Viper PURIST, what is the line/definitiion

05Commemorative

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I must admit, I have been a little frustrated reading various posts about the "purest" and what they like/don't like with the new car. Anyway, made me think to as the question what is the line or definition for the purest

Taken to the extremes, the purist would not accept the power steering or brakes, EFI, ABS, radial tires, disc brakes, electronic ignition, power windows, AC, radio, etc. (ie., think you barebones stock 1965 corvette or AC Cobra as I have owned both), although the disc brake rule is broken.

For me, the above is extreme and if you agreed, then you would quickly realize no Viper ever qualified for the "purest" and you wee stuck in the early 60's.

So, what is the line and why? I suspect the line changes over time and that is what folks have a hard time with. For many EFI is ok, but not to others. In recent post today, I surprised to discover ABS is ok for some and not others.

So, what is your line/defintion?
 

01sapphirebob

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The way I define it is those owners who want the car out of the box the way it is. Not having to option up to a higher level to get things. From '92-'10 the car came one way (as far as performance) and that was it. You didn't have to option up to the "GTS" trim level to get adjustable suspension etc. Now I know some are gonna point out that the ACR was an option so maybe my time frame is a little to broad. So lets even take it back further to define the "purist" moniker. '92-'98...back then the only options you had were RT/10 or GTS, what color, stripes or not (and that was just a GTS option, and removable hardtop or not (only an RT/10 Option). And yet even then... all of those "options" were only for the '98 model year.

I consider myself a "purist." To me the GEN I & II Vipers are the best. Classic Viper look, little if any options, and it was the best performance you could buy at the time. The way it came out of the factory was it. Now all that being said I embrace the changes that SRT had done and am just so excited to see the new car and am thankful that there is two versions of this wonderful car for us to buy. :)
 

DMan

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Oh brother, get the popcorn.
:eater:

To me, the whole nannies talk is all getting old. Why have AC, can't use on-track, why leather seats, they're heavy, radio?, uh no, to some anything at all that's not a gutted racecar is not a viper. Everybody has preferences, some don't track at all, some are like me and do 4-6 days a yr, some only track, can't have one car be perfect for all those groups, but if there are more than 1 model viper than it's degrading the car too. There's no win or right answer, or whatever. If you don't like the new technology, then turn it off, you can defeat just about any system you want. If you say you don't like how it makes the car more $, then what you're really saying is you can't afford the car, so ... OK.

The way I see SRT did the best they can under the rules and the hugely diverse drivers they need to serve, all with essentially one car, at least we got 2 levels to it, thank you SRT.

And for the record, I'm not a technology guy in cars, yes I turn the TC off & hate having to wait the 5 secs for it to turn off, no I don't install a 24" touch screen radio whatever, but I just buy it & hit the off button, or don't. I don't see what there is to debate about this stuff, are we trying to overturn the mandates on airbags, ABS, rearview cameras?? If so, we need to get a political candidate picked out of the forum ... personally, I nominate Chuck, we mostly think similarly on this topic, I just don't get the talking & talking about it myself. Just press the off button already. :dunno:
 

Chuck 98 RT/10

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I must admit, I have been a little frustrated reading various posts about the "purest" and what they like/don't like with the new car. Anyway, made me think to as the question what is the line or definition for the purest

Taken to the extremes, the purist would not accept the power steering or brakes, EFI, ABS, radial tires, disc brakes, electronic ignition, power windows, AC, radio, etc. (ie., think you barebones stock 1965 corvette or AC Cobra as I have owned both), although the disc brake rule is broken.

For me, the above is extreme and if you agreed, then you would quickly realize no Viper ever qualified for the "purest" and you wee stuck in the early 60's.

So, what is the line and why? I suspect the line changes over time and that is what folks have a hard time with. For many EFI is ok, but not to others. In recent post today, I surprised to discover ABS is ok for some and not others.

So, what is your line/defintion?

I determine what is acceptable and what is not for the entire automotive enthusiasts world. I have advisors but ultimately I am the dictator.

Power steering - reluctantly accepted because it is not an electronic driver aid.
Power brakes - same as ps.
EFI - electronic fuel injection is not a driver aid and has no effect on driver skill. Accepted.
Radial tires - They are not a driver nanny. Accepted.
Disc brakes - not a driver nanny. Accepted.
Electronic ignition - not a driver nanny. Accepted.
Power windows - not a driver nanny. Accepted.
AC - not a driver nanny. Accepted.
Radio - worthless, of little or no value but not a driver nanny. Accepted if it is capable of playing AC/DC and goes to 11.

You're welcome.

I see you left out the obvious ones. And the reason you left them out is because it is obvious to anyone with with even an ounce of auto enthusiasm what a driver nanny is.
 

Allan

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I determine what is acceptable and what is not for the entire automotive enthusiasts world. I have advisors but ultimately I am the dictator.

Power steering - reluctantly accepted because it is not an electronic driver aid.
Power brakes - same as ps.
EFI - electronic fuel injection is not a driver aid and has no effect on driver skill. Accepted.
Radial tires - They are not a driver nanny. Accepted.
Disc brakes - not a driver nanny. Accepted.
Electronic ignition - not a driver nanny. Accepted.
Power windows - not a driver nanny. Accepted.
AC - not a driver nanny. Accepted.
Radio - worthless, of little or no value but not a driver nanny. Accepted if it is capable of playing AC/DC and goes to 11.

You're welcome.

I see you left out the obvious ones. And the reason you left them out is because it is obvious to anyone with with even an ounce of auto enthusiasm what a driver nanny is.
You and I are playing for the same team. :headbang:
 

Allan

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This may sound dumb to alot of the community, but I did not want to trade up to the gen IV car (even though it's admittedly a 'better car') because there's no way I would give up my throttle cable for a 'drive by wire' car. I also don't like the smooth idle.:rolleyes:
 

Vic

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Once, we were having a discussion about variable downforce, or variable power steering, I don't remember which it was. Some guy blurts out that a Viper reigns supreme with "variable nothing", showing his disdain for any of what he perceived as an aid to driving. It was a bit odd, like a hick screaming at a movie screen in the middle of nowhere. He was like, any variable stuff was a political issue, a concession to the liberal left, and an affront to his masculinity. He was the type who would definitely identify himself as a Viper purist, and acted as if his manhood was tied to his vehicle, a car that in his estimation, had absolutely no variable features whatsover. If that were so, he wouldn't like it at all, cuz it would just be a stationary lump of metal and plastic. I just responded that his Gen4 had a variable cam, because it's a good idea. It shows that our attitude towards our cars are more emotional, than factual. He thought his Viper had "variable nothing", and that put his thoughts in his happy place. That's how he preferred to think of it, as if all issues could be viewed as either black, or white. Infantile reasoning, and the technical truth of the issue is far deeper than that.

If you think about it, all Vipers have at least the following-

Variable angle to the suspension control arms. (If it didn't, it would ride and handle worse than a haywagon)
Variable steering angle (without which, you couldn't go around corners)
Variable height pistons, so you can have "****, squeeze, bang and blow". (idk, that sounds kinda *****, might be a communist plot)
Variable position valve stems, that allow alternate sealing of intake and exhaust passages
Variable speeds between the rear wheels, (a diff, to allow outer wheels to turn faster than inner wheels, while both are under power)
Variable door positions, so you can get in and out
Variable trunk lid position, so you can put stuff in, and take it out
Variable hood position, so you can work on, or stare at, that monster!
Variable coolant flow (T-stat closed for quick warm-up)
Variable height hydraulic lifters, (Take up valve train lash when pumped up)
Variable spark advance (For proper combustion at variable rpms)
Variable tire pressure, (for variable track conditions)
Variable fuel flow, (push the right pedal down, for more flow! Kinda ties in to "variable speed"!)
Variable brake pedal modulation (to scrub off that variable speed)
Variable speed windshield wipers, (useful for variable rain drops)
Variable headlights (high beam, low beam)
Variable radio volume
Variable gear ratios, for variable speeds
Variable dash board lights, for variable ambient light, or just your preferrence

Some later Vipers added even more variable features, such as (some maybe earlier, but I've never spent any time with a Gen1, so idk)

Variable height windows (Electric, evidently for sissys who don't prefer cranks)(but even cranks are variable!)(and no, not gen1)
Variable mirrors, (for drivers of variable heights)
Variable seat backs ""
Variable seat position ""
Variable pedals ""
Variable temperature and fan controls
Variable cam phasing
Variable valving in the shock resevoirs (for variable track conditions)
Variable angle front splitter ""
Variable angle rear wing ""

Did I miss any of those communist-*** variables?

I don't like the Nissan GTR's Atessa all-wheel-drive system, that lets any idiot bury his foot in the throttle from the apex all the way to corner exit, and it apportions the torque for maximum grip and exit speed. That's how a 3900 pound, ~500 hp pig does a 7:24 on the Ring, with computerized torque vectoring. That's just too damm lame, too much computer control. The driver is just a putz, piloting a computerized car. Almost doesn't even need a driver, like a Google driverless-car they got going around now.

Torque vectoring diffs aren't as bad, not as obvious, but still leave less to the driver's skill.

Cushioned seats are definitely out, those are just for sissys with soft backsides. Real-man cars have wooden benches.
 
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ViperGMC

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So how do you produce anything "new" while maintaining purity/tradition? The very definition implies old, handed down, long established. Wouldn't it be more akin to the production of a replica. So what some are saying is that the GenV should be a replica of a GenI or II. That seems rather boring to me. I guess if your Gen II has 150K miles and is showing its age and you want one with 10k miles than a new replica makes sense. There are plenty of Gen I/II out to there to buy however. The introduction of the GenV does not diminish any of the previous Gen one bit. I love my Gen III and will never sell it. I love the Gen V and can't wait to get mine. I can see me getting a GenII at some point and enjoy each one for what it is. I just don't see the hang up, no one is coming to get your older Gen Viper. The only way to I can see to satisfy "purists" is to remake the same car and that's not what the Viper nation is all about.
 
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05Commemorative

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I determine what is acceptable and what is not for the entire automotive enthusiasts world. I have advisors but ultimately I am the dictator.

Power steering - reluctantly accepted because it is not an electronic driver aid.
Power brakes - same as ps.
EFI - electronic fuel injection is not a driver aid and has no effect on driver skill. Accepted.
Radial tires - They are not a driver nanny. Accepted.
Disc brakes - not a driver nanny. Accepted.
Electronic ignition - not a driver nanny. Accepted.
Power windows - not a driver nanny. Accepted.
AC - not a driver nanny. Accepted.
Radio - worthless, of little or no value but not a driver nanny. Accepted if it is capable of playing AC/DC and goes to 11.

You're welcome.

I see you left out the obvious ones. And the reason you left them out is because it is obvious to anyone with with even an ounce of auto enthusiasm what a driver nanny is.

I think this is where you logic gets a bit confusing. Drive an AC Cobra on the track with bias ply tires, drum brakes that fade after two laps, manual brakes and steering, then jump in one with same power but have radials, disc, power brakes and power steering and tell me they did not help you drive that car better. (yes, they were nannies of the day, you just have come to accept them as normal now). The same will/is said for ABS.

In fact, drive an AC Cobra on a track, then jump in a Viper. The viper is so tame in comparison, but a much more enjoyable experience. Do I feel less manly because I have a Viper? No, but I respect the folks that raced those cobras in the 60's more than any driver driving a viper, so just put it all in perpective that the ******** would consider that car/technology the purist.

btw, I think the only ones I left out was the traction and launch control, but I did because you can turn them off.
 

AZTVR

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I think this is where you logic gets a bit confusing.

I see Chuck's definition as extremely clear and logical. The line you asked about has been drawn at ELECTRONIC driver aids, not mechanical advantage items. I totally agree with that line of reasoning. If one must have a line then that is a very logical and clear delineation.

That "line" would make a Viper clearly, and uniquely, a different product from a Corvette or a Ferrari. I do not think that there is a viable business model for SRT to produce a car that meets Chuck's definition; but, that is not the question posed here.

I believe that SRT has done an excellent job at updating the car so that it is still unique enough to draw in buyers that want something different from a Corvette. Plenty of the older Vipers that meet Chuck's definition still exist in an almost as-new state that those type buyers have plenty to choose from. A driving purist probably wouldn't be the type to be chasing the latest car just because of a body restyling anyway. Everybody wins with the new design package, IMHO.
 
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Voodoo Rob

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To me a "purist" would be a driver who has chosen the most simplified form of automobile available to them given their demographic and purchase ability. A 80 year old purist would laugh at a "modern" C4 Corvette and possibly pine after a pre or post war racer with wood steering wheel, hand clutch, pneumatic tires. On the other hand a 20 yr old "purist" might view a miata as a simple no nonsense driver. If your talking true "purist" and the cars that embody that thought, the drivers/owners are long dead or close to it and the cars are in collections or just memories. In reality a "Purist" is an opinion not a definite line.
 

Chuck 98 RT/10

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I think this is where you logic gets a bit confusing. Drive an AC Cobra on the track with bias ply tires, drum brakes that fade after two laps, manual brakes and steering, then jump in one with same power but have radials, disc, power brakes and power steering and tell me they did not help you drive that car better. (yes, they were nannies of the day, you just have come to accept them as normal now). The same will/is said for ABS.

In fact, drive an AC Cobra on a track, then jump in a Viper. The viper is so tame in comparison, but a much more enjoyable experience. Do I feel less manly because I have a Viper? No, but I respect the folks that raced those cobras in the 60's more than any driver driving a viper, so just put it all in perpective that the ******** would consider that car/technology the purist.

btw, I think the only ones I left out was the traction and launch control, but I did because you can turn them off.

I explicitly stated "reluctantly accepted because it is not an electronic driver aid." ABS is electronic. If you are still confused then I cannot help you.

Look, it's ok for people to drive nanny cars. It doesn't bother me. I believe in freedom and if somebody wants to drive a nanny car then there shouldn't be a law against it. I just wish there weren't any laws against non-nanny cars.
 

BigDawg

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It's obvious the transient yuppies here who belong in Porsches have a chip on their shoulder against those who understand what the Viper was all about. I love reading the polarizations of the purists. You guys are a riot.

Seriously though, the simple point is for the average person there are a PLETHORA of options. But for the person that wants a truer driving experience the options are limited to out of date cars and kit cars (Ultima GTR, Rossion, Gumpert, etc.). The AC cobra is a TERRIBLE example. If you want a great example of what a purist car is all about, look no further than the Ferrari F40 and F50. Both modern cars, both raw, with the purist in mind. None of this metrosexual crap that so many of you all want now. Read up on the Ferrari forums and you'll see what I'm talking about. Unfortunately Ferrari has jumped on the bandwagon, and is using their supercar model to showcase new technologies that will eventually trickle down to their standard exotic lineup.

It would just be nice to have one reasonably priced exotic/sports car that doesn't fit into the standard mold of the competition. The Viper has always been that car, and it's done it proudly. It didn't need a fancy interior, it didn't need great fit and finish, it didn't need nannies. It made no apologies. The reason the SRT-10 sales were lackluster is because of a design fail. We can all argue until we are blue in the face, but the fact remains the GenIII/IV did not appeal to the general public the way the Gen I/II did. It's straight lines and boxy shape contributed to that. Had Dodge produced the Gen III like the Comp Coupe, only with a revised and shorter rear end they would have hit a home run.

All in all, I like the Gen V a lot. There a few things I don't like, but in general it's a great car. I just wish Ralph would step away from the wheels. What were the most hated Gen IV wheels? No question, the razors. What wheels do the Gen V wheels resemble the most? Razors. What is the biggest complaint about the WK2 SRT8 Jeep aside from lack of center exhaust? The wheels. Who said he loved the wheels? Ralph. Sorry Ralph, you've done a great job with SRT, but seriously man, stop giving input on wheels.

Rant over! Don't get your ******* in a ***, my post is light hearted.
 

Vic

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Real man cars shouldn't have those metro-****** windshields in them. Real men have bugs in their teeth, like when you ride your Harley through a field of corn, and all the grasshoppers start flying up in the air. No ***** device to prevent those juicy bugs from splashing on your teeth. M-mmm!
 

PJ9454

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I disagree Big Dawg. My Gen 2 GTS...I had to buy one!! When the Gen 4 ACR version came out OMG I had to buy one (bought it off the showroom floor). I waited and waited and then the Gen V came out..I was glad i got my Gen 4 ACR while they were still available. Gen V=Chick car.
 

VENOMAHOLIC

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Purist sports car definition... A vehicle where form follows function. Direct mechanical connections need to be made with gas, brakes, and steering to be as purist as possible. Simplicity and reliability are to be preferred to unnecessary innovation. This philosophy usually results in a vehicle that is easy to work on.
 

viperbilliam

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So far, I thought Chuck had the best definition of pure sports car. Unfortunately we hand out driving licenses in this country and as a result have so many artificially low speed limits we can't enjoy cars like these on the street. Some of the driver aids make enduring legal road transportation easier. For example, I could do without cruise control (wouldn't want it or use it ever) if I could drive what I thought was a safe limit without the police telling me otherwise.
 

Slithr

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We can all argue until we are blue in the face, but the fact remains the GenIII/IV did not appeal to the general public the way the Gen I/II did. It's straight lines and boxy shape contributed to that.

Big, I believe Gen III/IV production and sales figures being higher than Gen I/II cars makes your comment about lack of appeal mute. When the facts don't align with your statement, it becomes an opinion not fact, and we all have one. I find it odd to use the word boxy and Viper in one post, are you sure you weren't talking about Hummers?
 
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05Commemorative

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Big, I believe Gen III/IV production and sales figures being higher than Gen I/II cars makes your comment about lack of appeal mute. When the facts don't align with your statement, it becomes an opinion not fact, and we all have one. I find it odd to use the word boxy and Viper in one post, are you sure you weren't talking about Hummers?

Using simple production/sales facts, the data says the following:
Gen 1 (92-95) = 5988 – avg of 1497 units per year
Gen 2 (96-02) = 11958 – avg of 1708 units per year
Gen 3 (03-06) = 8186 – avg 2047 units per year
Gen 4 (08-10) = 2453 - avg 818 units per year

The Gen4 was hit hard by the economy, but the reality is the Gen 3's has the most appeal from a sales perspective (those willing to spend money). If looking at total units sold, the Gen 2 holds that slot, but also had the most years of selling. Just data.
 

PDCjonny

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Another factor with the Gen 3 as well is the first three years with no coupe style.
Not everybody likes/wants a vert.
Sure the Gen 1 was a roadster too but there was nothing to compare it to.
 

black mamba1

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The problem with this entire debate is, "what exactly is the definition of a purist?"

I was in a car show with some of my Viper buddies in Charlotte a couple of years back. The largest show in N. Carolina held every year at the Speedway. There were literally over a thousand cars there in the show. One of my Viper buddies wanted to go inside the raceway to see the other cars. Now, he was in his 60's, and wanted to go straight to the AC Cobra's section and he took me on a 2 hour tour of AC Cobra's, teaching me every single thing about them. From the "pure" AC Cobra's, to the ones that were ok, and the ones that just looked the part. He told me the "real AC Cobra's were only built in S. Africa (I think) and shipped to one assembler here in N. Carolina or Virginia (I think), otherwise you just had a kit car that was impersonating an AC Cobra. And he went on and on about how much he loved his AC Cobra and how much more of a pure race car it was than the Viper. I kept looking into the cockpit of the AC Cobra and kept thinking to myself, "that thing is a death bucket". I've had my Viper up to 191 mph and over 140 mph several times....I would NEVER drive an AC Cobra over 100 mph...its just too dangerous...to me.

The difference in my opinion and my Viper buddy's opinion has a lot to do with our age difference and the difference in our demographic. Now, like someone esle said earlier, the Ferrari F-40 is fast, and was the fastest production car on the planet when it was built. And it was built to reclaim the speed title from the Porsche 959 build a few months earlier. But the F-40 is a glorified go-kart on the inside and uses a cable for a door latch on the interior. I'm sorry, thats just a little "too pure" for me. Yes it makes sense if you are gonna take the car to the track everyday...but we drive these cars on cruises almost weekly, and some of us drive our cars on thousand plus mile trips to get to VOI and other trips...doing that in a glorified go-kart is just south of insane to most people.

So, what a purists is really comes down to opinion. I think most people can agree what lines a car needs to maintain to keep its identity like Porsche does with its 911 line, Ferrari does with its 599-F12 line, and the 430-Italia line, and how Lambo maintains the Diablo, Murcielago, Aventador lines. We all have a good idea of how Vipers should look to maintain its character.

But, and I've been saying this for years. Computers are faster than humans. And there is nothing we can do about that. Our competition is computerizing take-offs, handling, turning, and braking. And just like computers can now beat the worlds best chess players, computerized cars like the GTR are going to defeat the best drivers in a pure race car like the Gen 1-2 Vipers, or the F-40, both in drag races and at the tracks. Thats where we are headed guys. So, stay pure and get your ass kicked, or evolve and stay competitive.

The choice is ours.
 
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Chuck 98 RT/10

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So, stay pure and get your ass kicked, or evolve and stay competitive.

Riding passenger in a computer car doesn't interest me. Driving the car does. And if that means getting my ass beat, then so be it. But it won't be beat by another driver's talent, which is the type of competition I enjoy.
 

black mamba1

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Me too. I cant ever imagine stepping into a GTR and just mashing on the gas and pointing the steering wheel and calling that racing or driving...but thats where we are headed guys. We are headed towards the I Robot days where the computers drive the car for you.

Its like when I bought my first Vette back in 88, the older car guys said any car with a computer in it wasnt a real car. They would rather have a carbureted 454 big block Vette than a computerized car any day. I would be shocked if there are any high end sports cars with stick shift left by 2020, and with rwd only by 2025. Thats only 13 yrs away.

We "purists" are experiencing the same dilemma in modern form with all the new nanny's on the newer cars. In less than 10 years you are gonna see purists separate themselves and only race other purists at tracks such that the driver decides the race, and not nanotechnology. Just like the AC Cobra guys, the nostalgic Ferrari guys and the Aston Martin guys usually only race each other at tracks, modern day Viper purists will also only be competitive with other purists on the race track. If GTR's are capable of this kinda performance now, where do you think Ferrari will be in 2018? What about Porsche? We already have a 911's doing 0-60 in 2.7 seconds. What kind of performance do you think Porsche and Nissan will be doing with 600 plus horsepower and more advanced technology? One can only imagine...but I promise you....

Its coming...and soon.
 

Chuck 98 RT/10

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I wouldn't be too sure of that BM1. F1 has backed away considerably from the nanny tech and it has resulted in a lot more exciting racing. That leadership will likely transfer to other venues. And dare I say this, but NASCAR has zero nanny tech, an H-pattern stick and runs two road races each year and will probably add more.
 

Lawrenzo

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This:nono:

Why even buy a stick shift car if you want the computer to modulate the throttle on acceleration.

Maybe the computer can wipe my **** when I'm finished on the throne too.:rolleyes:


Launch control​

To help maximize straight-line performance in track conditions, all SRT Viper models will include launch control as standard equipment. Operational in any ESC mode, the system is engaged by a button on the steering wheel. Whenthe vehicle is at a complete stop, the driver engages the system and then quickly applies full throttle. Launch control holds the engine at optimal launch rpm and waits for the driver to release the clutch. Launch control then uses engine throttle only to achieve controlled wheelslip​

for maximum acceleration through first gear.
 

DMan

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My opinion is more like Chuck's and others here than not like it. I guess my thing is, we're talking about politics here, not the car. Not sure why we're putting down the Gen5 for things it's required to have. Isn't this a "General Discussion" or non-viper topic about politics?? What was SRT supposed to do, build a Gen5 that wouldn't be street legal.

Don't like launch control, don't turn it on.
Don't like stabilitrack or whatever the frick they're calling it, turn it off.
It's what I do in my other perf cars. But, the viper still has it's soul, the V10 and chassis, etc etc.
I don't mean this insultingly at all as we're on the same team.
 

Chuck 98 RT/10

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My opinion is more like Chuck's and others here than not like it. I guess my thing is, we're talking about politics here, not the car. Not sure why we're putting down the Gen5 for things it's required to have. Isn't this a "General Discussion" or non-viper topic about politics?? What was SRT supposed to do, build a Gen5 that wouldn't be street legal.

Don't like launch control, don't turn it on.
Don't like stabilitrack or whatever the frick they're calling it, turn it off.
It's what I do in my other perf cars. But, the viper still has it's soul, the V10 and chassis, etc etc.
I don't mean this insultingly at all as we're on the same team.

Ok, forget about the cost and additional maintenance aggravations. How many buttons are there and how long do they have to be held to turn them off every time I drive the car? Wouldn't it have been cooler if SRT would have designed the nannies so a relay or fuse could be removed without any other affect other than making the Viper a complete driver's car again. Dodge would have.
 

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