VCA Member Shot By Deputy

[Fast Freddy]

anytime you point a gun at an officer you can expect to get shot, even if it is on your own property

 

[99 R/T 10]

anytime you point a gun at an officer you can expect to get shot, even if it is on your own property

So the moral of the story is to shoot him first and ask questions later.............. Got it

 

[ViperRay]

The key here is whether the officer (let's not use derogatory terms, most do their jobs very well) identified himself before shooting. If not, the cop is in trouble.

It's certainly understandable why a cop in pursuit of a perp might be on edge, filled with adrenaline, but being able to keep your witts about you and follow correct police procedure is what separates the good ones from the bad ones.

Glad the victim is recovering.

 

[Jack B]

I believe some states only require you to be protecting your home to justify lethal force. About five years ago there was a case of a college student being shot on a front porch of a house and it was ruled justifiable homicide, I believe it was Louisiana.

Ohio now has a bill before the legislature that will no longer require you to retreat prior to using lethal force.

 

[Warfang]

"He had every right to protect his property" ????

What world are you living in? You can't use deadly force to protect property! I don't care what possession it is - unless someone's life is in jeopardy, you can't shoot.

Look at it from the officer's point of view. He was in pursuit of a criminal which led him onto private property. That IS legal to do. He is confronted by an armed man who refuses to lower his weapon. (officer identifying himself still unknown) He is forced to fire. Once the decision is made to fire, did you expect the officer to stop after one shot, or two....? Nope, I too would shoot until the threat stopped.

And why not send the dog?? Although somewhat expendable, it's not an instant fix to the situation. How many seconds would the shooter have to fire at officers before the dog got a bite? It comes down to reflex - police officers are trained to shoot those who threaten their lives - period.

It's too bad someone had to get shot - unfortunate circumstances in this case. You cop-haters need to get a grip!

Let's make a clear distiction between the land of the fruits and nut and the heartland of America. On the wrong coast............ I mean west coast , they don't believe in having the ability to own guns or to have the right to protect yourself. In the rest of the US, like Alabama for example, I can walk around town with a weapon in the open, completely legal. If I want a concealed weapons permit and have no federal convictions, I can have a concealed gun permit for $20 All this for personal protection. Our rights are still in place here in the bible belt

Don't rub it in. If it weren't for the sunshine and beaches...

 

[Warfang]

anytime you point a gun at an officer you can expect to get shot, even if it is on your own property

I don't get the people that really believe this... most likely the ones who do are bad cops with chips on their shoulders. So should you just assume everyone is a cop and not point your gun at someone that is a threat to you? Heck, why issue uniform and badges if we should all just assume that. The pig in question did not have his wits about him to identify himself as a police officer. That's a BIG nono and should be a firable offense... if you can't live up to your training (and yes, you ARE trained to identify yourself as a police officer at ALL times), you are MORE dangerous than any criminal on the street. He's lucky Robert had enough sense not to fire first, which he had every right to if he felt cornered by an unknown assailant on his property.

 

[Sellshomesdrivesviper]

I reside in Florida where we are real liberal with our weapon permits, laws and gun rights. Both inside of the home (king doctrine) and because of a new law recently just passed outside as well. We don't have to retreat or back down if we feel threathened and can use deadly force.

I've had a concealed weapon permit for over 20-years and carry a gun(s). We have reciprocity with a majority of the other states in the US and can carry a concealed weapon in those states as well.

Though thankfully, I've never had to use my gun(s), and I feel real safe and confident when out in public, though not to a fault. I am always aware of my surroundings, and try to use good common sense and proper judgement when out in public or at home.
Though if I thought my family, friends or my life were threatened, I would surely respond with force, deadly force. And if I was a witness to a terrible incident, i.e a ****, ****** or something along those lines, I would not hestitate to use the same force.

Though to sleep at night, if it was personal property, a tv, a bike or even a Viper, I wouldn't want to live with the fact that I killed or injured someone for something as petty as personal property, unless I felt threatened.

Let's hope this member fully recovers with no lasting effects, and everything comes out in the wash, and whomever made the mistake, whether it be him or law enforcement, that person is held personally (and monetarily) accountable.

 

[Jack B]

Warfang:

some of the same, a home invasion, they yell police police and have no uniforms or badges, you have a gun in hand, what do you do?

Before we go any further, the highest violent crime rates in N. American/European countries are those with strict gun laws. The least violent country is switzerland which requires all capable males to be part of the national guard with a gun in the home.

 

[trainville]

Warfang.....get a grip. If an officer turns and sees someone pointing a gun at him, he IS going to shoot - I guarantee it. We don't know whether he had time to anounce 'police' before shooting. NO, it's not a requirement to announce. Most agency's policies state that you shall announce 'police' and give commands WHEN POSSIBLE. Officers must be vigilant in protecting themselves and if someone......ANYONE points a gun at an officer, then he's gonna' get shot.

"The "pig" didn't have his wits about him to announce".... It's assumed by most of us that by pointing a firearm at an officer is a self-correcting error.

This is not a lesson for Police, but should be a lesson to homeowners. Do NOT point a gun at anything you're not going to shoot. Sure, go out on your porch with your gun - just don't start waiving it around until you've acquired a target and intend on shooting.

Fast Freddy - right on.

 

[Warfang]

Warfang:

some of the same, a home invasion, they yell police police and have no uniforms or badges, you have a gun in hand, what do you do?

Yeah... that *****, doesn't it? Unfortunately, I don't know it all, but these are good exercises to run through. Maybe some other folks here can chime in.

At 3am and jostled awake like that, you're not thinking straight. Your clue: no uniform or badges. I do not know of ANY departments that has as a policy of forced entry with no uniform, bagdes, or big POLICE in reflective cloth over their clothes. No cop wants to be mistaked for a home invader because they know people can shoot if they think their lives are in danger. I'd seek cover and ask for verification. If that's not possible, shoot first and sue later because they would be at fault. But it really depends on your position relative to theirs. If you see six dark figures standing over you with lights on you so ur nite vision is gone... drop your damn gun and take ur chances. But if they're down the hallway, it's on!

Now... let's say they looked on the internet and bought some police clothing... then you're REALLY screwed. All the more reason to refer to my rule #1. Be proactive. Perimeter security is worth every penny you put into it.

Before we go any further, the highest violent crime rates in N. American/European countries are those with strict gun laws. The least violent country is switzerland which requires all capable males to be part of the national guard with a gun in the home.

Not just any gun, but a fully automatic "assault rifle" (gasp)... one of the most accurate in the world.
http://www.swissrifles.com/

 

[Warfang]

Warfang.....get a grip. If an officer turns and sees someone pointing a gun at him, he IS going to shoot - I guarantee it. We don't know whether he had time to anounce 'police' before shooting. NO, it's not a requirement to announce. Most agency's policies state that you shall announce 'police' and give commands WHEN POSSIBLE. Officers must be vigilant in protecting themselves and if someone......ANYONE points a gun at an officer, then he's gonna' get shot.

"The "pig" didn't have his wits about him to announce".... It's assumed by most of us that by pointing a firearm at an officer is a self-correcting error.

This is not a lesson for Police, but should be a lesson to homeowners. Do NOT point a gun at anything you're not going to shoot. Sure, go out on your porch with your gun - just don't start waiving it around until you've acquired a target and intend on shooting.

Fast Freddy - right on.

I totally agree, if I'm in uniform... anyone that points a gun at me unprovoked while I'm walking down the street will get shot, and if that's the case with Robert's story, the shooting is justified. My bet is that it was not Robert's intention to gun down a law abiding police officer that night. Any officer tresspassing on private property, EVEN if he's in pursuit of a suspect, needs to be mindful of its occupants, or, as in this case... he becomes more dangerous to the property owner than the criminal.

But if I see a guy in a distance with a weapon in hand, not pointed directly at me, I would identify myself as a police officer, THEN tell him to put the gun down. Simple, no? To butcher an old saying, "There was a failure to communicate," on both parts. In that regards, both sides are at fault, if it were not for the fact that a cop is SUPPOSED to know how to communicate in times of crisis and not panic. The responsibility falls on the police to accept the dangers of protecting the community at large. So if he's on private property at night, he needs to be sure he's not shooting the wrong person, even if it means being vulnerable for a fraction of a second to identify himself. This is why, as a rule, cops don't shoot first and ask questions later. Fortunately for cops, they "should" be well trained and have faster reflexes than most.

From what I read they said he wouldn't back down AFTER being ordered to drop his gun... If you had all the time in the world to tell someone to drop their gun... the least you can do is throw the word POLICE in front of it. Training dictates you identify yourself before demanding compliance doesn't it? Or do you work for the KGB?

 

[klamathpro]

Apparently he was shot protecting his Viper according to this article: http://www.local6.com/news/8854925/detail.html

You can see his red SRT in the middle.

 

[Jay H]

Did anyone see the other story on that same website? Police Officer attacked As we just had the one year anniversry of a friend who was killed In the line of Duty by a 17 year old while about to get off shift. All I can say Is that its a crappy world we live In sometimes and Most police officers truly want to help and deserve more respect than they are given. Peter was 28 years old and had been a Metro Officer for a little over a year. He did everything right that morning and now he is dead. A meassage From Peters wife I hope everything turns out for the better In this case.

 

[Vic]

In defense of the police, here is an example of what can happen if an officer doesn't always have his gaurd up-

http://www.spikedhumor.com/articles/24929/Escaped_Convict_Assaults_Police_Officer.html

Its a tough job, thats why my dad told me to stay out of law enforcement. Its like wearing a big target on your back.

 

[99 R/T 10]

Hey Vic,
Then how about the example of our service members who are putting their lives on the line 10 fold in Iraq! Does anybody remember the case about 2 monbths ago where the cop shot a hispanic looking, unarmed, Air Force SP while on the ground! I'm sorry, but this is what has been sticking in my head. It was a clear case of cold blooded attemped ******!

 

[RedEnuf93]

"It now appears that the lotto winner was trying to protect some of his fleet of sports cars, when in a twist of bad luck, he was confronted by sheriff's deputies,"

"No citizen should arm themselves with a firearm and confront anybody in the middle of a field," Seminole County sheriff's Lt. Dennis Lemma said



Really? No citizen should arm themselves on their own property??? What the H3ll is this bull!!!!

 

[Torquemonster]

It's the middle of the night.

You're woken up or at least disturbed by realizing someone is on your property with searchlights. Your brain is not functioning yet but the adrenalin kicks in and you have a need to go and find out what the heck is going on out there on your own land.

You have a right to assume it's not the girl guides selling guide cookies

You are armed, ready to go because lets face it you have no idea what you are walking out to.

The Viper is your prized possession outside - so thinking it may be robbers hoping to steal it - you gravitate there.

It's DARK.

The cop sees you carrying a gun - which you are probably pointing in that direction out of common sense at this point.

They yell "DROP YOUR WEAPON!"

You think - "are you insane - you're hiding behind the flashlight and expect me to just drop and surrender on my own property - I've got at least an equal chance here"

The cop has time to repeat the request but at no time announces who he is.

That cop is going to be toast and likely deserves to be charged with attempted ****** by shooting not just once out of "panic" - but I understand it was 4 shots.

He was trained, the cicvilian was not - and had the right to challenge UNIDENTIFIED tresspassers in the middle of the night.

If you can't stand your ground on your own property until you know who you are facing - you are prisoners in your own homes if put into a situation...

take our country for example - gun laws help the police get more power (by taking your rights or at least ABILITY to defend your selves and force to to rely on THEM if they can be found in time - which of course they can't be) and politicians get even more power, and criminals have an easy time (so the people need MORE police and Govt intervention to keep the sheeple secure) - because an armed citizen is a criminal by definition in many parts of the world... and who wants to be a criminal? so the majority play safe and legal and are therefore DEFENSELESS.

More importantly - has any one got word on how Robert is progressing in hospital?

 

[Warfang]

Hey Vic,
Then how about the example of our service members who are putting their lives on the line 10 fold in Iraq! Does anybody remember the case about 2 monbths ago where the cop shot a hispanic looking, unarmed, Air Force SP while on the ground! I'm sorry, but this is waht has been sticking in my head. It was a clear case of cold blooded attemped ******!

The ABSOLUTE worst thing about that case was that the AF guy was doing his best to communicate to the cop. Sometimes there's just nothing you can do when your number is up. The pig just ignored what he said and fired away. I don't think it was ******... just pure stupidity and cowardice under pressure... manslaughter at best, but at LEAST take his badge and gun away forever!

 

[Ricksnake1]

He did not need a permit to have a weapon on his own property. Do we know Robert was not trained to carry a weapon? If he has a concealed weapons permit, he had to take a class before a right to carry permit was issued.

 

[Vic]

Hey Vic,
Then how about the example of our service members who are putting their lives on the line 10 fold in Iraq! Does anybody remember the case about 2 monbths ago where the cop shot a hispanic looking, unarmed, Air Force SP while on the ground! I'm sorry, but this is waht has been sticking in my head. It was a clear case of cold blooded attemped ******!

Yeah, I'm very aware of that case. That black officer there had a hair up his ass for the Hispanic "suspect". First of all, the officer got irritated at the Hispanic guy for jumping out of the passenger side in a heroic attempt to prevent his friend from getting a ticket. Note that he wasn't in uniform or anything, just some guy that has a brave notion of defending his friend. That is the beginning of the error in that situation, (not counting evading arrest!). There was a lot of shouting before the incident, and I'd say there may have been some male competitiveness, bravado, pride and race mixed all together. The tape clearly shows the Hispanic guy was following orders, at least when the officer opened fire.

In California prisons, there are ever increasing race riots, where the Hispanics are attacking the blacks. Hispanics now outnumber the blacks in prison by like 2 to 1, and this is making them bolder. I have a feeling that this is spilling over into the blue crew, as they are more aware of this than the general public. The black officer was no doubt aware of the tons of illegals who can ****** cops in the US, flee across the border, and not fear extradition from Mexico to answer for their crimes. Its a very tense situation now, with no end in sight.

Out here in Los Angeles, the police commssion seems to find most officers justified in using deadly force, in spite of all the facts and witnesses to the contrary, even in spite of video tape. An officer's word is not questioned above a local on-the-scene witness. The district atty rarely gets involved, unless there is a riot or something that forces their hand. (A la Rodney King) They make up all kinds of unbelievable bullsh*t to explain what obviously looks like police abuse on video tape. "Well, at first viewing, the tape seems to show the officer kicking the handcuffed, horizontal suspect in the head as he lay there on the ground, but actually, the suspect was going for the officers gun, and the officer was "in fear from his life" I made that one up, but thats how stupid and shallow their excuses sound. There have been so many incidents, its an epidemic of police shootings out here in Los Angeles, kids, old folks, traffic infractions, unarmed citicens, you name it. No matter what, they always claim they were "in fear for their life", thats their "get out of jail free card" and they use it liberally. The hispanic and black citicenry look at the police like an occupying army. The rift between the police and citicens is huge, and getting wider. And don't forget that the illegals and gang members are murdering officers too, just for initiation into a gang.

I wouldn't want to be a cop in Los Angeles, its too hard to behave in accordance with the law, and not let the criminals get the jump on you. Our country in de-volving into a third world state. Jail costs for illegals in California is approaching $175,000,000 a year. They clog up the emergency rooms in hospitals, so much so that some hospitals shut down their emegency rooms. They drive and get in accidents with no insurance, and the law abiding middle class citicens take it in the shorts. Its a huge human problem. The major benficiary of cheap labor is business, and in their quest for higher profits, they dump their labor force into the laps of the middle class, whose taxes pay for law enforcement, prisons, health care, insurance, etc, etc. Those who benefit from cheap, illegal labor are not teh ones who have to pay for the human problem they create, it is dumped into the laps of teh middle class taxpayers. We need to quit letting employers hire illegals, make 'em pay stiff fines, and that will remove some of the attraction to cross the border.

That is the underlying issue, behind the police issues. Police issues are a symptom of economics.

 

[99 R/T 10]

This is why we need a 50 foot high wall laced with barbwire and do a systimatic removal of all illegals. Don't get me started on this subject, re-opening an open wound. They are getting away with ****** here in Alabama too

 

[ViperRay]

That's a good analysis Vic.

Let's hope there is a solution.

 

[Warfang]

This is why we need a 50 foot high wall laced with barbwire and do a systimatic removal of all illegals. Don't get me started on this subject, re-opening an open wound. They are getting away with ****** here in Alabama too

Some guy in new mexico caught a couple tresspassing and held them at gunpoint, then threw em out. The rats got a lawyer, sued him for unlawful imprisonment and took his land! [******]!??

 

[Vic]

Bush called the Minute Men "vigilantes". I'd like to know what he is doing about the death threats (contract?) the Mexican mafia has put out on our Border Guards? The Mexican drug cartel regulary conducts business on our side of the border, and has vowed to kill US law enforcement agents. Thats an attack on our sovereignty.

The Minute Men are charging the federal government with dereliction of duty for failing to defend our borders, and are building a wall with private money.

 

[venms96]

Warfang, I think you've posted enough on this one, what's that, 7 now...
You have a BIG mouth, and everytime there is a Cop post, you can't wait to jump in and show off your "expertise" and use idiotic words like, "pigs". Does that make you feel good using that word ? You sound like a left wing, bleeding heart liberal from the Left Coast. Using a word like Pig makes you sound like an old dummy for sure. You got some strong opinions, too strong if you ask me, and you have an obvious hate towards authority. You have the right to free speech, and so do I. F off !

venms96

 

[Boxer12]

Cops are smarter than you.

Proof #1- They generally shoot to kill so there is only one side of the story, theirs.

Proof #2- They know to ALWAYS say you had a GUN or something that looked like a gun and were doing something MENACING before they shot.

Proof #3- They have a badge nice blue uniform (for credibility in court, not on the street) and you don't.

Proof #4- They know ahead of time (in fact, are well trained) how to state a defense to deadly force claims so as to avoid liability to the department.

(This is what I gathered after representing Sheriff Deputies in police misconduct case's in Federal Court for 10 years.)

What are the facts of this case? Believe me, you will never know unless the victim (that's the official name for him, not mine) recovers enough to talk. Maybe he will thank the police for being there to defend his property and apologize for interfering and getting shot, maybe he will tell another story. Time will tell. One thing is for sure, one of these guys deserves an apology! Has the cop ever said "I'm sorry", that is, after he learned that he shot an innocent homeowner?

In any event, get well soon Robert! I am praying for your full recovery!

 

[dansauto]

This is a tough call. Some facts need to be pointed out.
Was the property secure (did the police break in or was the gate open) The reason being that if they were suspious of something and broke in you have every right to protect yourself especially if they dont announce who they are. I can assure you 100% that if I am sleeping in my house and get woke up by someone creeping around inside I am not going to be asking alot of questions before I start shooting. No one has any right to break into my secure residence. I think there is alot more to this story however, its never black and white.

 

[propsail]

This is what I gathered after representing Sheriff Deputies in police misconduct case's in Federal Court for 10 years.)

So are you saying that you're a lawyer who knew cops were lying and defended them anyway? Is that your point? Remind me again, who's the snake we should be watching out for?

 

[Warfang]

Warfang, I think you've posted enough on this one, what's that, 7 now...
You have a BIG mouth, and everytime there is a Cop post, you can't wait to jump in and show off your "expertise" and use idiotic words like, "pigs". Does that make you feel good using that word ? You sound like a left wing, bleeding heart liberal from the Left Coast. Using a word like Pig makes you sound like an old dummy for sure. You got some strong opinions, too strong if you ask me, and you have an obvious hate towards authority. You have the right to free speech, and so do I. F off !

venms96

Just to clarify: cops= good police officers, pigs=BAD police officers. I hate the ABUSE and NEGLECT of authority. I've wielded authority, and I saw it abused daily by people you seem to put up on a pedestal, and the people in charge encourage it. So, IMHO, every bad cop needs to be dragged out and systematically shot for abusing the trust of the people they SERVE. There are plenty of good cops out there that deserve respect, but the pigs just make their job all that much harder... or are you under the assumption that everyone wearing a badge is good?

Shows what you know... I don't think anyone here will accuse me of being left of anything... I'm a flaming righty. The founding fathers were all too familiar with abuse of power. That is why our government has a series of checks and balances. You seem to think PIGS can just wander the earth, worshipped and unquestioned. Don't believe the lie: only the extreme left thinks authority should never be questioned... as long as it's THEIR authority. You, sir... seem like the lefty here (you're probably not, but calling someone a lefty is the worst insult I can think of).

At least we can agree that left is bad and right is at least not as bad as left... and being in the middle of the road only means you get hit from both sides of traffic.

 

[propsail]

Just a question about first impressions, Warfang: When you first see a cop, is he/she automatically a "pig" that has to prove himself/herself to be a "good" cop to you?

Not a slam. Just curious.