The Official Gen IV Swing-Arm and pan group buy list

[ipetrov]

Gen 3 owners, your #3 rod bearing needs your help! It may be starving...

Well, at least if you are serious about track days or even twisty back country roads. Biggest problem is your oil pan and oil pick-up design - in long high-G sweepers oil is sloshed away from the pick-up tube, so your engine internals are fed thin air intsead of vital lubricant. As a result of the metal-to-metal contact and abnormal heat (even for a few seconds) a bearing may fail, potentially resulting in a 500 horsepower, 3000+ rpm ping-pong game within your engine block. That has happend many a time, has frustrated a ton of people, and is well documented on this forum. I have yet to read about a single case of someone who upgraded to the Gen IV components and suffered this failure.

With gen 3 warranties expiring (or doubling in price) and since winter hibernation is a good time for little upgrade projects for at least two thrids of the country, I was wondering if there would be enough of us to capture the attention of vendors and hopefully induce at least a modest discount on the parts (currently priced at roughly around $2k). I honestly haven't even talked to the supply side yet to figure out if there are any materials or packaging constraints, but thought that the demand side of the equation is more important. If there's a will, there's probably a way.

Anyway, please let me know if anyone would be interested. This is nothing binding and just an expression of preliminary indication of interest.

So far we have:

1. ipetrov
2. NO HEMI
3. swexlin...

Let's keep going, fellas! Any guests to the forum who are interested, feel free to email me at [email protected]

Ivan

 

[NO HEMI]

I would be interested!!!

 

[Allan]

I got hooked up with a vendor in Washington. It seems as he played some kind of middleman deal though, as the shipping carton came from Arrow Racing Engines in Michigan. Supposed to be surplus pans for Dodge Motorsports and the ACR-X motors. Haven't installed it yet, that'll be my early spring project before track season starts.

 

[Nader]

Got mine through Dan at Viper Specialty. He has a pretty good deal on the setup.

 

[Viper Specialty]

We can certainly make a deal on them with a group buy. Also, if not enough quantity for a group buy, I have a couple used pans and pickups I can offer at a discount- its not like they wear out! ha. This would ONLY be an option if a group-buy falls through however, I would prefer to keep them in stock for a couple shelf projects unless I happen upon a couple more.

 

[ipetrov]

Thank you, gents! Seems like the supply side's got our backs, let's get some more names on the list and start discussing specifics on pricing

 

[pdub]

How hard is it to install?

 

[ipetrov]

I haven't done it myself but recall from members who have that it's not hard and takes maybe a couple of hours, but you need a lift to get the car high up enough. See post #46 in this thread:

http://forums.viperclub.org/threads/656957-Gen-III-oiling-issues?p=3123867#post3123867

How hard is it to install?

 

[ipetrov]

Allan, good to hear you decided to pull the trigger. You either have the most durable gen III in existence, or you are the smoothest Viper driver around a racetrack

I got hooked up with a vendor in Washington. It seems as he played some kind of middleman deal though, as the shipping carton came from Arrow Racing Engines in Michigan. Supposed to be surplus pans for Dodge Motorsports and the ACR-X motors. Haven't installed it yet, that'll be my early spring project before track season starts.

 

[Tiago]

interested... I have the CC setup already... would I benefit from this in drag racing? I don't road race this car..

 

[pdub]

interested... I have the CC setup already... would I benefit from this in drag racing? I don't road race this car..

From what I understand, and I could be wrong, but it is during long sweeping turns where you run into issues with the stock gen3 pan.

 

[Viper Specialty]

interested... I have the CC setup already... would I benefit from this in drag racing? I don't road race this car..

Pretty much no. Acceleration is not the problem.

 

[ipetrov]

I know for sure that the Gen IV swing arm and pan is an improvement over the CC (CC only swings one way and is not centered well in the pan). Although the CC is definitely better than gen 3 OEM, there have been documented failures on track with it.

That being said, you most likely won't need it for drag racing. Hopefully an experienced drag racer will chime in, I'm a total noob.

interested... I have the CC setup already... would I benefit from this in drag racing? I don't road race this car..

 

[ipetrov]

I'll try to do some research on the potential resale value of the used OEM pan as an offset to the price of the upgrade. My gut feeling tells me it will be pretty close to scrap value. In terms of least desirable stock gen 3 Viper parts it's probably second only to the Michelin runcraps (3rd place goes to the cross-over pipes). Probably not much of a Viper art specimen either.

Anyways, I'll gladly share any findings thereof. Hopefully it'll at least cover shipping costs.

 

[swexlin]

I would be interested in this as well. While I don't track the car, I am the 3rd owner, and I don't know how it was used before me.

 

[Copperhead133]

I would be up to buying one as this is a problem with the Gen 3

 

[ipetrov]

Great! Not sure how to keep editing my first post, so here's the latest list:

1. ipetrov
2. NO HEMI
3. swexlin
4. Copperhead133
5...

I would be up to buying one as this is a problem with the Gen 3

 

[neo_rambo]

I'm subscribing to see what you come up with for price. That will be my help me decide

 

[swexlin]

I'm probably out due to price too, but I put my name on the list anyway. Never hurts...

 

[ipetrov]

I totally agree, neo rambo and swexlin. The whole point of this thread is to explore how far down we can push the price on these components. I'm pretty sure we could get it down to the price equivalent of a nice set of new tires, which is not that big of an investment to make in a Viper. It's hard to justify laying down $1k+ on an upgrade that doesn't even register on the butt dyno. But I've really had it with constantly focusing on the oil pressure gauge in a hard turn instead of on the apex.

Plus, a well-put together new engine (e.g. Arrow) would likely run you $14-15k, and you might take another $3k loss on top of that on resale value. A Gen IV swing-arm pick up and pan set up could be more than 10x cheaper than that.


1. ipetrov
2. NO HEMI
3. swexlin
4. Copperhead133
5. neo rambo
6...

 

[JAY]

A Break down price based on 10, 20, 30 ,40 or 50 Units Might help solidify Buyers .

 

[Allan]

Allan, good to hear you decided to pull the trigger. You either have the most durable gen III in existence, or you are the smoothest Viper driver around a racetrack

I can't say I've never had any problems, or haven't broken anything. I am definitely not nice to the car. I drive the thing balls out. ....I have been noticing the fluctuating oil gauge though, just really lucky so far. I am trying to work on being smooth, I'll have to be with the Hoosiers. Driving a Viper on the track seems like a constant learning experience, the better you get, the more you realize how much you have to learn.

 

[ipetrov]

Thanks Jay, I know you are a potential buyer, just admit it

I think it's a good idea but also game theory at its finest. Seeing a price per unit for a discount for 50 units might make the discount on just 10 seem like a rip-off and dissuade potential buyers to the point that we can't even get to a list of 10. That's why I was hoping to get to at least 10 tentative names first before talking specific discounts.

That being said, any vendor's input on your question is more than welcome!

A Break down price based on 10, 20, 30 ,40 or 50 Units Might help solidify Buyers .

 

[ipetrov]

Allan, good luck with the car and with perfecting your skills! I know confidence in the car is a huge factor in getting faster lap times, so I hope your recent purchase pays off in spades for you.

I can't say I've never had any problems, or haven't broken anything. I am definitely not nice to the car. I drive the thing balls out. ....I have been noticing the fluctuating oil gauge though, just really lucky so far. I am trying to work on being smooth, I'll have to be with the Hoosiers. Driving a Viper on the track seems like a constant learning experience, the better you get, the more you realize how much you have to learn.

 

[Viper Specialty]

Hey Guys,

Just a comment:

Near 80-90% of the max possible discount could probably be attained within the first 15 units. The fact is, there is a bottom line, and my costs don't change with quantity until we passed a point where I could actually cast a version of the pan ourselves- and that's BIG bucks. Mopar handicaps this product BIG time. As soon as they saw us selling lots of pan setups, the original pan price went from around $400 for a pan to over $1200. Rather than be reasonable on a hot-selling item, they completely slit their own throats on this product in typical Mopar fashion, causing a price increase of over 100% retail.

Basically, what I am getting at is that when there are such high costs in raw parts which I have no control over, that there is a bottom limit where it just cannot fall below. There is not a ton of profit, machining, or setup to start chipping away at with huge quantities. 3, 5 and 10 would probably be the quantity breakpoints.

 

[swexlin]

Very interesting information Dan, thanks.

 

[ipetrov]

Dan, thanks very much for yet another honest and extremely helpful post. Really helps shine a light on the shady supply-side dynamics. ***** to hear about yet another Viper tax, not to mention a 100% tax, which ironically comes from the same guys (or very close associates of the same guys) who mis-engineered the OEM pan / oiling system to begin with. It's almost like the early GT-Rs and their launch control - they give you an extremely capable toy, but if you try to enjoy it the way it was "designed" to be enjoyed, you'll most likely break it and end up paying through the nose for that.

I wonder if refurbished second-hand pans won't be a viable way to restore some free market sanity. I guess the problem with that would be that used parts suppliers would tend to push the whole engine as a package, hence a very small pool of used Gen IV pans.

The good news is that we are likely past the first two quantity breakpoints Seems like we are close to talking real numbers.

Hey Guys,

Just a comment:

Near 80-90% of the max possible discount could probably be attained within the first 15 units. The fact is, there is a bottom line, and my costs don't change with quantity until we passed a point where I could actually cast a version of the pan ourselves- and that's BIG bucks. Mopar handicaps this product BIG time. As soon as they saw us selling lots of pan setups, the original pan price went from around $400 for a pan to over $1200. Rather than be reasonable on a hot-selling item, they completely slit their own throats on this product in typical Mopar fashion, causing a price increase of over 100% retail.

Basically, what I am getting at is that when there are such high costs in raw parts which I have no control over, that there is a bottom limit where it just cannot fall below. There is not a ton of profit, machining, or setup to start chipping away at with huge quantities. 3, 5 and 10 would probably be the quantity breakpoints.

 

[TowDawg]

I agree. It blows my mind that Dodge screwed up from the beginning, and then when they know there is a real issue, they try to take advantage of the customer, instead of fix it.
The oiling issue and the window regulators have been a KNOWN issue for some time now, and Dodge has done NOTHING to take care of either. Yeah, they finally lowered the price of the window regulator, but both issues should be rectified at no cost to current owners. It's completely inexcusable to me that Dodge (knowing they *&^%ed up on the oiling system on the Gen III's) decides to up the price on a fix to the problem. At the VERY LEAST, they should be offering the Gen IV set-up to owners of Gen III cars at a discounted price, not doubling it!!! Another massive fail in the customer service department.

 

[redtanrt10]

Dan just read your post. That's BS that they chrysler upped the stock pan price from $400-$1200. I remember looking on your site a couple of months ago and seeing the current price, you sold me one for about $800 less, now I see why.


To others thinking about this upgrade, you'll need one if you take it to a road race track. One you track at speeds approaching 80%, and/or run with sticky tires like hoosiers, you're living on borrowed time with your motor. Dan's converted pan is superior to the mopar version made for the comp coupes.

 

[ipetrov]

I hope someone from Mopar/Dodge/SRT is reading this. It's never too late to change that shortsighted approach to selling the pans.

One potential justification for this 300% increase in price that I can think of (particularly given the timing of that change) is Dodge defending and promoting the Gen IV as the cure of all Gen III ills. Given the limited visual change between the generations, as well as the easy and cheap aftermarket-enabled changes to the III that could provide well above 90 additional horses, it's not that hard to see why Dodge wanted to do anything possible to induce sales of the IV. If that's indeed the case, with the new Gen V out, there's really no more need to keep protecting the Gen IV. They already gave us a wonderfully priced 150 (or less) hp bolt-on head/intake upgrade to match/exceed Gen IV performance (of course, right when the Gen IV production ended). Why can't they do the same for the damn pan (and potentially the tranny)?