Suspension mods.....

SoCal Rebell

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Been road racing about a year now, at least 35 track days under my belt. I'm also in 3rd place in the Viperdays points stands in Prepared class (ahem). My mods are listed below, add to that an intermediate wheel alignment not the agressive one. The next natural step before Hoosiers is to improve my suspension. Suggestions?
I know the 2000 springs are good, is it worth going to Eibachs (sp) or something else reasonable? Anything else that can be done instead of or in conjunction with shocks/springs? Any tips appreciated.
 

GaryA

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I agree, the Sean Roe suspension is real nice. I don't have the Delrin bushings, but am thinking about it.
 

WCKDVPR

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Ron,

Go see Erik Messley at EMI Racing in Huntington Beach 714-713-9096. He will set you up right.

Say hello for me.
 

K Adelberg

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I have the Sean Roe suspension and not very satisfied with it. The dyno graphs on the shocks are all very different and far off each other. The car bottoms out during street use as well as track use. In long radius corners, it has a "waddle" sensation in addition to wondering after initial weight transfer setting into a corner. Rebound also seems to be an issue. Competitors of mine have seen my wheels leaving the ground over bumps on the track surface, where there wheels remain in contact. I don't think the springs offer much pre-load. Really a poor choice of mine that I regret. I beleive the stock shocks and springs are better, many other racers with years of experience concur. This is all based on my own experience.

I too have the delrin bushings. I think this is a good choice, however have noticed my front lower A-arm sliding backward. This has thrown a red flag for me and needs to be addressed. Perhaps the tolerance fit is too great with incorrect measurements. I think the steel bushing set up is far superior. Erik Messley can assist with this as well.
 

Sean Roe

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Hi Ken,

What is the ride height of your car at (as in could it be too low right now)?
The springs on your shocks are 50% stiffer than stock on the front and 10% stiffer on the back. If it's not too low and you're just driving over rough roads, we can send you a set of thick bump rubbers for the shock shafts. If you'd like stiffer springs, they're $50 to$60 each and depending on how stiff you want to go, you could even try the rears on the front and just get 2 stiffer ones for the rear ($100). Springs are available at most race supply shops.
Regarding the rebound, it's adjustable. Do you still have the instructions that came with them? If not, we can send you another copy so you can adjust them accordingly.
If you have a digital camera, send me a picture of your bushings along with a full description of what raised a "red flag" with you. A red flag on the track means *stop*, so let's see if there's something that needs to be taken care of before proceeding.
Obviously, I can't help you with anything if you don't call or send an e-mail. Though you and I have had our problems, don't think that I wouldn't respond to you out of spite.

To answer Ron's question, there are several choices in upgrades to the suspension. Take several factors into consideration; street and track use, track only, what is too stiff for street driving, what tires will you be on, where is your compromise going to be? Take what opinions you get, talk to the shops that make the parts and go with what you feel comfortable with.

Sean

<FONT COLOR="#ff0000" SIZE="1" FACE="Verdana, Arial">This message has been edited by Sean Roe on 03-20-2002 at 06:07 PM</font>
 

Mark Young

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This is a good thread, and one which is rarely covered. Lets say that stiffness doesn't really bother me and although I ride on the street, I don't mind a setup thats more track only biased. And since I run ViperDays, I'm always on Pilot Sports.

What's my strategy given those considerations? What parts do I start with after lower/align/cornerweight?
 

K Adelberg

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Sorry, Sean Roe. As you stated, "you and I have had our problems." I will never deal with you in the future and certain issues were addressed initially. This is a problem that stiffer springs will not resolve. With regard to the bushings, on the front right lower suspension arm, the rear bushing slides out of place by just prying it with a large screw driver resulting in a change in alignment settings.

Sorry to the board, didn't want this to become a tuner bashing thread. I think this is a great topic too. Just sharing an experiece.
 

Marv S

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Another pitch for Erik Messley, EMI on suspension setups. Convenient that he's in So. Cal, too.
 

jcaspar1

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Don't worry Ken. I don't think you could possibly bash Sean with all the collective good experiences we have had with his products. His response to your problems speaks volumes. Good luck with all your problems...
 

Sean Roe

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Hi Eric,

The Penske shocks can be good, but to say there a lot of poor ones in the market is rather misleading to the general public. You can valve any good shock wrong and get bad results. Properly valve a set of Koni, Moton, JRZ, Dynamic and Penske shocks so they have the same dyno curve, adjusted accordingly and run them on a Viper. The car feels very much the same between all of them, no matter what color the shocks are.

Regarding your comments about the Delrin, are you sure you're not thinking of Nylatron? I've seen it wear out fast when used in racecar bushings. I wouldn't recommend spherical steel bearings (mono balls) for street use either. Typical racecar winter maintenance is to check and replace all worn spherical bearings. Not something I want to do on a street car every year.

Which control arm bushings on the Viper are you saying that you see a "need for some multi-axis movements" in? Corvettes rear control arms ('84 to '96) travel in two axis' and you can't use solid bushings effectively on them. On a Viper, the upper control arm travels on one axis and the lower on another. It's the job of the ball joints at the knuckles to pivot as needed for the difference between the upper and lower arm angles, due to the frame mounting points.

Here's a picture of a Viper control arm and a Delrin bushing set, which has a stainless steel sleeve in the middle that the bushing rotates on once bolted into the frame.
*Note, in the picture below, the steel sleeve is not pushed all the way in. When installed, it is flush with the ends of the bushings and is capped on both ends with the hardened washers shown, so that the bushing ends can travel on a smooth surface and keep dirt out.

You must be registered for see images


Talk to you later,
Sean

<FONT COLOR="#ff0000" SIZE="1" FACE="Verdana, Arial">This message has been edited by Sean Roe on 03-22-2002 at 07:07 PM</font>
 

Sean Roe

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Hi Eric,

laugh.gif

I'm not saying to compare $800 race shocks to $19 shocks from Pep Boys.
I'm saying a good race shock compares well to a good race shock, like comparing a $45,000 Winston Cup motor built by Roush to a $45,000 Winston Cup motor built by Yates. Both will get you there fast and reliably.
If Penske treats you well, that's fine. But, there are a lot of other shock companies that have been in business a long time that have a great product also. There are some shocks available that are not good at all, but those are generally the *cheaper* as in *Saturday night racer* brands. Just don't make the guys with anything other than Penske's here feel bad that they might have one of those "poor quality" shocks you mentioned. Vipers never came with Penske shocks from the factory.

Regarding the multi axis movement, that certainly isn't by Dodge's design. How much binding do you feel when you try to move a stock bushinged control arm up and down?
laugh.gif


By the way, reread my comment about testing the different shocks. It meant comparing them "properly valved, dyno matched and properly adjusted". Not just dyno matched and put the adjustments anywhere you want them.

One thing we can agree on is that the stock suspension setup can certainly be improved on for better handling, lower lap times and a more enjoyable ride.

Sean
P.S.
I was in Daytona recently and some people from Grand Am were asking about you.

<FONT COLOR="#ff0000" SIZE="1" FACE="Verdana, Arial">This message has been edited by Sean Roe on 03-23-2002 at 02:55 PM</font>
 

Sean Roe

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Just a last FYI to those running / considering race shocks for the street. Get yourself a pressure setting tool, a nitrogen bottle and regulator for your garage. Too often we find that people put on these type of shocks and think that they don't have to messs with them. If the pressure in the shock is supposed to be set at 300 psi, but has bled down to 200 psi (common with regular use over time, due to o-rings, schrader valve, etc. leaks), the shock / car will not perform right. We see it regularly, people who own these shock but were not told how often to service them and how. Many people find that their shocks are low on pressure once this is brought to their attention. When racing, you have to check them every weekend. You'll also need to have them removed and sent in for service (o-rings, fluid change) as per the manufacturers reccomendations. This applies to the stock ACR shocks also....

Sean
 

Frank Parise

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Interesting dialogue between Erik and Sean, both very knowledgeable on the subject. When they get into the highly detailed techno-babble, they both lose the attention of the Viper owner.

I've enjoyed working with each of them and my check book proves the degree of flattery and respect I have for their advice. Here's my take for all you mere mortals who are trying to improve the handling of your Viper. I have nothing to sell you.

Leave your Viper completely stock unless it is a track-dedicated car! If you have a track car, then please read further.

Suspension set-up techniques for a production Viper continue to evolve very quickly within the Viper Racing League. This is where 95% of the research is being done. We have all been serving as guinea pigs and our cars have been science experiments for the many vendors trying to help us go faster. They (and we) are still learning and changing our opinions frequently. Next year we will think we were pretty naive today.

Changing shocks and spring rates from stock equipment will defintely improve lap times, but it requires much experimentation to determine which spring rates and shock settings produce the most significant improvements for any particular driver. For most of the VRL drivers, this is "Black Magic". They couldn't even show you where the shock adjusting screws are, let alone how to adjust them to make the car handle the way they want it to. You will have to spend many thousands of dollars on track testing and suspension consultants before you can even come close to helping yourself.

Penske and Moton shocks seem to be the favorite choice of the VRL racers, greatly outnumbering the Koni, Dynamic or JRZ. This will change in the future, and here's why and how. It will depend on which Viper vendor gets the best financial distributorship arrangement with a shock manufacturer and then spends the most amount of money and effort promoting the product as the next best thing to sliced bread. Moton wasn't in existence a couple years ago and would be unknown to the Viper community were it not for the marketing efforts of Archer Racing. Since Archer supports the VRL and is a distributor for Moton, guess which shock is being sold to the VRL racers in the greatest numbers today? I'm not saying this is a bad thing...it's simply how the world works. Unit cost and production-line consistency have determined which shocks go on our Vipers from the factory. That's why the change from Koni to Dynamic. I suspect Penske was way too expensive, but not for the factory/Oreca racecars! I love my Penskes, have raced them hard for over 5 years, and I've never had a shock failure. They are expensive (about $4,800 for a complete set with hardware and no springs), but not nearly as expensive as the time and effort required to learn how to adjust shocks of any make or brand. Don't let anybody convince you differently.

As far as springs go, the only two choices seem to be Eibach and Hypercoil. Springs are cheap( less than $100 each). Some like really stiff set ups (over 1000 LBS) and others like relatively soft set ups (under 1000 LBS). Both set ups are significantly stiffer than the stock springs. I've run spring rates as low as 300 LB and as high as 1,200 LB. Whether I run the soft or the stiff set up, there are still uncomfortable amounts of body roll and bottoming out of the shock. None of us can find a stiff enough set up or high enough ride height to keep the shocks from bottoming. This is very frustrating because when you do the calculations of load transfer and suspension travel on paper, it shouldn't be happening. The less experienced you are as a driver, the more comfortable you will be with a softer set up.

As far as control arm bushings go, the really fast guys are having success with both Delrin and mono-ball bushings. (It seems the really fast guys are fast, regardless of any equipment choice). Either choice is a vast improvement over the stock rubber bushings. I've had my Delrin bushings for 4+ years, and it's finally time to replace the bushings as they are worn. The "new trick" is to line-bore the control arms before installing the Delrin bushings. The same process is used for Mono-ball bushings. Only time will tell how much better or longer-wearing the mono-balls will be. Mono-balls are about twice as expensive. They are also the bushing of choice on the Competition Coupe.

We have more left to learn than dollars to spend.
 

HogWhisperer

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Great thread with several points of view. Thanks to the participants.


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Frank Parise:
The "new trick" is to line-bore the control arms before installing the Delrin bushings. The same process is used for Mono-ball bushings.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I can't believe Bobby Archer hasn't been mentioned yet. When I had the suspension my '99 ACR modified back in '99, line boring of the control arms was the first thing he did. That trick may be new to some but it sure isn't new to Bobby.


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>

We have more left to learn than dollars to spend.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL! Isn't that the truth!
 

ntmatter

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I've ordered a set of Delrin bushings from Autoform, and have a question. What is line-boring of the control arms? Also, can a reasonably technical guy with a decent jack and a set of wrenches (such as Yours Truly) install suspension bushings, should I take it to my Viper Tech, or should I have some other type of outfit do the install?
 

GTS Dean

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Andy,

Getting the new delrin bushings in is not a terribly difficult task. I strongly recommend having the factory bushings removed with the Viper Service Tools.

It will save you money if you remove the wishbones yourself and then take them to the dealership for bushing work. However, you will need a puller to get the half shafts out of the rear hubs first. What's your time worth? It might be best to simply let your tech do it all.
 

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