Stability Control and my 2009 SRT crash

[WILDASP]

A well written response. The only flaw in the above is that I do not believe it holds up under all types of weather conditions. In the wet and snow ESC has advantages that the average driver ( and even above average driver) just cannot compete with. When you look at all driving conditions, the results are different.

Driver reaction times are generally .7 to 1 second. Sorry, but a computer, when properly calibrated, reacts way faster.

If you are driving in just fair weather, then the above is true for you. Designers for cars have to think about all different weather conditions.

Patent,
It's interesting that you brought this up. Actually, we normally get quite a bit of rain here in SC; it's not a dry climate, especially in summer, where the odds of getting caught in sudden pop-up showers and thunderstorms are high. As a result, I had considerable experience driving in rain in both the Vette and the Viper, thus, with T/C & ESC, and without. To be honest, I never noticed any real difference, nor did the light on the Vette instrument panel; which indicates ESC activation come on (i.e. nothing happened to trigger it, which is in keeping with my previous observation that if that indicator DOES come on, it means the driver screwed up). In fairness, some of this may have been tire-related; I did not find either the Michelin runflats , or the Goodyears on the Vette, to be particularly good rain tires, and adjusted my driving accordingly.

Of course the other thing to remember. is that in rain heavy enough to put standing water on the pavement, the primary risk is hydroplaning; and in that particular circumstance, ESC won't help, because it has no traction at all to work with. You can verify this for yourself on a wet skid pad using slicks-once the water is between the contact patch and the road, there is nothing the ESC (or you) can do, until you hit a patch dry enough for tread contact with the road surface to be regained. So, if there's standing water, the only reasonable thing to do is ....slow down. We obviously don't get much snow/ice here, but I would think the same applies to those conditions, as well as the caveat that our usual performance tires are not rated for temperatures that low, and those conditions require winter-rated tires, per manufacturer recommendations.

I think you are making an assumption here, that the latest technology is always better. One could certainly argue that theoretically, it should be; but in the real world, that depends on the interaction between the technology, and the driver. For instance, an indication that ESC has been triggered, could be a learning tool, if the driver got from it the message,"What you just did upset the car; don't do that again!" What usually happens instead, is that the driver, having not felt anything out of the ordinary, assumes that everything he just did must have been OK; in which case he not only learns nothing from the error but is encouraged to repeat it, until he does feel something amiss (at which point, of course, he has overwhelmed the computer, and now lost control). Note that in this scenario, the technology itself did not fail; but the driver misused it. Unfortunately, that's all too common, and that is the crux of my argument.

 

[PatentLaw]

Patent,
It's interesting that you brought this up. Actually, we normally get quite a bit of rain here in SC; it's not a dry climate, especially in summer, where the odds of getting caught in sudden pop-up showers and thunderstorms are high. As a result, I had considerable experience driving in rain in both the Vette and the Viper, thus, with T/C & ESC, and without. To be honest, I never noticed any real difference, nor did the light on the Vette instrument panel; which indicates ESC activation come on (i.e. nothing happened to trigger it, which is in keeping with my previous observation that if that indicator DOES come on, it means the driver screwed up). In fairness, some of this may have been tire-related; I did not find either the Michelin runflats , or the Goodyears on the Vette, to be particularly good rain tires, and adjusted my driving accordingly.

Of course the other thing to remember. is that in rain heavy enough to put standing water on the pavement, the primary risk is hydroplaning; and in that particular circumstance, ESC won't help, because it has no traction at all to work with. You can verify this for yourself on a wet skid pad using slicks-once the water is between the contact patch and the road, there is nothing the ESC (or you) can do, until you hit a patch dry enough for tread contact with the road surface to be regained. So, if there's standing water, the only reasonable thing to do is ....slow down. We obviously don't get much snow/ice here, but I would think the same applies to those conditions, as well as the caveat that our usual performance tires are not rated for temperatures that low, and those conditions require winter-rated tires, per manufacturer recommendations.

I think you are making an assumption here, that the latest technology is always better. One could certainly argue that theoretically, it should be; but in the real world, that depends on the interaction between the technology, and the driver. For instance, an indication that ESC has been triggered, could be a learning tool, if the driver got from it the message,"What you just did upset the car; don't do that again!" What usually happens instead, is that the driver, having not felt anything out of the ordinary, assumes that everything he just did must have been OK; in which case he not only learns nothing from the error but is encouraged to repeat it, until he does feel something amiss (at which point, of course, he has overwhelmed the computer, and now lost control). Note that in this scenario, the technology itself did not fail; but the driver misused it. Unfortunately, that's all too common, and that is the crux of my argument.

Your points are well put. People using technology inappropriately can have significant negative impacts. Great point.

You can never idiot proof a car.

You are also correct on the "latest" is not the best technology. I can tell you that from personal experience. Often times, when people say they invented something new, that idea has been around for a very long time. Also, Toyota may have the latest technology, but that does not mean it will work well.

 

[Rapid Transit]

As I have a couple of days off, I decided to take my snake out for a little test cruise today. Temp was 42 deg this morning. Went to a shut down car dealer's lot close to my place, chalked out a turn 1 1/2 lanes wide and tried to recreate the unsafe and lack of skill driving style that is causing all the hoopla in this thread. 1st off, the gen 4 is an amazing car!!!. I took turns at 30 mph, shifted to 2 (1/4 throttle) and viola...a little tire spin and keep going. Finally, at 45 mph, I got the car to start to spin out. Turn into the skid, feather the throttle...wow, I love this drivers car. Even tried 1/2 throttle shift, wheel cranked, car started to come around, hit the brakes, took my hands off of the steering wheel and screamed like a little girl (as this is what I really think happened), and....the car stopped within 20 feet facing the other way. No violent swapping from side to side or anything.

If you start sawing at the wheel like a wild person, with jerky throttle and clutch inputs, no amount of nannies will help you.



Ps: This car is leaps and bounds ahead of a gen 3...wow

Is this "legal", i.e. will the cops give you a hard time, even a ticket? Sometimes I want to practice some techniques, at low speed, but I didn't want some cops cruising by and see some car slipping, sliding, spinning all over the parking lot.

 

[RTTTTed]

There's a couple posts on this thread that laud "new technology" as if it's a good thing.

Some new tech (Blue tooth) is great, and if it breaks down it's not a big deal. Speed cameras are unbelievably expensive because they're not made in China yet. Probably takes a million tickets just to pay for the camera. I replaced my 12 year old bigscreen projection TV last month. They said that Plasmas are not so great because of the screen remembering previous displays, so I buy the newer tech -LCD, it's sharper but the picture is really jerky (expecially facial movements and speaking). Although the screen is 16/9 it seems that's not a widescreen and I have to choose chop off the top and bottom or shrink the pic so that I have blackouts on top and bottom.

My new Vista computer refuses to run my Vec2 software. I bought a Sapphire Acer 'puter to match my car, but I have to use my antique XP to tune my car! One VCA member PM'd me that he owns a computer store and he refuses to sell any Vista.

Just because it's new, doesn't mean it's better. Otherwise the Nanniest car on the planet GTR would be nearly ten seconds faster at the Nuremberg Ring and not cancel warranties if the "Black Box" records that you used the 'R' button.

Ted

 

[RTTTTed]

Is this "legal", i.e. will the cops give you a hard time, even a ticket? Sometimes I want to practice some techniques, at low speed, but I didn't want some cops cruising by and see some car slipping, sliding, spinning all over the parking lot.

Of course it's illegal. The laws are written so that noise, smoke, spining tires, sliding,and other 'fun'/lack of control demonstartions have many laws against them. Could be "Stunting" in Alberta or Undue Care and Attention in BC and everyhwere makes up their own wording and titles.

Most newer laws are beocming ambiguous and allow the Police to decide whatever he wants. Some laws require "making certain that the offense will not be continued" gives the Police officer the power to seize your car (as they do with impaired charges) or even put you in jail. Private and Mall parking lots could be considered trespassing, "Public Mischief" or "/willful Damage. It's all up to the cop. Most cops (depending on circumstances) would contemplate that you're tryiong to improve your driving/safety skills and if they believe you they'd probaly tell you just to go away.

Ted

 

[PatentLaw]

Of course it's illegal. The laws are written so that noise, smoke, spining tires, sliding,and other 'fun'/lack of control demonstartions have many laws against them. Could be "Stunting" in Alberta or Undue Care and Attention in BC and everyhwere makes up their own wording and titles.

Most newer laws are beocming ambiguous and allow the Police to decide whatever he wants. Some laws require "making certain that the offense will not be continued" gives the Police officer the power to seize your car (as they do with impaired charges) or even put you in jail. Private and Mall parking lots could be considered trespassing, "Public Mischief" or "/willful Damage. It's all up to the cop. Most cops (depending on circumstances) would contemplate that you're tryiong to improve your driving/safety skills and if they believe you they'd probaly tell you just to go away.

Ted

I think it matters on your jurisdiction. Many times, as in New Jersey, the police will not respond onto private property unless requested. They have too many other things to do.

For example, if you get into an accident in a parking lot, many times the local police will do nothing about it and not write up any tickets or reports. Not good for you or your insurance carrier.

 

[FastestBusaAround]

That fact reveals the inconsistency of society doesn't it? So many folks scream for ABS for safety and save the children yet both my non-ABS Vipers will stop quicker than any minivan or SUV...and which will be carrying the children?

That statement should be qualified. To panic stop on wet pavement or worse, wet pavement in a turn, better than a "nanny" equipped vehicle - takes a skilled driver. Just because one owns a Viper, doesn't automatically mean that that person is that skilled driver. ABS isn't proven to be better at stopping under normal conditions over a NON-ABS car for most, but rather under severe conditions is where ABS shines more often than not. It can benefit everyone under those less than ideal conditions. Not everyone who buys a Viper is a race car driver. Believe it or not, some people buy the car to drive in the streets on a Sunday afternoon. It doesn't mean that they should be obligated to take a racing proficiency course to enable them to drive a Viper.

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

It doesn't mean that they should be obligated to take a racing proficiency course to enable them to drive a Viper.

Why not? Go back a couple pages, the suggestion is made and I don't necessarily disagree with it.

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

Ugh.

One ad touting the frame (really - full frame is OLD tech) and the V10 does NOT mean that Viper was supposed to be a technological innovator.

From personal and in depth discussions with SRT and the old (as in "former", not age old - ha ha) Team Viper - the Viper was designed to be a bold, back to basics sports car. it was NOT designed "for the masses".

Executives borrowed them for the weekend and wrecked them. Interns picked them up FOR the execs and they wrecked them. And still - the car was not nannified.

The Gen 4 highway driving report came back that it was "way easier to break traction in 3rd gear / highway speeds" and instead of saying "Oh my God - let's slap some TC on this puppy", I believe that Herb said one word.








"Cool."



And I have to tell ya - the car is simply not "hard" to drive, nor is it dangerous. It requires a more active driving engagement than any other car on the road. I LOVE that about the car. It begs you to pay attention and use your skill. And it rewards you.

Even the ABS was more a matter of being able to get dynamic proportioning and really utilize those rear tires for stopping power instead of relying so heavily on the fronts than it was the real ABS part. (Which, by the way - is the real key to better stopping - not just being able to go into a corner and stand on the brakes and have the car bail your sorry butt out...)

I want the car to continue to challenge me. Increased nannification will have us all drinking lattes and yacking on cell phones because they've idiot proofed the Viper. Well - no thanks.

I am not exactly a Grandma in the car and as long as you don't stab and **** things - it's not really that easy to get unbalanced. It's an amazing handling car. Just listen to the feedback and don't drive like a spaz.

Janni, you are the absolute very best at putting it into words. Let's go to Washington DC and kick some political *** so we can have our Vipers back.

 

[WILDASP]

If we can get back to the ESC and T/C thing for a moment, I'm beginning to think that the main problem is that the average driver (and even some dedicated gearheads) have a rather poor understanding of what it will and will not do. I wonder if this technology, like a lot of other new technologies, hasn't been a bit over-sold, over-hyped, and over-advertised by manufacturers and regulators alike. As I said earlier, it's certainly of great benefit in certain applications (especially vehicles with a high center of gravity, which have always had inherent stability problems, especially in less competent hands); I wonder if that success, and the resulting advertising puffery, has not convinced a lot of people that they can render every vehicle idiot proof. In one classic example, I can remember, when the C-6 Z-06 Vette came out, seeing one individual on a Vette forum state (in complete seriousness), that he was completely unconcerned with making the transition from the previous version (with 100 hp less), "because the ESC won't let me spin it anyway." I was not surprised to hear, a couple months later, that he had crashed his brand new Z-06, an event for which he insisted a malfunctioning ESC was responsible. Further conversation revealed that he had gone into a relatively slow corner, on cold tires, on a 35 degree morning, and attempted to accelerate out of it....hard. When the nanny box failed to put an immediate halt to the resulting slide, he overcorrected, AND stabbed the brake pedal, thus driving right off the inside of the turn. When the series of errors that led to this were pointed out to him, his indignant response was that this was precisely what he thought the ESC was designed to save him from! I did not bother to ask, given the foregoing revelation of both his knowledge and skill level, how he had managed to survive owning and driving (by his account) two 400+hp cars before this incident, but I have to admit, I found it almost miraculous. I expect to hear more such tales of woe, when the nannies become standard (by regulatory fiat) on the next generation Viper. People in this "protect me from myself" society seem to hear what they want to hear, I suppose; but do you suppose we could have just a bit more education, mixed in with all the promises?

 

[shooter_t1]

Is this "legal", i.e. will the cops give you a hard time, even a ticket? Sometimes I want to practice some techniques, at low speed, but I didn't want some cops cruising by and see some car slipping, sliding, spinning all over the parking lot.

The deputy that patrols my sub division happened to cruise by as I was warming the engine in my driveway. I told him about this discussion and what I planned to do. He came and watched for a couple of minutes, gave a thumbs up, and went on his way.

 

[RTTTTed]

That statement should be qualified. To panic stop on wet pavement or worse, wet pavement in a turn, better than a "nanny" equipped vehicle - takes a skilled driver. Just because one owns a Viper, doesn't automatically mean that that person is that skilled driver. ABS isn't proven to be better at stopping under normal conditions over a NON-ABS car for most, but rather under severe conditions is where ABS shines more often than not. It can benefit everyone under those less than ideal conditions. Not everyone who buys a Viper is a race car driver. Believe it or not, some people buy the car to drive in the streets on a Sunday afternoon. It doesn't mean that they should be obligated to take a racing proficiency course to enable them to drive a Viper.

"You can lead a Horse to water" etc.

It's decent of Chrysler to DONATE a pre-paid HPDE course to every new Viper owner. Can't ask more than that. The people that don't want to improve their skills and utilize that should buy a vette, or perhaps leave the car stock and not add any more power as the Gen 4 is more than most people can handle. Perhaps the Government would be bette off requiring Vipers to come out with only 450hp until the HPDE and/or SCCA license is proven? That would be better/safer than nannies and keep the Viper pure while a computer flash could cut the 600hp down to 450 quite easily.

Buying a Gen 4 sorta limits the hp to 550rwhp because of the Venom programmer. So really fast is older, lol.

Ted

Ted

 

[WILDASP]

......Not everyone who buys a Viper is a race car driver. Believe it or not, some people buy the car to drive in the streets on a Sunday afternoon. It doesn't mean that they should be obligated to take a racing proficiency course to enable them to drive a Viper.

Why not? Such a course also makes one a more skilled driver on the street, and I would think that most people would consider the additional endorsement on their driver's license a point of pride - rather like those boat owners who like to have a professional Master's License, even though the law does not require it.

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

he had gone into a relatively slow corner, on cold tires, on a 35 degree morning, and attempted to accelerate out of it....hard. When the nanny box failed to put an immediate halt to the resulting slide, he overcorrected, AND stabbed the brake pedal, thus driving right off the inside of the turn.

I've posted a similar story and there are no doubt others. Yet the stubborn pro-nanny crowd still ignores reality and logic and instead buys into the hype.

 

[Dom426h]

The deputy that patrols my sub division happened to cruise by as I was warming the engine in my driveway. I told him about this discussion and what I planned to do. He came and watched for a couple of minutes, gave a thumbs up, and went on his way.

good stuff, haha. on a sunday i set up cones in a private school parkinglot to practice slalom with my autocross miata(another pure drivers car). after about 15min, a guy in a maintinance truck pulled up and watched me for about 5min untill i spun out once then he drove up and asked me to leave. I asked him if he wanted to give it a shot but he didnt bite

Dont be timid to practice in parkinglots guys.
Here is a couple tips though:
-find one that is Off main roads so that you dont draw any unnecessary attention to yourself
-an Empty parkinglot is ideal
-only ONE vehicle at a time. If you roll up with a crew it could be considered a speed exhibition which could warrent a ticket.
(however, i have done this...)
-if the lot is near residential area be carefull with sound pollution late at night. If a cop gets a call for a noise violation he will certainly kick you out and possibly write you a ticket.(i know my viper dosnt meet the db requirement by a longshot)

Basically the worsed that can happen is someone askes you to leave
(or you crash into a lightpole/curb...)
(edit: watch out for Children)

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

Basically the worsed that can happen is someone askes you to leave
(or you crash into a lightpole/curb...)

What about the children? You could run over the children.

 

[Dom426h]

I've posted a similar story and there are no doubt others. Yet the stubborn pro-nanny crowd still ignores reality and logic and instead buys into the hype.

The HYPE ,ahh yes

When i drive anyones newer vehicle the first thing i do is tun OFF the traction controll. They look at me like i am crazy. Like they dont feel safe with the little light that says "TC Off". hahaha

In my parents HyundiXG350 the TC is the worst. The slightest bit of wheelspin and the computer CUTS the throttle completely for a full second. This cmobined with the extremely slow response of the electronic throttle makes for a very annoying driving experience that makes me feel unsafe as if i am not in controll of the vehicle as the driver Should. The TC on this car is completely unusable in the snow.

 

[PatentLaw]

Oh I can see it now......some kid grabs the Viper, does not have the certification for sports cars, wrecks it and then brings suit. Dodge produced a car that is inherently dangerous,....so much so that they require a special permit. The car should have had an age detection device or a thumb print scanner to verify the driver was a person with qualifications.

All for a hundred dollars worth of circuits. Silly.

Honestly, it would be more statistically meaningful if we just stopped shipping Vipers to Florida. Look at these statistics......I mean these guys really are terrible drivers. We obviously could save more lives if we just eliminated Viper drivers in the Sunshine state. Over 8% of all traffic deaths in one state. 3000 out of 41000. Check up your state in the below link to see how you measure up. Perhaps all of the problems are in Florida, not the rest of the nation.

FARS Encyclopedia: States - Fatalities and Fatality Rates

We only impact 2% of the total number of states by eliminating deliveries there, but we pick up over 8% on safety!!!! It is much better than requiring EVERYONE to get a new license.

You argue no nannies, but then require the government or Dodge to step in and do the same and monitor everyone. You are too much.......

Oh wait. You were serious. My mistake.

 

[AviP]

Dont be timid to practice in parkinglots guys.
Here is a couple tips though:
-find one that is Off main roads so that you dont draw any unnecessary attention to yourself
-an Empty parkinglot is ideal
-only ONE vehicle at a time. If you roll up with a crew it could be considered a speed exhibition which could warrent a ticket.
(however, i have done this...)
-if the lot is near residential area be carefull with sound pollution late at night. If a cop gets a call for a noise violation he will certainly kick you out and possibly write you a ticket.(i know my viper dosnt meet the db requirement by a longshot)

Basically the worsed that can happen is someone askes you to leave
(or you crash into a lightpole/curb...)
(edit: watch out for Children)

+1 on all of the above. I should also add that your practice session should not last more than 15 minutes. Keep a printout of this post in the car. If you are in earnest, most cops are very understanding and only the most anal will ticket you.

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

Oh I can see it now......some kid grabs the Viper, does not have the certification for sports cars, wrecks it and then brings suit. Dodge produced a car that is inherently dangerous,....so much so that they require a special permit. The car should have had an age detection device or a thumb print scanner to verify the driver was a person with qualifications.

All for a hundred dollars worth of circuits. Silly.

Silly it is. And it's your industry barrister. If it were up to the public there would be a limit on licenses to practice law too. Then we wouldn't have to worry about ridiculous lawsuits that point blame everywhere but at the person actually responsible.

Oh and we could also get a bit of freedom back.

 

[Dom426h]

+1 on all of the above. I should also add that your practice session should not last more than 15 minutes. Keep a printout of this post in the car. If you are in earnest, most cops are very understanding and only the most anal will ticket you.

great points. I will definitely type up something to keep in my glovebox so if an officer ever confronts me i can just hand it to him rather than trying to explain and have him assume im BS'ing.

On the 15min session rule. I always follow a 10min rule at Night. Figure if someone hears the noise from a distance is would prob take atleast 5min before they actually pick up the phone to call 911, then another 10 for somone to respond. By then im Gone

 

[WILDASP]

Oh I can see it now......some kid grabs the Viper, does not have the certification for sports cars, wrecks it and then brings suit. Dodge produced a car that is inherently dangerous,....so much so that they require a special permit. The car should have had an age detection device or a thumb print scanner to verify the driver was a person with qualifications.

Patent,
Very funny, but off target. If you go back and read what I posted, the additional qualification requirements would be a part of state motor vehicle codes, requiring an endorsement on the driver's license of anyone operating a vehicle in the designated class. This would be similar to what most states now require for operating a motorcycle; i.e. a class code on a regular DL indicating that that driver is certified to drive, in addition to regular vehicles, vehicles of a class for which there are additional requirements. A driver would simply present the additional required credentials when upgrading or renewing an existing license to receive the endorsement. So, in the example you used, the kid would be guilty of driving without a proper license. End of story. The state, NOT the manufacturer, would issue the permit, and police it just like a motorcycle license endorsement. You could still buy the car without one; you simply couldn't legally drive it. I don't know how it works in NJ, but in SC, if you are stopped while riding a motorcycle, and do not have a motorcycle endorsement on your DL, you are guilty of "operating without a valid driver's license"; simple as that.

 

[WILDASP]

Silly it is. And it's your industry barrister. If it were up to the public there would be a limit on licenses to practice law too. Then we wouldn't have to worry about ridiculous lawsuits that point blame everywhere but at the person actually responsible.

Oh and we could also get a bit of freedom back.

+ 1 Not only the best post in this worthless thread, but the best idea of the millenium!

 

[ViperGTS]

Interesting. FL or CA or TX have approx. the same fatal car accidents nos. compared to Germany (80 million people - on the autobahn only 12% die there in accidents)!

 

[eucharistos]

Interesting. FL or CA or TX have approx. the same fatal car accidents nos. compared to Germany (80 million people - on the autobahn only 12% die there in accidents)!

populations as of 2006:

California - 36,457,549
Texas - 23,507,783
Florida - 18,089,888

roughly = populations

people are people

 

[RTTTTed]

Patent,
Very funny, but off target. If you go back and read what I posted, the additional qualification requirements would be a part of state motor vehicle codes, requiring an endorsement on the driver's license of anyone operating a vehicle in the designated class. This would be similar to what most states now require for operating a motorcycle; i.e. a class code on a regular DL indicating that that driver is certified to drive, in addition to regular vehicles, vehicles of a class for which there are additional requirements. A driver would simply present the additional required credentials when upgrading or renewing an existing license to receive the endorsement. So, in the example you used, the kid would be guilty of driving without a proper license. End of story. The state, NOT the manufacturer, would issue the permit, and police it just like a motorcycle license endorsement. You could still buy the car without one; you simply couldn't legally drive it. I don't know how it works in NJ, but in SC, if you are stopped while riding a motorcycle, and do not have a motorcycle endorsement on your DL, you are guilty of "operating without a valid driver's license"; simple as that.

Good ideas. To further show the point I have the #1&6 with #15 endorsement. Basically if it's legal to drive on the road I am licensed to drive it. My Tractor-trailer (1) license experience and course also included smaller trucks, under and over 24 pass Buses as well as air brakes (#15) and hydraulic brakes. I like the idea of a specal class for extremely different types of performance vehicles. They don't allow anything except entry level classes AFTER ground school for tracking your car (even Prius's), entering a road rally (http://www.targacanadawest.com/images/stories/bambina_forms/tcw-bambina-rules-regulations.pdf) or a Hill climb. I think that it would be a good thing to have a separate class license. Perhaps the Rally and Track assoc would allow a Class 3 entry to start?

I'd really like to see speed limit signs that read - Trucks 50/Cars 60/Supercars 100 though

Ted

 

[PatentLaw]

Well it seems that a very good post above was missed, again, by the majority of you. Let me spell it out more clearly.....

According to the below link, Germany had 7792 deaths for 80,000,000 people in the country, as compared to Florida, which was 18,328,340. So Germany had approximately four times the number of people than Florida. The number of deaths in Germany from the article, is:

[FONT=verdana,arial]"Germany - According to the German Federal Statistical Office in 1998, 7,792 citizens were killed in motor vehicle accidents, with 497,000 injuries reported. We estimate that 65,000 of the reported injuries were serious. "[/FONT]​

Taking that into account, Florida, with an approximate population of Germany's size, would have had over 12,000 deaths.​

In other words, Germany is much safer than Florida. (Just poking fun here) But the point that many of you missed that needs to be brought to your attention, is that​

SPEED IS UNLIMITED IN AREAS OF GERMANY. YOU CAN TAKE ANY CAR YOU WANT AND DRIVE IT AS FAST AS YOU WANT. PERIOD. YOU DON'T NEED A SPECIAL LICENSE TO DRIVE FAST!!​

So the whole point of "You need to have a special license" for the Viper is pointless because speed does not necessarily kill.​

I also find it fascinating, and please correct me if I am wrong, but there are a large number of US States that can just use their licenses in Germany directly. No problem. Residents from a few US states have to take a minor written exam. Canadians can directly drive...no problem. Go Maple Leafs.​

One of the states that is not allowed to drive directly in Germany? ​

Come on guys.....you guessed it......​

Germany does not allow drivers from Florida on their roads without other special provisions. Makes me think..... ​

Germany has icing conditions, and is more densely populated than Florida. It has more severe weathering conditions for the roadways than Florida. See below:

International Injury & Fatality Statistics

The point is not to bash Florida drivers or member of the Viper Club. It is merely to point out that having a special license to drive a fast car or at performance speeds is really not the way to go. Many vehicles can drive at fast speeds as shown by the German statistics. They are relatively more safe than Florida.

You don't want a few circuits in the car, but would rather that all members of the Viper Club be bothered with obtaining special permits, pay the extra fees and be subject to some state official. That is a nanny state and more difficult for the members than a few circuits. If you want to have a "special" license to make you feel more proud because you need that boost to your ego, then go fly a plane.

People always state on this website that Ferrari's are nice cars. Lambo's are nice. ZR1's are nice....the list goes on. They all have the technology. It does not make the cars any less fun to drive. And not that I advocate it, but you will be able to easily turn off the ESC and other nannies if you know what you are doing. Think of it as the work arounds for the skip shift for the manual transmission.

Instead, we have people who are "purists" that would rather the car not be produced for the rest of us because of the handful of electronics just to make a silly point. The ultimate nanny is elimination of the car.

Why you guys don't trust the engineering and management from Dodge now is beyond me. They have made a great car up to now. They will continue to do so. All this talk really hurts the brand in my opinion and can end the Viper if more interested buyers don't speak up and say they want a car that satisfies the regulations and is fun to drive.

 

[TrapperJ]

Hi PatentLaw. FYI, I ran (dust still hasn't settled 25 years later) away from N.J to Fl as soon as I graduated from school. Too crowded and changing neighborhoods. You're very lucky to live in the Princeton area, hopefully still very pretty.
Great statistics. I'm glad I didn't try to get european delivery of my MB or Porsches, It would have been embarrassing trying to get a license in Germany. Do you have a breakdown of types of drivers involved in accidents down here?
This past year I have been in two accidents. First was an 18 year old with minimal insurance cut in front of me. $26,000 in damage. Next a car with 3 illegals without licences or insurances. $1300 (out of pocket) because didn't want to have insurance rates go up. BTW I haven't had an accident in 32 years prior to last year
Demografics are important as to accident perpetrators. Old, very old and cadavers in training cause a lot of accidents here in FL. The same old woman cut in front of my motorcycle twice on the way to work. When I pulled next to her at a light and banged on the window she acted as if deaf and blind. Many illegals have no licenses and no training. The dregs of society who have nothing to lose ( masses have moved here) are notorious here. These people cause accidents directly or indirectly through bad driving or infuriation.
Well, there's my question and rant.

 

[GR8_ASP]

I think we need to eleminate the ultimate nanny: the electric starter. I wonder if they had the nanny discussion back then.

Or maybe the electonic control of ignition timing. I'll bet all the Model T guys complained about how sissified the cars were becoming with the elimination of the timing advance lever. Took a real driver to optimize fuel spark and throttle at the same time.

Or then again maybe the power brake nanny. You lose braking sensation with power brakes and are less connected to the car.

Or maybe the power steering nanny. No longer directly connected to the steering wheels.

And now that I think of it lets bring back the carburetor and distributors. Bias ply tires also, only wimps drive on them radial thingies.


Technological advances will always have their detractors. Fortunately the ultimate factor in this Darwin evoution is time itself. Those that grow up with ABS, ESC, TC, paddle shift, etc will not know what they are missing and will be even more happy with how their cars perform. Because when you get down to it I am happiest when my car is faster. And in time every one of these so-called nannies will result in cars that are faster.

Now a real nnany in my book is anything that allows Big Brother to monitor me. Those are nannies worth fighting against.

 

[PatentLaw]

Hi PatentLaw. FYI, I ran (dust still hasn't settled 25 years later) away from N.J to Fl as soon as I graduated from school. Too crowded and changing neighborhoods. You're very lucky to live in the Princeton area, hopefully still very pretty.
Great statistics. I'm glad I didn't try to get european delivery of my MB or Porsches, It would have been embarrassing trying to get a license in Germany. Do you have a breakdown of types of drivers involved in accidents down here?
This past year I have been in two accidents. First was an 18 year old with minimal insurance cut in front of me. $26,000 in damage. Next a car with 3 illegals without licences or insurances. $1300 (out of pocket) because didn't want to have insurance rates go up. BTW I haven't had an accident in 32 years prior to last year
Demografics are important as to accident perpetrators. Old, very old and cadavers in training cause a lot of accidents here in FL. The same old woman cut in front of my motorcycle twice on the way to work. When I pulled next to her at a light and banged on the window she acted as if deaf and blind. Many illegals have no licenses and no training. The dregs of society who have nothing to lose ( masses have moved here) are notorious here. These people cause accidents directly or indirectly through bad driving or infuriation.
Well, there's my question and rant.

I will look for those statistics. Maybe I inappropriately assumed that it was all older people. You bring up a great point. Since you live there, your opinion obviously makes more sense than my reviewing the tea leaves through data. Maybe there is something to the above.

Sorry to hear about the accidents. Those who do their best to stay out of them always seem to get involved in them some time through no fault of their own. Be careful on that motorcycle. Accidents there will kill you. Also, check out the other thread on the great motorcycle prices if you are in the market for them. A couple of members have picked them up for 1/2 off. Crazy deals.


PS (An aside from the technical conversation)
Princeton is nice, but all of NJ is a mess. The new gov. took over and gave a huge speech. The state is in a really bad economic bind. People are flocking out like crazy. They are eliminating aid to the railroads immediately. They are changing pensions to people who have already retired. Eliminating all school aid. Home values are going down like crazy. Don't touch NJ with a ten foot pole. You are in a better area.


Will post those statistics if I can get them.....