Valve Issue - New Info - ...and Great News!

[8AVETTE]

Ron gr8 plate by the way.

 

[GR8_ASP]

Don you already have a supercharger installed???

I am planning on going to Dick Scott Dodge. It is about 1 1/2 hour away but I believe worth the extra drive. Rod Harris is the Tech Advisor and a former Viper owner. I was told thatthey have already performed the procedure twice so I am hopeful that it will be painless.

My only concern really is an errant scratch. Could happen to anyone, even me, but I just do not want it to happen if at all possible.

Where in Detroit are you located? I am in Rochester Hills.

 

[GR8_ASP]

Okay, if you have 8avette on your GTS what do you have on the SRT? 8aferrari, naw too many letters. 8alambo, hmmm.

 

[wiseasp]

First off my SRT does not have the valve problem, even if it did, after HEFFNER was done his magic it would not have mattered. Anyway, I ordered a new 2003 Dodge Ram 3500 Cummins ** Dually last week and the sales manager has a 2003 SRT with this issue. He said that he was very disappointed how DC is handling this issue and he HAS a certified viper tech at their dealership and WOULD NOT let him touch his car . Enough said...

ROB

 

[2charmed]

Why can't those affected just make an appointment with a 5 star Dodge Dealer
of their choice and then Dodge could bring in a qualified Viper Tech to deal
with the issue?

I would think this would be the exception, not the rule as only a few cars were/are affected, and most of us have Viper Techs we trust close to us. So
the need to bring in a "specialist" would be minimal. Everyone would be happy!

Just my .02 worth, my car was fixed at the factory so other than a dely in getting my car, I have not been affected that I know of.

2Charmed

 

[8AVETTE]

Close, I switched 8AVETTE to the SRT/10 and chose 8A 4REE for the ACR. The ACR is Roe supercharged and the SRT will be Doug Levin supercharged soon. *****8ALAMBO I like it ****. Darn, now I need another Viper for that plate. THANKS A LOT.

I'm in Shelby Twp. 24 1/2 and Schoenherr. I have another place in mind if you don't want go so far.

 

[GR8_ASP]

Don,

Let me know where an alternative is. I am pretty close to you - Tienken and Brewster - about 5 miles due west.

Going to the dyno in about a half hour - several Vipers are going to Advanced Chassis Dyno at 36760 Metro Court (off of Metro Pkwy between Mound and Van ****. You are welcome to join and embarass us (hp wise).We are meeting at 2:00.

 

[Viper Wizard]

Thank You Joe for all of your work on this one!

While we're on the subject of DC handling the "Valve Issue" and all of the above concerns are legitimate.
Here's my complaint: DC ***** ON PAYING DEALERS TO FIX THIS PROBLEM!!
Their paying me 6.4 hours to replace all the Intake Valves? NFW if your going to it right!

5 Star today means absolutely nothing! Any Dealer can be 5 Star?? Go ahead and look me up on Dodge's webb site [my zip code is 10590] and you"ll find I'm not listed as a 5 Star Dealer. That's because I did not pay for it! 5 Star has been around for over thirty years and Dealers had to work very hard to get it! Until Daimler took over? Now all you see is 5 Star Dealers? I'm not paying for a stupid sign to hang on my building!

Aufmerksam-keit Doctor are you reading this? Please give me a call and I'd be happy to explain life to you in English or German!

 

[Fred(DrivingSchool)Kinder]

"Five Star" is BS, many of us know that by personal experience.

Hope PVO dealerships are defined and that they are required to have the customer service standards as Chuck Tator and Bob Woodhouse!

 

[8AVETTE]

In my area the dealers want to be paid 6.4 hours for a job that takes them a lot less, like 2 hours. But in this case it may take 6.4 hours.I am sure DC did there home work on this, maybe even did a few there self. I have a fleet of 26 limousine's and hate dealing with the dealer on things because they use book rates of $80 HR even if it takes 1/2 the time they still charge full hours. How dishonest is that? I would rather them tell me there price per hr is $160 and be honest about it than say they Charge $80 bill for 6 hrs and do it in three. Most tech's bill 80 hrs but work only 40. So please don't complain when you may have to do a honest days work, just work a little faster.If I told you I would rent you a limousine for 5 hours but charged you 10, how would you like it. I have asked Viper techs if this can be done in the 6.4 hours and the answer was yes. Not happy about it, but it can be done.I am not saying your dealership does this, I know you have a good reputation but based on many years of dealing with the dealers in the Detroit area this has been normal work ethics.

 

[GR8_ASP]

Just returned from dyno testing the SRT. Cannot say I am happy . If the stated power and torque losses (-40 lb ft, -25 hp) are true then something else must be wrong . About 420 RWHP and 450 RWTQ is Gen II territory. Now I know why my RT/10 feels faster . It is faster. Same peak power but more torque. Anyone have ideas about the torque and power, and if it will be consistent with other SRT's once the valves are replaced.

Note: Edited as I had an incorrect graph (from the Dynojet program). The correct graph is consistent run to run.

 

[8AVETTE]

WOW, That really makes me mad.These cars are on the dyno before they add body panels.They knew this and still delivered the cars.I did here from the dealer that they are replacing the heads instead of just the valves.Those #s do seem about right for a valve issue car, add the 25 hp and your up around the 450 rw hp.

 

[SylvanSRT]

Hey Don was that you in Royal Oak lastnite? If not you have a twin. Have you had your SRT dyno'd? I think i need to get mine to a dyno to check it out. Any MCVO know of a local dyno that does good work and reasonable price?

 

[Viper Wizard]

In my area the dealers want to be paid 6.4 hours for a job that takes them a lot less, like 2 hours. But in this case it may take 6.4 hours.I am sure DC did there home work on this, maybe even did a few there self. I have a fleet of 26 limousine's and hate dealing with the dealer on things because they use book rates of $80 HR even if it takes 1/2 the time they still charge full hours. How dishonest is that? I would rather them tell me there price per hr is $160 and be honest about it than say they Charge $80 bill for 6 hrs and do it in three. Most tech's bill 80 hrs but work only 40. So please don't complain when you may have to do a honest days work, just work a little faster.If I told you I would rent you a limousine for 5 hours but charged you 10, how would you like it. I have asked Viper techs if this can be done in the 6.4 hours and the answer was yes. Not happy about it, but it can be done.I am not saying your dealership does this, I know you have a good reputation but based on many years of dealing with the dealers in the Detroit area this has been normal work ethics.

Don with your statement above tells me you have never turned a wrench! As for your Tech that says he can do this job in 6.4 hours? I will fire everybody here and hire him at double his pay right now! I DO NOT USE a time book for jobs! I charge for actual time per job at $90 an hour! DC Warranty times are designed to save them money!! Dealers make VERY LITTLE on Warranty work and it has been that way for a very long time!

Bob Woodhouse, John Gastman and myself are in the process of changing the 6.4 hour to 9.5 hours! Witch is a fair time for the Dealers and DC! Don please feel free to give any one of us a call and we will be happy to explain the Valve Issue to you in great detail so you may understand what it actually is required to perform this task.

The top three Viper Dealers in this Country are in complete agreement that DC has made a mistake on their times!!

I have now put on hold, all 03 Valve jobs that I have in my schedule untill the time issue is resolved!

 

[GR8_ASP]

Mike - we just went yesterday to Advanced Chassis Dyno at 36760 Metro Court (off of Metro Pkwy between Mound and Van ****. Phone 586-795-4600. Their price is $75 per hour or $65 for 3 runs. Same chassis dyno PVO uses. We had 4 Vipers and a Cobra on a last minute "let's go to a dyno" opportunity.

Unfortunately Steve Nelson won with a mildly modified GTS (Balenger headers, catless and VEC1. The Vec1 seemed to be worth 10+ RWHP. He beat my SRT by more than 15 RWHP. If the valves are worth 25 HP (22 RWHP) I would barely beat him. Can you say "not impressive."

 

[Fred(DrivingSchool)Kinder]

I'll side with Chuck and Bob based on their character and excellent service reputation!

 

[8AVETTE]

Well Chuck you are wrong,I have turned few wrenchs.I grew up repairing and rebuilding my own cars with some automotive schooling.The Viper is one of the easiest modern cars to work on that I have seen. I have had 7 Vipers my self. I also know the valve issue very well. I live ten minuets from Arrow racing and go there often,I have seen the bad and good valves.The tech's have told me that the fix is just changing the heads.even if it is changing intake valves, it's no big deal for the pro.I am a firm believer in fair pay for work performed.If you guys need more hours because it truly takes more time than I hope you get it.I have saved my company tens of thousands of dollars over the years by not taking out of warranty cars to the dealership.

With that said, I'm glad to here your dealership charges for true hours worked. That is not the case here in Michigan from most dealerships and body shops. Like I said, I would rather you give me a high hourly rate than a low one and charge more hours than it really takes.

 

[8AVETTE]

I will also say that putting your customers on hold because of a dispute with Dodge over hours is very bad business. Fix the cars you sold and agreed to service like other dealers are doing, you can still take it up with Dodge.A reputable business man and or dealer should not make the customer aware of it's problems.

I will not fix the car I sold you until Dodge agrees to give me more money is not the right approach IMO.

 

[2charmed]

8AVETTE,

I can tell you that Chuck is excellent to his customers! I have never met Chuck, but I have delt with him for over Three years now and will continue to
in the future because of his Customer Service Perfection!

I asked my brother in law who is a master mechanic how long the valve job should take. He is not a Dodge mechanic, but right away, he told me the job should take a minimum of 8 hours if the engine is in the car. It's in DC's
interest to estimate the hours on the low end, this is a problem that should
have been caught at the factory, but wasn't. Penalizing the dealers isn't the best way to go for the customers! I have bought three new Vipers and one used.
I would like to think that I will buy more in the future, but I think DC needs to step up and make the owners happy on this one. DC got full price for each
03' SRT/10 - The Dealers were not so lucky!

2Charmed

 

[8AVETTE]

My understanding is that we a not talking about a valve job here, just replacing the heads. It may take more time and if so then I hope they get the extra time, but I would not be happy if my dealer was to tell me he's not going to fix my car until he's happy with warranty payment from Dodge. That was not The agreement made at the time of purchase.I'm in titled to my opinion right or wrong.
I also think Chuck is good to his customers, I have seen his name on this board for years with many happy Viper owners. I just disagree with the comment of putting repairs on hold. that is unacceptable to me.I'm in business also and don't like to lose money on jobs that I do, but I do some times and that's OK with me.Hell I even work for free sometimes to make a bad situation right.We are only talking about a hand full of SRTs, most of the Viper's sold by the larger Viper dealers go out of state and will not be shipped back to them for this issue.

 

[Viper Wizard]

OK Don I stand corrected, you have turned some wrenchs. The SRT's that I am fixing are ones sold by other Dealers! I did not make a dime on them! All of the SRT's I've delevered so far have been before the valve problem or fixed by DC before delevered to me. 2charmed's SRT was fixed by DC, if it wasn't I would have fixed it before his delevery!! The reason I'm putting them on hold is to have the customers call DC and ISG [who ever they may be?], because you as a customer can get more dun then the Dealers some times! The Valve issue is not stopping you from driving your SRT! They will all be fixed in time. The way DC is handling this issue is pi$$ poor at best!! In the past when you had a motor problem DC would not let Dealers open up motors to fix it, we had to pull your motors and send them to Arrow! Now all of a sudden we can open up your motors and replace your Intake Valves, but I'm not suppose to fix a simple problem as Head Gaskets on GENI's? Again I say "What, do they think I'm stupid?". I have never put any of my customers through the inconvenience of not having their baby for two months just for a head gasket problem! When I get a Viper [GENI] in my shop with a head gasket leak the turn over time is three days! I am a small store, there are four of us here! That's how small I am! So when you come to my store you will talk to the person that is going to fix your car, that's me !

Getting back to DC and their pi$$ poor ways, they have told me since I am so small that I'm more of a nuisance to them? But when they have a problem with a Viper, who do you think they send that car to? I'm feed up with how they have been treating me and my customers!! I've been on both sides of the bar! What's good for the goose is good for the gander! I hope I set off the red flags in Stuttgart on this one!

 

[8AVETTE]

Well Chuck, I also stand corrected. I took it as these were cars you sold.You have a good reputation and I'm sure you will keep it.Good luck with Dodge on this.

 

[Steve 00RT/10]

Unfortunately Steve Nelson won with a mildly modified GTS (Balenger headers, catless and VEC1. The Vec1 seemed to be worth 10+ RWHP. He beat my SRT by more than 15 RWHP. If the valves are worth 25 HP (22 RWHP) I would barely beat him. Can you say "not impressive."

Hi Ron,

Nice meeting you Saturday. Actually the VEC1 added 14.3 HP and 16.30 torque on the strongest run. My RT/10 has always run very rich which has robbed power since new.

Steve

 

[GR8_ASP]

Hi Steve. Back home now? Hope the ride was okay.

I was going from memory, and I shouldn't rely on that as much as I used to. That's why I said 10+ as I wasn't certain. Now if correct intake valves are worth 50 hp then ... but alas that is doubtful.

 

[Steve 00RT/10]

Hi Steve. Back home now? Hope the ride was okay.

Yes, home last night. Good ride. A little rain. 1550 miles all together. Almost 100 miles at Gingerman.

Missed the exit to 75 from 59 yesterday as I was dutifully punishing a C-5. Cost a few minutes, but it was worth it.

Hope the valve issue works out to your satisfaction.

Steve

 

[Viper Wizard]

Well Chuck, I also stand corrected. I took it as these were cars you sold.You have a good reputation and I'm sure you will keep it.Good luck with Dodge on this.

It's cool Don.
I am a Viper owner first, but from the drivers seat I hold the wheel. DC open the doors! Here I come!!

 

[Black SRT]

Ever notice that when your trunk lid is open on the SRT you can look out your rear window and not realize it’s up? Well I had less than 100 miles on my new car when I smashed the trunk lid trying to back out of the garage. Broke both hydraulic supports and gouged the lid above the plate area (mostly unseen). Do you think I was a little pissed that my new Viper was no longer perfect? Of course, but $hit happens in life and you need to takes things in stride. I took my car to Chassis Masters in Laconia, NH, and for a couple hundred dollars my car is now perfect again.

I realize this issue is upsetting to many but just be patient, and have a little faith that the issue will be resolved to your satisfaction. Remember, most of us paid well under MSRP for these cars and they are still selling for $5k over MSRP. If your not happy in the final analysis, then sell the car and you should still have a few bucks in your pocket for your troubles.

If we gave our kids as much attention as we give these d@mn cars, they’d all grow up to be Presidents of the United States.

 

[Viperfreak2]

I wonder if any of you are getting JD Powers surveys for your Vipers? ALSO, isn't the five star rating ONLY for dealers who score well on there own DC internal surveys? After the sales disaster at the dealership in Northern Atlanta back in 1999, I stopped getting surveys. I circled "unhappy faces" on one, and they all stopped. Seems like they way a stealership maintains its five star rating is to remove the "troubled customers" from the mailing list after trash-canning the bad ones they get back. Anyone else experiencing this??? DC are you listening, or does this policy come from above.....

 

[Fred(DrivingSchool)Kinder]

Years ago before DC came along the rating had some meaning. Today it means the dealer paid $1,400.00 for an ad program called "Five Star". And that is all it means!

 

[bill gidden]

THE DODGE DEALERS ARE NOT THE PROBLEM. AFTER SEVERAL WEEKS OF PHONE TAG WITH THE "GOOD NEWS" VIPER HEADQUARTERS REP, I WAS GIVEN A NAME OF A VIPER TECH THAT WOULD TEND TO THE VALVE PROBLEM ON MY NEW SRT. I ASKED IF THIS TECH HAD DONE THIS REPAIR FOR ANYONE YET, AND SHE IMMEDIATELY SAID YES HE HAS DONE THREE OR FOUR AND WASN'T IT NICE THAT I WOULD NOT HAVE TO BE FIRST. I ASKED FOR THIS TECHS NAME AND PHONE NUMBER. I JUST GOT OFF PHONE FROM TALKING WITH THE EXPERIENCED TECH AND HE VERY NICELY SAID " I KNOW ABOUT THE VALVE PROBLEM, BUT I HAVE NEVER BEEN IN AN 03 ENGINE." THE TECH WAS VERY NICE AND TRIED TO BE MOST HELPFUL . HE SAID THAT HE BELIEVED HE COULD DO THE WORK, AND JUST LET HIM KNOW HOW I WANTED TO HANDLE THE PROBLEM. THE PROBLEM IS WITH DC AND THE ROUTE THEY HAVE CHOSEN TO HANDLE THIS PROBLEM. USING PEOPLE THAT WOULD LIE TO ME NEEDLESSLY *****!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!I DON'T AGREE WITH SOME OF YOU THAT DC IS MOVING ALONG IN THE DIRECTION OF SOLUTION. THE PROBLEM IS SIMPLY RELATED TO THE PRIORTY THAT DC HAS ASSIGNED THIS PROBLEM. IT IS AMAZING TO ME THAT THE VALVE ISSUE IS NOT VERY IMPORTANT TO THE MANUFACTURER.

BILL GIDDEN