Viper seems a little slow, Was my Z06 Faster???

[Janni]

Suggestions about what? Proper break in? Why you don't think its as fast? Timing equipment?

The new Viper definitely should be as fast as your Z06 - but you should follow the proper break in procedure to make sure your snake is as powerful as it should be and lasts for as long as it should.

Between this and the automatic car wash question, it may be time to step back and re-evaluate....

The Viper - like it or not - is "different" than the Z06. Try as I might to say its "just a car" its not. You don't see them parked at the mall - jammed into the "compact" parking place like you see tons of C5 vettes, lexuses (lexi?) BMWs and Merc's. They are special - and they really should be treated that way. Don't run it through the car wash - you'll likely KILL your shiny new wheels as the car wash tracks are too narrow and definitely not set up for the low profile WIDE tires, trash your finish, douse your interior, and generally abuse your car. Break it in right, change the oil, watch your RPMs. Then your car will reward you. It can be driven hard but you cannot hammer on it right out of the box. You have to adjust the driver FIRST, and then get the car ready.

I've seen too many 5K miles Viper beaters lately. I fear they are getting into the hands of folks that do not care about them, only want them because it beat the Vette they had or they are manly enough to "tame the beast", etc... (Sorry guys, couldn't resist.) Please be nice to your new snake.....

My $.02.

 

[SoCal Rebell]

Well said Janni, take pride in your Viper, Car wash????? What's with that???? Oh yeah, Z06's are sleds (except Mike Pavloff's). Mike and I are doing Willow Springs road course this Friday, I'm told the Z06 will beat me in this format, we'll see.

 

[Venom Lover]

Oh, boy, here we go again! As I've stated previously, G-Tech runs on my GTS and Z06 on the same day resulted in 0-60 times of: 4.1x for the Z06 and 4.2x for the GTS. At the time, my GTS had all of the mods listed below, except for the 3.55 rear end. Now with that, I was able to attain 4.1x 0-60 times for the GTS just this last weekend.

Traction and gearing make a big difference. With 400 ft-lbs available at the rear wheels on my GTS at 2000 rpms, it's going to be hard to avoid spinning the wheels. Before the 3.55 rear end, the alternative was bogging. The gears make a difference in the GTS, and I suspect the gearing of the Z06 helps it off the line.

One other data point. I see lots of posts on the Vette Forum with guys getting 1.7x-1.8x short times in the Z06 (on street tires, totally stock set-up). The best stock short time I've seen here is 1.8x, and that's pretty rare.

Bottom line is I think your observation is exactly right. Off the line, the Z06 and the Viper are close (stock vs. stock), but after 2nd gear it's all over. However, the Viper is very traction limited. With slicks, my 0-60 times dropped to 3.6 sec in the GTS, and that's before the 3.55 gear.

Ron: Driving skill will have way more to do with our track times on Friday than the car. Like it or not, a good driver in a well set-up racing Celica would hand both of us our a$$es. I won't even begin to guess who will turn better times, but I'm definitely a novice.

 

[SoCal Rebell]

G-tech/Shme-tech, learn how to drive your snake with those 3.55s, I kicked that sled of a Z06's a** on the track in a straight line. My 1.8 to your 2.01 so much said!!!!!

And hey I'm a novice also on road courses but I'l still kick the s**t out of your sled.

 

[Kid97GTS]

The biggest reason the ZO6 "feels" faster in 1st and 2nd is the 3.4x stock gear ratio compared to the Viper's 3.07. Put 3.55's in the Viper and the seat of the pants feel will change substantially. Regardless, 2nd gear in the Viper is a beast, even with 3.07's. Now with my 3.55's I can break loose from a roll in second, but I'll put my Viper from 2000 rpm in second up against any car on the road, GT2 included.

 

[Venom Lover]

SoCal, you seem a little testy today....Didn't get enough over the weekend??

(1) Learn to drive with my 3.55? My very first pass on a drag strip with my 3.55 I kicked your a$$! If I learn to drive it any better, it won't even be fun to race you any more!

You must be registered for see images

(2) The way to improve is by practice, and short of going to a drag strip, I practice on secluded streets with the G-Tech. It may not be 100% accurate, but it's consistent enough to tell you what works and what doesn't as you play with launch technique, shift points, etc. Of course a city road is a different surface from a VHT-prepped strip, but sometimes there are no alternatives!

(3) We'll see what happens Friday. I won't even venture a guess so much of it has to do with the driver. And I don't know what your experience is....

 

[Venom Lover]

Frank,

Put a 3.55 rear end in your Viper at some point, and you will have no complaints about first or second. Fourth will seem much livelier, and even fifth pulls harder. Anyway, I know you just bought your snake, but think about it at some point in the future.

 

[SoCal Rebell]

I still took you by 15/100s in the 60 ft. times, the ONLY reason you won was better genes (97' puts down 35 more hp) and a bad shift on my part. That was one race no chance at redemption, I'm sure you planned it that way. As for the road course you have more experience then me my 0 times on a course to your 1 time at Viperdays. But I'm good.

 

[jwwiii]

This acceleration question is interesting, and I want to add my observations.

I changed the gears on my 98' RT to .355's and really enjoyed the street driving a lot more. However, I still felt that the stock gears were probably quicker 0-60 if driven by an experienced dragger. Wheelspin is much greater with the .355's, and I believe (but I could be wrong) that a shift to third would probably be necessary to stay in the powerband. That third gear shift is one that more than a few of us have missed! The mis-shift would ruin the run (or worse).

I now have a new 01' RT, and it feels so much better, that I don't feel tempted to change gears. The new Viper feels like it already has .355's! It must be the cam-timing thing that they improved on the new Viper. Anyone else traded in for an 01' have the same impressions? Pre-01', I would recommend the gear change if you are experienced at dragging, and also for the better "around town" feel. Otherwise, my new 01' is just a much better driving Viper in my opinion. I also have the K&N's, tubes, and Mopar street exhaust. I do not know if I will re-install the Mopar "Race Computer". Without the other recommended mods, I don't think it did much. Any comments?

Hey, it's almost spring here!

Jim

 

[Venom Lover]

Jim,

Since you asked for comments....

Even with 3.55's you don't need to shift into 3rd to stay in the powerband for a 0-60 run. I honestly didn't check my rpms at 60 mph, but I don't think they were too near redline. I'll check next weekend for sure.

I don't know how the '01 cam would improve ability to launch the car or wind it through the gears, but I'll take your word on it. On the other hand, the new cam seems to have robbed the newer snakes of some power. Kid97GTS and I both dyno'd at over 420 rwhp bone stock. Maybe our cars aren't typical, but there sure seem to be a lot of '00-'01 cars dynoing at 400 rwhp or less.

In any case, it seems like guys are still pulling low 12's and even upper 11's with basically stock Vipers on street tires, so maybe eveything evens out on the drag strip!

Back to the original subject of this thread: this all translates to a close run 0-60 between Z06 and Viper, but significant advantage for the Viper in the 1/4.

Just my .02....

 

[Venom Lover]

345bhpLS1,
As you know, I am all in favor of sticking up for the Z06 here, and so I agree with most of what you said. One thing perplexes me, though, which is your statement that the Z06 produces as much torque at the wheels as a stock GTS. Here is a comparison of my dyno runs for my Z06 stock (TOP) and my GTS stock (BOTTOM). It looks like a pretty big difference to me, to the tune of over 100 ft-lbs!

You must be registered for see images

You must be registered for see images

 

[SoCal Rebell]

Venom Lover, at the time of that run my Viper was STOCK except for a 3:54 gear swap, I think it pretty relevant (don't be pissed because it was your sled I destroyed).

 

[Joseph Houss]

Many of you hit the nail right on the head... different gearing will "maximize" different areas of performance. The goodwrench guys set the car up, it seems, for stats that will make the car more marketable, essentially maximizing 0-60 performance, and giving the car "seat of the pants" acceleration from a standstill. It seems that most agree that after 70 mph our Snakes will offer an incredible performance advantage.

Smart marketing for the bowties? probably .. but everyone has to agree that...

1) Our Vipers still are the leaders in the 1/4 mile (stock vs stock...with an experienced driver)
2) Our Vipers still are the leaders on a road course (stock vs stock...with almost any driver! LOL)

I believe that there was an advertising campaign by Mazda back in the 70's (or maybe even 60's?) where the land speed record holder "Green Monster" was beaten by a Mazda in the quarter mile...of course that was because it took the Monster about 10 seconds just to get the rocket (jet?) engines to get that baby moving when the tree turned green!

No excuses here, our Viper's performance was adjusted for what Dodge and Viper owners wanted in the car. TRUE 1/4 mile performance and TRUE road course performance.

Congrats to GM for making a car that almost performs as well as a Viper and surely helped "up the ante" on our 2003! ... and when (and if) the bowties get close again hopefully Dodge is prepared with the next bid in the performance game!

 

[Venom Lover]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SoCal Rebell:
Venom Lover, at the time of that run my Viper was STOCK except for a 3:54 gear swap, I think it pretty relevant (don't be pissed because it was your sled I destroyed).
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, you're right. It is relevant, because you are helping me make my original point that the 3.07 gearing on a stock Viper hurts it off the line, hence the ability of the Z06 with lower gearing in 1st and 2nd, plus the 3.42 rear end to run good 0-60 times as good as a stock Viper. The fact that you run better than stock short times at the drag strip is explained by your 3.55 rear end. Oh, and let me not forget your phenomenal driving ability!

You must be registered for see images

BTW, I went back and looked up the time slip of the run we did against each other at Palmdale. You ran a 13.1 vs. my 13.4, which is not exactly what I would call "destruction", except perhaps in your fantasy world. You can go ahead and make your usual slew of excuses now!

 

[Rich Detert]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Venom Lover:
In case you don't believe G-Tech results (which I will argue are pretty accurate for 0-60 times), there are also the drag strip short times that I discussed above, with owners in stock Z06's getting 1.7x short times on street tires. How many stock Vipers can do that?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've done 1.75 sixty ft. times with Viper and it's a Gen 1 car.
The car is lightly modded (as in smooth tubes, K&N filters and glasspack mufflers) and these times were run on Michelin MXX3s @ 22psi.

Alot of it depends on the drivers ability to properly launch the car and the condition of the starting line.

You must be registered for see images

 

[ElDiablo Viper]

OK I have 2001 C5 Coupe Vette with 3K miles and was able to run with K&N and stock runflat tires (horrible tires for racing) 12.87 in 1/4 mile Now my gearing is different than Z06 (higher) and I have less power so what is up with you guys running 13's

You must be registered for see images

My friends chiped Audi S4 did 13.6.

 

[Venom Lover]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by bluesun68:
Aren't there any published times for 0-60? Seems like some magazine should have ran that test.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sure, but they're all over the place for both cars. I've seen 0-60 tests ranging from just under 4 sec to 4.3 sec for the Viper and from just under 4 sec (Popular Mechanics) to 4.6 sec for the Z06. As we all know, though, magazines will achieve whatever numbers they want to, and will often not drive cars to their potential. I've seen other Z06 owners post 4.1x 0-60 times on the Vette Forum and z06vette.com. In case you don't believe G-Tech results (which I will argue are pretty accurate for 0-60 times), there are also the drag strip short times that I discussed above, with owners in stock Z06's getting 1.7x short times on street tires. How many stock Vipers can do that?

 

[SoCal Rebell]

I have yet to have a Z06 stay with me in 1st and 2nd, when one does I will acknowledge it. Took a Z06 on the track I had the faster 60 ft, 330 ft, 1/8 mile not to mention a full second in the 1/4.

 

[Venom Lover]

Of course SoCal forgets to mention that this was modified Viper vs. stock Z06, so his data point is irrelevant to this discussion. (See his signature line.)

 

[SoCal Rebell]

**** , I gotta get to Houston.

 

[Mike Brunton]

345bhpLS1,

One thing you're missing is that the lower your gearing, the quicker you run out of gear. What does the Z06 get for speed at 6000RPM in 1st? Maybe 50? I don't know - maybe you or Darth can help me out here, but given the Z06 is running 10.15 overall gearing and the Viper is 8.something, that means that when the Z06 shifts out of first gear and into second (and loses torque overall at the rear wheels), the Viper is still in first with it's higher torque number. The same is true of second.

Gearing is sort of an artificial way to make up for power. You can gear a car very short and make it feel speedy off the line, but not only does the Viper pull a bit harder in first, it pulls quite a bit (about 25%) longer. The same goes for second. The Z06 might feel like it pulls almost as hard in 1st/2nd (I don't think it does from driving both personally), but it runs out of RPM quicker because of the shorter gearing.

Another thing to consider is the powerband. The Viper's torque curve is almost flat - literally. It makes power everywhere. You can't stay at peak power RPM - that's impossible, so the way to get a REAL comparison of these two cars is to take their average torque through the RPM band for, say, first and second gear. The Z06 might have a peak torque at the wheels that approaches that of the Viper, but I'm positive it's a lot peakier than the Vipers power band. Overlay both graphs and you see a difference in area, which is the difference in power between the two cars. Do one of these graphs for each gear in the 1/4 or from 0-60 (probably 1st and part of 2nd in both), and you see the real difference. The Viper would be pulling quite a lot harder at 2000RPM than the Z06... comparing peak numbers doesn't tell the whole story.

However this is all sort of academic. My Viper will always break traction in first gear on power alone when it gets to 3500rpm or so - and in anything less than warm weather, on hot tires, on a smooth road, it will do it in 2nd also. The Viper is sort of artificially hovering around 4.0 0-60 - put slicks on both cars and I'm sure the Viper would benefit a lot more than the Z06 (I think Venom Lover did just that). Comparing these 2 cars from 0-60 is sort of a disadvantage against the Viper. The Z06 does everthing possible to maximize 0-60 times, but overall it still isn't as quick as the snake to 60 - and from there on the gap just gets wider

You must be registered for see images

 

[Mike Brunton]

345bhpLS1,

I've driven a Z06 and Viper back to back - the Z06 seemed not to have as much "punch" as the Viper - so I guess you're right - the setup of the car is deceiving. The Z06 didn't have a problem hooking up in 2nd, whereas on the same road, my 98 GTS was spinning like crazy in 2nd. I think the Z06 is a great car - and GM definitely optimized it to run 0-60 (or 70), and it does great there. GM deserves a lot of credit for what they did with the car. Dodge also deserves a lot of credit since the Viper which has taller gearing still beats the Z06 to 60 - albeit just by a little.


Mako,

Comparing modified cars to stock cars is silly - it's silly when a Viper guy would try to compare "upgrade cost" when talking about a Ferrari or Lambo just as it is in this case. If you want a car that's cheap to upgrade, why would you get a Z06? An LS1 can be faster for the money than a Z06. A Firebird or Mustang can be made faster too. We all buy these cars because of a personal preference. I personally don't like the styling of the C5 - especially the hardtop, and if I was going to get a C5, I'd want the HUD and all the options, which are not available on the Z06. I'd say the Z06 is a harsher ride than my GTS. As for racing ergonomics - I don't know what you mean. I don't have a problem with any ergonomic factors on my Viper - only thing I'd ask for is a dead pedal. Other than that, I am not wanting at all. The seats are great, handling is superb, etc.

What are the specs on the Rippie package? The "smallest" packages you get for the Viper are about 600hp. The 500hp packages are really just chips/exhaust, and if you open the motor, you're gonna get a lot more than that. Vipers are more expensive to upgrade than Vettes - I agree, but Vettes are a lot more than Mustangs - it's all relative. I don't think it's much of a factor in the price of the car IMO.

 

[Mike Brunton]

Mako,

I'd definitely disagree with you on the modification of Vipers vs. Corvettes. I find that a very large portion of Vipers are modded, because the owners tend to be pretty well off and can afford it, and because Vipers are usually not daily drivers, so wild rides are Ok. I remember going to my first Viper Club meeting, and about 1/3 of the snakes had "engine packages". I remember going to drop my car off for the 5th owner invitational, and out of 4 snakes, mine was the only one that WASN'T a Hennessey Venom Viper

You must be registered for see images

I really don't think most Z06 owners are going to do a top end package - but we can agree to disagree. I think the percentage of modded Vipers is vastly higher than the % of modded Vettes (including Z06's). Also, Hennessey's "500" package is only headers, a cat-back and a new ECU and K&N's w/smooth tubes. Tom Welch guarantees 50hp at the wheels on his catback w/headers, and lots of Vipers dyno in the 425RWHP range... I think a LOT of Vipers are probably pushing close to 500 at the rear wheels with only headers/exhaust/K&N's/smoothies/ECU and rockers... not sure what a top end package on a Z06 would net, but when I dynoed my GTS, there was a Z06 there that put down just under 340 to the wheels - what would a top end kit net? Maybe 100 to the wheels?

Either way, it sounds like your Z is going to be a real monster when you're done - so please don't think I'm putting it down at all - a Z with an honest 100 extra to the wheels is going to be quicker than a stock Viper, I just disagree as to how many stock Vipers there are

You must be registered for see images

 

[Mike Brunton]

Gene,

Good points - the only true test is to get them on the track... however, several of the car mags have already done this. We can sit here and say that the mags are all BS (I disagree - they may not extract the best performance from cars, but they *are* consistently bad

You must be registered for see images

).

Anyway, as I was saying, the car mags have already done this, and the Z06 has been consistently slower to 60 than the GTS. We all talk about rear wheel torque, weight, gearing, tires, and all that as much as we want... but I think there are 2 things we can agree on. First is that the Z06 is a lot easier to launch than the Viper, and second is that the Z06's have been consistently slower to 60 in the rags than the GTS's. GTS is from 3.9 to 4.2 with most tests clustered at 4.1-4.2. Z06 seems to range from 4.3 to 4.6, with most clustered at 4.4 or so. Both cars certainly hit 60 in the first 2 gears (where the Z is claimed to accelerate harder), so I don't see where the discrepancy could come from, other than "that's just how it is".

It sort of seems sometimes that the Vette guys are trying to make the Z06 as fast, or faster, but it's just not - no matter how much we play the #'s, or talk about the specs, the actual tests don't lie. My dyno experience, my runs against a Z06, and my seat of the pants impressions all bear this out... but if people don't wanna believe it, then so be it.