The two definitions of 'moderate' (a novel, but a good read)

[Y2K5SRT]

The two definitions of \'moderate\' (a novel, but a good read)

Greetings and salutations fellow Viper owners, admirers, and the casual passerby. My name is Chris Marshall and I am a moderator on this site. As moderators go, I am the new kid on the block. Kinda learning the ropes and seeing what the rules of the road are around here. Things have been pretty darn exciting here lately, not unlike a plane crash. That isn't necessarily a good thing.

I decided to look up "moderate" just to make sure I was doing the right thing and actually found a couple definitions. Both seem to apply here, so here you go:

1 mod·er·ate (mod'e·rât) verb
To lessen the violence, intensity, or extremeness of.

2 mod·er·ate (mod'er·it) adjective
Avoiding extremes of behavior or expression: observing reasonable limits

Now, when I first found this site over two years ago, it was a pretty informative place to visit. There was a certain camaraderie that really impressed the heck out of me. Indeed, when I first started lurking here, the big talk was about the upcoming VOI 5 in Las Vegas. Wow, did it sound like owning a Viper would be a BLAST! Great people, great cars, and a ton of different venues to enjoy both. I couldn't decide which I would do first: Drag race, road race, autocross, or cruise by a car show. All I knew was that I wanted to meet some of these great Viper owners as they seemed very friendly and really loved their cars. If I was going to drop this much money on a car, I wanted to know it was the right one for me.

If you have come by here lately with the same intent, you probably read a few things that weren't really that friendly and didn't exactly endear you to this awesome car. Indeed, that Z06 is probably looking pretty good with all the negative posts that have cropped up of late. Don't be discouraged, it's not usually like this. The Viper is the flagship of the American production arm of DaimlerChrysler and the VCA is touted heavily by Dodge and supported by same. Pick up any Viper brochure and you will see a reference to the VCA. Go to any VOI and just guess who is footing the majority of the bill. Now, let's say that Dodge has invited potential owners, investors, and even the media to stop by and tour the Viper home - the VCA web site. It is indeed one of the most popular car sites on the Net with MILLIONS of hits. Imagine Dodge opening the door to their beautiful home to show their guests how wonderful the ownership experience is - and then being promptly hit by a rotten tomato thrown by one of the residents in the house (as they fought with another). It would embarrass the host and reflect poorly on every other resident, guilty or not.

Well gang, I will tell you this: I personally enjoy some of the humor, even when it is a bit on the edge. I don't enjoy the insults or put downs. I read a post and ask myself if that person would say that to the other if they were face to face. Not likely. Indeed, they would probably shrug off their differences and start talking Vipers over a cold one like they were old friends. That's what makes owning a Viper so great: The Zaino freaks, the 10 second speedsters (and those Texas 9 guys), and the twisties guys with their monster brakes ALL get along in a group setting. It's called the Viper Club of America.

It's too easy to let your emotions get the better of you when it is just you and your keyboard. Insulting someone's heritage, wealth (or lack thereof), racing experience, waxing experience, spelling, or even their business is effortless from the comfort of your home in front of a computer screen. I decided to call a few folks around the country this past week just to find out more about who owns Vipers. Many times I would hear, "Yeah, so-and-so is the NICEST guy you would ever want to meet in person. I just don't know where he comes up with this stuff when he posts to the board." It's the keyboard factor: Your PC will never be insulted or hurt by what you type.

So, as the "new" moderator around here I will tell you what I am going to do:

1. If a reply contains something that is insulting, foul, or just plain mean-spirited, I will edit the post or delete it. I won't post the reason, as I know the poster KNOWS what he or she did when they posted it.

2. If I delete or move an entire thread, I WILL tell you why I did it (I always do).

3. I will take the time to e-mail you (assuming your e-mail works) and tell you what's up. You are welcome to disagree and I would ask that you do so by e-mail as well.

4. I will not "protect" ANYBODY, including tuners, advertisers, or my mom (I hope she isn't reading this). If a part has failed or a service not performed, I have no problem with a FACTUAL post. Not factual? Don't expect it to last long. Now, I would STRONGLY suggest you contact someone in the VCA or even a moderator here if you have a legitimate beef BEFORE you post. It might surprise you to know that the moderators/admin have successfully stepped in offline to try and resolve disputes before they ever came to this forum. I'll let you look up that definition of "moderator" yourself.

5. I will move stuff over to the proper forum occasionally. This is no big deal either way, as most people read Off Topic as often as the main discussion forum. Don't take it personally.

One final (whew!) bit of advice: If you positively, absolutely MUST post some great kill story in your neighborhood, try the Kill Stories Section at Off-Topic.Net (disclaimer - this site is very, very rowdy). Yep, you will even find a Viper kill story on the first page and it is a fun read. You will then read how it denigrates into an attack on the poor kid that raced the Viper - and not even related to the race or the cars themselves (sound familiar?). If you don't want to trade barbs with import owners or other makes and models, head over to Tom's BTR Viper Message Board and say exactly how you feel on any subject you like. Tom is a good guy and he generally doesn't mind what you post. Oh, and don't get me wrong, everybody has exceeded the speed limit (by accident of course) or thumped that Corvette outside of an approved track event, but there is a time and place to brag about it besides the official site supported by Dodge. I would be willing to bet that Winchester Rifles would not be thrilled to hear about the deer you just poached in the off season (or worse) - it really doesn't help their cause.

If you want to read or post about the Viper ownership experience, you have come to the right place. You will get more quality feedback on this site than anywhere else in the world. Want to read about racing brakes and how they work? You will find it here. Want to find out what the best temperature to wax your car is? Here again. Want to have a pleasant conversation with folks about the Dodge Viper? There is no better place unless it is face to face. This site should be a fun and informative place for people to visit, both owners and nonowners alike. It is my job as a moderator to help keep it that way. Please help me in this very reasonable goal.

Chris (whose fingers are bleeding from typing too much)

 

[PMUM]

Re: The two definitions of \'moderate\' (a novel, but a good read)

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Y2KGTS:

If you have come by here lately with the same intent, you probably read a few things that weren't really that friendly and didn't exactly endear you to this awesome car. Indeed, that Z06 is probably looking pretty good with all the negative posts that have cropped up of late.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What??? Are you really trying to tell us that adults with 7 stacks of 'high society' to blow on a car are going to make their decision based on the amount of warm fuzzy Zaino pointers floating around a website??? You're telling us that you think Dodge is gonna lose Viper sales because people are running smack? In Car and Driver I must've missed the statistic "ratio of NIIIIIIIICE people versus BAAAAAD people in the website" category.

Message boards are like a free society. The board does a fine job of self moderation. When somebody comes in here and brags about dusting a Huyabusa he gets "smacked" on for being stupid and is unually humbled. When Ernie J dropped his "novices are harder on brakes than advanced drivers..." everybody came out of the woodwork to argue with him. Because some people use a bit of wit and humor (AKA smack) to aid in making an argument entertaining doesn't mean that they're being confrontational. It also works both ways. Last week the "smack talkers" were getting worked over (read--moderated) by most of the room for being supportive of street racing.

I bet if you took all of the guys on BOTH sides that were running smack and put us in a room we'd all be buddies tomorrow because we all have a common goal---to win an argument. Nobody is taking this personally. In this case Sean and Ken might be bitter, but they'd be bitter whether we all used "smack" or just plain logic because they both have a financial interest at stake. I'm sure Ernie J isn't looking to give JonB a "minor tune up" any time soon. We're all adults here. If we don't like what we read, let us choose not to read it.

I'm glad that when you came to this board you were impressed by the love in the room. That doesn't mean that your warm, fuzzy feeling was shared by all of us. I've been on this board (and the old one) almost since I bought my first Viper 3 1/2 years ago, but haven't been active until recently. Why? Because when I first checked it out I thought all Viper owners were just big dorks. I thought of Viper owners like we think of Porsche or Ferrari drivers...arrogant, stuck up guys who never drive their cars like they were meant to be driven. I imagined a bunch of people from the chain wearing, too rich for the IROC-Z crowd. I just checked in every couple of months to find out when the track events were. If, before I dropped my 70 Gs, I were basing my decision on websites I'd have bought another Mustang because those guys are entertaining.

Two years ago when I went to the East for my first nonwestern Viper Days event, guess who my only immediate friends were? The East Coast pansies that responded to the smack I ran on this board. Dean W., Seth P., Alan M., Evil Joe etc. were my internet arch enemies, but also the only East Coast guys I'd hang out with and talk to most of the time. I became friends with Kid solely because of his ability to dole out a sound thrAshing while being funny as hell. Don't think for a second your dream board is all of ours just because you got knighted a moderator.

That's a great manifesto you posted and you make some valid points, but don't use your power to cram your idea of board utopia down all of our throats and tell us it's the best thing for the Viper community. Last time I checked it isn't 1984 (although if you saw Ken's haircut you might think so). You're right, it is your job to keep this place a fun and informative place for people to visit. Not all of us find technical tidbits fun after 3 years of the same questions. Why do you think that every time there's "action" everybody jumps into the melee? Because even the guys that hate smack find it at least interesting. If they don't let them go back to their technical posts, we'll leave them alone. When was the last time you saw us jump into a Zaino post and ruin their tea party?

I'll be the first to admit that things (smack) often get out of hand. If you find a post that goes blatantly over the line, edit the offensive material out. Or if you have to, delete the post. Canning a whole thread without any explanation isn't the solution. Sometimes I wonder if my mother, Mrs. "Because I said so" Mumford is moderating.

Further, when was the last time that WE, the VCA members on this board, called for more moderators? I've seen moderators say that we need more moderators, but adults can make their own decisions without you protecting us. Sure, there are gonna be a few that want this board to be 100% NIIIIICE, but there are more that want you to leave it alone. I'm not advocating lobbing F-bombs, racial slurs and personal insults, just being treated like an adult would be fine.

Today's 'incidents' should've been bundled up into one single thread, dumped to Off-Topic and left alone. Nobody was violating any rules; there were no personal attacks, and it was rated PG. The reason why it spread into 5 different posts was because of the moderators killing threads. If that many people are that interested let it run it's course. Also, where in the Moderator Handbook does it say that you become the Judge Judy of the internet? If so, can I be Officer Byrd? As a consumer I want to know who got ripped off, who just thinks they got ripped off and who's just being an "internet whiner". I think we can figure out who's presenting "factual" information just as easily as you can unless you've got some special decoder ring. I'd hate to think I got fleeced because the last guy didn't speak up after his fleecing because it was gonna get "moderated". Tuner nonsense has been on this board since day one and since 90% of us have some sort of bolt-on or tuner part, we want all of the information possible. Did you ever stop to think that if we have the right to complain when we're unhappy that maybe, just maybe tuners will keep us happy???

So there's my way overly long (hopefully longer than yours!) explanation for why you should give the members of the VCA (us) even more latitude. The moderator that moderates least moderates best.

WAR NOVELS!

 

[RECOIL]

Re: The two definitions of \'moderate\' (a novel, but a good read)

Wow -- there are two sides to a coin! &lt;grin&gt;

I can see good points on both sides. I used to run a very popular messaging system and often moderated posts.

I stopped though. When you moderate, you become an author of information. When you do not, you are a distributor of information (the service itself).

As an author, you (the service provider) can be held accountable. As a distributor, you cannot. At least that's what my attorney indicated.

I just thought I'd throw that in there.

Steve

"Why can't we all just get along?" - R. King

 

[Tenney]

Re: The two definitions of \'moderate\' (a novel, but a good read)

Chris, feel free to correct me for any misinterpretation, but from your post I come away with the impression that this is DC's site and therfore we are expected to conduct ourselves as representatives of the corporation.

If this is so, I'd like a health care and benefits package in addition to the 3/36,000 that came with the car. I, perhaps falsely, had been under the impression that I am a customer not an employee and that this is a CLUB site. That DC does support the club and the site in some capacity is a great thing for us and smart business for them. If DC chooses to censor points of view presented on this site based upon what a moderator thinks Chrysler might think a potential future customer might think, well maybe that's not such a great idea. For us or for business.

If my vote counts, I'm in favor of letting any obscenity-free point of view stand. Personally, while I didn't agree with everyone's take, I think the Roe V Kenny issue was moderating itself pretty well. And only when an entire thread was plucked (again without explanation) did the topic begin to run into multiple threads.

Oh, and speaking of redundant threads, will this become "PG" thread round 2? Time will tell, I guess.

 

[Joseph Houss]

Re: The two definitions of \'moderate\' (a novel, but a good read)

Here we go again.....

This OFFICIAL VCA WEBSITE was designed with specific goals in mind. It's intellectual content (can I even say that anymore) was originally conceived to focus on VIPER RELATED facts, history, and technical issues. YOUR VCA officers (both Regionally AND Nationally) agreed that this site should be offered with the clear intent of KEEPING IT FOCUSED on those topics. At the last Officers Meeting, less than a month ago, after the first "volley" of "spam vs nospam" logic was set in motion, we once again inquired as to whether the existing philosophy should be maintained, and the vote was a unanimous YES!!! It was quite clear that the majority wants (no, demands) that this site stay a resource for Viper related material.

Any off-topic discussions will be moved to that area. Any posts that go "outside the box" (see the rules of the site) will be deleted. No more discussions on this topic...this is like a bad Howard Stern shtick.... it's absolutely redundant and isn't at all entertaining.

Big Jim is actually correct... if you feel your "urge for complete freedom" on the site should be addressed, then call your regional VCA President, sit down and talk with him/her and he/she can then communicate the big picture of what their region wants to your National Officers, JR Thompson, Dodge, Howard Stern.....whoever!

Chris is a welcome addition to the moderating staff, and he has been an asset to this website for years (he made all those that didn't attend VOI feel like they were there!) with his daily updates and pictures, entertained us with his Viper enthusiasm and reports, and clearly ENJOYED the existing logic that we used for filtering through the spams.

Yours Truly,
Barney Fife (beat 'ya to it Mumford!)

 

[MES]

Re: The two definitions of \'moderate\' (a novel, but a good read)

Y2KGTS I agree with just about your entire post, it sounds reasonable. So you get a thumbs up from me.

 

[motomike]

Re: The two definitions of \'moderate\' (a novel, but a good read)

This sounds like when the government tries to step in to take control of something and only makes things worse.

No one will ever win this battle. This board is one big melting ***. Some have mentioned boring repeat topics, yet some of these topics may be important and valuable to some folks. Why not handle this issue in a different manner, like having more folders to organize all the postings. Thoses who wanta' read smack can go to that area. Those who wanta' compare their cars to others can, while those who want racing information can go to that area and those who are after those repeat, boring technical items can. Isn't the search capability great. Granted I agree that all this can be done without nasty, rude or vulger language.

end.

 

[Frank Parise]

Re: The two definitions of \'moderate\' (a novel, but a good read)

Chris, I couldn't agree with you more. I believe the "silent majority" of VCA members truly appreciate your philosophy and tone. I thank you and the many other volunteers for trying to improve the quality of our web site.

Perhaps we could have a less serious "smack" room where those so inclined could go to pound on each other. Dodge representatives could be warned in advance that this room is intended purely for comic relief and is frequented by some of our more humorous contributors.

 

[Y2K5SRT]

Re: The two definitions of \'moderate\' (a novel, but a good read)

Geez, that sucker from PMUM is almost as long as my orginal post. We really have to find something more exciting to do with our lives... (insert dreaded

here) I'll attempt to reply as best as I can to the individual points. Grab an easy chair and a cold one:

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
What??? Are you really trying to tell us that adults with 7 stacks of 'high society' to blow on a car are going to make their decision based on the amount of warm fuzzy Zaino pointers floating around a website??? You're telling us that you think Dodge is gonna lose Viper sales because people are running smack? In Car and Driver I must've missed the statistic "ratio of NIIIIIIIICE people versus BAAAAAD people in the website" category.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think that the purchase of a new car incorporates several factors. Many that will spend this amount of coin will research the car very heavily. Just look at the number of "guests" cruising the site vs. members at any one time and you figure a couple of them are probably thinking about buying a Viper. Now, will they make a decision based solely on what they read here? Pretty darn unlikely. However, for those that are on the fence (and there are a lot of them), this board serves as a place to experience, just a little bit, of what owning a Viper is like. Wander into the wrong thread where some guy posts an innocent, but uneducated comment, and you may very well see a rather nasty pile up that was completely unsolicited. Not very endearing to the new guy or gal.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Message boards are like a free society. The board does a fine job of self moderation. When somebody comes in here and brags about dusting a Huyabusa he gets "smacked" on for being stupid and is unually humbled. When Ernie J dropped his "novices are harder on brakes than advanced drivers..." everybody came out of the woodwork to argue with him. Because some people use a bit of wit and humor (AKA smack) to aid in making an argument entertaining doesn't mean that they're being confrontational. It also works both ways. Last week the "smack talkers" were getting worked over (read--moderated) by most of the room for being supportive of street racing.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I, undoubtedly more than anybody except maybe Vipermad, enjoy the posts. I find them funny as hell for the most part. I then take a step back and try to put myself in the position of the smackee. Often I am being publicly humiliated for trying to state my opinion or thoughts on some subject. I may be getting slammed for defending someone, right or wrong. The key here is that it is directed at an individual and not an idea. Disagreement is one thing, insulting is another. Funny from one angle, but pretty demeaning from another.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I bet if you took all of the guys on BOTH sides that were running smack and put us in a room we'd all be buddies tomorrow because we all have a common goal---to win an argument. Nobody is taking this personally. In this case Sean and Ken might be bitter, but they'd be bitter whether we all used "smack" or just plain logic because they both have a financial interest at stake. I'm sure Ernie J isn't looking to give JonB a "minor tune up" any time soon. We're all adults here. If we don't like what we read, let us choose not to read it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There is where I think you are dead wrong. We know who the accomplished smack talkers are. Those that understand it admire it for it's great technique and general writing skills (can't say any one of the "usual suspects" is a dummy). What you don't know is how the guy on the other end feels. How can you? If he or she is unable to come back with a witty comeback or attempts to defend their view poorly, they are promptly skewered and thrown to the wolves. For those uneducated in smack, it can be a gruesome spectacle and not one that is always enjoyable.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I'm glad that when you came to this board you were impressed by the love in the room. That doesn't mean that your warm, fuzzy feeling was shared by all of us. I've been on this board (and the old one) almost since I bought my first Viper 3 1/2 years ago, but haven't been active until recently. Why? Because when I first checked it out I thought all Viper owners were just big dorks. I thought of Viper owners like we think of Porsche or Ferrari drivers...arrogant, stuck up guys who never drive their cars like they were meant to be driven. I imagined a bunch of people from the chain wearing, too rich for the IROC-Z crowd. I just checked in every couple of months to find out when the track events were. If, before I dropped my 70 Gs, I were basing my decision on websites I'd have bought another Mustang because those guys are entertaining.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't really disagree too much here. I love to race (all venues) and found that it was pretty topical at the time I started visiting (April of 1999). Norman knows I disagree with his 800-mile-per year philosophy, but I don't bang on him for it. Nor do I drop veiled insults referring to that type of owner, even though I could never be like that. I really liked the camaraderie I found and the timing was excellent for me to start browsing: What better way to get fired up about buying a car than just before a Viper Owner Invitational? Since then, I race a lot and my car is quicker because of the Zaino (yes, a feeble attempt at humor).

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Two years ago when I went to the East for my first nonwestern Viper Days event, guess who my only immediate friends were? The East Coast pansies that responded to the smack I ran on this board. Dean W., Seth P., Alan M., Evil Joe etc. were my internet arch enemies, but also the only East Coast guys I'd hang out with and talk to most of the time. I became friends with Kid solely because of his ability to dole out a sound thrAshing while being funny as hell. Don't think for a second your dream board is all of ours just because you got knighted a moderator.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Whoa, whoa big fella! I am not enforcing my view of a perfect board by any means. My view would include various smack talking, a bikini section, and other stuff you could tolerate. HOWEVER, I know my role here and what the vision is of the organization that runs this board. I pride myself in trying to adapt to the crowd at hand. I don't wear my Dockers and polo shirt to go drag racing (my beat up "I'll Race For Beer" shirt is popular) and I don't wear my jeans and t-shirt to a concourse event. Try me over in another site sometime and I may surprise you. Here I will stick to the Viper experience and how to make it even more enjoyable.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>That's a great manifesto you posted and you make some valid points, but don't use your power to cram your idea of board utopia down all of our throats and tell us it's the best thing for the Viper community. Last time I checked it isn't 1984 (although if you saw Ken's haircut you might think so). You're right, it is your job to keep this place a fun and informative place for people to visit. Not all of us find technical tidbits fun after 3 years of the same questions. <FONT COLOR="red">Why do you think that every time there's "action" everybody jumps into the melee?</FONT c> Because even the guys that hate smack find it at least interesting. If they don't let them go back to their technical posts, we'll leave them alone. When was the last time you saw us jump into a Zaino post and ruin their tea party?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The problem is that "everybody" really is a pretty small group. Sure, the Texas guys smack it out with the Jersey guys and it stays pretty well confined. Most read the posts and try to stay out of the mud. Look at many of the posts in the "Roe/Adelberg" threads: They are largely from the same people going back and forth at each other with no real meaningful insight. The few posts that objectively address the technical issues (from BOTH sides) generally ignore the smack. Even still, they get drawn into the smack talk and eventually drowned out, their good observations (right or wrong) overshadowed by the comment that they are an idiot or some other such thing.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I'll be the first to admit that things (smack) often get out of hand. If you find a post that goes blatantly over the line, edit the offensive material out. Or if you have to, delete the post. Canning a whole thread without any explanation isn't the solution. Sometimes I wonder if my mother, Mrs. "Because I said so" Mumford is moderating.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Do you know if she is available? Already this is a lot harder than I thought... (grin)

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Further, when was the last time that WE, the VCA members on this board, called for more moderators? I've seen moderators say that we need more moderators, but adults can make their own decisions without you protecting us. Sure, there are gonna be a few that want this board to be 100% NIIIIICE, but there are more that want you to leave it alone. I'm not advocating lobbing F-bombs, racial slurs and personal insults, just being treated like an adult would be fine.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, what I would be willing to bet is that most would favor a nice PG/PG-13 board with some meaningful insight into the ownership experience. The occasional barb is fine, especially when it is between two people that know each other (the famed Mumford/Adelberg wars). Ever been to a baseball game? Invariably you get some guy (or gal) a few rows away that prides themselves in yelling the loudest. Usually if it is a guy, he will have his shirt off no matter what the temperature is. They may be foul mouthed or just mean spirited (often yelling at the batter, "YOU ****!") What do we slightly more reserved people do? Nothing. Yelling back only doubles the volume, while a polite request generally makes the guy (or gal) yell even louder - only with one eye on you to see how you react. Like any baseball game (well, I have never been to one in New York), the vast majority here are pretty well behaved and occasionally yell or stand up when the situation warrants it. Make it 90% NIIIICE instead of the 10% some seem to advocate.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Today's 'incidents' should've been bundled up into one single thread, dumped to Off-Topic and left alone. Nobody was violating any rules; there were no personal attacks, and it was rated PG. The reason why it spread into 5 different posts was because of the moderators killing threads. If that many people are that interested let it run it's course. Also, where in the Moderator Handbook does it say that you become the Judge Judy of the internet? If so, can I be Officer Byrd? As a consumer I want to know who got ripped off, who just thinks they got ripped off and who's just being an "internet whiner". I think we can figure out who's presenting "factual" information just as easily as you can unless you've got some special decoder ring. I'd hate to think I got fleeced because the last guy didn't speak up after his fleecing because it was gonna get "moderated". Tuner nonsense has been on this board since day one and since 90% of us have some sort of bolt-on or tuner part, we want all of the information possible. Did you ever stop to think that if we have the right to complain when we're unhappy that maybe, just maybe tuners will keep us happy???<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<FONT size="3">Agreed 110%!</FONT s> As I stated in my original post a mile up, they should have a right to post about a bad experience as long as it is based on fact. I will not defend any tuner and I haven't yet. I have yet to use one for anything substantial. The problem with these various threads was that they <u>ALL</u> turned into pie throwing contests. The points had been made very early on, yet the posts kept piling up. You had JonB fighting with ErnieJ, the California posse fighting with ALL CAPS, and everybody else wondering WHAT ABOUT THE BRAKES???

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>So there's my way overly long (hopefully longer than yours!) explanation for why you should give the members of the VCA (us) even more latitude. The moderator that moderates least moderates best.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey, mine is longer now.

Oh, and just so Kid and BigJim don't feel ignored:

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Written by BigJim:
I don't agree with the united front that the moderators, VCA officials and other upper echelon people in the Viper community present. They are resolutely opposed to anything resembling the notion of kills, street racing, etc. being represented on this site. The reasons for this that I have been given do in fact center around the VCA's close relationship with D/C.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Simple analogy, even if a bit extreme: Nice firearms site has a message board. The main sponsor of the site is Remington, a firearms maker. They allow their name and logos to be used freely there. Somebody posts, "Hey! I just killed the mayor with my Remington!" Do you think Remington is going to high five the guy and say "All right man! Here, let's make a folder so everybody can tell us who they shot." Extreme example, but simple in the fact that STREET RACING IS ILLEGAL. Go see the Fast and the Furious (I kinda liked it) - illegal there too, complete with police cars, crashes, etc. Please don't get me wrong, I am as guilty as the next guy. I just don't publicize it on the site sponsored by the manufacturer that built the car responsible for those illegal "kills".

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Written by Kid97:
As far as the Moderation Manifesto goes, basically this new moderator views himself as the new sheriff in town and he knows what's best for us. Fact is, by deciding what is "insulting" or "mean spirited" and editing such posts accordingly, the "moderator" is really editorializing and, as such, presenting only his views by the act of removing contrary or controversial opinions.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Au contraire! I most certainly don't know what is best for myself, much less every person that comes here to read or to post. No badge, no glory, and not a single pat on the back from myself. It's pretty simple: The guys that run this site (and you can decide who they are for yourself) told me what is good, bad, and grey in their eyes. I look for bad and fix it. When I find grey I try to deal with it as fairly as possible. It's not always the right decision, as Ken, Paul and I have discussed. I am trying to do what is the in the best interest of EVERYBODY, including the smackers, while maintaining the tone set forth by my "bosses" here on the board. Oh, and now I want a raise too. (FYI, it pays nothing unless you are a *********)

Peace out.

 

[PMUM]

Re: The two definitions of \'moderate\' (a novel, but a good read)

Chris, I'm going to concede checkmate on the length of your post. No mas. While I'm a typing phenom, I don't have it in me to bang you on this anymore. The one thing you always overlook is that the recipient of the thrAshing almost always started the skirmish. I will, however, point out that it was pretty underhanded of you to win the largest post award by gravytraining my whole post. I'm just glad you live in KC so I won't have to watch you & lil' Whoadie compete to gravytrain the RV lifestyle.

Frank, you can live in fear of Dodge....errrr Mercedes but last time I checked I was the customer. I'm sure Dodge....errrrr Mercedes isn't gonna shut down the VCA and the board because I lofted a scud at someone who called me out. Just let them know I've got an E55 and they'll be so impressed at my coolness, they'll keep Dodge alive for a few extra years before making them party with Oldsmobile in the great dealership in the sky.

Well, I've gotta save my fingers for an epic blast headed for the Corvette forum kill sight.

 

[brett]

Re: The two definitions of \'moderate\' (a novel, but a good read)

Chris,

Take a break smokey fingers. I remember contacting you waaay back after your trip to the DC to get your baby...

Remember? You took the first pictures of the "new" steel grey Viper, it just so happened to be my ACR. My second Viper.

Look at you now all grown up and moderating...I'm feeling a little verklempt. Nice work! It's nice to see that Mumford's not the only one that makes up for lack of quality with quantity. I say, I say...that's a joke son! I wanted to point out that you stated, (can't say any one of the "usual suspects" is a dummy).

Well, I am and I don't appreciate you lumping me in with those fifty-cent-word-slinging bandits!

They ****!

Now that I've taken both sides can I moderate?

Thanks again for the pictures.


WAR WORDY WORD STUFF !

 

[HogWhisperer]

Re: The two definitions of \'moderate\' (a novel, but a good read)

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Frank Parise:
Chris, I couldn't agree with you more. I believe the "silent majority" of VCA members truly appreciate your philosophy and tone. I thank you and the many other volunteers for trying to improve the quality of our web site.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Here, here! I couldn't agree more.


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
Perhaps we could have a less serious "smack" room where those so inclined could go to pound on each other. Dodge representatives could be warned in advance that this room is intended purely for comic relief and is frequented by some of our more humorous contributors.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey, now that's an idea. We could call it the WAR room.



<FONT COLOR="#ff0000" SIZE="1" FACE="Verdana, Arial">This message has been edited by Paul Bilberry 99 ACR on 07-06-2001 at 09:30 PM</font>

 

[Vipergtsbob]

Re: The two definitions of \'moderate\' (a novel, but a good read)

Chris,
Excellent Job. You actually outworded yourself. I agree with the oft repeated statement that some of these smack posts are indeed entertaining. Bottom line is we all have too much time on our hands if we can devote a couple of hours a day to smack-resmack-repeatsmack-respondsmack-rebuttalsmack and now, a whole new subspecie--the"extended novella smack post" decrying the ethics and moderation of smack. Guys, who really gives a **** .
Chris, BTW, do you really feel two coats of Z1 are preferable as an undercoat for applying Z2 ?? and on and on and on.........
Goodnight Chet......
Smackless in New Jersey

 

[Kid97GTS]

Re: The two definitions of \'moderate\' (a novel, but a good read)

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RECOIL:


As an author, you (the service provider) can be held accountable. As a distributor, you cannot. At least that's what my attorney indicated.


<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmmm, now we are getting to something interesting.... Those **** attorneys, though, never trust 'em.

As far as the Moderation Manifesto goes, basically this new moderator views himself as the new sheriff in town and he knows what's best for us. Fact is, by deciding what is "insulting" or "mean spirited" and editing such posts accordingly, the "moderator" is really editorializing and, as such, presenting only his views by the act of removing contrary or controversial opinions. I think we can all agree that there may be a small segment of posts that are obscene or blatantly offensive to a particular class. Fine, delete those whack posts, but to have editorial reign over the other 98% of posts seems a bit extreme.

Not that my viewpoint will likely have any impact on the editorial pen of our group of proctors, errrrr moderators - I just thought I'd put it forth.

 

[RoyV101621]

Re: The two definitions of \'moderate\' (a novel, but a good read)

Late to the party but here it is.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
I would be willing to bet that Winchester Rifles would not be thrilled to hear about the
deer you just poached...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
My mother only uses Skol, Old Style & Browning.
Having hill people(PC for hillbilly) background makes me overly sensitive.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
What do we slightly more reserved people do? Nothing.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Just sit take your medicine. Did we Viper owners earn our Vipers by letting
things happen to us. <FONT size="4">No,</FONT s> it’s not in our nature. Now I’ll take my turn.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
with one eye on you to see how you react.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
My last deleted post upset me because it was a factual post which was Viper related,
did not contain personal attacks and contain no vulgarity, that is, unless your first name is
Damlier. I believe the post was nuked because it didn't provide service to Dodge. To put
it as a good friend put it for me, "I've owned a lot of high-end sports cars and this one is
the most fun to drive, but we are all telling one another we love the emperors new
clothes."

<FONT size="1">If this post must be edited, please edit from this point.</FONT s>

Let me tell you a little story about poor dinning experience I had.

My wife and I wanted to do some fine dinning so I went to the publications to select a
five star restaurant. After carefully researching everything available, I selected a five star
just downtown. This was a new restaurant so I had no one to ask about there experiences
there.

The steward and wait staff where so cordial and polite. The surroundings glimmered
like a ruby is the sun. I was initially, so completely impressed.

But after the meal was served I was not so impressed.

My plate was chipped. When I told the steward the plate was chipped he apologized
and repaired the plate. New crack appeared so the plate was replaced.

My fork was bent so I asked for a new fork.

My spoons were corroded so I asked for new ones. The steward felt that I was asking
for more that I deserved. He felt that if he polished them that was all that was needed,
but with a little persuasion, I received two new spoons.

My Filet Minot was burnt. The waiter wanted to trim the edges. I had to insist to the
steward that the Filet be returned to the kitchen.

When I picked up my fork poked my now-perfectly-cooked meal the fork exploded
like a rose dipped in liquid nitrogen. I was told a new fork will cost me $50. I left the
restaurant and came back with my own fork that I bought for $25.

I’m still at my table.

I now have made friends with other that have had meals at different tables or made
reservations to return. Each of them has had some sort of experience of one sort or
another.

I don’t know about you but, I don’t like a twist of lemon in my water. If you are going
to flavor the water, that is fine, but don’t hind the fact that it is flavored. You don’t
know. I may even be allergic to lemon.

529 words - take that !