When best intentions BLOW UP an engine...

[EllowViper]

Couple of observations.
1). The vacuum/boost line from the manifold to the VEC must not be obstructed/kinked/etc. Need to make sure the VEC sees the actual MAP reading. Sean really hits this point hard when discussion tubing sizing and "T" ing into the line.
2). Make sure the VEC is using the internal MAP, not the stock MAP.
3) Calibration of your W/B. Agree with 1Tony1 that the W/B readings may not be accurate. I use my readings right off the gauge and compare with the VEC log to make sure its the same. I have messed this up before and had the VEC data log reading differently that the Innovate gauge. For whatever reason, I use the 7.35 AFR at 0v and 22.4 AFR at 5v per the Innovate default settings. Sean told me to use 8.0 AFR at 0v and 18 AFR at 5v for VEC logging but when I do that, the gauge reading and the logs are off. Trust but verify your WB readings!!
4) My 5 lb ROE boosts right to 5 PSI and climbs up to 8+ at redline. My boost gauge and data logs are spot on. I have "real time" data in my face as I drive and do not rely on pulling logs to see what is happening "after the fact." My AFR at idle is 14.5-15.5. WOT I'm at 12.5. My set-up has always been detonation tolerant even using the stock plugs. I had been using the 2-step colder NGK that Sean provided but it ran like crap; nonetheless I have just incorporated W/M just because I could. I am not running much (if any) timing retard and in some areas advancing the timing above stock. Something was askew in your initial set-up since your engine was so suseptable to detonation across the spectrum.

 

[BOTTLEFED]

yeah, if you're close to PBJ, id have him tune it for sure. not many can tune like him....

yes, I've heard good things about PBJ, but the logistics of getting my car across the country for tuning is unfathomable

 

[BOTTLEFED]

Is it possible that there was some oil leaking from the SC that caused detonation? I agree that it can't be the length of the spark plugs and that detonation caused the broken plugs. I know that the Roe's should not be spun on 10lb pulley's very long before it needs a rebuild.

How are your PCV lines run? Do you have a catch can and not rerouted back into the intake?

The oil coming out of the S/C is a good question, I hadn't thought of that. I did notice that when I originally got the unit, I had to spray the base manifold with carb cleaner and wipe out all the grease and residue lining the inside. The bottom of the unit was the same way. The screws(impellers) inside the unit were that way as well, but I couldn't clean them. I remember mentioning this to Sean before I installed it but he didn't seem too concerned about it and said residue was normal.
I thought maybe the previous owner just had a lot of blowby, and no catchcan, and that is where the residue came from.

How can I tell if the oil is coming from the S/C? The oil level has not dropped a bit.


PCV syst was stock,
one of the next projects I had planned was a catchcan.
I had noticed that I was getting more and more blowby the longer I ran the S/C - another sign the motor was on its way out.
But its hard to tell which came first, the extra oil in the intake causing detonation, or the detonation causing excessive oil in the intake

 

[BOTTLEFED]

Lower loads, idle and cruise you could lean it till it dies and not hurt anything.

BOTTLEFED,
What wideband do you have and how are you monitoring it ? Do we know that it is correct or that if your reading it from the Vec logs it is correct ?

I'm also curious about that pulley not coming off. After the bolt is removed mine always falls off in my hand.

The boost rising slowly....I'll have to think on that one. Is that per the gauge or the logs ? I see no way this s/c could let boost slowly rise. Possible bypass issues ? One thing for sure, if it is rising slowly it would be less prone to detonate initially where the Roe IS prone to detonate.

On the engine deal, if you could find a reasonably priced long block then you could be back on the road fairly quick and possibly for the same money if there is damage to the cylinder walls. If no damage to the cylinder walls then it's no big deal to throw the engine back together with used parts. A replacement engine would leave the current parts for a nice motor build and ported heads in the future.

Thanks,
its nice to know that running it lean at closed-loop operation is OK; it helps with gas mileage
although I think I'll up the fuel at idle as it is hard to keep it running sometimes.

I'm running 2 Innovate LC-1s with a single XD-16 gauge. They are brand new. I can switch between the 2 sensors from inside the car on the gauge. Both read within a few tenths, with bank2 running consistently leaner than bank1.
I have the bank1 sensor running a signal to the VEC for logging. As I stated before I also installed new O2 sensors in the front locations. The WBO2 sensors are mounted at the turnout (damn yankee style).
The gauge seems to coincide with the VEC readings. I'm not sure how else to know if they are reading correctly.

The pulley would not come off because I cannot get the bolt out. I think it was sealed in with loctite. I tried an impact gun and Sean's method of putting 2bolts in the pulley and a breaker bar on the bolt, but it does not budge. Sean said to stop if I started to strip the head of the bolt, so I gave up. My only option left is heat, but I'm not sure if there is an oil seal/oring behind the pulley that would melt if I heated it up enough to get it loose.

Right now I only have the VEC MAP to go off of for boost readings. I meticulously monitor my logs and where boost is coming on and how it rises. I could probably tell you off the top of my head what psi I will be at for any rpm

Thanks for your advice on this Tony. I'm really leaning toward a long block. However, I don't really have th space to store an extra motor and rebuild it. And with grad school coming up, I will be moving, so I don't want to drag this stuff around with me

 

[BOTTLEFED]

Couple of observations.
1). The vacuum/boost line from the manifold to the VEC must not be obstructed/kinked/etc. Need to make sure the VEC sees the actual MAP reading. Sean really hits this point hard when discussion tubing sizing and "T" ing into the line.
2). Make sure the VEC is using the internal MAP, not the stock MAP.
3) Calibration of your W/B. Agree with 1Tony1 that the W/B readings may not be accurate. I use my readings right off the gauge and compare with the VEC log to make sure its the same. I have messed this up before and had the VEC data log reading differently that the Innovate gauge. For whatever reason, I use the 7.35 AFR at 0v and 22.4 AFR at 5v per the Innovate default settings. Sean told me to use 8.0 AFR at 0v and 18 AFR at 5v for VEC logging but when I do that, the gauge reading and the logs are off. Trust but verify your WB readings!!
4) My 5 lb ROE boosts right to 5 PSI and climbs up to 8+ at redline. My boost gauge and data logs are spot on. I have "real time" data in my face as I drive and do not rely on pulling logs to see what is happening "after the fact." My AFR at idle is 14.5-15.5. WOT I'm at 12.5. My set-up has always been detonation tolerant even using the stock plugs. I had been using the 2-step colder NGK that Sean provided but it ran like crap; nonetheless I have just incorporated W/M just because I could. I am not running much (if any) timing retard and in some areas advancing the timing above stock. Something was askew in your initial set-up since your engine was so suseptable to detonation across the spectrum.

I agree totally ellowviper

to answer your questions:
1. there were no problems with the vac. line that I could see. I would think the boost readings would have been more irregular if it was kinked/leaking.
2. internal MAP is set
3. the gauge and the logs seem to be close. its hard to watch the gauge when you're doing a 3rd gear pull
I do have the VEC settings to what Sean told me - 10:1=0V and 18:1=5V. I just tried to follow Sean's instruction as closely as possible.
5. I suspected something was wrong from the start as well, but my logs and Sean kept telling me everything was fine; there was no solid proof of any problems

 

[GTSnake]

PCV syst was stock,
one of the next projects I had planned was a catchcan.
I had noticed that I was getting more and more blowby the longer I ran the S/C - another sign the motor was on its way out.
But its hard to tell which came first, the extra oil in the intake causing detonation, or the detonation causing excessive oil in the intake

That's a big no no! I had detonation at first too with the stock PCV system. When I took the filter apart it was dripping with oil. I was sucking oil into the intake and detonating. You must not let the PCV vent vapors get sucked back into the intake!

 

[BOTTLEFED]

Before the final end, there was never enough oil to worry about. It was like a newly oiled K&N - oily, but not saturated.

But on the last trip home there was oil running out the drain holes in the filter box

 

[EllowViper]

Not that I have had any blowby at all...but that's another reason I like Water/****. It keeps everything in the intake/runner squeaky clean.

 

[Jack B]

#3,5,7 all on the driver's side. With the dual Innovates and the guage, I would think one could monitor a lean condition pretty rapidly. How many miles since the initial install? You indicate that you had all the injectors cleaned and balanced. I wonder if something dropped into those injectors during the install. I have cut many an injector "O" ring trying to push the ROE fuel rail on those pesky injectors. Also, I assume the individual fuel trims on those 3 aren't seriously different that the other 7 cylinders. Boy, what a shame. If you have a PAYPAL account, maybe we members can pump a few $$$ your way to defray the cost...nothing too substantial, but $10-20 dontated by several dozen members would sure add up! I know your observations and insights that will be forthcoming are actually worth a few bones to me.

This may already have been done, but, the XD gauge also has a programmable alarm function. I run rich (on the bottle) and I have the alarm set at 12.0 when over 80% throttle for 1 second. Another avenue is to add the Innovate DL32 or LM3, they both have a built in MAP function, for recording boost.

I have run the FR5-1's on my car and I believe (??) they are very close to the oem heat range, they do have a heavier strap and less extension of the tip.

 

[Jack B]

Yes my logs were good - I wish I could post them but it doesn't work
I was tuning at 60-70deg. for 12.1 a/f; after some tuning I was never more than 1 a/f point away from that.

I would only get knock when the temp would change - up or down, didn't matter. Or when I went to a different elevation. When I would hear knock, I would let off. However, I do have a very loud exhaust and it was very hard to tell when it was knocking at higher RPMs.

As far as a bad tank of gas, I'm ruling it out for now since I was getting knock before from multiple tanks of gas and many different gas stations.

Another possibility is timing. I'm not sure what the timing should be on these cars at boost. I'm trusting the tune that Sean wrote for my car. Unfortunately, there was already a mistake in the tune he first gave me. It was extremely rich (7-8 a/f) and he had to send me another one.

Going back to running too lean, I was uncomfortable with how lean it ran at lower loads. At cruise it would range between upper 14s to lower 17s. And at idle it was in the 17-18 range. And most concerning was that at startup, the car would run so lean that is had trouble running and the WB gauge could not even read high enough to register how lean it was.
I could never figure out why it ran so lean off load (closed loop, <WOT). The first thing I did before starting to tune was to set the LTFTs to 0 on both banks. And I assumed that since the VEC is a piggyback syst., that it did not affect idle or other non-WOT operation once the injector correction was set.

I think I'll go back to dyno-tuning when I get it back together

Also, I'll be sending my VEC2 in to get the AIT mod added so I don't have to tune for every air temp or elevation.

For some back up data, I run two LC1's and the a/f pretty much stays at 14.7 at idle and cruise. It actually oscillates a little above and below that value.

I have a new set of pistons, if you are interested send me a PM.

 

[Russ M]

I have said it before and here it goes again.

A good tune is worth more than any built motor or indestructible part. Next time do yourself a favor and go to someone that knows how to tune your components and you will not have this problem again.

And yes I have read that you are not new to tuning, and have done it several times in the past. But your current situation is telling me that you are no where near as good at it as you believe. Personally I have built many race cars, helped tune dozens if not more, and probably know more about what needs to happen more than 99% of the so called tuners out there. But at the end of the day when my car needs to be tuned I go to a pro, cause saving a few buck to do it yourself will get you blown motors.

This is not a rant or meant to be insulting towards you, just some good advice which I hope you take.

 

[DAMN YANKEE]

With Russ M's last comment, I'm going to step back in here...sorry for the delay, been out at the Lowell Observatory all week and truly out of pocket.

Whereas Bottlefed has clearly laid out the ins and outs of his ordeal...and we thank him for that, I do not come away with the same conclusion as Russ. Many of us with Roe Blowers tune our own cars and do it well. What plagued Bottlefed is a complex mix of used equipment with some inherent issues, mounted on a car that had history that predated him and a series of decisions that he (very honestly told within this thread) made for better of for worse (i.e. 10lbs with no w/m).

What I do not come away with in this thread is a "throw up your hands and give it to a tuner" conclusion....especially as I (and many others here) have legion stories of tuners doing some things that have lead to simular results. To the community I say, learn to tune and to tune well, I started this thread to that end. Bottlefed's story is, in the end, a rich series of lessons and I have no doubt that he will come out of this with a strong engine and a stronger ability in regard to tuning. And no....at no point, do some us tune to "save a few bucks", we tune to get closer to perfection.

I would add the following recommendations:

1. Be suspicious of used Roe Superchargers. Not rejecting of them...just a healthy dose of suspicion. At a minimum, have them sent in to Sean and have them completely rebuilt and supplied with new gaskets, plugs and minor parts. Its cheap insurance.

2. Big boost? Cool it off, after 8lbs few of us would go without.

3. Tune A/F first and when coming to the conclusion that the timing curves need to be augmented, work on-site with a tuner that knows his/her stuff and then you will have a leg up to go it on your own. I believe it will come to pass that Bottlefud's issues had to do with a less than satisfactory used blower...and his timing work. That is my GUESS.

4. Want to live large....have great performing engine.....a beautiful engine bay....do you won tuning....and then build a monster? Start out at 5lbs, no w/m and mast er the art. Need more, take it up to 8....need more? Folks, there is a very real tipping point in the horsepower game (as with any such sport) and when you do cross it (I'm thinking 750hp) know that the days of stock like stability are going to be replaced by HUGE horsepower and HUGE responsibilities to keep everything together.

 

[GTSnake]

Just FYI. Sean doesn't rebuild blowers he refers you to PSE superchargers.

 

[BOTTLEFED]

Dan,
I agree completely. I really don't think it was my tuning, and I doubt a tuner would have really found any anything I did not.
I truly believe my tune was well within safe parameters for the conditions I was tuning in. However, something was amiss and my tuning was not able to keep up with all the changing problems.

I really regret going ahead with the install when I could not remove the 10# pulley. It was then that I wished I had spent the extra $$ on a new Roe S/C kit.
Yet, I never hit full boost on the 10# pulley, so it is hard to believe that too much boost was the issue.
As GTSnake just mentioned, Sean does NOT rebuild the units. In fact he practically refused to take my S/C in for a rebuild since there is not much that can go wrong with them.

On that note, I would like to get some opinions on the condition of my unit
Here is a pic of the base manifold, as you can see there is a lot of oil from the blowby, but notice the black residue that marks up the aluminum (the pieces are just silicone that dropped in after I removed the unit). When I received the S/C, this piece was coated with a layer of sticky, oily, black grease. I cleaned it off with some carb cleaner and elbow-grease.

You must be registered for see images attach

Here is a pic of the screws/impellers. They were much dirtier and stickier when I got the unit. The oil is from the blowby, but the black is not. Did the oil clean off the inside of the unit?

You must be registered for see images attach

The only other problem with the S/C is that the inlet on the back was dented in shipping and I had to remove it to have it repaired. I tried to get it sealed back on but it wasn't easy to retorque the lower bolts.

Opinions

 

[1TONY1]

I pm'd these links to Bottlefed. They talk about the tendency of oil to get into the Viper intakes...Roe or not. It's just easy/scary to see on the shiny S/C intake vs the stock intake. His pictures have nothing to do with the s/c itself....I have been there before on my own car


2nd post is mine, I KNEW there had to be a s/c seal leaking...I was WRONG and proved it to myself:
Oil In Intake - Where's It Coming From? - Viper Alley - Dodge Viper Forum

When I first pulled my stock intake to do the Roe s/c. I like post #5 from BTR Tom Welch:
http://forums.viperclub.org/performance-modifications/522523-oil-intake-runners-why.html

A used Roe s/c vs a new one.....shouldn't be much difference, maybe more work gathering up parts. Both, (as can any power adder) can do damage if not installed/tuned properly.

 

[Russ M]

Dan,
I agree completely. I really don't think it was my tuning, and I doubt a tuner would have really found any anything I did not.
Opinions

You can lead a horse to water etc.. etc.. etc...

Good luck on your next melt down.

 

[Alternative]

yes, I've heard good things about PBJ, but the logistics of getting my car across the country for tuning is unfathomable

You can simply buy him a plane ticket.

 

[BOTTLEFED]

I didn't know any of the tuners did that anymore??
I remember Tony doing it, but I thought he was the only one

that may actually be a possibility

can anyone confirm this?

 

[Alternative]

If you only need tuning, you can ask Joe/PBJ to fly in. At this point though, you're probably better off sending your car out to make sure everything gets done right. Not only your motor needs work, you're also not sure about the s/c.

 

[ViperBing]

Seeing as this is detonation related, has anyone been able to get a knock detector working on a Gen II?

 

[Russ M]

Seeing as this is detonation related, has anyone been able to get a knock detector working on a Gen II?

Its easy

All you need is an AEM unit along with some knock sensors, and some tuning.

Problem is that Bottlefed has already spent money on a Vec 2 and air/fuel monitors, which probably would have cost him the same as buying the right unit in the first place.

He needs to fix the broken parts, get a real air/fuel analyzer hooked up something that uses more than just factory o2 sensors, get the car to a dyno, and have a good tuner go over everything.

Bottlefed if you want to spend the money and get an AEM unit and get rid of all the band aids you have for fuel/ignition management I can assure you there are many tuners out there that can get the job done for you.

 

[twinturbo3150]

Dave Harris here in Utah does great work on viper motors and any other motor. I have seen one of his engine builds on a 96 viper gts and it looked and sounded top notch. The VCA recommemded him to me and I am doing the same you might want to give him a call maybe he can help. If you need any help I am willing to come up there this weekend and help pull the motor and drive it to Dave for you, or just come up there and help in any way.

 

[BOTTLEFED]

You can lead a horse to water etc.. etc.. etc...

Good luck on your next melt down.

Problem is that Bottlefed has already spent money on a Vec 2 and air/fuel monitors, which probably would have cost him the same as buying the right unit in the first place.

He needs to fix the broken parts, get a real air/fuel analyzer hooked up something that uses more than just factory o2 sensors, get the car to a dyno, and have a good tuner go over everything.

Bottlefed if you want to spend the money and get an AEM unit and get rid of all the band aids you have for fuel/ignition management I can assure you there are many tuners out there that can get the job done for you.

Wow Russ, you're sounding less intelligent with each post
I recommend you take a break before you lose all respect on this forum

 

[BOTTLEFED]

Dave Harris here in Utah does great work on viper motors and any other motor. I have seen one of his engine builds on a 96 viper gts and it looked and sounded top notch. The VCA recommemded him to me and I am doing the same you might want to give him a call maybe he can help. If you need any help I am willing to come up there this weekend and help pull the motor and drive it to Dave for you, or just come up there and help in any way.

I do know about Harris. He did a lot of work on this car for the previous owner.

I'll let you know. I may be pulling the motor this weekend. I've got another motor lined up but it won't arrive for a week or more.
Thanks for the offer

 

[twinturbo3150]

I do know about Harris. He did a lot of work on this car for the previous owner.

I'll let you know. I may be pulling the motor this weekend. I've got another motor lined up but it won't arrive for a week or more.
Thanks for the offer

did you buy that car here in Utah? If so it's probably the same car I looked at, is the interior blue and white and the intake plenum was either polished or chromed I cant remember

 

[Viper ACR Lover 02]

Not that Bottlefed needs defense and I know for all intents and purposes I am only a noob, but I think at this point, I think commenting on Bottlefed's past decisions just adds insult to injury. I know personally I wouldn't want that to happen to any one of you and I wouldn't say "you should have done this" or "you should have done that." What's done is done. I would hope that he would be able to move forward with a rebuild or a replacement and that he is able to enjoy his car soon. Good luck man.

 

[DAMN YANKEE]

Smiling, he set his beer down, wiped the grease off his hands and said to no one in particular “Russ..dude what did you just say? Stock O2s?? VEC not a real tuner??? AEM for this application???”

To come to the conclusion that the only course of action for blowing up a motor is to from that point forward only use a third party to tune your engine is, in my opinion, absurd. It makes about as much sense as coming to the conclusion that one must hire a lawn service after hearing that a homeowner in Poughkeepsie cut off their own toe mowing their lawn. Whereas it may not be for everyone, it surely provides a productive result for many on this very board. I, for one, can’t imagine building a racing motor (or any motor..I’m talking to you Russ) and leave it to any third party to complete the task of tuning it. In fact, I would go as far to state plainly that I believe it would be a stretch to plan out and build a great motor without fully comprehending the requirements of bringing that same engine into tune. I’ll go farther, I would find it equally hard to believe that one building a great motor would come to find that the tuning of it is the “hard part” requiring one to throw their hands in the air and reach for a phone. That is not to say that tuning is for everyone, it isn’t. Just like reloading isn’t for everyone…or that cooking isn’t for everyone...of rock climbing isn’t for everyone….etc. Even the most ardent tuners I know also get their rigs tuned by another good tuner routinely (though they are the types that find a tuner that allows them to hand around while they do it). The thought that nobody should tune their own Viper is unsupportable….especially here. There are plenty of guys and gals that do it successfully and they know their Vipers are in tune and why….and they also know when their Vipers are not in tune.

Is it hard to tune your Viper? Lets start with a stock Viper. The answer is a great big “hell no”. You will need a laptop and about $250 in software. In fact, the damn car nearly tunes itself. With a VEC you can get a better tune.

Is it hard to tune a 5 or 6.5 lbs Supercharged Viper with a Vec? With wideband, the answer is “hell no” again, if you want to. You will be buying the exact same tuning software. You will absolutely love the 5 and 6.5, the whine of the supercharger is so fine that it will quickly become one of your favorite Viper experiences. Would most informed people use an AEM for the low poundage rigs? Im betting 1 out of 20.

Is it hard to tune a 8+lbs Supercharged Viper with water **** and all the trimmings? With wideband, the answer is “no” but you will have to learn how and you can learn…on your own, let alone with the help of this board. Tiping Point set aside, the fact is that much of the big rigs I see are problematic from all the mismatched, poorly thought through, poorly mounted parts. Vec here? Use an AEM? Many use VEC, some use AEM. But I’ll wager that the AEM guys are building them and tuning them themselves.

 

[1TONY1]

Its easy

All you need is an AEM unit along with some knock sensors, and some tuning.

Problem is that Bottlefed has already spent money on a Vec 2 and air/fuel monitors, which probably would have cost him the same as buying the right unit in the first place.

He needs to fix the broken parts, get a real air/fuel analyzer hooked up something that uses more than just factory o2 sensors, get the car to a dyno, and have a good tuner go over everything.

Bottlefed if you want to spend the money and get an AEM unit and get rid of all the band aids you have for fuel/ignition management I can assure you there are many tuners out there that can get the job done for you.

The Vec is far from a "bandaid" and I would recommend it over the AEM in all but the really high powered cars. I have had my AEM 2.5 years and it has been on the car about three months of that.....the Vec2 the rest of the time.

 

[Russ M]

Like I said good luck on the next melt down.

 

[BOTTLEFED]

thank you Russ
'nuff said