Was the Viper Engine originally a v-10 TRUCK engine sent off to Lamborghini? ---

[alwayscode390]

I was under the impression that the Viper engine was originally a v-10 Truck engine ... sent off to Lamborghini since they were owned by Chrysler at the time.

Lamborghini did their thing and out came the Viper v-10?

The new HotRod Magazine writeup on the 2013 Viper claims this is the biggest rumor ... the Viper has its own engine ; not a modified truck engine.

I started to wonder if I fell for the rumor. I know I have read it in multiple places.

I was hoping you guys could clear this up for me, thanks ---

http://www.hotrod.com/featuredvehicles/hrdp_1304_2013_dodge_viper_the_beast_is_back/body_style.html

 

[diamond head]

I was under the impression that the Viper engine was originally a v-10 Truck engine ... sent off to Lamborghini since they were owned by Chrysler at the time.

Lamborghini did their thing and out came the Viper v-10?

The new HotRod Magazine writeup on the 2013 Viper claims this is the biggest rumor , and I started to wonder if I fell for the rumor. I know I have read it in multiple places.

I was wondering if you guys could clear this up for me, thanks ---

http://www.hotrod.com/featuredvehicles/hrdp_1304_2013_dodge_viper_the_beast_is_back/body_style.html

I believe the answer is YES..
1989-1991 Dodge Truck added to the line up was a 488 cubic inch 8.0L V10 engine steel block designed as an alternative for those who wanted superior pulling power but didn't want a diesel.

 

[speedracervr4]

Check out this video with Dick Winkles (engine guy) in it....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGDdBFbikUQ

 

[kenphjr]

From what I understood was that the V10 was indeed a truck engine made of cast iron-They didn't want that heavy of an engine for the viper-so they had lambo make some aluminum blocks for them because lambo had experience in doing aluminum blocks-I don't know if they just made a couple for Chrysler and then Chrysler made the rest -But that's the way I thought it happened

 

[Dom426h]

Not 100% sure but: I remember reading that Lambo was specifically commissioned to assist in casting our block in aluminum alloy since at the time Chrysler had limited experiance and Lambo was further along with the technology. Then i remember reading that something happened causing lambo to not finish the job so everything was sent back to Chrysler prematurely.

I think it was in the Grailkeepers section, the SRT chat, or the Viper Mag that i read this but i forget which one. Im sure it will ring a bell for someone else though...

 

[swexlin]

The 440 had gone away, and while Chrysler had the Cummins, it didn't have a big-block gasser to compete with Chevy (454) and Ford (460) at the time. The V10 was originally developed for the truck, but appeared (highly modded) in the Viper first, in 1992.

The new Ram made debuted 1994 MY, and the V10 (iron block) was first available 1995, I believe. By the way, I had a 97 2500 V10, and it was a great truck! At the time, it was the most torque (450 lb fft) available from anyone, gas or diesel.

 

[alwayscode390]

OOPS wow, Dick Winkle said "the only thing it has in common with the truck engine is the fact that its a 90 degree v , everything else has been changed"

Neat vid , thanks for posting that!!! ---

 

[swexlin]

I guess they were mistaken then ... which is fine , but that EASILY could have been left out of the story. Its like they went out of their way to mention this false claim ---

No, the Lambo influence was there (this was the late 80s). I have several Mopar reference books at home, I'll have to check tonight.

 

[01sapphirebob]

From what I remember the original idea was to base the viper motor off the truck motor and have them move down the same production line but after they started designing the motor and changing the things they needed to to make it a sports Car motor they were no where near being close to the truck motor.

 

[swexlin]

Right. The bottom line is the Chrysler and Lambo co-developed the V10 for truck use, but as Bob said, it was then adapted and highly modded for car use (the Viper) and appeared there first, 3 years before the truck.

The two engines share basic architecture and displacement only, that's about it.

 

[swexlin]

By the way, the last V10 trucks came off the assembly line in December 2002 as 2003 models. 2003 was the first year of the redesign in the 2500 and 3500 trucks, 1500s got it (the redesign) in 02.

There were VERY few of the 2003 V10s. I have only ever seen one, at Carlisle some years back. They guy knew what he had, and was hanging on to it.

 

[Grisoman]

I curse the person who decided to go with 6-lug hubs.

 

[chorps]

The Viper V-10 was envisioned to have the truck engine, but as it was iron block it was too heavy so they decided to contract Lamborghini to design/adapt what they could of it, at the time Lamborghini was involved in a F1 effort as well.

What came back (unfinished) wasn't very well suited for what Chrysler wanted. Although it was aluminum block, it was overly complicated, hard to manufacture and not very reliable. Also the design put an emphasis on top end horsepower at the expense of the bottom end torque. It was very Italian.

So I guess the truck design was scrapped and the Lambo design was scrapped and they built it in-house. So the rumours do have a kernel of truth but the reality is somewhat different.

 

[swexlin]

The Viper V-10 was envisioned to have the truck engine, but as it was iron block it was too heavy so they decided to contract Lamborghini to design/adapt what they could of it, at the time Lamborghini was involved in a F1 effort as well.

What came back (unfinished) wasn't very well suited for what Chrysler wanted. Although it was aluminum block, it was overly complicated, hard to manufacture and not very reliable. Also the design put an emphasis on top end horsepower at the expense of the bottom end torque. It was very Italian.

So I guess the truck design was scrapped and the Lambo design was scrapped and they built it in-house. So the rumours do have a kernel of truth but the reality is somewhat different.

Chorps is correct, I think!! Again, I'll have to check my reference books, but the original collaboration was in the late 80s, when both a new truck engine, and the Viper engine were needed for the coming years. Who did what to which one may be eternally lost to history!

 

[chorps]

I curse the person who decided to go with 6-lug hubs.

I think *that* was taken from the trucks.

 

[Policy Limits]

if u watch the reecnet Jay Leno's gargae review, Dick Winkles is introduced/interviewed and states adamantly that it was never a truck engine.

Personally I love the Lamborghini historyon Vipers; although most people progress oppositely, I had the bull before the snake.

 

[vancouver-gts]

The only reason some people think the Viper had a truck engine goes back to the concept car. Chrysler didn't have the V-10 engine ready to show it to the media so they grafted two extra cylinders for the existing cast iron 360 cu engine, made a hokey intake manifold for it and shown it. They probaly had only one or two cars with this engine.

 

[Makara]

I don't understand why this has been propagated by the media so much, it is rather annoying. From the viper books that I have read, it all started when Lutz was driving his Cobra reproduction to the Chrysler office and he started to feel like he wasn't exactly doing the right thing, parking a Ford powered car up front. One day, he went outside and took a flathead and pried the "powered by Ford" label off the side but figured that wasn't enough. He poked around as to what engine Chrysler made that he could put in the car but they only had the 360 which was an anchor. From that he started to think of the V-10 that was being developed for the truck but was not yet ready. The idea of an 8L V-10 in a sports car was exciting to him but he realized that the specific engine they were developing wouldn't work for a sports car, but it was the idea that stuck and ultimately lead to the creation of the viper.

I think that most people here know the whole Lamborghini story and that what they did to develop the engine was largely thrown out as chorps stated because the characteristics were not what the team wanted. The truth to it all is that Shelby was very animate about having a v-8 to save weight and didn't like the idea of a v-10. Shelby considered himself on the project more in name than anything else when everything was said and done.

No, it isn't a truck engine. No, it never was. The size and cylinder count served as an inspiration for what the viper was to become, but that is about it. Think about this, if the viper used a truck engine, how come when the viper engine was put into a truck, that was a big deal? Wouldn't that be just putting a truck engine into a truck? Silly.

Anyway, I understand that most automotive journalists don't know a great deal about the viper. It isn't like they have owned several of them from different generations like much of us have. Most likely, they haven't even driven all of the generations. It is a low production car and they have to know a lot about a lot of cars. The specifics of how many generations there have been, where the engines came from, who did what is lost and some guy who knows little about the car has to bang out an article. I think that it would be wise for the VCA to write the magazine editors when this misinformation is propagated in printed media just to start to get the truth out rather than let these silly stories build so much momentum.

 

[Viper Grenade]

I don't understand why this has been propagated by the media so much, it is rather annoying. From the viper books that I have read, it all started when Lutz was driving his Cobra reproduction to the Chrysler office and he started to feel like he wasn't exactly doing the right thing, parking a Ford powered car up front. One day, he went outside and took a flathead and pried the "powered by Ford" label off the side but figured that wasn't enough. He poked around as to what engine Chrysler made that he could put in the car but they only had the 360 which was an anchor. From that he started to think of the V-10 that was being developed for the truck but was not yet ready. The idea of an 8L V-10 in a sports car was exciting to him but he realized that the specific engine they were developing wouldn't work for a sports car, but it was the idea that stuck and ultimately lead to the creation of the viper.

I think that most people here know the whole Lamborghini story and that what they did to develop the engine was largely thrown out as chorps stated because the characteristics were not what the team wanted. The truth to it all is that Shelby was very animate about having a v-8 to save weight and didn't like the idea of a v-10. Shelby considered himself on the project more in name than anything else when everything was said and done.

No, it isn't a truck engine. No, it never was. The size and cylinder count served as an inspiration for what the viper was to become, but that is about it. Think about this, if the viper used a truck engine, how come when the viper engine was put into a truck, that was a big deal? Wouldn't that be just putting a truck engine into a truck? Silly.

Anyway, I understand that most automotive journalists don't know a great deal about the viper. It isn't like they have owned several of them from different generations like much of us have. Most likely, they haven't even driven all of the generations. It is a low production car and they have to know a lot about a lot of cars. The specifics of how many generations there have been, where the engines came from, who did what is lost and some guy who knows little about the car has to bang out an article. I think that it would be wise for the VCA to write the magazine editors when this misinformation is propagated in printed media just to start to get the truth out rather than let these silly stories build so much momentum.

Can I get an AMEN....?

 

[JoelW]

Makara

The 360 is far from an "anchor" and a stroked 360 with about 400 cubic inches can make as much power as the Gen I and II V10's without much effort and be totally reliable. The reason for not wanting to use a 360 then, I suspect, is that the 360 has a distributor in the back of the motor and is more difficult to put in a Cobra as I have looked at building a Cobra replica with a Chrysler powerplant myself and plenty have been built with small block Chevy engines. Most folks use Ford engines because that is what Cobras came with. Of course you can now get aluminum blocks and heads for Chrysler smallblocks and that makes it more attractive. Don't discount Chrysler "old style" smallblocks. They can easily make as much horsepower per cubic inch as our V10's and the new hemi can make more. I think the main reason for a V10 is that it simply makes the car more exotic and it had and has lots of cubic inches. I'm glad Lutz had a Cobra or we would probably never have had a Viper.

 

[alwayscode390]

http://editorial.autos.msn.com/most-influential-cars-of-the-90s#8

Just ran across another article that says " This snake produces venom via a 400-horsepower 8.0-liter V10 engine that was a truck design cleverly recast in aluminum for the Viper " LOL ---

 

[Makara]

Makara

The 360 is far from an "anchor" and a stroked 360 with about 400 cubic inches can make as much power as the Gen I and II V10's without much effort and be totally reliable. The reason for not wanting to use a 360 then, I suspect, is that the 360 has a distributor in the back of the motor and is more difficult to put in a Cobra as I have looked at building a Cobra replica with a Chrysler powerplant myself and plenty have been built with small block Chevy engines. Most folks use Ford engines because that is what Cobras came with. Of course you can now get aluminum blocks and heads for Chrysler smallblocks and that makes it more attractive. Don't discount Chrysler "old style" smallblocks. They can easily make as much horsepower per cubic inch as our V10's and the new hemi can make more. I think the main reason for a V10 is that it simply makes the car more exotic and it had and has lots of cubic inches. I'm glad Lutz had a Cobra or we would probably never have had a Viper.

My source is straight from an interview from Bob Lutz who said that when this was going on, the 360 was still carbed and below 200 hp.

 

[Cobraken]

The venerable Ford small block (221ci, 260, 289, 302, 351, 400) was developed by Ford's truck division and turned out pretty well for passenger car use.

The 360 Chrysler motor always seemed to use excess fuel in relation to horsepower produced. It's development coincided with the poor running 1st generation smog restricted vehicles. It was also very heavy. The Ford and Chevys enjoyed the perception they were lighter weight and more free flowing than the Chrysler small blocks of that generation (318ci and 360).

 

[1994viper]

Funny how the SRT10 trucks have a 5 bolt pattern.

 

[1994viper]

I think *that* was taken from the trucks.

Funny how the SRT10 trucks have a 5 bolt pattern

 

[Bonkers]

I have to agree with Makara, my understanding was the Iron V10
was in development and they decided to build another V10 for the
car...

Now the only difference I heard was that the V10 is a much better
design for low RPM torque but from a marketing standpoint "sports
car buyers" didn't like the sound and feel of the motor and simply
wouldn't buy it. Lambo was the only company in the V10
performance business at the time which made them a natural
partner in the 488s development.

 

[Makara]

Now the only difference I heard was that the V10 is a much better
design for low RPM torque but from a marketing standpoint "sports
car buyers" didn't like the sound and feel of the motor and simply
wouldn't buy it. Lambo was the only company in the V10
performance business at the time which made them a natural
partner in the 488s development.

It was kind of the other way around. Chrysler did send the engine off to Lamborghini because of a time crunch that they had in order to meet delivery date of the prototype. They felt that Lamborghini had more experience with aluminum high performance engines and sent them to work on the project. Five working prototypes were contracted and Lamborghini came up with a design that had no consideration for low torque, produce-ability, or reliability. Lamborghini wanted the aluminum engine to be sleeveless which triggered off alarms for bore recession in the Chrysler engineers. Team Viper took the engines back and redesigned every part, but using inspiration from some of what Lamborghini did.

There are a lot of really silly rumors getting thrown around, even by viper owners. I would suggest buying this book http://www.amazon.com/Dodge-Viper-D...TF8&qid=1362777269&sr=8-3&keywords=viper+book and giving it a read. When I bought my first viper, I bought a bunch of viper books but I think that this is by far my favorite. The creation of the car is actually really interesting. I have some non carguy friends that I had read that section of the book and they said that they saw the car in a whole new light. It really was a work of passion. Just get the book and read it, you will not regret it.

 

[plumcrazy]

wheres jonB when ya need him...lol

 

[chorps]

It was kind of the other way around. Chrysler did send the engine off to Lamborghini because of a time crunch that they had in order to meet delivery date of the prototype. They felt that Lamborghini had more experience with aluminum high performance engines and sent them to work on the project. Five working prototypes were contracted and Lamborghini came up with a design that had no consideration for low torque, produce-ability, or reliability. Lamborghini wanted the aluminum engine to be sleeveless which triggered off alarms for bore recession in the Chrysler engineers. Team Viper took the engines back and redesigned every part, but using inspiration from some of what Lamborghini did.

There are a lot of really silly rumors getting thrown around, even by viper owners. I would suggest buying this book http://www.amazon.com/Dodge-Viper-D...TF8&qid=1362777269&sr=8-3&keywords=viper+book and giving it a read. When I bought my first viper, I bought a bunch of viper books but I think that this is by far my favorite. The creation of the car is actually really interesting. I have some non carguy friends that I had read that section of the book and they said that they saw the car in a whole new light. It really was a work of passion. Just get the book and read it, you will not regret it.

That book was given to me as a gift from my friend when he worked at SRT years ago...now I own a Viper. Guess they should give that book (and Maurice's new one) to everyone because it really opens your eyes to what goes into making the Viper.

 

[Makara]

That book was given to me as a gift from my friend when he worked at SRT years ago...now I own a Viper. Guess they should give that book (and Maurice's new one) to everyone because it really opens your eyes to what goes into making the Viper.

Absolutely. I always loved the viper since I was a kid and I knew some of the back story from reading about it as the car was being developed, but that book just took the veil off. SRT should embrace the story of the viper's inception. It really is a story of passion, risk taking, and vision which makes it easier to appreciate the car for what it is. It also helps put to rest some of these silly rumors that even many viper owners seem to propagate.