Vette Forum's ZR1 vs ACR challenge?

[Next Phase]

I had some respect for Lou before reading that thread...

 

[Dr. Sandman]

Try and try as they might the bowtie guys just couldn't get the ZR1 to beat the 7:22 time put down at the "ring" by a stock ACR with a driver with very little seat time.This was a less than a perfect run.The car should easily put down a 7:18 or less.The ZR1 still has not beat that 7:22.Good luck.

 

[SnakeBitten]

Lot of arrogance here too.

Someone mentioned how the ZR1 costs more than the viper, and that 10-20K should be put into superchargers, carbon fiber, etc.. What about putting that money into the driving aids the vette has that the viper doesn't, or the comforts, luxury, etc.. that the zr1 has over the acr.

Stock vs Stock, the ACR is proven faster by a fraction.
Put the same tires on each car, and the corvette could be faster.
Same tires + removing those creature comforts on the ZR1 = faster ZR1 (and much ligher than the acr at that)
All above + Put the supercharger on the ACR = probably faster ACR

There are things you can do to either car to make it faster and give it an edge over the other.

At the end of the day though, when there are so many more corvette drivers that actually track their car on a road course, its kinda pointless for viper guys to hold on to a 2 second victory when they themselves have never put their car on a road course.

I track my viper almost every other weekend, and only once did I see an ACR-X put in a session. The last time I saw another viper on the road course was 2 years ago. I see at LEAST one corvette EVERY TIME I'm on the course. In may cases, its 10+ corvettes to my 1 viper.

At the amateur level, regardless of what model corvette or viper you have, at the track it simply comes down to your racing line, traction and HP. Any one can band-aid another. If you have the line figured out and want to go faster, you either put on better tires or add more HP. And since the ZR1 doesn't race in ANY competitive series, it doesn't make any sense to compare the cars in a spec class.

For the record, I have a C5 Z06, and contemplated buying a C6 Z06. However, as C5 simply collects dust in the garage, I see no point in buying another corvette that will just like every other corvette on the road, base model to ZR1.

Where are you getting that the ACR is faster on a track than the ZR1 by only a fraction The ACR was faster by 4 secs at the 12.9 mile Nurburgring on a gimp run while the ZR1 was developed on the Ring lol, 3 secs on a 4.2 mile VIR track, about 2 secs at the 2.2 mile Laguna Seca raceway. Stock to stock that is a HUGE difference not a fraction. Your whole post is invalidated by this myopic sentence. I wont even go into the idiotic "if game" you followed with after the previous "fraction" statement.

One question to you. Why do you have to add or subtract things to the ZR1 to beat a stock Viper? Simple answer. Because the ACR is faster by alot. If the difference in performance was a fraction between them then you wouldnt need to do all that modding or subtracting to be as fast or faster. You defeated your own argument on your own.

Also notice that your argument for the ZR1 being faster is that it needs mods and the that the ACR has to remain stock Can you not see the huge flaw it this type of thinking/argument?

 

[ViperTony]

At the end of the day...why would anyone care what the Corvette Forum thinks about the ACR? Is it a slow news day or something?

 

[Kala]

At the end of the day...why would anyone care what the Corvette Forum thinks about the ACR? Is it a slow news day or something?

It's testosterone Wednesday...

Guys are jumping from one forum to another... Don't try to stop them

It's pouring rain here in Cali, so cabin fever must be setting in

 

[Magnus_]

The ACR was faster by 4 secs at the 12.9 mile Nurburgring on a gimp run while the ZR1 was developed on the Ring lol, 3 secs on a 4.2 mile VIR track, about 2 secs at the 2.2 mile Laguna Seca raceway.

How often do you track your car, or go to the track?

With an amateur driver those differences are not huge. 4 seconds on a 12.9 mile course is small even if you're a pro driver.

On a course like the ring for example, with MANY big straights, screw up the apex before a straight just once and there's a huge loss, nail it and there's a great gain.

Also, your stats alone show that there are so many variances, 3 sec on a 4.2 mile course but only 1 more sec with 8.7 miles more of track?

Speculate all you want, but don't claim to know for a fact what would go down if two equally talented drivers took two stock cars and ran time trials at various tracks.

We also don't know how hard any of those drivers were pushing. 8/10, 9/10, 10/10?? The difference between running my car at 8/10 at one track can result in a 1:35, and running it at 9/10 and 10/10 on a couple of corners can be a 1:33. On a course like road america, 4+ miles, the difference is 5+ seconds.

Heads up racing between the two cars is not a good comparison either.. If people want to speculate, stick to the time trials.

 

[SnakeBitten]

How often do you track your car, or go to the track?

With an amateur driver those differences are not huge. 4 seconds on a 12.9 mile course is small even if you're a pro driver.

On a course like the ring for example, with MANY big straights, screw up the apex before a straight just once and there's a huge loss, nail it and there's a great gain.

Also, your stats alone show that there are so many variances, 3 sec on a 4.2 mile course but only 1 more sec with 8.7 miles more of track?

Speculate all you want, but don't claim to know for a fact what would go down if two equally talented drivers took two stock cars and ran time trials at various tracks.

Heads up racing between the two cars is not a good comparison either.. If people want to speculate, stick to the time trials.

You only picked the Ring example lol. Did you look at the ZR1 vs ACR Ring video? Did you not see all the problems the race driver had just making that 7:22? Couldn't use 5th gear because of the down force and 25mile hour head wind, banging on limiter, bottoming out, gearing not suited for the Ring etc? And yet it was still 4 seconds faster than a ZR1 that was developed and tested on the Ring with multiple months and runs on said track. If you think the 7:22 was the best from the ACR with just a half a day testing then you are very biased.

Lets assume the 4 sec difference on the Rings 12.9 miles is purely tires and driver etc. What accounts for the ACR being almost 3 secs faster at VIR, 2 sec faster at Laguna on MUCH MUCH shorter tracks than the Nurburgring? If what you claim is true then the ZR1 would be fractions behind the ACR at these super short tracks like Laguna etc. That is NOT the case.

As for the Ring the Viper didn't make it past 159mph or so on that super long back straight on the Ring. Can you imagine the seconds the ZR1 made up just on that straight alone being able to hit 180+mph. While the Viper run was saddled with 25mph headwind adding to that 1000lb down force which limited it to a max of 159 in 4th gear on that same back straight? This would be seen as excuses if the Viper was slower than the ZR1. Vette guys would be saying "run what you brung", stock to stock the Viper lost etc. But the fact is, despite the ACR not being setup for the Ring [gearing. suspension, aero], it still beat the ZR1. It is clearly the much better track car by a margin much greater than your "fraction".

The 2010 ACR's fixed those problems. What do you think will happen to the ZR1 now stock to stock since it wont have the earlier ACR disadvantages to exploit? It was already 4 secs behind the old one. I love both vehicles an I believe the ZR1 is the better all around car hands down but when you bring up track performance and try to put the GT ZR1 vs full bore sports car ACR, the ZR1 will lose.

BTW all your arguments are based on "if's". Why are those "ifs" only in the ZR1's side of the fence. What "if" the ACR had CC Brakes, a Paxton, lost a few lbs, came with race headers, exhaust, tune, was developed on the Ring etc...See???You can't apply if's to one while the other one stays static if you want a logical argument.

 

[1BADGTS]

This is why we have track records which clearly indicate on the road course the ACR is clearly superior and on the drag strip the ZR-1 prevails .Stock is stock none of this if i changed the tires on the Vette or if the Viper had a blower ect

 

[goldcup]

I attended the tech session at VOI , one of the engineers that went to Germany with the car said the driver felt sure with some additional runs the car would run it in the teens!!!

 

[Lee00blacksilverGTS]

As I said, arrogance.

Lou is a ********* racer. He's all about building cars and race parts, and proves those parts on his track cars that compete in actual series. He has more real world race experience than probably all of us in this thread combined, then multiplied by 1000.

Lou's a straight shooter. I'm pretty sure he's just telling you like it is, as he sees it.

Track, try finding a cheaper sequential RACE trans. Racing at the level he does is very expensive. Watch some ALMS and look at C6R's. Every component is top dollar, state of the art engineering, super light, and expensive. That's the nature of competitive racing.

There sure is a lot of arrogance on the corvetteforum, but there sure is a lot here too. The viper guys challenging Lou on the corvette forum is just plain sad. It just makes us look bad.

FYI i just posted over there as Keith@HPTuners

He may a straight shooter but if his idea of an equal shootout is to take his Z with 40k worth of mods including just as much aero as the ACR has to prove which car stock is a better track car, then he is not shooting very straight. I was really surprised by that.
If that's the case we should just match him up with Ben Keating in his ACRX. A signifcanly less expensive car than Lou's if he has 40k in mods on top of the Z price.
And frankly I don't think we look bad over there, everyone has been respectful.

 

[1fast400]

How often do you track your car, or go to the track?

With an amateur driver those differences are not huge. 4 seconds on a 12.9 mile course is small even if you're a pro driver.

On a course like the ring for example, with MANY big straights, screw up the apex before a straight just once and there's a huge loss, nail it and there's a great gain.

Also, your stats alone show that there are so many variances, 3 sec on a 4.2 mile course but only 1 more sec with 8.7 miles more of track?

Speculate all you want, but don't claim to know for a fact what would go down if two equally talented drivers took two stock cars and ran time trials at various tracks.

We also don't know how hard any of those drivers were pushing. 8/10, 9/10, 10/10?? The difference between running my car at 8/10 at one track can result in a 1:35, and running it at 9/10 and 10/10 on a couple of corners can be a 1:33. On a course like road america, 4+ miles, the difference is 5+ seconds.

Heads up racing between the two cars is not a good comparison either.. If people want to speculate, stick to the time trials.

So by your logic, no matter who wins, there is always an excuse? Unless "the other" side wins?

 

[Viper X]

Viper Days will be at Spring Mountain in Pahrump, Nevada October 22, 23 and 24.

Lou has worked with Viper Days in the past and knows the people. He and other Vette owners should come out and drive the track with us - there's plenty of room still available.

The ACR X series final and VRL series will be running and the ACR X series will be nationally televised.

I've already invited a few SCCA club level drivers (of ZR1's) to come out and drive with us. I hope they show up.

Dan

 

[Magnus_]

SnakeBitten, I saw the vid. I have multiple versions of both vids saved on my PC, along with side by side vids, etc..

We have a few facts. Where the ACR has beaten the ZR1. Everything else is speculation, "ifs".

This whole Stock vs Stock debate is pretty pointless. Like Lou said, nobody leaves their track day car stock. Tires, Pads, Seat, Suspension, all get changed out or adjusted pretty quickly. I can't recall the last time I saw a bone stock corvette or viper take a spin around the track when I'm there.

One area the vette has a HUGE advantage over us is a result of its massive production numbers. There are so many proven parts out for the corvette, proven setups, information, etc.. There are very little parts/setups/info available for our cars. This reason alone is a great reason to pick a corvette as your platform. I had a Z06 before I got my Viper, and already knew this. I still prefer the viper. Its just so unique, and is really a different animal to drive than a Z06.

Stock vs Stock though, the ACR has shown to out perform the ZR1 in some places, in different conditions, with different drivers. I'm sure there are tracks where the ZR1 could out perform the ACR though too.

With more runs at the ring I'm sure both cars could have gotten their numbers down even further. At the end of the day it does make sense given what SnakeBitten has said, that the ACR would be quicker, but, I'm sure there's still a lot of potential in the ZR1 as well, so who knows. All we know now is that the ACR currently holds a faster time.

Lee, if I read correctly, Lou said he didn't want to demod his cars for this challenge. He also said he'd be interested in a stock vs stock battle as well, if a stock ZR1 were to become available.

1fast400, I agree with that 100%. In these ford vs chevy, corvette vs viper, domestic vs import debates everyone loses. As someone mentioned already, thanks to the Z06 we got a 3rd gen viper, thanks to the 3rd gen we got the ZR1, thanks to the ZR1 we got the ACR... However you want to spin that, it works out well for both teams.

Both cars are awesome, and I'd be happy to drive either around the track at 8/10'ths every other weekend.

 

[Magnus_]

Dan, I'd come out that weekend but I'll be tracking up at Road America.

 

[Viper X]

Like Magnus, I track my ACR whenever possible.

I have noticed that the ZR1's start out pretty fast in the morning, then heat soak quickly as the day warms up, especially in longer sessions. I've tried supercharged cars at the track and didn't have much luck. Perhaps as technology improves, so will supercharging.

I'll stick with the big NA Viper for now.....

Hope to see some of you at Spring Mountain.

Dan

 

[RTTTTed]

I haven't seen any Viper guys disrespect or challenge Lou. They are just asking him to support his claim that the ZR1 is a faster/better track car.


VVVVV------

Maybe Lou, whoever he is should take his car to theRing and try to beat the Record that was set by the 2008 ACR (not even the 2010 ACR with it's faster trans and much faster aeros nor that the wing has been radically redesigned).

The 2010 spoiler has vents that work with the spoiler and help prevent "spilloff" around corners. If he doesn't know what that means then he should just race the slower 2008. He could ask the SRT engineers or Herb Helbig for an explanation of what it means.

Since the SRT engineers said that the OLD ACR could/should have gone 7:17 without the overrevving and the missed shifts - I'd guess that the OLD ACR is 10 seconds faster than the ZR1 and I won't even try to make a guess how much faster the 2010 is now that it's been optimized - but it's a lot faster.

Sorry vette guys, the Viper also set the Laguna seca record so go there and try to beat that one out ...

Also the 09 ACR and Greg Phillips own the record at Race City and the old record was set when Greg tried out a 1,000hp Heffner Lamboghini.

Ted

 

[Twister]

It took us gen3 viper guys a while to except that the C6Z06 was faster in a straight line. despite the videos and mag comparisons ect many of us were in denial that a lowly vette could out acellerate a viper in a straight line. Eventually we came to terms with it and it is now common knowledge that stock for stock a C6Z06 is faster than a gen3 viper...

same thing is happening hear..C6Z06 was on top from 2006-2008...Then the ACR comes out and blows the C6z06 away in every performance catergory imaginable...

But shortly after the 2009 supervette ZR1 emerges....

guess what gm guys..its a great car but it came up a lil short. the acr has proven over and over and over again to be the faster track car

You can change the tires and arodynamics ect. on any thing..but the bottom line is that just like for a few years their we had to acept that the C6z06 was faster than any viper...You now have to make amends that the ACR is faster than any corvette...


ACR>ZR1......get over it

 

[evomind]

of course i prefer the viper, but some of you are talking like the zr1 is a 73 vega or something. lol
honestly guys, r compounds are gonna make a huge difference in track times over street tires.
i hope no one burns a cross in my front yard for that

 

[Dr. Sandman]

At some point look for Dodge to return to the Nurburgring with a 2010 stock ACR for another go.You can be sure it will be a faster time than last time.They have all been too busy working on another project.

 

[Whoaa GTS]

I would love to see what an ACRX, full slicks, and lots of laps could do at the ring.

 

[RTTTTed]

of course i prefer the viper, but some of you are talking like the zr1 is a 73 vega or something. lol
honestly guys, r compounds are gonna make a huge difference in track times over street tires.
i hope no one burns a cross in my front yard for that

Sorry, but you're incorrect.

At the SRT tech session I attended we were informed that GM DID go back to the ring and tried running sport cups on their ZR1 to beat the ACRs time. Of course you didn't hear about that failure, did you? I heard a rumor. Anyway, the ZR1 did get PS2s and GM did order much softer rubber on their tires than what comes on the Viper spec PS2s. Also, GM was not informed of the spec on the Dodge tires - because Michelin is considered a "partner" of the SRT team, not a GM partner, lol.

To check the difference in the time between the Pilot Sport 2s and the Sport Cups the Dodge SRT buys had Kuno run his comp coupe around the track after a race he won. The difference between the 2 sets of tires was pnly 1 second. The SRT engineers said that the Sport Cups will also last longer on the race track than a set of PS2s.

I love SRT tech sessions and really wish that Dodge would make a "Racer's Bible" for the Viper. If they did everyone that read the Chassis and Engine Performance Manuals would become an expert ... like the old days of Hustle Stuff, direct Connection and Mopar Performance.

 

[RTTTTed]

I would love to see what an ACRX, full slicks, and lots of laps could do at the ring.

That would be ridiculous. Figure 6:45? Sure would do an interesting number on the Ferrari 599XXX. 'Course the 599XXX is a "one off" "production car" and although you could buy it $1.2 million bucks, you're not allowed to take it home and probably not allowed to drive it? Yet Ferrari says it's a production car?

Wonder how the 512 Challenger Drag Pak would do against every car ever built on a drag strip. I'm sure that it's teh world's fastest production car since the Hemi 'cuda. 9.30@148mph wow.

Guess Dodge SRT should have a new motto; Dodge Does It again. or Dodge Kicks Asp Again.

 

[Kala]

I agree it would be great to have a 2010 ACR and the ACR-X go back to the ring! It might be interesting to have both Coronel and Wittmer drive a few laps One has intimate knowledge of the Ring and held the record, the other has lots of seat time in a Viper and probably hasn't been to the ring... It would be interesting...

I didn't know until yesterday that some of the companies like Porsche, didn't run the same start / finish that we did. The GT2 RS ran 4 seconds faster on the ring, traveled 230 meters less than the Viper. I know thats not 4 seconds, but I'd like to see apples to apples... Why'd they do that?

Also the GT2 RS wasn't confirmed by anyone. It's listed as a manufacturer claim.
I would think if you were going to spend the $ to go for a record. You would have someone confirm the car as stock. I have not found a video either... Why'd they do that?

 

[Black Mamba]

I agree it would be great to have a 2010 ACR and the ACR-X go back to the ring! It might be interesting to have both Coronel and Wittmer drive a few laps One has intimate knowledge of the Ring and held the record, the other has lots of seat time in a Viper and probably hasn't been to the ring... It would be interesting...

I didn't know until yesterday that some of the companies like Porsche, didn't run the same start / finish that we did. The GT2 RS ran 4 seconds faster on the ring, traveled 230 meters less than the Viper. I know thats not 4 seconds, but I'd like to see apples to apples... Why'd they do that?

Also the GT2 RS wasn't confirmed by anyone. It's listed as a manufacturer claim.
I would think if you were going to spend the $ to go for a record. You would have someone confirm the car as stock. I have not found a video either... Why'd they do that?

There's no video of the GT2 RS running a 7:18 because it never actually ran a 7:18 lap. Porsche ran the GT2 RS around the ring in sections then later compiled the times and claimed a 7:18 lap.

Not saying the GT2 RS isn't capable of running a 7:18 lap, but each manufacturer is sort of "doing their own thing" when it comes to generating these laptimes.

The revised 2012 GTR is at the ring now, so I guess it wont be long before we hear Nissan announce a new GTR laptime.

 

[Kala]

The revised 2012 GTR is at the ring now, so I guess it wont be long before we hear Nissan announce a new GTR laptime.

Then Porsche will buy 2 new GTR's and take them to the ring and say they couldn't get within 25 seconds of Nissans claim?




Thanks for clarifying the 7:18 time for me... they did it but didn't really do it... I get it...

 

[ACR steve]

ACR owner here available and willing to compare here in North East

 

[evomind]

Sorry, but you're incorrect.

At the SRT tech session I attended we were informed that GM DID go back to the ring and tried running sport cups on their ZR1 to beat the ACRs time. Of course you didn't hear about that failure, did you? I heard a rumor. Anyway, the ZR1 did get PS2s and GM did order much softer rubber on their tires than what comes on the Viper spec PS2s. Also, GM was not informed of the spec on the Dodge tires - because Michelin is considered a "partner" of the SRT team, not a GM partner, lol.

To check the difference in the time between the Pilot Sport 2s and the Sport Cups the Dodge SRT buys had Kuno run his comp coupe around the track after a race he won. The difference between the 2 sets of tires was pnly 1 second. The SRT engineers said that the Sport Cups will also last longer on the race track than a set of PS2s.

I love SRT tech sessions and really wish that Dodge would make a "Racer's Bible" for the Viper. If they did everyone that read the Chassis and Engine Performance Manuals would become an expert ... like the old days of Hustle Stuff, direct Connection and Mopar Performance.

im incorrect about what exactly?
you mean where i said r compounds make a huge difference over street tires on a race track?
if you say so.
i never said who would win or anything. just said tires make a huge diff on a track.
r compounds make a huge difference on a track over street tires.

 

[FLL-B/W-GTS]

Like so many of us Viper owners.We could not decide.Both are great American Muscle Cars.Get both.The only problem I have is which one to drive and take to the track.



2008 Viper Coupe
2009 Corvette ZR1
2010 Ford Raptor SVT 6.2

 

[SnakeBitten]

Like so many of us Viper owners.We could not decide.Both are great American Muscle Cars.Get both.The only problem I have is which one to drive and take to the track.



2008 Viper Coupe
2009 Corvette ZR1
2010 Ford Raptor SVT 6.2

If you had an ACR you wouldn't have that problem Sweet stable btw.

 

[FLL-B/W-GTS]

I waiting to get my Gen 5 ACR. Thanks