Using Stoptech Big brakes on a 2000 GTS

[Hirkophoto]

Did you use the Daves BB set up for you kit? Did you use a proportion valve for front and rear?
Cost? Were did you buy them etc?

 

[Tom F&L GoR]

Take the old brakes off and before you is everything to put the new ones on.
Purchase only two pieces; left caliper and right caliper. Takes 1 hour.

Brevity = Clarity


For a little bling, still have one set black brake covers, many more red covers - your choice and free with purchase while they last. My phone number, performance data, installation instructions, pix of covers, other advantages and details all listed on the website.

 

[bushido]

Did you use the Daves BB set up for you kit? Did you use a proportion valve for front and rear?
Cost? Were did you buy them etc?

No its not Dave's BB setup. Valaya Racing did the work for me. I do have a proportional valve up front ..

You must be registered for see images attach

 

[Hirkophoto]

Looks nice. You have an approximate cost for the brake job?

 

[bushido]

Looks nice. You have an approximate cost for the brake job?

It's been a while, so I forgot how much parts and labor was. Give Valaya Racing a call.

(408) 297-1990

 

[Hirkophoto]

Thanks for all the posts. I had some great discussions with Jon B and with Steve Ruiz at Stoptech. Here is what I found out in a nut shell from both gentlemen.
With the Dave's BB kit and everything that is needed and included in that upgrade using the SRT calipers all the way around. I will need to use longer wheel studs and spacers for my 18" OEM dish viper wheels. Also the main problem with this 4 wheel upgrade is that the SRT rear caliper will need the proportion valve. This valve turns back the performance of the rear caliper so it does not over brake in the rear. Your taking a brake system that was not designed for the car and putting it on and making it work.
The Stoptech kit was designed specifically for the Viper and has been tested and proven to be a superior brake over names like Brembo by car and driver. They do not require valves for brake bias because the system was created for the car and OEM brake booster etc. I am in the process of checking the fit but I am told there is no problem.
Also the six piston in front has some advantages. There is a bit more weigh because of increased pad material but there is also longer pad life and rotor life because of the design of the caliper. Generally they use the six piston for endurance racing applications because of the longer pad & rotor life but it is also used in road racing applications too. The six piston does not give any more braking then their four piston set up. However the six piston allows for easier fit because of the way the caliper is made and helps fit the OEM wheels. The rear parking brake is relocated as well and uses a 3 bolt hanger as apposed to two in most other applications.
I'm sure I forgot some of the stuff they told me but in my discussions they helped me understand my options.
Hirk

 

[GTSnake]

With Dave's kit you need to do some cutting and grinding, do the Stoptechs require the same?

 

[dave6666]

...the SRT rear caliper will need the proportion valve.

Another reason to have ABS Tom & Chuck

Anyway, one phone call got me all of these parts.

Simply... not... puzzled by that.

So, I would understand not wanting to re-plumb for the pro valve, but there are many choices that do not require it. Tom's included. Way cheaper than any other option including of course the Dave's kit like I have.

I think in order of cost...

Tom's 40mm kit, Stoptech, and the the SRT upgrade. You will probably be better off if you do not want the pro valve etc just sticking with the Stoptech. But the cheapest still remains Tom's.

You must be registered for see images

You must be registered for see images

You must be registered for see images

You must be registered for see images

You must be registered for see images

You must be registered for see images

 

[bushido]

I would love to discuss your kit and how it's working for you.
Any chance we cal talk on the phone sometime to get more details?

My setup works perfectly fine. I took my Viper out on the track recently, and the brakes worked killer. I wasn't surprised because I drive it kind of hard out on the street anyways.The 14inch 2 piece Giro Disc rotors are so much lighter compared to the one piece stock SRT10 boat anchors.With that said, the pedal feel is great to. Rock hard, solid like my old Porsche 911

 

[dave6666]

Here's some more info to consider if you like to keep your car on the Slim-Fast plan. I actually gained about 20 pounds or so in the SRT conversion. Can't speak for the Stoptech kit in that respect, nor Tom's.

http://forums.viperclub.org/rt-10-gts-discussions/622256-srt-brake-upgrade-weight.html

 

[Tom F&L GoR]

Hirk,
I'm a data-driven type guy so when you have a chance, please ask Stoptech how they size a four piston caliper on the rear of the car and avoid needing a proportioning valve. An overly simple calculation indicates they would need small 26mm or 28mm sized pistons (four of them) in the rear caliper.

Also, to mount any four piston caliper on the rear suspension I suspect as GTSnake asked, you need to cut off the arms that locate the OEM rear caliper.

Dave, you are now on technical probation, too. Stoptech has a nice write-up on how ABS does not automatically allow you to slap on just any size caliper. StopTech : Balanced Brake Upgrades By the way, did you ever work summers at Avis or Hertz cleaning up return cars? Wow.

Can't argue that massive muscular calipers all around look great. It's a "want-need" decision. Re-sized rear calipers are 20% of the cost of 4-piston calipers and you can do lots of other things with the left over cash.

As to overall weight; the OEM front and OEM rear calipers are (surprise!) almost identical in weight. So putting a 4-piston caliper on the back end doesn't change real weight until you have to install a parking brake.

 

[Hirkophoto]

Okay I don't know about the size of the rear pistons. I would have to call Steve back. I do know that they don't use a proportion valve for the simple fact that they can build the calipers with different braking force. The caliper is designed to be on the rear without a valve. They can build calipers with nearly 50 different braking forces. So the caliper that fits a Viper might be the same caliper they use on a Evo 10 but they change the braking force to work correctly with the brake boster and entire system. Steve designed the first system for the Vipers back in 2000-2001 he is the engineer and is very knowledgeable.
They also stand behind their product 100%. I don't think I'm going to get that from some product that takes parts from here and there to make it work.

 

[Hirkophoto]

With Dave's kit you need to do some cutting and grinding, do the Stoptechs require the same?

Yes they require cutting of the tabs like daves kit does. I don't know if exactly the same cut but I suspect it's similar.

 

[bushido]

Since your in socal why dont you give Dan a call over at DC Performance. I'm sure he can answer alot more of your questions. IMO he's the best Viper tech on the West Coast..

 

[Hirkophoto]

Here's some more info to consider if you like to keep your car on the Slim-Fast plan. I actually gained about 20 pounds or so in the SRT conversion. Can't speak for the Stoptech kit in that respect, nor Tom's.

http://forums.viperclub.org/rt-10-gts-discussions/622256-srt-brake-upgrade-weight.html

I can't say exactly what the weight is. I did discuss this with them (stoptech) and their high performance rotor is much lighter than the stock gts and srt set ups.
Un sprung weight here will be much less from what I understand. Aceleration should notice a bump too. Right now I just want to stop.
Hirk

 

[Hirkophoto]

Since your in socal why dont you give Dan a call over at DC Performance. I'm sure he can answer alot more of your questions. IMO he's the best Viper tech on the West Coast..

Yep I plan on doing that. I just ran out of time today. I want to get as much info as I can about this. As you can see I stired up the bees nest on this one. Everyone has an opinion and they have different ideas. I'm not saying one is wrong or right. Some people may be happy with the set up they have. I just want to make an infomed decision and not just do something because everyone is doing it. Sometimes decisions are made for the wrong reasons like saving a few bucks. Persoally I think brakes are not something to skimp .
Hirk

 

[RTTTTed]

Yeah I have been through all that before. New high temp fluid, new rotors new pads, same braking. Feels like I am pushing on a brick. Nothing and then everything. The brakes on my Chevy Equinox are far better than my Viper.
Sad but true.

I would guess that an Equinox stops in about 170'? Whereas your Gen 2 Viper with PS 2 tires should be stopping in about 107' from 60mph???

You have serious issues with your brakes. As recommended earlier I think you should find the problem with what you already have and then upgrade to better brakes. Without ABS you should be able to stomp on the pedal and lock up all 4 wheels - right?

Ted

 

[luc]

Yeah I have been through all that before. New high temp fluid, new rotors new pads, same braking. Feels like I am pushing on a brick. Nothing and then everything. The brakes on my Chevy Equinox are far better than my Viper.
Sad but true.

That's not normal, you need to find the problem before doing any brake upgrade or you could end up with the same issue.
Check your brake power booster by doing the following:
Run the engine for a few moments, then turn the key off. Once the engine dies, press the brake pedal a few times. You should hear a hissing noise each time you press the pedal. Then hold the pedal down and start the engine. The pedal should move and get softer. If none of this occurs, verify that the booster has a vacuum source. If the booster has a vacuum source, and still does not boost the pedal effort, the booster is more than likely bad. One other alternative would be a bad check valve. Simply remove the valve and blow into it. It should blow easily in one direction, and not at all in the other.

 

[Joseph Dell]

Not sure who else can comment on this... but I've driven both my car (Stoptech fronts + Tom's 40mm rears) and a car with Dave's Big Brakes on a Gen2. Both are a nice improvement. The car I drove with the SRT calipers was slightly more prone to lock-up on the same track than my car. Of course, my car had a little more power to we might need to blame my feet for that one.

That being said, when I watched the owner of the car w/ the SRT calipers run the track, he was stopping on a dime!

So while my personal preference is what I run, I'm sure the other works well too.

BTW - No cutting on the StopTech setup.

 

[Hirkophoto]

I would guess that an Equinox stops in about 170'? Whereas your Gen 2 Viper with PS 2 tires should be stopping in about 107' from 60mph???

You have serious issues with your brakes. As recommended earlier I think you should find the problem with what you already have and then upgrade to better brakes. Without ABS you should be able to stomp on the pedal and lock up all 4 wheels - right?

Ted

I can lock up the brakes no problem. There is just no modulation of the brake pedal. It's most likely due to the stock lines on the car. At any rate the old system will be trashed.

 

[Hirkophoto]

That's not normal, you need to find the problem before doing any brake upgrade or you could end up with the same issue.
Check your brake power booster by doing the following:
Run the engine for a few moments, then turn the key off. Once the engine dies, press the brake pedal a few times. You should hear a hissing noise each time you press the pedal. Then hold the pedal down and start the engine. The pedal should move and get softer. If none of this occurs, verify that the booster has a vacuum source. If the booster has a vacuum source, and still does not boost the pedal effort, the booster is more than likely bad. One other alternative would be a bad check valve. Simply remove the valve and blow into it. It should blow easily in one direction, and not at all in the other.

I will run your tests. However I suspect that the problem lies in stock brake lines. They just don't give much pedal feel.

 

[dave6666]

Dave...did you ever work...

 

[dave6666]

I just want to make an infomed decision and not just do something because everyone is doing it. Sometimes decisions are made for the wrong reasons like saving a few bucks. Persoally I think brakes are not something to skimp .
Hirk

I went through the same process when choosing my system. Talked to Stoptech, the late Dave of Dave's Big Brakes, Sean Roe on his Brembo kits, and so on.

The decision came down to:

-> Cost no object. I did spend $5.5K, probably more than any other brand/kit.

-> Calipers were gonna say Viper, not Brembo or Stoptech. Appearance matters.

-> Biggest is bestest. Let the ABS do the rest.

The installation was simple and the only complaint I've had is that the EBC reds are not that impressive. But then again, rotor wear and pad dust are easy to deal with - thanks EBC reds.

 

[Hirkophoto]

I went through the same process when choosing my system. Talked to Stoptech, the late Dave of Dave's Big Brakes, Sean Roe on his Brembo kits, and so on.

The decision came down to:

-> Cost no object. I did spend $5.5K, probably more than any other brand/kit.

-> Calipers were gonna say Viper, not Brembo or Stoptech. Appearance matters.

-> Biggest is bestest. Let the ABS do the rest.

The installation was simple and the only complaint I've had is that the EBC reds are not that impressive. But then again, rotor wear and pad dust are easy to deal with - thanks EBC reds.

Dave,
Spoken like a man with deep pockets.
Bigger is not always better (when your discussing brakes) if they are not properly matched to the car they could do more harm then good. If you have huge brakes in the back and they lock up constantly then what is the point.
I have a 2000 gts NON ABS. So this stuff needs to be figured out ahead of time. Also I don't care what the name is on the brake I needs to work the best. If that is Stoptech or Brembo so be it. Viper SRT calipers are brembo anyway.

 

[Tom F&L GoR]

BTW - No cutting on the StopTech setup.

Ooops, Joe. See page 9.

http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/m...lation Manual_98-260-1431_Rev. C_11-12-05.pdf

In fact, you have to grind the lower control arm, too?!


Hirk, I know you have your sights set on something more visually attractive, and can't blame you, but I have to point out that 40mm brakes say "Brembo" on them!

 

[Hirkophoto]

Ooops, Joe. See page 9.

http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/m...lation Manual_98-260-1431_Rev. C_11-12-05.pdf

In fact, you have to grind the lower control arm, too?!


Hirk, I know you have your sights set on something more visually attractive, and can't blame you, but I have to point out that 40mm brakes say "Brembo" on them!

I'm looking for a complete system that works. Name is not important to me Function is. Size is not always the determining factor as I stated. If you have big brakes and the don't function properly well what is the point.

 

[RTTTTed]

Perhaps I can sumarize,
-Stoptech has cut the caliper pistons size to match the > 2000 puny rear stock caliper (36mm) pistons for the balance of front big brakes.
I would assume that Stoptech will also sell the equivalent to STOCK Gen3 calipers?

-the Gen 3/4 Viper is one of the best stopping cars in the entire world with it's stock Brembo brakes.

-the stock >2000Viper rear calipers use the tiny 36mm pistons and the ABS Viper brakes of 2001 and 2002 were perfectly balanced with their larger 44mm pistons and ABS.

-Going with large 4 piston rear calipers and extra rear caliper for emerg brake adds a significant weight with no or insignificant advantage?

Summary would be upgrade the rear caliper piston on your stock rears. Upgrade to stock brembo Gen 3/4 calipers and 14" rotors. I would purchase lightweight rotors for the 40# advantage.

Having non-ABS system means that a brake proportioning valve needs to be added into the rear brake line for adjustment to the perfect brake balance for the car. Or maybe just buy the complete used ABS system from JonB or other vendor?

Stock rubber brakelines actually grow when brake pressure is applied causing the brake pedal to 'feel soft'. Cahnging to Stainless Steel brakelines removes this 'false' soft pedal and gives positive, instant pedal feedback and no hesitation between pedal and brake activation.

If you're expecting your brake pedal to get more feel - you'll get less. Positive pressure to the calipers with no pressure loss due to expanding rubber brakelines.

Ted

 

[bushido]

This GTS has Dave's Big Brake kit, and the guys driving the piss out of it on the track..

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2xD2db-ZuHY&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Efunnyvideos%2Ech%2FH2H%2DEp8%2DDodge%2DViper%2DVs%2DSuperformance%2DDaytona%2DCou%5F%5F2xD2db%2DZuHY%2Ehtml&feature=player_embedded#t=15[/media]

 

[Joseph Dell]

Ooops, Joe. See page 9.

http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/manuals_bbk/Dodge%20Viper_Rear%20Installation%20Manual_98-260-1431_Rev.%20C_11-12-05.pdf

In fact, you have to grind the lower control arm, too?!

I have a front-only kit. I guess the rears require grinding. good thing i didn't go with that!

 

[SingleMalt]

Wow -- look at this tread take off!!!

In answer to your 4/6 piston front caliper question; a fellow member answered it succinctly. The 6 piston will have the advantage of pad surface. This, if racing tight courses with high track temperatures, would probably amount to a difference you would notice. I'm VERY ******* my brakes (karter and instructor) and the Stoptechs gave me the feel and modulation I wanted with a slightly lower rear bias for when the car wears R-comps.

I chose to install the Stoptech big brake system on my car. The installation of the rear calipers required slicing the old caliper mount off, BUT (and check this on your car before actually taking a grinder to it) did NOT require grinding of the lower knuckles for proper clearance.

The evolution of my braking system went like so:

1) Stainless lines. This will get you your brake feel, but the stock calipers still flex more than the Stoptech units, so if you have a very sensitive foot, you will notice.
2) Tom's 38mm rears. This upgrade was exactly what I needed for balance, but brake fade was present.
3) Porsche front air deflectors. A great addition but did not fully cure the fade issue ($99 from Big Brake Dave I think) -- still have them on my car to this day
4) Stoptech big brakes. Life is now good!

Also, the pads for the Stoptech calipers come in all flavors so you can test, mix/match/etc... The same may be true for the SRT10 calipers; I'm not certain there.

Also, if your car is non-ABS, then the master cylinder is designed to move less fluid. The Stoptechs require about 1/4" additional pedal travel I would say (from the 38mm rear setup, maybe 1/3" total from stock) whereas if you did a Dave's Big Brake setup, I have no idea how much additional fluid is required and may cause you some grief with a pedal that has too much travel. Tom may be able to chime in here to help with his calculations on this.

Mike

I can lock up the brakes no problem. There is just no modulation of the brake pedal. It's most likely due to the stock lines on the car. At any rate the old system will be trashed.