It seems to me that the election of all new National Officers derived from the Regional Officers or the new Board members who just became Board members, is a clean slate approach. The new Bylaws, as already stated by the Board in posts, will provide for the possibility of this happening. A person does need some experience to be a National Officer. It involves a considerable amount of work and some knowledge. We all know what happens when someone who does not have any experience or knowledge assumes a leadership position - right? It's the O effect. Dan has posted that he does not want to continue as President. So it seems to me that there are some pretty qualified Regional people from some active Regions who could run for National positions and get elected in an all member vote election. Isn't that a good outcome? Seems like it to me.
VCA Drama: what are the known facts?
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FrankBarba
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Im glad Chris can eat now that he has a free Business that was given to him. Now that this is settled
when can we start taking loans to start our businesses with the Jimmy Hoffa Teamsters Fund?
I see that your Heart is made of Goodness. Can you please send me a check in the same amount
that Chris will earn, I need to eat also?
I stay Chris deserves Nothing. Let him go earn $ 10.00 an hour.
when can we start taking loans to start our businesses with the Jimmy Hoffa Teamsters Fund?
I see that your Heart is made of Goodness. Can you please send me a check in the same amount
that Chris will earn, I need to eat also?
I stay Chris deserves Nothing. Let him go earn $ 10.00 an hour.
luc
Enthusiast
Bob; It's not clean slate approach, at best it is a feeble attempt to look like one. Clean slate would be to open ALL positions to ALL members and have ALL national officers resign by the time of a new election. I don't buy the "O"bama effect. The problem that we have here, not unlike in politics, is a complete lack of trust in the management of the club. The club look more and more like Washington with back-door deals, bridge to nowhere, public apologies to placate the American peoples when something go wrong but no real intent to change the system. Can you explain why Chris, after all the damages he had done to the club is still allowed to run a for-profit business owned 100% by the Club?. Where is the accountability here? Where is the old fashioned notion that you are RESPONSIBLE for your acts, good or bad. Pleading the 5th has no place in the management of a car club
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Bashing Chris seems to be the passtime of many but I think that he should be given credit for rising to meet the challenge the VCA faced when Chrysler went into bankruptcy and all funding in support of the activities of the VCA were cut off. This was a great deal of money. JR Thompson terminated its agreement with the VCA - not the other way around. This resulted in the VCA having to scramble to survive. It also resulted in the darkest days of Viper history when the Viper ended. Those who were at the July 1, 2010 event in Detroit know what I am writing about. These were not easy times but for most members things went along pretty seemlessly. Also, it can be debated whether or not the VPA should have been formed but it was formed - primarily through the efforts of Chris. It is a Mopar dealer. Many VCA members have benefited from VPA with the member discounts provided. VPA also acted, and acts, as a repository for molds, equipment, etc. that would have otherwise been discarded by Chrysler. I am not saying that someone cannot criticize Chris or anyone else. What I am saying is that he did do some good stuff for the VCA and that should be remembered. As for what deliberative process should be used to determine whther Chris should remain OTJ, I posted about that on another thread by I think Trackaire.
BTW, unless I am mistaken, the Chrysler money was not ever restored after the bankruptcy. If someone knows differently, please post.
BTW, unless I am mistaken, the Chrysler money was not ever restored after the bankruptcy. If someone knows differently, please post.
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JoelW
Enthusiast
Bob, some of the presidents who should know say it was VCA who terminated the contract with JR Thompson - not the other way around. Whatever the truth of that is, the financial situation and other things in question now was a lot clearer when JR Thompson was keeping track of things instead of the mess we seem to have. This lack of transparency has been the number one complaint from regional presidents and my membership. Just sayin'.
TowDawg
Enthusiast
One thing left out of luc's post is the raffle.
The questions regarding it are SIMPLE and require NO research, so they should have been answered long ago.
Where was it held?
Was it licensed? By who?
Who oversaw it (the raffle, actual incoming funds, reported incoming funds, all tickets accounted for (even those that people who bought them never received))?
I'll save Bob the trouble of pointing this out as one of those posts "that won't let things go". You're right! It is a very big potential issue, but with very simple answers. Why are they still not addressed?
The questions regarding it are SIMPLE and require NO research, so they should have been answered long ago.
Where was it held?
Was it licensed? By who?
Who oversaw it (the raffle, actual incoming funds, reported incoming funds, all tickets accounted for (even those that people who bought them never received))?
I'll save Bob the trouble of pointing this out as one of those posts "that won't let things go". You're right! It is a very big potential issue, but with very simple answers. Why are they still not addressed?
TowDawg
Enthusiast
Chris rising to the challenge? I do not know all the following as fact, but it is what I have garnered from people who have been proven trustworthy.
At the time the VPA was formed, Chris was unemployed and the VCA loaned (now listed as "invested") the $50k to start it.
If I was unemployed and didn't have to use my own money, I'd have been all over it too.
At the time the VPA was formed, Chris was unemployed and the VCA loaned (now listed as "invested") the $50k to start it.
If I was unemployed and didn't have to use my own money, I'd have been all over it too.
luc
Enthusiast
Yes, Chris did some good stuff, I even remember him helping me out on some censorship issues over 10 years ago BUT, that is not a GET-OUT-JAIL card for all the wrong things that he did. Bob, I have carefully read you posts and you are pretty good at NOT answering pointed questions. Maybe you should run for office, you will do well. I have asked you a VERY precise question regarding why Chris is still running VPA. You "answer" was that ".he should be given credit for some good stuff." Do you consider that to be a valid and complete answer? If yes, you are part of the problem and not part of the solution. Some honesty and transparency would be welcome here
Joel. I do not belive that your data sources are correct. JR Thompson terminated. When the money from Chrysler stopped, their gravy train stopped. The VCA could not have afforded to keep them and they knew it. The Chrysler support was quite a bit of money. The idea that there was more transparncy duing that era is false. We knew nothing about JR Thompson's true expenses or profit margin. The VCA did not even negotiate that contract. In fact, based on what the VCA has been spending to replace most, if not all of what they were doing, either they were very high or the post JR Thompson era has been operated for far less money. I think the magazine has been greatly improved. Backroom servicing of member dues seems better and certainly this forum has continued to operate. In addition the last two VOIs were handled by the VCA. The prior VOIs were handled by third parties.
But you are right that there should be more transparency, and I would add to that, a clear pathway to new leadership, and I think that Dan and the new Board, as indicated by their recent posts are trying to accomplish both. I think that it is important that we not get excessively bogged down in the politics. For most members, what they want is the continuation of member benefits at the same or greater level as was in place before the recent storm. That's why I think all reasonable people shouild band together to repair what needs to be repaired and move the club forward.
But you are right that there should be more transparency, and I would add to that, a clear pathway to new leadership, and I think that Dan and the new Board, as indicated by their recent posts are trying to accomplish both. I think that it is important that we not get excessively bogged down in the politics. For most members, what they want is the continuation of member benefits at the same or greater level as was in place before the recent storm. That's why I think all reasonable people shouild band together to repair what needs to be repaired and move the club forward.
Here is the post for your convenience:
Re: Apology to Ralph Gilles
Fair questions to ask the Board. My personal opinion does not matter. But, what the heck, here is what I would do. If I was making the decisions, they would be based on dollars and cents only. So with respect to your first question, I would determine whether comparable space could be rented for an amount which is sufficiently less than what is being paid to justify incurring the cost of moving the contents to the new location. I do not know many people that have affection for their landlord so the like or dislike issue does not mean much to me. If it is determined that the smartest financial thing to do is stay, I would stay.
As for the VPA, I would do two things. First, I would do the same type of financial analysis regarding the current payroll. VPA recently posted their payroll and it seemed pretty low to me. I also do not know what the cost would be to replace Chris who almost single handedly put VPA together; got the Mopar dealership and knows the most about the business. I also have not read any complaints about VPA service that have not been immediately addressed and have seen many favorable posts about VPA on the Forum. But, I do not know the warehoused parts business well and maybe payroll could be lower and Chris could be replaced without the VPA and the VCA being financially, or otherwise, inconvenienced. ( Keep in mind that Herb Helbig receives a $30K consulting fee. I hope that you are not saying that Herb is overpaid. That would be the same as insulting Ralph.) The second thing I would do regarding VPA, assuming it is lawful under the applicable local law, and that it has not already been done by Dan, is strictly muzzle, under penalty of immediate termination of employment, all VPA employees regarding exhibiting any adverse behavior toward Chrysler, SRT, or any of their employees and regarding any VCA policies. VPA is a wholly owned for profit subsidiary of the VCA and, as such, the VCA completely controls VPA. It is not the place of VPA employees to comment on VCA policy matters. So if after the above analysis is done, if it turns out that the smartest financial thing to do is keep Chris on and that he clearly understands that he has to zip it or be immediately terminated from employment, I would keep him on.
"Here are some simple questions:
-Bob, do you think that Tim should still be our landlord after he tried to sabotage our relationship with Ralph/SRT?
-Bob, do you think Chris Marshall should still be employed by the VPA after not fulfilling his duties in regards to financials, answering salary questions, etc?
Can't make it any more clear than that. Since both of these parties are financially related to the club, normal business practices and procedures should apply.
It is very commendable that you are willing to do pro bono work for the club.
Cheers,
George
As for the VPA, I would do two things. First, I would do the same type of financial analysis regarding the current payroll. VPA recently posted their payroll and it seemed pretty low to me. I also do not know what the cost would be to replace Chris who almost single handedly put VPA together; got the Mopar dealership and knows the most about the business. I also have not read any complaints about VPA service that have not been immediately addressed and have seen many favorable posts about VPA on the Forum. But, I do not know the warehoused parts business well and maybe payroll could be lower and Chris could be replaced without the VPA and the VCA being financially, or otherwise, inconvenienced. ( Keep in mind that Herb Helbig receives a $30K consulting fee. I hope that you are not saying that Herb is overpaid. That would be the same as insulting Ralph.) The second thing I would do regarding VPA, assuming it is lawful under the applicable local law, and that it has not already been done by Dan, is strictly muzzle, under penalty of immediate termination of employment, all VPA employees regarding exhibiting any adverse behavior toward Chrysler, SRT, or any of their employees and regarding any VCA policies. VPA is a wholly owned for profit subsidiary of the VCA and, as such, the VCA completely controls VPA. It is not the place of VPA employees to comment on VCA policy matters. So if after the above analysis is done, if it turns out that the smartest financial thing to do is keep Chris on and that he clearly understands that he has to zip it or be immediately terminated from employment, I would keep him on.
"Here are some simple questions:
-Bob, do you think that Tim should still be our landlord after he tried to sabotage our relationship with Ralph/SRT?
-Bob, do you think Chris Marshall should still be employed by the VPA after not fulfilling his duties in regards to financials, answering salary questions, etc?
Can't make it any more clear than that. Since both of these parties are financially related to the club, normal business practices and procedures should apply.
It is very commendable that you are willing to do pro bono work for the club.
Cheers,
George
Although I am not sure, my research to date does not indicate that any of that money was used to pay Chris or any other member of his family. Perhaps that can be confirmed by someone.
Gustfront
Viper Owner
It's pretty simple really.
Until the people that caused the rift between this club and the Manufactuer are gone, there is no real movement forward. People want movement. They want true changes, not lip service. Looks like the *** is trying. Try harder.....until the this Marshall guy is gone, the *** will be seen as NOT doing what is required and this club will be sunk. As a new Viper owner and a prospective member(client) of this org, I am not interested in giving money and/or alliegence until all the factors (people) that caused this mess are addressed.
Wade
PS: Thank you for taking me off of moderation. Good step forward
Until the people that caused the rift between this club and the Manufactuer are gone, there is no real movement forward. People want movement. They want true changes, not lip service. Looks like the *** is trying. Try harder.....until the this Marshall guy is gone, the *** will be seen as NOT doing what is required and this club will be sunk. As a new Viper owner and a prospective member(client) of this org, I am not interested in giving money and/or alliegence until all the factors (people) that caused this mess are addressed.
Wade
PS: Thank you for taking me off of moderation. Good step forward
Here is a bit more data. Anyone who has conflicting data, please post. JonB was unanimously suspended by the VCA board for going after a VCA member where that VCA member worked. Janni Cone made the motion. JonB admitted the offense. In January of this year, the Board in place, including Maurice Liang, confirmed and extended the suspension for JonB. (Chris Marshall was not a member of the Board at that time.) Ralph Gilles asked the club in both 2012 and 2013 to reconsider the suspension. In fairness to Ralph, he was trying to patch things up. Several people were quite upset about what they perceived as pressure to reinstate JonB. Fortunately, to my knowledge, no Board member wrote a letter to Chrysler about it. But obviously one or two people who heard about the situation did.
Tim W WAS a board member and even claimed it IN his letter to Sergio
MoparBoyy
Enthusiast
Bob,
Did you even read the Tim W letter? He WAS on the *** at the time and even claimed to be a *** member in the letter.
The VCA is also still paying Tim W $5k/mo. Your ok with the club continuing to pay the person that is trying to get Ralph fired??
MoparBoyy
Enthusiast
You do realize the Chrysler and SRT still use JRT right? The money has never stopped from them. Do you know who sets up all the ALMS and LeMans VIP packages that people buy....JRT.
Which is it? JRT told the VCA they didn't want them as a customer anymore OR that the VCA could no longer afford them? The story Marshall always tells is that they dropped the VCA as clients. If they are so expensive and are making $$ off the club why would they drop the club as a client and especially in the economy we were going through? Do you know ANYONE that was dropping clients a couple of years ago?
Hostile
Enthusiast
Bob
Do you make this up as you go? The Jan. vote has been reported to have been
a sham vote only to please Chris by putting Jon B. out for good.
Skeeter
Do you make this up as you go? The Jan. vote has been reported to have been
a sham vote only to please Chris by putting Jon B. out for good.
Skeeter
When Chrysler stopped paying after it filed Bankruptcy, the money to pay Thompson was not there. If you know differently, please explain where the money would have come from.
The issue is not whether it was a sham, the issue is how many of the then Board members, which included those who are no longer on the Board voted for it. If someone knows, please post.
My understanding, pursuant to a recent post by someone else on this forum is that whatever he implied, he was not a Board member at the time he wrote and sent in the letter. That should be an easy fact to sort out. Take the date of the letter and cross check it with who was on the Board at that time. I posted about the LL/T relationship he has with VPA. See post 72 above.
TrackAire
Enthusiast
"Several people were quite upset about what they perceived as pressure to reinstate JonB. Fortunately, to my knowledge, no Board member wrote a letter to Chrysler about it. But obviously one or two people who heard about the situation did."
Well the landlord of the VPA building did (Tim Wolleson) and he has a huge conflict of interest since we are paying him a reported $5000.00 per month in rent. He had no right to send that letter to Chrysler without the ***'s approval. The correct business thing to do is cut ties with him immediately and not give him one more penny. The amount of damage he has done to the VCA's relationship with SRT is potentially a forever lasting situation. Regardless of whether his property is a good deal or not, the VCA should immediately find another location. If they have any problems, both Craigslist and Loopnet have multiple warehouse listings available for less than half of what we are paying as a club. Obviously Tim had good reason to keep the VPA in business and Parts Rack out of business....about five thousand reasons a month.
Bob, if you find out an employee is stealing from you, it makes good business sense to fire him, regardless of how great he was in the past. How can you trust somebody like this?? Does the term loose cannon mean anything to you?
Regarding Chris Marshall, there is no way an employee of the VCA should stay in position if he is failing at his job. Not doing financials in a timely matter is enough for me to fire somebody. Would you keep your accountant if he failed to continually not file your taxes, year after year? No excuses, either you are doing your job or not. Yesterday doesn't mean squat when you look at where we are today.
Unfortunately, your argument of what Chris has done in the past is not valid in the world of business, ethics and morals. A lot of people held ****** in high regard before WWII as growing Germany to a world power in many ways. After WWII, who in their right mind would even consider ****** and his atrocities as a potential leader? We can't argue with membership polls and until the VCA takes a stand and cleans house, the club does not stand a chance.
People have mention J.R. Thompson Company as having left us. I don't have proof if they left us, didn't like the money they were offered or if the VCA fired them. What I do know is they appear to be doing a lot of work even now for Chrysler, Dodge & SRT. If you googlemap their address, you'll see lots of nice transport trailers with Dodge graphics all around them. They appear to have a large marketing projects going on even though they are not doing the VCA gig any more. So they are good enough Chrysler....but not us. As part of the transparency questions, I think the membership would like to know what did happen between JRT and the VCA since it was our membership dollars going to VOI's, etc.
Rebuilding cannot start until the truth is known.....on all issues, not just the easy ones.
Cheers,
George
My post has nothing to do with JR Thompson's capabilities. It has to do with the fact that when Chrysler went into bankruptcy and the Viper was cancelled, the Chrysler money for the VCA and for Thompson to provide services to the VCA was gone. Is someone now going to say Chrysler did not go bankrupt? LOL. Like I requested above, someone please get the data showing that Tim was a Board member at the time he wrote and sent in the letter. There is a credible post by someone else that he was not. As for the LL and VPA, see post 72 above. You agreed that it made sense in the other thread.
MoparBoyy
Enthusiast
You would be incorrect. After the letter was sent out they retroactively removed Tim from the board. Yes, retroactively. This has been confirmed by numerous *** members, well former *** members. They did this so they could deny that Tim was on the *** to Chrysler. Chrysler wasn't stupid enough to fall for that though so when you read the letter from Chrysler and they say "there are far to many blogs, emails, and other communications criticizing and slandering Chrylser Management" Tims' letter is one of those communications. What other communications would the Chysler letter be referring to? Why would Tim lie about being on the ***?
It seems highly probable that Tim's letter is the main culprit behind the "peculiar behavior" comment. I was not aware of the retroactive procedure that you mention. Assuming this is true, we now have the correct picture. Thank you.
MoparBoyy
Enthusiast
But if Mary was hired to save the VCA money wouldn't that imply that the VCA was paying JRT and not Chrysler? Or, was Mary hired to save Chrysler money? I'm confused..
MoparBoyy
Enthusiast
Another *** member at the time posting on the subject. The letter was written AFTER the *** meeting in Jan. but Lee, Chris, Marv would tell you that Tim was removed in Jan. Why? He hadn't even written the letter yet.
TowDawg
Enthusiast
Bob, I thought lawyers were better at reading comprehension.
I never said any of the initial $50k was used to pay Chris. The $50k was used to start a business that was set-up/handed to him.
My point was that if you were UNEMPLOYED and a deal to aquire parts/inventory at insanley low prices AND start a new business with SOMEONE ELSE'S money, that would make you a damn lucky SOB, not a savior.
Do you know whether the entire Board voted in favor of the retroactive action you mention? Also, I know that this will be viewed as legal mumbo jumbo but, depending on when Tim's term started, it is possible that both views are equally correct. Because if his term started as of 1/1/2013, then a recission is possible. In other words the retroactive effect would work. I agree it is a bit of slight of hand to remove him retroactively but can you blame them for trying to clean it up that way? The one big thing that is puzzling to me is that if they knew that what Tim did was wrong enough to cause them to remove Tim retroactively, why didn't the Board realize that an apology was called for to Ralph and Chrysler at that time and then write a letter to Ralph and Chrylser? Rather odd behavior to say the least. Perhaps a Board member from that time, which includes all of those that left one way or another, can answer that question.
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