, however, it's easier to steer the rear in the Viper, and eventually my times in the Viper are consistently better than in the Vette. Both cars can and will spin with clumsy/abrupt throttle/steering inputs. Advantage, Viper. Road course, here is where the Viper belongs. Sticks like glue in corners; some push, mostly taken car of with air pressure adjustment in the fronts. Handling is stable and predictable; can out brake the Vette on corner entry every time. Vette feels better coming off corners at first, but when pushed a bit more, feels nervous and a little tail happy, with or without ESC. Overall feel of the Vette is less predictable, and how the heck did Magnussen drive the Ring on these tires? Even warmed up, they feel greasy. At a smooth 85-90% (my personal limit), Viper inspires confidence....Vette inspires me to leave ESC turned on, in case it gets too squirrelly. Bottom line: the vette spends most of its time with me on the street (it IS a good daily driver). Viper ends up being my track day and autocross car. Side note: I see a distressing number of crashes and near-crashes reported on the Vette forums, in which the ESC apparently failed to catch the car after sudden inputs; this squares with my own informal parking lot tests, in which I find it quite possible to spin the rear out with abrupt heavy throttle; sudden demand on a 500hp engine is more than the computer can handle, it seems.

So for me, the Viper is the better answer. I have not bought another Vette, but I sure did buy a Gen IV Viper, which is, in my limited experience so far, a quantum leap forward from both the Gen III Snake and the Z-06. Ride and handling are better (at least at normal speeds); it feels utterly composed, handling the back roads out my way like a fine road car; I can't wait for warmer weather to see what it can do on the track. Do I feel safe in it, even without ESC? Absolutely! Provided I do my part, I know exactly what the Viper will and won't do. Worth the money? In my opinion, definitely!

You did ask......

A well written response. The only flaw in the above is that I do not believe it holds up under all types of weather conditions. In the wet and snow ESC has advantages that the average driver ( and even above average driver) just cannot compete with. When you look at all driving conditions, the results are different.

Driver reaction times are generally .7 to 1 second. Sorry, but a computer, when properly calibrated, reacts way faster.

If you are driving in just fair weather, then the above is true for you. Designers for cars have to think about all different weather conditions.

 

[Janni]

Ugh.

One ad touting the frame (really - full frame is OLD tech) and the V10 does NOT mean that Viper was supposed to be a technological innovator.

From personal and in depth discussions with SRT and the old (as in "former", not age old - ha ha) Team Viper - the Viper was designed to be a bold, back to basics sports car. it was NOT designed "for the masses".

Executives borrowed them for the weekend and wrecked them. Interns picked them up FOR the execs and they wrecked them. And still - the car was not nannified.

The Gen 4 highway driving report came back that it was "way easier to break traction in 3rd gear / highway speeds" and instead of saying "Oh my God - let's slap some TC on this puppy", I believe that Herb said one word.








"Cool."



And I have to tell ya - the car is simply not "hard" to drive, nor is it dangerous. It requires a more active driving engagement than any other car on the road. I LOVE that about the car. It begs you to pay attention and use your skill. And it rewards you.

Even the ABS was more a matter of being able to get dynamic proportioning and really utilize those rear tires for stopping power instead of relying so heavily on the fronts than it was the real ABS part. (Which, by the way - is the real key to better stopping - not just being able to go into a corner and stand on the brakes and have the car bail your sorry butt out...)

I want the car to continue to challenge me. Increased nannification will have us all drinking lattes and yacking on cell phones because they've idiot proofed the Viper. Well - no thanks.

I am not exactly a Grandma in the car and as long as you don't stab and **** things - it's not really that easy to get unbalanced. It's an amazing handling car. Just listen to the feedback and don't drive like a spaz.

 

[eucharistos]

i love it when janni talks like this

 

[CitySnake]

LOL Janni said "spaz".

 

[PatentLaw]

Janni,

I respect your post. Some great insight there. I would respectfully submit to you, however, that the car has changed along the history of the vehicle. As new requirements were put on the industry, the Dodge engineers tackled the task.

New federal requirements for any car will similarly be placed on the new Viper. I am sure that the folks at Dodge (or some other entity) will similarly tackle the problems and put out a great product. Most likely it will have the nannies.

The vast majority of the advertising I have seen on the vehicle has been "performance" related. Wild looks, great performance. I would state that it will be the only constant in Viper evolution.

PS....It is hard to sell a vehicle to prospective buyers when you say....."We know the competition has better technology, but we are not going to upgrade it anyway." That is why performance has been the cornerstone of the Viper. Regulations have made nanny discussions moot.

As for the original poster, I am not going to complain about his driving skills. I wish him well and back into a new to him Viper soon. Takes a big person to admit the accident. He started (continued) a great discussion. Why people degrade him cheapens the club in my opinion.