The Beast Came Unglued!!! What the heck happened?

[Flyng Low]

The Beast Came Unglued!!! What the heck happened?

This letter is not going to please you, but think what I feel like… I’ve had my beloved stock red ’94 Viper for three months, and have put about 600 miles on it, including a lot of SoCal freeways, some dark and rain. It drives harsh and loud, but the most fun you can have. It has less than 23,000 miles on it and got a clean pre-sale check-up by the local ViperTech.

(Here comes the bad part) I was driving the car north to work at LA Airport on the 8-lane divided freeway yesterday about 4am, cruising at a consistent 74mph in 6th in very light (occasional) traffic. About an hour into the trip it started raining lightly. This was not heavy rain - I didn’t even have the wipers on, although I did note a lot of spray trailing behind the car. After about 10 minutes, the rain was getting a bit heavier (still no wipers). I then noticed that my speed was dropping a few mph and I thought the engine sounded a bit flat. I slowed down to about 60mph, wondering if the water was getting into the car’s electronic ignition or something. I was adding throttle carefully but it was not speeding up as expected, just holding speed or maybe dropping speed slowly.

This could have been “night noises” but I also felt the car was suddenly tracking a bit strange – it seemed to be drifting slightly on the road in little jolts. As I re-checked the engine instruments looking for the problem (all OK), the car suddenly lurched to the left and immediately came completely unglued – spinning quickly to the left. I thought a wheel had fallen off, but I didn’t hear any grinding. As I spun quickly I hit the concrete center divider with the right-rear quarter and slid to a stop backwards against the center divider, pointing about 20 degrees into traffic the wrong way.

I reached down and turned on the flashers. A few cars went by but with a clear freeway I restarted the engine with the plan to pull myself over to the right shoulder. But as I did the U-turn, it was driving pretty well, although shuttering. I now thought I must have had a blowout, but since nothing was dragging, I went 1/4 mile at 40mph to the next exit and pulled off and into a gas station. Inspection showed four good tires and no obviously broken linkage, although the right rear tire is towed in (possibly from impact). The right rear taillight is broken and there is contact damage to the right rear fender and the right side of the rear bumper. The right exhaust cover is scrapped, as are the edges of both right wheels. The rest of the car – hood, right door, etc. looks perfect (Thank God). The car was towed to the local (San Juan Capistrano) Dodge ViperTech Dealer who may have some answers on Monday, but I can’t wait for answers. Does this sound familiar to anyone?

WHAT HAPPENED? I’m an experienced, mature, careful driver with some early racing experience. I’ve previously owned a Porsche 928 and a deTomasso Mangusta, so I’m used to powerful cars. I can think of three possibilities:

a. Maybe the engine was miss-firing and I had added excess throttle in as it caught itself – suddenly spinning the wheels on the wet road. ??? I still can’t believe I wouldn’t have caught this upset and quickly recovered. I never saw rpm above the normal 1600 rpm in 6th. The road was relatively straight at that point.

b. Maybe the shuttering and lack of power I was feeling was the fat Viper tires pushing water. As I added power it broke loose. ??? Does the Viper hydroplane in the rain at 60mph?

c. Maybe some linkage broke somewhere that made the car instantly unstable at speed, even though it can be drive at 40 mph. ??? If so, this will be found.

I’d sure appreciate someone offering some insight into this unfortunate incident. I need to talk to my insurance adjuster on Monday and feel pretty stupid right now. Of course, whatever the problem, “FLYG LOW” will be fixed and re-polished into a perfect ruby again. There’s an empty spot in my garage, and in my heart!
Thanks, Curt

 

[Bob Woodhouse]

I feel bad for you, but the experience relates to hydroplaning. It snuck up on you. Don't beat yourself up over this. Years back I went through a similar mental process with one of my cars. The car, as we all know carries huge contact patches and as the water on the road increased, may have been as little as 1/4 of an inch, you were driving just barely under the threshold of adhesion and playing with the throttle removed that last tiny bit. Once you lose adhesion in the rain it is like shuffle board. Helpless feeling huh?

 

[Vipermed 97.01]

there are two kinds of Viper owners who have spun out from hydroplaning,cold tire spinout,track events ect.THE ONES THAT HAVE AND THE ONES THAT WILL

 

[JDR]

Call it a guess, but with 10-13" tires.... I'd call it a hydroplane...

At 65mph, 3/16" or less tread could be an issue if there's water buildup on the road.

If the rear (unlikely) was hydro, your speedo would jump all over the place (because the rear had no traction). However, this is more common on black ice (been there twice - it's real freaky to take your foot off the gas and see the speedo drop to 15MPH instantly, but you're still going 55MPH - a story for another day).

I had the front "****" on me just the other day due to just a little standing water in the freeway, but it's raining cats & dogs up here (N.CA). ...a "reminder" that sometimes I have to drive with the slower traffic.

Long story short, how much tread is on those from tires?

...and NICE to hear it wasn't a hard hit!

 

[David]

I feel very bad for you -- but I'm sure that you can make the Viper as good as new in a jiffy. California freeways are notorious for their greasy loss of traction, rain grooves not withstanding. If you're on a stretch of Cal freeway that has just experienced it's first rain in a while, all of the oils which had seeped into the asphalt or concrete bubble up to the surface. This is much worse than hydroplaning -- even good rain tires have a hard time getting a grip. The Viper's tires have a reasonably good open tread pattern, which would normally work OK in the rain. But, add an oil slick, and those steamroller-wide tires will have a very hard time maintaining their grip. Up here in the Northwest, where it rains much more frequently, these oil problems are less severe. We just have to deal with heavily rutted freeways where water tends to puddle.

 

[Flyng Low]

Thanks for the feedback - not encouraging so far. Looks like I may have scr..ed the pooch on this one. If so, that is one FAST transition to shuffle board, but I would sure recognize that shudder warning next time. Can't measure the tread right now, but it looks like tread. I thought the tires looked pretty new. So what speed do you drive in the rain? Under 55 mph? Really?

Curt (life is a learning experience)

 

[Vic]

I haven't driven my Viper in the rain yet, but I have driven my C4 Vette in the rain, a heavy rain.

I didn't hydro plane, but I do remember having to push the throttle down much harder, to get the tires to plow through the water on the road. If the Vette had the torque that the Viper has, it might have been enough to break the tires loose. But that is not exactly how you described your incident, so I don't know.

Hope it all works out well with you.

 

[Paul Hawker]

Sounds like hydroplaning to me. It all fits. If original tires, they would be getting very hard after 8 years. If 23K miles there would not be much tread left. Car slowing down would mean water building up under tires, and resultant throttle application would break loose the rears.
Vipers are notorious hydroplaners. Huge tires combiled with huge torque.
Yes it happens between 55 and 65mph easily. Snakes don't like rain.
Best solution is a new set of Pilot Sports with the "aqua tread" like tread pattern.
I remember the first time it happened to me, and that scared, helpless feeling.
Glad nobody was hurt.

 

[Craig 201 MPH]

I can relate.

I got caught is a downpour in my Uncles 94 RT/10 while following my dad in His 96 GTS. The RT had the original XGT-Z's and my dad found no problem in going 75 mph with the MXX3 pilots on his car. Needless to say I got out of the car pretty ticked off. Never came close to loosing it but I could definately feel the back end floating. Not a fun thing to experience with only the softop on.

 

[jimandela]

Glad your okay.. car can be fixed.

 

[Bonkers]

Sounds like the Hydroplane Curse,

BUT, I am also reminded of when the front brake on my honda hung up. It too sent me into a field, but that was a low HP front wheel drive car doing 80. I have no explination on why it happened, but it might be something to check out...

 

[genXgts]

Been caught in the rain a few times and the word hairy comes to mind.

The car snaps into oversteer with no sensation of letting you know about the cars intention, too scary for me.

I'll drive my car whenever possible but if in the rain drive no more than 50mph anywhere and featherfoot the throttle.

Vipers + rain = trouble.

Hope all is well and your car turns out like new!

 

[Greg W]

Curt,

I feel your pain. Your tires could be actually originals. I've heard of 22K on original '94 RT/10 tires, but at 15K mine are definitely dangerous and need replacing. I've gotten into spin trouble twice, both times with alittle road wettness. It's scary to say the least.

Hope the Beast repairs well. Being a fellow San Diegan, I hope to see you on the road again soon. (I saw you last week with a healthy Beast)

Take Care,

Greg

 

[Jim Hodel]

I suppose old tires could cause a problem. I replaced the 15 year old tires (still lots of tread) on my Alfa Spider and the new tires were much better in the wet. However, I just do not understand the reports of overall poor Viper handling on wet roads.

I drive my 99 GTS all the time rain or shine and have never had a problem in the wet. The car is balanced, and has good grip. I just have to watch the throttle application. I've even run a few rainy track days and the car handled fine. I honestly believe that the Viper's wet capabilities are greater then some 'normal' car's capabilities in the dry.

Let us know if any other problems are identified when the Viper tech looks at the car.

Jim

 

[ViperGTS]

>>>Does the Viper hydroplane in the rain at 65mph? <<<

Depending on the tires, the amount of water on the road and the speed: YES!!!

When I have to drive in the rain: SLOW, SLOW, SLOW!!!

Under 55 mph, depending on the road condition and water "level" - we call it "aquaplaning".

 

[Ron Hickey]

Sorry to hear about your mishap. The OEM Michelin XGT's were notorious for their miserable wet weather tendencies. With each generation of Viper tire (MXX3 and then Pilot Sport) Michelin has improved the wet weather handling.

 

[malcoll]

I would agree with the hydroplaning consensus. Driving my 96 RT/10 home from D.C. last week....(my first time driving the Viper) I found it to have great wet road capabilities...under 55 MPH.

As soon as I went above 55 on the wet roads....... I would get hydroplaning. In fact a couple of times the Viper just changed lanes all by itself!!!

That was a little hairy, but now that I know how it responds on wet roads...... not a problem.

Good Luck,

Lance

 

[Flyng Low]

Thank you Viper drivers for your feedback -- especially nice to hear from other San Diego owners Paul and Greg. This is an amazing group! But I wish someone had done this before me and I could have read it on the forum about someone else's car and my baby were still in my garage (selfish). I've searched the forum and earlier letters to new owner questions mostly said "no problem", so I'm making my contribution to the corporate knowledge. It's 55 mph for me in the rain from now on.

I do have the Pilot Sport tires and they have good (?) tread, so THIS 55 MPH RAIN CAUTION IS FOR EVERYONE! This particular sub-club needs no more members.

I suspect David is also right that the newly-wet greasy freeway may have been an additional factor. By coincident, when I drove up the next morning to have the Viper transported, the radio warned that a car had spun out on I-5 northbound and was against the center divider facing the wrong way south of the Pico exit. That's exactly where I was and how I ended up! And after dropping the Viper off, as I drove south past the same area again there was another car turned around on the shoulder. (!)

I'll let you know if the San Juan Capistrano ViperTech Bill Rarick (is he any good?) finds anything else wrong with the car, or the insurance adjuster finds out anything. FLYG LOW will be like new again with a new taillight and a few new panels. Until then, I wish everyone a very Merry Christmas. May God continue to ride with us always.

Curt

 

[speedshftr]

with the tourqe that the viper creates,just letting off the gas and then getting back into it can easily spin you out in the rain.i learned the hard way.also rubber gets hard and loses its life after a while.extra security yourself and get some new pilots.good luck and be safe

 

[Paolo Castellano]

Flying Low, I am sorry to hear about your off road excursion. I have scanned the responses thus far and did not notice anybody mention the possibility of the freeway surface being uneven from truck groove wear patterns. I find this to also be a very different characteristic of the Viper as compared to most cars. Since the tires, both front and rear, are so much wider than any other regular car, even on completely dry pavement, the car can go over a couple of feet when the big footprint follows the groove. My father almost lost his 1997 GTS on the way back from buying it in Florida. I had warned him to watch for this and he did not. He almost spun the car @ 70 MPH. Once he recovered, I made him pull over and let me drive. I believe this, along with the other things mentioned by the other posts could have contributed to your problem. Paolo

 

[AJ]

actually what you described sounds more sudden than hydroplaning- my guess is that you hit a patch of water and the wheel "grabbed"- feels like somebody applied the driver side front brake only. did you feel a tug in the steering wheel? hydroplaning is usually very smooth and if you dont panic you have a decent chance to gain control back. however, when you hit standing water (even if only 1/5" deep and you really cant see it on the road) at speeds over 30 mph the response is nothing short of violent.

just my experience

alex
02 gts
few other cars

 

[Flyng Low]

Dear Forum, Thank you all for your feedback on what may have happened to me driving down the freeway 12/20/02. I think this must have been standing water, or a combination of hydroplaning, errant freeway grooves, and poor throttle control. I've heard other Viper drivers talk about "lift off" that sounds familiar, but I thought this was a much higher-speed phenonomum. I have done my beloved '94 a grave disservice to her right-rear quarterpanel and bumper. But she is getting new ones and will be good as new. There was no frame damage, and no sign of a pre-accident failure in the suspension. She is being fixed by an apparent miticulous craftsman Tom Carmer at Specialized Coachworks in San Juan Capistrano. I'll give you a full review on his work when he finishes the job. I looked at three excellent shops in the area and liked his capability and work for this job.

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WALL:1 VIPER:0

I'm much smarter now. I caution new (and old) Viper owners to join me at 50 mph max in the rain. The amazingly strong glue that we are used to holding these cars down in the dry seems to be water-based! These super-wide tires are just not made for wet roads. I wish someone else had told me this a month ago.

To reiterate, I was driving carefully in light rain at 65 mph on the freeway to work and suddenly I was spinning and into the center divide backwards. Your baby can be damaged just that fast.

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WHAT SHE SHOULD (AND WILL AGAIN) LOOK LIKE!

Curt

 

[Viblur]

Curt.. Please follow up with your experience w/ SJC Dodge Viper techs.. Just bought locally in Orange County and looking for a shop - thanks for the follow thru on your post - I have yet drive the GTS in the rain..

Paul

 

[Ulysses]

From your description, I would have to agree with the standing water scenario.

 

[toddt]

This was truly an amazing story.

I will keep it in mind when driving around, myself. Thanks for telling it.

On the theories as to what happened--I guess I don't have enough data to comment, but if no other problem was found in the car, it would definitely point to some sort of traction related phenomenon.


To echo what a previous poster said--spinning in the Viper is quite common.

I've spun twice:

1) Right hander, fwy onramp, dry day, coming into the corner REALLY hot, braking, braking, oops, rear end let go, spun about 100 degrees, didn't hit the concrete barrier. (thanks, God!)

2) Almost two years later and wiser, in a smooth, wet, rainy parking lot (very slick smooth surface, even dry), I came around a corner in the lot, and decided to spin the rears and let my tail swing out a bit on the exit to the turn. Something that I've done a million times in other cars (but this was the first time driving my Viper in the rain).

Well, my story turned out a lot like yours: Juice the rears just coming out of the turn, and baby, it was all over. I could not counter steer out of the skid. Not only did I slide the rears left, I almost INSTANTLY lost the fronts!! The steering wheel became a useless toy, and I began the Viper Piroette once again. Here I am, slowly spinning, and sliding in my parking lot at 7 miles per hour, watching the front of my Viper MISS a parked toyota by less than a foot before I finally slid in safe at home. 225 degree spin. (thanks, GOD!!)

That second story happened on NEARLY NEW Pilot Sports, BTW. <2000 miles on them.

 

[GTS Dean]

Curt,

Looking at your photos, your car appears to have POSITIVE camber on the rear tires. This is BAAAAD! Check for simple misalignment, or something severely bent on your lower control arms or frame rails. This could have caused or contributed to your crash.

Most unfortunate accident. Glad you are OK and your car wasn't damaged more severely.

 

[toddt]

Dean--

It looks like the negative camber is in the "after" picture on the rim that hit the divider.

As far as I can tell, the "before picture of the left rim looks good.

 

[GTS Dean]

Todd,

I stand by my previous observations. Gen 1 cars are not generally confidence inspiring, wet or dry, unless you have a strong affinity for sideways.

 

[Flyng Low]

Thanks for your observations Todd and Dean. I'll certainly have the alignment thoroughly checked and verified in the course of the repair. They are going to do that first before putting the quarter panel and rear bumper back on.

BTW - It is rather amazing to see a Viper without it's skin on. What exotic, light construction.
Curt

 

[picflight]

I am glad that the damage was superficial and you weren't injured. I have had a similar slip on the freeway in my Corvette but due to going into a curve too fast with almost bald tires.

Didn't that feel like being in an air pocket where controls are in-effective until correct resistance is encountered? I could picture myself in the same situation and going over the gauges to find the problem, only in your case there weren't any gauges for VSI and Airspeed to notice the air pocket

Ride safe, this experience has made you a better pilot!

P.S. Thanks for posting the pics.