Street Racing law question.....

WESTCOAST JASON

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This is info about a street racing law just passed in San Diego.....

Forfeiture Ordinance passes City Council Unanimously

San Diego became an even more difficult place to illegal street race last week with the passage of the toughest "Forfeiture Ordinance" in the United States. Illegal street racing offenders will now lose their car permanently as a result of being convicted a second time of VC 23109. (cut/past from racelegal.com)

***************
My question is what happens if the car is financed?
 
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WESTCOAST JASON

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I have a $10k receipt in hand with info for the wire transfer and confirmation it was recieved. Now that 'TUNER' only owes me $5k as opposed to the original $10k. Get your facts straight before coming off like a fool, and keep the posts where they belong.

BTW: Jim Stark - your VCA profile does not do much convincing that you are not the BANNED tuner in question.....
 
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This thread should go to Judge Judy or Jerry Springer... :smirk:
 

MES

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If the government steals your car then sells it, you still have to pay back the loan. A thief steals your car, your insurance covers it, loan is paid. What a great country... and justice for all :rolleyes:

How about this -> you let a friend (son, brother, etc.) borrow your car he gets busted then YOU loose YOUR car and YOU still have to pay back your loan.
 

Nexus-6

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Something similar is pending (passed?) here in TX...if caught street racing here after September, you lose your license...period.

Pretty sad if you just happen to be merging onto the highway a little faster than that 'stang next to ya and you get your license yanked.

Or, if you just happen to be next to a guy who wants to run 'em at a redlight for a block and, even though you don't bite, a cop assumes you were both racing when he launches. That actually happens here in Plano from time to time...and it's an automatic night in jail. About the only way to prove you were not racing if this happens (and you know a cop is up ahead) is to remain at the freakin' light when the guy next to ya takes off...

Way too much potentially abusable power in the hands of the traffic cops IMO. :(

So, is this Jim Stark truly the master of disguise after all...?
 

RedGTS

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Jason, to answer your question, most forfeiture laws have a provision allowing a lienholder (or owner in the case of a lease) to get the car back if they can show they had no knowledge of what the car was being used for. You would think this would be a very easy burden (after all, how many banks know what the owner/lessee is doing with the car on a particular day), but I know in some places (including TN) law enforcement agencies in effect blackmail the bank into "settling" the case by making a contribution to, say, the local DTF or some such law enforcement fund or else go through a lengthy and expensive court process to get the car back. And of course the car continues to depreciate all the while it sits outside in an impound lot. It can be pretty close to legalized theft, unfortunately, and I say that as someone who usually is a big supporter of law enforcement.
 

Elite1

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Just another way for the local PD to make money. The cities are going nuts trying to add ways to **** additional funds for "projects" I keep hearing about all th ereduction of city funding for police ect and then I see cops pulling people over for inspection stickers and tinted windows. I see people stranded on the side of the road during rush hour traffic and cop after cop goes by without seeing if the occupants are ok and need assistance. I think they could fire half the cops and give that money to the 50% of cops that actually work for a living solving crimes ect.

As for these idiodic laws of theft by proxy, wait anothers 5 years and they'll be taking your house because your grass got an inch longer than it should have this week. They already hand out fines for that around here.


Land of the free! ????
 

Hans Christian

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What if the Viper is in the wife's name and I the husband was racing - can they then take the car away (considering she wan't in the car at the time it happend) ???.
 

ViperJoe

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Check your local legal aid office for free legal advice, unless the forum has its own attorneys at large that could post one of those long legaleese responses.
 

Bad_Byte

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Jason, after what has happened last week with the grandmother in Santa Ana and today with the 18yo in Ontario. Is it any wonder?

Come on up we have drag racing at the California speedway for serious racing. Its getting bigger all the time. I don't see why anyone would want to "race" on public streets. I'm not referring to squeeling tires, I mean racing.
 
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WESTCOAST JASON

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After having learned my lesson out here about the consequences, I have stopped 'street racing' anyhow. I just thought it was an interesting fact that the county could do that. They dont even do that for drunk driving multiple offenders..... We had another useless death down here last week when some kids were speeding on the freeway and obviously had not been familiar with the road. They hit our 'rythm' section of HWY 52 and lost control. 2 dead instantly. Sad.
 

99 R/T 10

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On court TV, they are showing the case that caused this law to get passed. Two street racers hit and killer two teenagers. These guys are done!
 
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WESTCOAST JASON

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I have been watching that on TV also. Very sad case. In order to show ****** (****** one anyway) Don't they need to show intent or premeditation? I can see how those two young men could get manslaughter or something.....
 

GR8_ASP

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Unless the homicide occured as the result of a felonious act. I believe most states provide for ****** as the result of a felony act. If drag racing is made a felony it would then allow ****** charges.
 

MichaelP

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Here is info about this case:

Calhoun and Waller are the first drag racers to be tried for ****** in San Diego. Under what is known as the implied malice theory, the prosecution does not need to demonstrate an intent to kill in order to win a conviction. If the jury finds that the men raced "with knowledge of the danger to and with conscious disregard for human life," they can find them guilty.
 

Moundir

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In Nyc the law to confascate cars is for dwi offenders. Doesnt matter if it is first or second offence, law might include street racing soon a cop friend told me.
 

Big Medicine

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De ja vu all over agin.

http://user.icx.net/~drherb/fringe.html

This is based on Admiralty Law; reference your local classifieds for forfeiture & seizure notices....it's in there. Reserve rights under common law or UCC & they will have difficulty taking your car. Clips, ridiculous sounding at first, but researched & valid upon verification & discussion with pros.

JURISDICTION
The Constitution of the United States mentions three areas of jurisdiction in which the courts may operate:

Common Law

Common Law is based on God's Law. Anytime someone is charged under the Common Law, there must be a damaged party. You are free under the Common Law to do anything you please, as long as you do not infringe on the life, liberty, or property of someone else. You have a right to make a fool of yourself provided you do not infringe on the life, liberty, or property of someone else. The Common Law does not allow for any government action which prevents a man from making a fool of himself. For instance, when you cross over state lines in most states, you will see a sign which says, "BUCKLE YOUR SEAT BELTS -- IT'S THE LAW." This cannot be Common Law, because who would you injure if you did not buckle up? Nobody. This would be compelled performance. But Common Law cannot compel performance. Any violation of Common Law is a CRIMINAL ACT, and is punishable.

Equity Law

Equity Law is law which compels performance. It compels you to perform to the exact letter of any contract that you are under. So, if you have compelled performance, there must be a contract somewhere, and you are being compelled to perform under the obligation of the contract. Now this can only be a civil action -not criminal. In Equity Jurisdiction, you cannot be tried criminally, but you can be compelled to perform to the letter of a contract. If you then refuse to perform as directed by the court, you can be charged with contempt of court, which is a criminal action. Are our seatbelt laws Equity laws? No, they are not, because you cannot be penalized or punished for not keeping to the letter of a contract.

Admiralty/Maritime Law

This is a civil jurisdiction of Compelled Performance which also has Criminal Penalties for not adhering to the letter of the contract, but this only applies to International Contracts. Now we can see what jurisdiction the seatbelt laws (and all traffic laws, building codes, ordinances, tax codes, etc.) are under. Whenever there is a penalty for failure to perform (such as willful failure to file), that is Admiralty/Maritime Law and there must be a valid international contract in force.
However, the courts don't want to admit that they are operating under Admiralty/Maritime Jurisdiction, so they took the International Law or Law of Merchants and adopted it into our codes. That is what the Supreme Court decided in the Erie Railroad case -- that the decisions will be based on commercial law or business law and that it will have criminal penalties associated with it. Since they were instructed not to call it Admiralty Jurisdiction, they call it Statutory Jurisdiction.

COURTS OF CONTRACT

You may ask how we got into this situation where we can be charged with failure to wear seatbelts and be fined for it. Isn't the judge sworn to uphold the Constitution? Yes, he is. But you must understand that the Constitution, in Article I, Section 10, gives us the unlimited right to contract, as long as we do not infringe on the life, liberty or property of someone else. Contracts are enforceable, and the Constitution gives two jurisdictions where contracts can be enforced -- Equity or Admiralty. But we find them being enforced in Statutory Jurisdiction.

WITHOUT PREJUDICE UCC 1-207

When you use "without prejudice UCC 1-207" in connection with your signature, you are saying:
"I reserve my right not to be compelled to perform under any contract or commercial agreement that I did not enter knowingly, voluntarily and intentionally. And furthermore, I do not accept the liability of the compelled benefit of any unrevealed contract or commercial agreement."


What Does The Gold-Fringed Flag Signify?

It is commonplace to see a gold-fringed United States flag standing in the present-day courtrooms. Is the gold fringe there for decoration only, or does it signify a certain jurisdiction? Make no mistake about it -- the American People have been put on notice that the normal constitutional functions of government have been suspended and that their Land has been placed under martial law. The information below is not by any means exhaustive, but will at least point the reader in the right direction to do additional research on his own.

Pursuant to the "Law of the Flag," a military flag does result in jurisdictional implications when flown
(Ruhstrat v. People, 57 N.E. 41, 45, 185 Ill. 133, 49 LRA 181, 76 Am).

Under the powers designated by these statutes, the President may: seize property, organize and control the means of production, seize commodities,assign military forces abroad, institute martial law, seize and control all transportation and communications, regulate the operation of private enterprise, restrict travel, and, in a plethora of particular ways, control the lives of all American citizens.... (United States Senate Report 93-549, 19 November 1973).

THE FLAG, AS WITH ALL THINGS IN LAW, IS HIGHLY DEFINED.

On The Title 4 U.S.C. 1,American Flag of Peace of the United States of America THERE ARE ABSOLUTELY NO PROVISIONS IN THE LAW FOR ADDING A FOURTH COLOR (YELLOW FRINGE) TO THE TITLE 4 U.S.C. 1,2 FLAG.

THE LAW OF THE FLAG

The Law of the Flag, an International Law, which is recognized by every nation of the planet, is defined as:

" .. a rule to the effect that a vessel is a part of the territory of the nation whose flag she flies. The term is used to designate the RIGHTS under which a ship owner, who sends his vessel into a foreign port, gives notice by his flag to all who enter into contracts with the ship master that he intends the Law of that Flag to regulate those contracts, and that they must either submit to its operation or not contract with him or his agent at all." Ref.: Ruhstrat v. People, 57 N.E. 41

Legal notices displayed concern property seized by Federal agents as ***** under Admiralty law. Notice is required so that anyone who might have an interest in the property seized has opportunity to seek to protect his interest. One would not be wise to attempt this, though. Most likely, any excuse will be used to allege that the party claiming interest in the property was a party to the alleged offense that resulted in the original seizure. The allegation is enough to justify the taking of property - under Admiralty law guilt is presumed. The claimant might well lose other property not yet in the hands of these landgoing pirates, even though no actual conviction of any offense is ever entered. Check your local paper's legal notices. Look into the cases cited and see if any conviction occurs - or if any charges were even filed - against the persons whose property was seized.

Colorado is a long ways from the ocean. Admiralty law is farther still from the common law recognized under Federal and State constitutions.

"Whereas, since the close of the last war, the British parliament, claiming a power, of right, to bind the people of America by statutes in all cases whatsoever, hath, in some acts, expressly imposed taxes on them, and in others, under various pretences, but in fact for the purpose of raising a revenue, hath imposed rates and duties payable in these colonies, established a board, with unconstitutional powers, and extended the jurisdiction of courts of admiralty, not only for collecting the said duties , but for the trial of causes merely arising within the body of a county."

NOTES: The "last war" they are referring to is the "French and Indian War." Please notice the Founder's objection to the extension of Courts of Admiralty. These Courts were to operate on the high seas, and to serve as collectors for duties on imported goods or fees associated with ships as well as administering the "Prize Courts" (the seizure of property). These courts, however, were not supposed to be applied on land against the people. On land, the People were to be served by "Common Law." They were never supposed to be used "for the trial of causes merely arising within the body of a county."

Great Britian ignored the first declaration, and so the following year, the Founders went on to again bring up this grievance in the second declaration issued on July 6, 1775. This Declaration is known as, "THE DECLARATION OF THE CAUSES AND NECESSITY OF TAKING UP ARMS."

In this declaration the Founders state:

"These devoted colonies were judged to be in such a state, as to present victories without bloodshed, and all the easy emoluments of statuteable plunder." (MY NOTE: Please understand the preceeding sentence. Today is a carbon copy repeat of this philosphy of government)

"The uninterrupted tenor of their peaceable and respectful behaviour from the beginning of colonization, their dutiful, zealous, and useful services during the war, though so recently and amply acknowledged in the most honourable manner by his majesty, by the late king, and by parliament, could not save them from the meditated innovations.

Parliament was influenced to adopt the pernicious project, and assuming a new power over them, have in the course of eleven years, given such decisive specimens of the spirit and consequences attending this power, as to leave no doubt concerning the effects of acquiescence under it.

They have undertaken to give and grant our money without our consent, though we have ever exercised an exclusive right to dispose of our own property; statutes have been passed for extending the jurisdiction of courts of admiralty and vice-admiralty beyond their ancient limits; for depriving us of the accustomed and inestimable priviledge of trial by jury, in cases affecting both life and property; for suspending the legislature of one of the colonies; for interdicting all commerce to the capital of another; and for altering fundamentally the form of
government established by charter, and secured by acts of its own legislature solemnly confirmed by the crown; for exempting the 'murderers' of colonists from legal trial, and in effect, from punishment; for erecting in a neighbouring province, acquired by the joint arms of Great-Britain and America, a despotism dangerous to our very existence; and for quartering soldiers upon the colonists in time of profound peace. It has also been resolved in parliament, that colonists charged with committing certain offences shall be transported to England to be tried. But why should we enumerate our injuries in detail? By one statute it is declared, that parliament can of right make laws to bind us in all cases what so ever. What is to defend us against so enormous so unlimited a power?"

Please once again notice the position in their list of grievances where the Founders place this policy of "...extending the jurisdiction of courts of admiralty ...." They placed this grievance BEFORE objecting to not having a trial by jury, BEFORE the suspension of one of the legislatures of one of the Colonies (equal to suspending the legislature of one of our States), BEFORE their complaint of the central government (Great Britain) changing the very system of our government, and even BEFORE complaining that the central government was "...exempting the 'murderers' of colonists from legal trial...!"

Indeed, the Founders strenously objected to applying Admiralty Law against the people! The third proof is found in the Constitution itself, in the Bill of Rights. The Fourth Amendment guarantees, "The Right of the People to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated; ...."

And the 5th Amendment states, "No person shall...be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of Law; nor shall private property be taken for public use without just compensation."

Just what kind of Law does the Constitution refer to, when it speaks of the people being subjected to?

The 7th Amendment gives that answer.

It says, "In suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed 20 dollars, the Right of trial by jury shall be preserved; and no fact, tried by a jury shall be reexamined in any Court of the United States than according to the rules of the Common Law."

Please note it does not leave any wiggle room. The Law we are to be subjected to in any controversy exceeding 20 dollars is the Common Law! NOT ADMIRALTY LAW!
 

malcoll

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Hey here's a unique thought.... don't race illegally and you won't lose your car?

I'm all for freedom and the "pursuit of happiness".... but street racing is just STUPID... and endangers MY pursuit of living to be 80 years old!!

It ****** me off when I see these idiots screaming away from a stoplight....... or doing 120 mph down a city street!!

It's just plain rude. If you want to race go to a racetrack.... where it's somewhat controlled... don't do it on the street where teenagers and grandma's are trying to get to school and the grocery store!
 

Daffy Duck Viper

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That is the absolute truth!
Many a stupid person out there endangering all. Makes me mad when I see people speeding in neighborhoods and parking lots. Hello! Idiots! Anybody home?

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GR8_ASP

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I would agree that racing where you are jeopardizing someone else is stupid. But now, if you claim racing is illegal and should be a crime allowing goverment confiscation, what is to prevent an unreasonable police officer to just say you were racing. Maybe for 5 mph over the limit. That is the problem. Not the extreme cases where it is easy to see justice, but all the other cases where it is in the hands of an officer to make the judgement. I just do not trust the courts or police to offer up justice reasonably. In confiscation cases you basically must prove that you did not do it. How??? The court believes the word of the police as an absolute.

Another thing. Why should the person that has a more expensive vehicle pay a greater penalty for a similar act. Confiscation does not take that into account. So the Enzo driver (or F1 if you like) pays a cool half mil for the same thing a Mustang owner loses 10 or 20k over. That justice?
 

Big Medicine

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I would agree that racing where you are jeopardizing someone else is stupid. But now, if you claim racing is illegal and should be a crime allowing goverment confiscation, what is to prevent an unreasonable police officer to just say you were racing. Maybe for 5 mph over the limit. That is the problem. Not the extreme cases where it is easy to see justice, but all the other cases where it is in the hands of an officer to make the judgement. I just do not trust the courts or police to offer up justice reasonably. In confiscation cases you basically must prove that you did not do it. How??? The court believes the word of the police as an absolute.

Another thing. Why should the person that has a more expensive vehicle pay a greater penalty for a similar act. Confiscation does not take that into account. So the Enzo driver (or F1 if you like) pays a cool half mil for the same thing a Mustang owner loses 10 or 20k over. That justice?

HEAR HEAR......BRAVO! Bingo......Yeah, What he said!

It's not about what's right, wrong, legal, or illegal. It's about abuse of power. There was a war fought over crap like this.

I'm actually afraid of what I might do if something like this was used against me in a power play by the police.
 
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WESTCOAST JASON

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I also agree, that is what this is about. We all know when and when not to enjoy our Vipers. But since when can government penalize nearly 'at-will' - it is just plain scary...
 

malcoll

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If that were truly the risk... then you would hear about police planting drugs to take someone's house?

Ever hear of the RICO Act? They can take your house if it used in drug traficking......

I doubt a charge would stick unless there were enough evidence to support that someone was illegally street racing.

Give it up.... this is not a play by the "government" to steal your car.... or take away your liberty.

And the policy and government cannot penalize "at-will".... anymore than they can already.... at least.
 

MES

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If that were truly the risk... then you would hear about police planting drugs to take someone's house?

The best part is they don't need to plant drugs to take your stuff :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

It took more than three years and about $30,000 in legal and other fees to wrest control of the property back from the government even though Gerhardt was never charged, or even investigated for criminal wrongdoing.
I was shocked. It seemed unfair to me, Davis says. I didn't know that the government could come in and take something take your house or car ? and then you would have to prove that the government was wrong. It takes a very long time and is very difficult to prove.

Jones, a Tennessee gardener, paid cash for a plane ticket to Texas in 1991 so he could purchase shrubbery for a project.
Jones was carrying $9,000 in cash, which coupled with the cash-bought ticket, led authorities to conclude it was drug money. They confiscated it even though they never charged him with a crime.

So under the Laws that Congress passed in 1984 as part of its "War on Drugs", quote, the agents confiscated the $9,000 and walked away. Having found on the victim no trace of drugs, they had no evidence to charge him... but they kept the money, "arresting it" as Steve Kroft explained incredulously.

He further explained that under those "forfeiture" laws, the victim had to convince a court he was innocent, rather than have the government prove him guilty. So all we were taught about the presumption of innocence went out of the window when Congress (whom you elected) wrote its forfeiture Laws.

Just to make sure it could happen to the innocent, CBS had one of their own staff do just the same thing - buy a ticket with cash, at the same airport. And the DEA agents did to him exactly what they had earlier done to the nurseryman - right up to the point when he told them he was a "60 Minutes" producer, that is. Then, they backed right off in a big hurry!

The businessman never did get his money back, and nor do thousands of other victims of DEA seizures get their property back, yet only a small minority of them are ever convicted of any crime.

Asset forfeiture has become standard procedure for many police departments. Cash, cars, homes and other property are routinely seized during drug searches and never returned. It happens even if drugs are never found. And it happens when the items belong to someone who had no part in the crime.

Police departments use the seized property to supplement their budgets - giving the cops more resources to go out and seize even more property.

All police need is probable cause that the property was involved in a crime.

Innocent owners must prove that a crime did not take place. Many simply forget it. They weigh the legal costs against the slim chance of recovering their property and find that it's not worth it.

Police stopped 49-year-old Ethel Hylton at Houston?s Hobby Airport and told her she was under arrest because a drug dog had scratched at her luggage. Agents searched her bags and strip-searched her, but they found no drugs. They did find $39,110 in cash, money she had received from an insurance settlement and her life savings; accumulated through over 20 years of work as a hotel housekeeper and hospital janitor. Ethel Hylton completely document-ed where she got the money and was never charged with a crime. But the police kept her money anyway. Nearly four years later, she is still trying to get her money back.

Detroit drug police raided a grocery store, but failed to find any drugs. After drug dogs reacted to three $1.00 bills in the cash register, the police seized $4,384 from cash registers and the store safe

Kathy and Mark Schrama were arrested just before Christmas 1990 at their home in New Jersey. Kathy was charged with taking $500 worth of UPS packages from neighbors? porches. Mark was charged with receiving stolen goods. If found guilty, they might have paid a small fine and received probation. The day after their arrest, their house, cars and furniture were seized. Based upon mere accusation, $150,000 in property was confiscated, without trial or indictment. Police even took their clothing, eyeglasses, and Christmas presents for their 10-year-old son

Police or government seizures now pose a seemingly random ? but still, very real and terrifying ? threat to everything we have worked so hard to earn and save over the years. It is frightening to realize that if your teenage son or daughter hosts a party at your house, and one of the guests brings a few joints of marijuana, you can lose your entire house and everything in it under many local or state forfeiture laws. (Federal forfeiture laws will apply only if the substance is present in salable quantities.)

Three fraternities on the University of Virginia campus found this out the hard way when federal agents raided them and confiscated a small amount of marijuana worth, at most, a few hundred dollars. Criminally, this would have been treated as a youthful first transgression of a few teenagers. But under the seizure laws, the police took the fraternity houses themselves, which were worth about one million dollars.

On March 10, 1992, U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service and state agents trespassed 15 miles onto Richard Smith's Texas ranch, accused him of poisoning eagles, and seized his pickup truck. The agents later tracked down Smith's 75-year-old father, W.B. Smith, and seized his pickup truck--threatening to leave an old man who had had five heart bypass operations ten miles out of town with no transportation. The agents produced no evidence to support their accusation and returned the trucks nine months later without filing charges

Asset forfeiture is spreading like wildfire through the statute books. In Washington, D.C., Portland, Oregon, and Hartford, Connecticut, police confiscate the cars of men who drive up and suggest a "capitalist act between consenting adults" to streetwalkers. Customs Service officials in Texas seized a $138,000 Lear jet after discovering that the owner had made a typographical error on paperwork he submitted to the Federal Aviation Administration.[35] (The FAA's usual response to such a mistake is to require the owner to correct the form.)
 

HP

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One persons definition of 'street racing' may be totally different from yours.
If you're pulling away from a traffic light next to another car, and you punch
the accelerator - without burning your tires or breaking the speed limit -
are you street racing?
 

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