Water Methanol Failures With ROE Blowers?

[Shelby3]

Recently there have been some concerns that the water methanol systems used on Roe blowers have failed under boost causing moderate to severe damage to the motor. I send Sean an email to get his comments and here it is:

Hi Jim,
The fittings are the correct fittings for the application.
However, we found that some people don't understand how to properly install a hose into a compression fitting and tighten it.
If you don't push the hose all the way in, the sleeve won't crimp down on the hose and seal.
Simple as that.
Therefore, we went to a push in instant fitting at all locations.
This took care of the improperly installed compression part, but a few people still seem to have trouble pushing the hose in, then try pulling it out to make sure it's installed all the way.
The only calls we've ever received about hoses coming loose have been due to improper installation.
As far as engine damage goes, beyond a spark plug burning up the end, I have been informed of no other damage.
The parts we use in the kit are industrial push in fittings suitable for the DOT Nylon 11 hose and pressure we use.
There is nothing to upgrade.
Feel free to post if you'd like.
I've been so busy with work and other issues that I have not been on the forums in the last 6 months.
Best regards,
Sean

Has anyone had any failures they would like to share with the board so others might avoid any potential issues? Post them up if you have first hand experience. Thanks

 

[Mccarlin]

When researching this system for the last couple years (they sold a similar system for the Supra as well) my main concern was not with the fittings but with the actuall pump. I would assume most people with the W/M kit have a tune that's a little more aggressive to say the least, not to mention people running 10 and 12lb pulleys. I've always worried that when and if the pump ever fails and you are in boost with all that advanced timing, major damage can occur.

Has this ever happened? not that i have seen publicly on forums but i'd have to imagine it has happened. This talk about the fittings is a good one, as i have yet to think about that possible fault as well.

As nice as the system and how well it works, there just is no fail safe for when things go wrong.

 

[Shelby3]

With forged pistons you don't need the W/M to use the 10lb. pulley. Also you can just use the system to avoid heat soak and protect against detonation without pushing the tune to the point it would damage the motor if the W/M failed.

 

[Mccarlin]

With forged pistons you don't need the W/M to use the 10lb. pulley. Also you can just use the system to avoid heat soak and protect against detonation without pushing the tune to the point it would damage the motor if the W/M failed.

With the higher boost 10lbs can you get away with pump gas 93 octane? I'm sure you can but would have to sacrafice some timing and power correct?

 

[Schulmann]

No issue on my side.
It has been runnig perfectly for 15000mi.
Anyhow the W/M only allows 1-3 degrees advance.
On 91 oct fuel it is only there to cool the pistons.

It is easy to hear the pre-ignition as soons as you hear it just lift the pedal.

Last friday my engin got so hot that it was pinging an entire 1/4 mile run. My FR5 plugs still looked good but after this run I stopped racing. You have to push really hard and have a very agressive ignition along with lean AFR (above 12.5) to harm the forged pistons. There is also the luck factor.

The cast pistons will only ping once ... after it is like sonic boom ...

 

[Simms]

No issues here. My timing is not pushed to the edge so I think I would be safe if something did fail.

 

[Shelby3]

With forged pistons you don't need the W/M to use the 10lb. pulley. Also you can just use the system to avoid heat soak and protect against detonation without pushing the tune to the point it would damage the motor if the W/M failed.

With the higher boost 10lbs can you get away with pump gas 93 octane? I'm sure you can but would have to sacrifice some timing and power correct?

Yes, I ran the 10lb. pulley with 93 octane for two years. It made 660 rwhp with heads and cam. Each car is different, just tune it to your desired AFR and accept what you get for power.

 

[Supercharged Vipermad]

I had one fitting come apart once while I was driving, tank emptied rather quickly!! LOL!!! As Sean said.....operator error, self admitted! I have since changed to some red tubing from Snow, with all new fittings (new fittings ONLY because I re-routed the tubing....nothing wrong with what was there). Now...once I got everything where it needed to be....I keep my fingers out of there! LOL!

 

[Joseph Dell]

I've seen the same failures. mostly user error. But do yourself a favor and buy an A/F guage. If you HAVE a failure, you can detect it FAST w/ a wide-band A/F meter. Negates the concern. or it should.

JD

 

[KepRght]

how many times do you fill the Water Methanol per tanks of gas? 1 per tank or 1 per 2 tanks? wondering how much of a pain this would be for a daily driver or just relaly long drives in general

 

[Supercharged Vipermad]

Joseph,
When I get back from Guam....I want to call you and get your help on my winter project (A/F). You OK with that?

KepRght....you fill the bottle depending how much you boost. Average pseudo-daily driving, for me that means every weekend.....I fill the bottle maybe ONCE for every 2-3 tanks of gas...maybe 4 tanks. Personally, I don't like the tank to be low and chance that it sloshes around and the pump ***** air.

 

[Joseph Dell]

Fluid content depends on the type of fluid (50/50 mix, 10% mix, etc...) COMBINED with how you are using the water/****. if you are using it to supplement fuel, then you'll burn through it more often. if you use it strictly for cooling, less.

Or you could be like Kenny who uses TWO bottles.

Speaking of bottles, i don't know why people use TWO nozzles on these things. If you look at the supercharger (while off), the air only goes in ONE place. So you could use just one jet instead of two. unless you need a higher volume...

cleaner and less chance of failure w/ one also...

JD

 

[Shelby3]

Fluid content depends on the type of fluid (50/50 mix, 10% mix, etc...) COMBINED with how you are using the water/****. if you are using it to supplement fuel, then you'll burn through it more often. if you use it strictly for cooling, less.

Or you could be like Kenny who uses TWO bottles.

Speaking of bottles, i don't know why people use TWO nozzles on these things. If you look at the supercharger (while off), the air only goes in ONE place. So you could use just one jet instead of two. unless you need a higher volume...

cleaner and less chance of failure w/ one also...

JD

It's all about symmetry Joe.

 

[Viper Wizard]

Speaking of bottles, i don't know why people use TWO nozzles on these things. If you look at the supercharger (while off), the air only goes in ONE place. So you could use just one jet instead of two. unless you need a higher volume...

cleaner and less chance of failure w/ one also...

JD

Hey Joe,
I have installed 92 of Sean's blowers so far and about 45 of them have WM and one nozzle is NOT enough volume, PLUS you are cooling BOTH tubes = MORE POWER!!

I have had 3 hoses come off because of the old fittings.

One of them dyno'd at 829hp & 968tq!

 

[Joseph Dell]

Wizard -

You rock! those are some pretty stout numbers. Must be NOS though... what was the non-NOS best #?

Oh yeah... on the single-nozzle solution, i was thinking one bigger nozzle. but i digress.

both tubes lead to a single inlet... so a single should be as effective. But i haven't installed 92 of them so i can't speak intelligently enough with empirical evidence.

Symetry with one nozzle works. especially if they both go to one hole. which they do.

but i'm just talkin' theory at this point.

nice!!!

JD

 

[Shelby3]

Symmetry and the explosive atomization that occurs when the opposing mixtures of water and methanol round the inlet tubes at the rear of the blower and merge into a pyroclastic concentration of super cooled air and octane that propels the Viper forward as if it were launched from the deck of the USS Enterprise.

 

[Mccarlin]

ADD TO FAVORITE THREAD LIST

Thanks guys

 

[Joseph Dell]

I'd love to see some empirical testing on this. In theory, it makes sense... but the water is fully atomized by the time it hits the blower... so is the cooling effect more realized earlier in the stream or later? inject once just at the BACK of one of the intake tubes, or in the front in the smooth tubes?

My theory?

The heat comes from compression of the air in the screws of the blower. cool it later and it stays cooler going through the blower.

but just a theory. any local volunteers want to test this out?

JD

 

[GR8_ASP]

Sorry, the cooling comes from the energy required to evaporate the mixture. It does not matter when, it will result in the same temperature drop overall.

 

[Viper Wizard]

738hp with out NOS, the 829hp was with NOS & Propane!

You guys read my above post! Spraying down both throttle bodies COOLS both tubes = MORE HP! Works MUCH better then spraying in at the back of the blower! It may look cleaner but the whole idea is MORE HP!

 

[Viper Wizard]

Sorry, the cooling comes from the energy required to evaporate the mixture. It does not matter when, it will result in the same temperature drop overall.

I have to disagree! You are part right but there isn't enough time to cool spraying in the back.

 

[Shelby3]

I'd love to see some empirical testing on this. In theory, it makes sense... but the water is fully atomized by the time it hits the blower... so is the cooling effect more realized earlier in the stream or later? inject once just at the BACK of one of the intake tubes, or in the front in the smooth tubes?

My theory?

The heat comes from compression of the air in the screws of the blower. cool it later and it stays cooler going through the blower.

but just a theory. any local volunteers want to test this out?

JD

Sorry Joe but I'm also injecting nitrous and raw fuel in each smooth tube in addition to the water and methanol. That and just a spritz of Hai Karate to counter the noxious odor effects of my catless exhaust array.

 

[plumcrazy]

738hp with out NOS, the 829hp was with NOS & Propane!

SHOWOFF !!!

 

[Joseph Dell]

Shelby3 - don't apologize to me. I need a local person to volunteer for the experiment anyway. and I just might have one.

I _want_ to believe the wizard. but my physics books aren't agreeing.

But I don't want to argue w/ the wizard as I'll lose.

But... since my wife says i argue about everyhitng anyway...

if the intake air charge temp meets in the middle, then the where the injection occurs (assuming the same volume of liquid) may be negligible or it may be affected by other heat under the hood.

But let's talk about 1 tube vs. both tubes. if both tubes come together in the same spot, and the net cooling effect (and by cooling effect i mean volume of W/M mixed with air) is the same, then the cooling effect should be the same, right? sure, the tubes will be warmer at the front, but if you put the mix in the back right above the hole where all the air goes down, it doesn't make sense (to me) that you would lose anything. or would you?

JD

 

[1TONY1]

But let's talk about 1 tube vs. both tubes. if both tubes come together in the same spot, and the net cooling effect (and by cooling effect i mean volume of W/M mixed with air) is the same, then the cooling effect should be the same, right? sure, the tubes will be warmer at the front, but if you put the mix in the back right above the hole where all the air goes down, it doesn't make sense (to me) that you would lose anything. or would you?

JD

I use my own design W/M system (started using W/M before Roe did W/M) and the nozzles that I decided to use were not large enough to use only one. I also wonder about the atomization from using one large nozzle without a lot higher pump pressure .
Two nozzles is redundant in case trash gets in the system....maybe one will still flow (maybe not)
Cooling the inlet tubes has to help some....how much, I don't know but it's real "cool" to see them frosted over

 

[FE 065]

Has anyone ever measured the temperatures inside the front and rear of a s/c tube to see how much if any metal blower tube hot temperatures if any are being picked up by the air as it travels that distance to the blower?

I'm sure it's radiating some heat into the airstream, but the air's moving so fast...

Seems like I remember even the stock intake manifold being relatively cool when the engine is running.

Pointing to the apparently obvious conclusion that the airstream is drawing off heat from the metal intake manifolding.

You just never know whether the running/not running intake temp difference is from heat radiating UP from the engine once it's shut off and no longer cooling itself with circulating radiator water, or from the airstream pulling heat out of the metal tubes...

 

[ViperRichRT10]

Has anyone had any failures they would like to share with the board so others might avoid any potential issues? Post them up if you have first hand experience. Thanks

Yes, I had a problem. My hose connector cam off and my water **** was spraying on the engine rather than in it. This caused detonation and boom! My cream puff is now no longer a cream puff. Grenaded the cast pistons and the pieces went up into my blower and ruined it too! JD and I spent all winter puttin it back together. Never complained about it to Sean since I could have somehow been at fault with the connector.

 

[ViperRichRT10]

If you inject in the tubes after the throttle bodies, wouldn't the vacume have a siphon effect and draw the water **** out of the tank? You would need some sort of solenoid to stop this. Just a thought...