WHO'S INTERESTED IN A LE MANS V10 FOR THE STREET?

[Torquemonster]

WHO\'S INTERESTED IN A LE MANS V10 FOR THE STREET?

I took the liberty to make some enquiries with the people who built the V10 engines that ran so successfully at LeMans.

I am confident that for those with the money - they offer you a Viper V10 with the best money can buy.... no offense to any tuners out there doing a fantastic job... but this is endurance race proven and backed by technology and experience well beyond any private tuners budget.

How would you like a Viper that peaks at 7300rpm and makes 765hp and runs flat out for 24 hours without a hitch?! Don't try that at home - these are special engines and you won't do that elsewhere.... I'm pretty sure.

ON top of this for those who just want a top shelf exhaust setup customised for YOUR engine and car combo - they'll run your combo thru their computer and design your very own top shelf header and merge collector setup, with reverse collector to tailpipe arrangement to preserve power after collector. The headers can be stepped and lenghtened according to your engine application needs - there is no "one size fits all"! Their merge collectors are pieces of art (provided to order from Burns) and worth 25hp over normal collectors.

I am working with them to consider adding an Anti-reversion option (A/R Header setup) that will work with their stepped header and merge collector system. By using A/R cones the large LeMans unlimited cams can be used to make the top end power, while the reversion gases during valve overlap are caught by the cones and not reverted back into the port as in all other big cammed engines.

If anyone does not know what I'm talking about re A/R cones - just let me know and I'll explain them. Most engine tuners write them off these days as an old trick that is no longer needed.... this is not quite true... but I digress

The result of A/R cones is a huge increase in bottom end vacuum and torque without the loss of top end power. This trick is not used on race engines because off cam rpm performance is irrelevant. They are not used on most street engines because most customers want a race setup - right or wrong.

A well tuned EFI setup can tame a big cam to some extent and for most that is enough.... but I'm saying that the A/R setup will make a difference to taming a big cam beyond what tuning the MOTEC and unequal length stepped header setup will achieve. The more torque & vacuum at low rpm the better right?

.... anyways - that's in discussion

I am waiting for some more info and will keep you guys informed when that arrives - in meantime - here's the guts re the engines and a contact and website to check... serious buyer enquiries would be appreciated as these guys are flat out building top shelf race engines for factory efforts... here's the email from Devin - the other from Vincent I'll put on another thread

Hi Barry-

Sorry it has taken so long to get back to you. Things have been hectic
here.

The GTS-R engines in the current configuration are running about 600 HP
@ 5200 RPM and 650 ft/lbs of torque @ 4500 RPM. This is due to an inlet
restrictor of 33.1 mm.

The engine was run in '97 at Daytona in GT-1 configuration with a larger
restrictor. This package was good for 730 HP @ 7200 RPM and about 640
ft/lbs of torque @ 5000 RPM.

The engine has been raced unrestricted as well. This produced 765 HP @
7300 RPM and 660 ft/lbs of torque at 5000 RPM.

All of these configurations were race for 24 hours. We have also built
a "street" package that is about 600 HP @ 5700 RPM and 600 ft/lbs of torque
@ 4000 RPM.

I hope this answers your questions. Please feel free to contact us for
any engine needs or further questions. Thank you and speak to you soon.

Best regards -
Devin Rickey

_____________________________

Caldwell Development Inc.
1271 Activity Drive, Vista Ca.
92083 - USA
ph: 001.760.599.8020
fax:001.760.599.8022
[email protected]
www.caldwelldevelopmentinc.com

 

[Vic]

Re: WHO\'S INTERESTED IN A LE MANS V10 FOR THE STREET?

Ball park prices? Please?

 

[Bad_Byte]

Re: WHO\'S INTERESTED IN A LE MANS V10 FOR THE STREET?

Vic, why not just drive down and talk with ol' Devin. I'm betting he would talk your ear off. Its just a short drive down to Vista, Ca. Shoot, I bet they have one of those new fangled inventions, I think they are called a telephone or something......

We're very lucky to be living in So. Cal. We're cool too. haha

 

[Torquemonster]

Re: WHO\'S INTERESTED IN A LE MANS V10 FOR THE STREET?

You guys are lucky to live so close.... I've asked for some guidelines re pricing and am waiting to hear.

Don't expect it to be less than $55k for a base engine.

Joe117 made a good point too - the hp figures will be on race gas - whatever they use at LeMans. Pump gas will be different... losses can be minimised by using a high tech water injection system - which is what I would do - but the conservative old schools won't be adventurous enough to go that route so you'd see a bigger drop off with lower compression etc - what's important however is the extended rpm range of the engine and the strength of the engine - you will never get your normally tuned V10 to live at 7500rpm.

They could even build it for supercharging - imagine 7000rpm in a blown Viper! It could still run a tight quench custom piston with valve relief dishes to lower compression without ruining the quench. It's the foundation you want - once you have that anything is possible.

I can see it now - a Caldwell V10 - then for those that must be blown - off to one of the blower tuners for some boost - maybe back to Caldwells to super-tune it. That'd be a very big boys toy! Not sure I'd need boost with 7500rpm to play with.... but then you never know

 

[Vic]

Re: WHO\'S INTERESTED IN A LE MANS V10 FOR THE STREET?

I'm glad I didn't call! I'd hate to take someones time up with an inquiry, just to have to then say that I don't have anywhere near that much money to put into an engine.

Beautiful numbers, though! And what reliability!

 

[joe117]

Re: WHO\'S INTERESTED IN A LE MANS V10 FOR THE STREET?

"$55k for a base engine"
That kind of power and reliability for that kind of price is nothing new. I'd like to have one but it sound's like the same sort of technology that one finds in a NASCAR stocker.

 

[Torquemonster]

Re: WHO\'S INTERESTED IN A LE MANS V10 FOR THE STREET?

Got a reply back from Devin at Caldwells. If cost is a worry a LeMans engine option was never a consideration - that went without saying. This is for the Viper owner who can afford to have the best racing V10 in their street/club car... not many other Viper owners can boast a useable rpm range well over 7000rpm.

The octane requirement could easily be met by adding 2 bottles of NOS Race booster to each tank. If you want to go high tech - a twin ERL Aquamist water injection system (around $3000 installed) would make pump gas a cinch without ANY detuning. Otherwise, detuning for 92 octane will drop power to around 720hp.... here's the reply

Hi Barry-

The octane requirements are not as high as you might imagine. That HP
figure was on unleaded race fuel at about 100 octane. I imagine we could
run 720 HP on 92 octane gas.

The price is probably the more difficult part. The price for the GTS-R
engine is $84,000.00 USD. This includes a race quality engine side loom and
Motec M8 (or M800 these days). Exhaust, clutch and flywheel are not
included in this price. You would also need an inside Motec harness which
would probably be an additional $2-3000 USD. The engine has dry sump oiling
as well, so there would still be the issue of supplying the oil tank, cooler
and plumbing. You would no longer be able to have your air conditioning
either.

I'm afraid that there are quite a few concessions to be made for the
HP...

 

[joe117]

Re: WHO\'S INTERESTED IN A LE MANS V10 FOR THE STREET?

I'm not in a position to buy one of these engines but if you don't mind me wasting your time with a few questions, I'll ask a few.
What is "a race quality engine side loom and
Motec M8"?
What are the components in the engine, rods, pistons, cam, head work? In other words, what has been done to make it live at a higher rpm than the stock engine?
What has been done to almost double the horsepower?
Can we see a dyno plot?

 

[Torquemonster]

Re: WHO\'S INTERESTED IN A LE MANS V10 FOR THE STREET?

Hi Joe

I can answer a couple of your questions the rest we'd have to go to Devin. Feel free to email him (his email is above) as although you are not seriously looking at buying - the fact someone other than me from the forum writes him as interested and wanting more information will be encouraging to him and he may be happy to oblige with more info - he's been helpful so far!

Side loom and MOTEC8: The side loom is the thingie that enables the engine computer to be wired into the motor and enables it to control the fuel/air ratios, rpm's, ignition timing etc etc. It's the plug if you like on the motor side - and it would be hard wired to the engines electrical system. The MOTEC8 is the computer itself which will plug into the side loom thingie.

The MOTEC8 does the job of your factory computer but is infinitely adjustable and is generally recognised world wide as the best engine management system for a custom application available in the world. It is very expensive - even the loom costs $2-3000 as you saw.... but it comes back to the golden rule. I've seen a well set up MOTEC engine make 100hp more than the same engine with another custom ECU or custom chipped factory ECU.... so they do work for those

1) who can afford them, and
2) for those good enough to super tune them

Not all tuners are equal. There will be 2-3 out of 100 tuners who will stand head and shoulders above the rest. Ask the dyno sellers and they will tell you which of their customers is a legend.

re the engine internals: We did not get into this - but feel free to ask Devin. What I would say is this - I'd be surprised if the crank was even close to stock. Their engines will rpm to 8000rpm! Think about that - 8000rpm in your Viper!

The rods are likely titanium, maybe aluminum/titanium alloy. The oiling system is dry sump. The power output is not huge in fact. The LETHAL 750 package puts out not a lot less power at 6000rpm. The Caldwell V10 could make considerably more power than its endurance output of 765hp!!! The difference between the street based engine making power at 6000rpm and the Caldwell engine is the useable rpm range!!! That is a phenomenal difference in useability in racing.

Putting it simply - even at the same power - the Caldwell engine that can rpm to 8000 alongside the 6000rpm engine - providing both cars were geared appropriately for their rpm range - there would be absolutely no contest. Having those extra 2000rpm is huge in racing - whether drag or road circuit - ask any professional racer.... the ability to run a lot steeper gear multiplies the torque considerably - which more than compensates for any difference in engine torque.... you have one engine with a race rpm range of 3000-6000rpm vs one with 3500-8000rpm...

which would be quicker given the later engine should run rear gears well into the 4's vs the ideal ratio for the lower rpm engine being in the 3's?

Assume 1:1 at gearbox for simplicity and say the 6000rpm engine makes 700ft lbs of torque while the 8000rpm motor makes 660ft lbs. The 6000rpm motor likes 3.7:1 rear gears, the 8000 motor likes 4.6:1 rear gears... let's see - the low rpm motor puts down 2590ft lbs to wheels at 1:1, while the high rpm engine puts down 3036ft lbs!! Plus - it has a serious power band of 4500rpm verses 3000rpm.

You could run the same gears in the low rpm engine - but it would redline too quickly in each gear, be a pain in the *** and run out of gear too quickly - The faster the track, the bigger the difference between cars.... Silverstate Classic - there'd be no contest... the low rpm engine couldn't make up its mind between reving its guts out in 5th or luggin in 6th, the high rpm engine would be pulling like a schoolboy in 6th going a lot faster and loving it....

that's why you'd spend $100k on a race engine.

No flame against the low rpm engine - the Lethal 750 is a legend from what I hear as a street engine - but we're talking serious racing reliability here and there are people with the money who will pay to have a giant killing reliable world class beating (3 years running) engine in their club car that they drive and race. There is no better V10 - where would you go to top the Caldwell engine for a Viper?

No-one has yet tested anything as powerful for 24 hours and won several world titles except with those engines.... not one of the street based boosted super tuned engines would have been in the hunt for very long around LeMans - nor would any of the tuners be brave enough to claim they would... no reflection on them - their engines don't have to endure that - 24 hours is a long time to ring the crap out of an 8 litre long crank engine! This is a seriously well developed piece of gear - I think the money is worth it... only wish I could afford it

 

[joe117]

Re: WHO\'S INTERESTED IN A LE MANS V10 FOR THE STREET?

Thanks for the info. I'm not going to bother Devin with any questions about this engine. I wish you knew exactly what components went into an engine that they were selling for all that money and exactly what it was that would make this race engine suitable for the street.
How do they get the heads to flow at 8k rpm?
A wire loom that costs $3k must be very special.
I would think that a guy who has made these engines for LeMans, would have a web page or something, that would tell all the details.
He must have run one on a dyno.

 

[cgmaster]

Re: WHO\'S INTERESTED IN A LE MANS V10 FOR THE STREET?

I agree that these engines are great for racing. They are not the same engine that comes in a viper however. These are built using the mopar racing parts. The only thing simmilar is that they are both v10 engines. Some of the parts for this engine are avail from Mopar. The rest of the parts are availible from performance vendors. As a matter of fact this company should be able to build you anything from an endurance engine to a drag race engine with more power than a regular block and heads could handle. These engines could also be built in a street configuration. The downfall is that you will have to give up A/C and power steering. Also the ignition coils are at the front of the engine and the fuel sytem has to be modified heavily. The intake sytem is also different than on a stock car. This intake system uses individual throttle bodies and different filters. These engines came in the production GTS-r cars that they built. I also know where there is a GTS-r block, heads and intake for sale. You may be able to save some money on parts if you get this and send it off to have it built. I think cost for these parts alone was about $40,000.

 

[Paolo Castellano]

Re: WHO\'S INTERESTED IN A LE MANS V10 FOR THE STREET?

Barry, the only thing I would worry about(besides the price) would be the longevity factor. Sure, I am sure the engine can go the whole 24 hour race; but then it is rebuilt. All those exotic parts are made for one thing; Racing. I think the average daily driver or weekend racer would not use the power and would not like to foot the bill for the more frequent rebuilding intervals as compared to stock. That is why I am going the supercharged route. I know a NA motor will be better for road racing, but that costs too much and really destroys the car.

 

[Torquemonster]

Re: WHO\'S INTERESTED IN A LE MANS V10 FOR THE STREET?

John - thanks for that background info - I was wondering what hardware was used and whether the block and heads were modified stock items - now we know. Individual throttle bodies etc - great throttle response!

Paolo - Nothing against a boosted engine at all - they are a different animal altogether and I'm a huge fan of boost!

re reliability - this kind of an engine would not be a daily driver in the sense the blown Vipers typically are - I'm sure they could be driven like that but it wouldn't be what they're built for. They are a weekend warrior engine and would be perfect for the road racer who likes to drive their car on the open road, and would also be great on long trips - not so much short commutes to work where they don't even get warm, and where the plugs would not last.

Maintenance would be regular re valve lash etc - but reliability should be fine - afterall 24 hours at LeMans is the equivalent of many thousands of miles of road use.

At wide open throttle - their reliability would be better than the stock based build ups despite higher rpms - simply because they've been built and race proven to handle that for a long sustained time. Boosted Vipers only have to handle WOT for a short time in bursts, they never have to handle it for sustained use. Even the Silverstate 90 is only 90 miles - half an hour - not 24 hours!

Reliability with a street tuned LeMans engine would not be an issue within the boundaries discussed - i.e. More servicing yes, but short life - no - longer than other 765hp V10's I'd expect. Valve springs would get replaced sooner - but I count that as servicing not a lonegevity issue - the bottom end should not require seeing for thousands of road miles.

 

[joe117]

Re: WHO\'S INTERESTED IN A LE MANS V10 FOR THE STREET?

But you will have to limit the compression to something that can cope with pump gas, 92 in California.
The cam that the Le Mans race engines use will probably not be suitable for street exhaust systems and it will probably give poor performance at the low to medium rpm required for street driving. You can't use that Le Mans cam.
I believe this will reduce the horsepower to the point where the high cost, $84,000, couldn't be justified.
I think that a high powered street engine could be built by maxing out the displacement, using a moderate cam, and doing moderate head/intake work. This, relatively low rpm approach to high output would reduce the need for expensive, high durability, lower end components.
If one is not going to run a 24 hour race, what is the point in having components designed to run a 24 hour race?

Why would anyone be interested in an $84,000 Le Mans V10 for street use?

 

[Marv S]

Re: WHO\'S INTERESTED IN A LE MANS V10 FOR THE STREET?

Here's what it looks like.

Glen Furtado of CDI brought this to Deer Park picnic a couple of summers ago.

and here's a couple of straws on AZ Muzzy's GTS-R (he won his class in the GrandAm Race beating the Saleen S-7 and C5-R at PIR 2 years ago with that car co-driving with Erik Messley.)

 

[Anthony - 98 GTS]

Re: WHO\'S INTERESTED IN A LE MANS V10 FOR THE STREET?

Gotta love the Carbon Fiber valve covers.

 

[Torquemonster]

Re: WHO\'S INTERESTED IN A LE MANS V10 FOR THE STREET?

Joe - the normal tuner V10 vs a street LeMans type V10 are different animals. The normal tuner engines are perfect for daily drivers and making awesome power and torque at low rpms.

The street LeMans concept is for guys who like to have a high winding engine that turns 7000rpm with ease and is happy to do it anytime, in any gear. It's why people like Lambo and Ferrari V12's. No one would buy them if they topped out at 5500rpm.

One concept is not better than the other - just different tastes. Some like the tractor like pull of a torque monster, others like the race like feel and sound of a high buzzing big motor. That's why someone would spend the money - plus the extended rpm range offers massive advantages on the tracks - esp. road race. Gearing would be lowered considerably - like 4.1 in the rear, with a lower 5th and 6th gears as well to use the rpms and multiply torque.

Such a car would run avgas, booster or water injection - neither are inconvenient for that type of car.

as for compression, cam etc. A cam is such a minor part of the cost it's of little consequence whether the stock one was used or not. I can assure you that 765hp out of a streetable cam is very achievable using a MOTEC EFI setup. It comes down to your definition of streetable. To me - well in excess of 800hp would be very streetable - to others - they may find anything over 650hp is too unrefined on a stock stroke.

As for compression - wrong focus - think cylinder pressure - that is all that matters. You could run 14:1 on pump gas with the right combo - it's all about cylinder pressure. The compression is only a guide, and there are many trick ways to reduce octane requirements for high cylinder pressures. Bottom line is - there may be several refinements required to make it work - but its very do-able, and that was the point of the thread - just to make people aware this can be done - the V10 can be built to rpm to 7000+ safely and still be streetable... at a cost.

 

[ViperJoe]

Re: WHO\'S INTERESTED IN A LE MANS V10 FOR THE STREET?

That's prceless! The picture of an $80k motor "thrown" in the back of a pickum-up, no different than a pinto mill "throwed up" in the back of one LOL!!!

 

[FE 065]

Re: WHO\'S INTERESTED IN A LE MANS V10 FOR THE STREET?

Sounds like you're talking about spending alot more money to end up with less hp,and less driveability (sp). I see no reason 'why' to do it. Heffner and the others can give you more for less. Even a Roe s/c with headers, rockers, maybe adding port work would be better overall. If RPM was KING at the strip as you say, then our less than 6000 rpm loving Vipers would be getting stomped regardless of mods.But they're not. A 10sec or faster Viper is still hauling. I don't see the value of the spending all that extra money for the extra 2000 rpm in and of itself. Even if you had the hp budget of Jay Leno, it just doesn't make sense to put the race engine with all its' high maintenance in a car. Race gas, water injection.... Unless it was for bragging rights at the Country Club Sunday mornings.

 

[joe117]

Re: WHO\'S INTERESTED IN A LE MANS V10 FOR THE STREET?

Here's what's wrong with the concept,
I know that 7000rpm is great to have. But why would one need the LeMans 24 hr engine in order to get it?
$84,000 is quite a bit of money and I don't know why anyone would pay for long race reliability for a street engine or club racer.

When you say, "Such a car would run avgas, booster or water injection - neither are inconvenient for that type of car." I don't agree, this is inconvenient and not commonly done on the street.

I don't know why you mentioned the cost of the cam, I don't care about the cost of the cam. I'm just saying that Motec EFI setup or not, a full race engine is going to have a cam that gets lots of power in an rpm band that is way above where you need it on the street. So you can't run the LeMans cam. The LeMans cam gives the engine some of its power.

Compression or cylinder pressure, if you are talking about static compression based on volume, then they are not the same. If you are talking about performance, they are the same. If you have 14:1 static and you have some trick that keeps the engine from actually compressing the charge to 1/14 its volume, then you don't have 14:1 do you?
The point is, you need to reduce compression or cylinder pressure for street gas.

What's streetable? I don't think streetable is based on horsepower. I think it's based on what rpm the horsepower comes in and at what rpm there isn't much.
It's how hot the engine get's in traffic. It's how loud the car has to be, not how loud you want it, how loud it must be and still retain it's power.
Will the engine idle at a reasonable rpm? Will it run on street gas? will I be able to get through any required inspections?
These are the things that make an engine streetable. Of course, almost any engine can be made to run on the street but that's not what I'm talking about.
Anyone who has been around race cars knows that many things are done to a race car and its engine to make it win on the track. Many of these things are simply not compatable with street driving.

Tell me, could I stick an EFI version of a NASCAR stocker 355ci V8 into my Vette and drive to the grocery? I'd be getting about 700+hp and I could run 8000rpm for 500 miles if I wanted. No problem, right?

I think your suggestion that the Le Mans V10 could be operated on the street is not based on a real definition of streetable. Many compromises would have to be made and the cost/value just wouldn't add up for anyone.

 

[Torquemonster]

Re: WHO\'S INTERESTED IN A LE MANS V10 FOR THE STREET?

My advice is if you don't like it - then don't do it.

It would not pass any emissions test.... it's comparable to Pro Street cars except much more reliable. It would make a great circuit car that could be driven home, and its different. It would sound different, feel different, and be unique. There are one or two out there that can see value in that and could do it with their play money.

A different cam would not have to make less power - in fact making more power would be easy - the LeMans engine was not built for max power - it had to be conservative and reliable and fuel efficient at WOT....

I like to float ideas to get people thinking outside the square - I've done that for some... sorry you didn't get it Joe. Your responses are as though I've tried to argue this concept is comparable to the other Tuner cars - when I've made it clear it isn't.

Octane Booster is no big deal for this type of car - if it is inconvenient to you - you are not in the market for that type of car.

An EFI NASCAR 355 streetable? Less so than a 500 cubic inch V10 on 1000 less rpm - but could be tuned to be quite driveable - if that rocks your boat. In the old days people called it hot rodding. It wouldn't run power brakes or air conditioning - it'd be raw, racaus, and no ladies car, it'd be savage but manageable, and when it came on song it would dance.... some people still like that. On song you'd be changing gears like a man demented - some like that too.

Yes - this concept has nothing to do with what you mean by streetable - that was obvious from the start. Could you take it grocery shopping? Why not? I would not commute in it! The clutch would drive me crazy in rush hour and in tight carpark buildings and it would wear the engine needlessly.

The concept is unique, there is no "general" market for it. It's a toy not transport - that's its appeal - that and a 7000rpm V10 with sequential Hollinger box and 4.1:1 rears - would be a wild ride. I'm amazed I had to clear that up.

No takers?

Great!! - after my boosted Viper I'll look at it myself - and be first.

 

[joe117]

Re: WHO\'S INTERESTED IN A LE MANS V10 FOR THE STREET?

Look torquie, I know all about hot rods. I know about race cars and race car engines.

You say you "like to think outside the squares". Well I agree with you, you are thinking outside the square on this. Did you get it? I said that you are "outside the square". In other words, you are outside the normal range of agreement on the feasibility and worth of a race engine in a street car.

You are the one coming up with the pie in the sky nonsense about spending $100k on a race engine for a street/track car.
The fact that I don't think it makes any sense doesn't mean that I don't get it. I do get it. For $100k you would get an extra 1500 rpm and that's that.

And we still don't know how much power this makes at 2k rpm. Where's the dyno plot? I'll bet you haven't seen one. Yet, here you are telling everyone that this will work.

Put a 4:1 rear in it and what do you get for your money? Even a mildly hopped up Viper already has more power than it can put to the ground.

So any car that you put this engine in will need to be a real race car or you won't be able to use the power that the engine brings. If it's a real race car you are not going to go race and "drive it home".

You keep talking up the idea that some rich guy "who can do this with their play money" will spring for this. Perhaps you will be able to link up some rich guy with these engine builders.

Again, all I see coming from this engine is an extra 1500 rpm and the ability to run 24hr flat out. If you don't need the bullet proof durability then that durability is no advantage.

It's a stupid waste of money and it might not even be possible to drive it on the street.

Run rich guys, run...

 

[Gerald]

Re: WHO\'S INTERESTED IN A LE MANS V10 FOR THE STREET?

LOL!!!!!!!! He's exposed another con man! Go Joe, GO!!! bwhahahaha

 

[joe117]

Re: WHO\'S INTERESTED IN A LE MANS V10 FOR THE STREET?

Well Gerald, Do you think that this would be a good project to sink over $100k into? A race engine in a Viper?
You would already have many k$ in the car itself and it would need more in order to make a racer out of it.
So what would you get for your money Gerald? Would it be any faster than your car?
Are you wishing that your car could go 24hr at race speed or are you satisfied that it will run long enough for what you want it to do?

You shouldn't give me a hard time for disagreeing with torquie about this. He said he was "thinking outside the box". I was just pointing out that this move to the outside of the box would be an expensive experiment that probably wouldn't get much for all that money.

The reason people don't have race engines in their street cars is because race engines have been optimized for racing. There are tradeoffs that have been made that will make street use a problem.

When torquie says someone should/could do this, I don't think he expects everyone to just say yes, yes, do it. I'm sure he want's people to talk about it.

I gave him an opinion and we are throwing it back and forth. All you are doing is giving me a flame for not just buying his ideas off the shelf.

I asked you a couple of questions above, you have a very fast car that you have put some money into, what do you think about his ideas?

 

[Torquemonster]

Re: WHO\'S INTERESTED IN A LE MANS V10 FOR THE STREET?

Gerald flame?

NO Joe117 flames. He thinks he reasons - but what he actually does is poor cold water and attacks anything Torque says because he thinks Torque is a dork and wants so bad to trap him he hurts. He also has to get the last word in and hijack any thread I get any decent responses to that he can undermine without making himself look stupid. But it does entertain a lot of people.

I don't think anyone SHOULD do the LeMans street combo - I threw the idea out because it COULD be done.

I'm expressing a qualified opinion based upon what I know can be done with an engine. My last post made it clear what it would be like.... as for being unuseable - BS - it'd be a lot more driveable than many cars on the road already - try driving a few hot ricers with triple plate trick clutches and fly weight flywheels, and bone jarring suspension and no bottom end - people actually commute in those things. The concept I'm talking about would make less power under 4000rpm than stock but it'd still be smooth enough and more than enough to bark away in a big hurry - and with the steep gears - it'd hardly be a stone off cam.

Italian V12's have gone from idle to 7500rpm for years on carburettors, and while OHC make the rpms easier, it's all in the combo and the tuning. On top of that there are tricks of the trade I'm way past sharing with you here. Your frame of reference has nothing to do with mine - and I've had my combo's run 6 seconds at well over 200mph - which is faster than your 450hp will go, so while I'm no guru and never claimed to be - you are in my territory, I'm not in yours.

Tell me Joe - do you think I have a vested interest in having someone build this idea? Relax man - it's ok - Torquie is not looking to make any money - I do that off the board.

My argument is that it can be done and done well - much better than you think.... in fact MUCH better than you think - and better in fact than what I've indicated - I've simply been conservative in case someone picked the idea up and made some wrong compromises.

Your comments show me you really have a limited idea of what can be done on a big engine. That's ok - but don't expect me to blow my own trumpet so I can get the credibility to prove to you I know what I'm talking about.... you already have as much power as you can use - I'm happy for you. I do not agree that those limitations apply to everyone else.

You have the need to prove yourself, I don't - and that p**'s you off no end does'nt it - because I refuse to back up to the degree you want me to. You'll never see all the cards in my deck - not in your lifetime. That's reserved for those that I select. As for the $100k - you have poor mans thinking, some spend more on a watch. Give up on me Joe or at least reason in a friendly way instead of rubbishing what you don't understand.

 

[Gerald]

Re: WHO\'S INTERESTED IN A LE MANS V10 FOR THE STREET?

bwhahahahahah

 

[joe117]

Re: WHO\'S INTERESTED IN A LE MANS V10 FOR THE STREET?

So here's torquie again, as usual. He has all kinds of secrets that prove he is right, but we cant see the proof,

"You'll never see all the cards in my deck - not in your lifetime. That's reserved for those that I select."

"there are tricks of the trade I'm way past sharing with you here."

"it can be done", "better in fact than what I've indicated"

So here we go again, The man who said he had the plans for a flying saucer in his hands, but the CIA tricked him out of it, has lots of bad things to say about me because I'm too much of a fool to see that he's right.
He says he's "outside the box" and then expects to be treated like he's mainstream.

He says his suggested car would be streetable and when questioned it turns out that the only thing he doesn't think is streetable is a AA fuel dragster.
If everything is streetable then your race car would be too.

Tricks of the trade to make 7000+ rpm? torquie, I had a 61 Vette with a 283ci 315hp factory stock, pushrod, iron V8. It would turn 7300rpm way back then. Believe me torquie, I already know the "secrets". I do understand.

You think that I need to prove myself? You, the guy who comes up with every wild, pie in the sky, nut case idea about any topic? ME?
torquie, I'm the one who's main stream, not you.
You are the one who seems to need to always be "outside the box"
And then you tell me,
"As for the $100k - you have poor mans thinking, some spend more on a watch."

And please torquie, don't lecture me on what $100k means. you have no idea. how I feel about money.
I can tell you this, if someone spent $100k on this suggestion of yours, instead of $20k for a good SC, and he got nothing but 1500rpm and no A/C to show for it, he would be unhappy.


"and I've had my combo's run 6 seconds at well over 200mph"

How about giving us some detail here, what do you mean by this claim to fame?

 

[Gerald]

Re: WHO\'S INTERESTED IN A LE MANS V10 FOR THE STREET?

 

[WESTCOAST JASON]

Re: WHO\'S INTERESTED IN A LE MANS V10 FOR THE STREET?

I was thinking about this whole 'LeMans' motor issue and wondered about the reliability factor with our motors anyhow. Now while I do understand it would be REALLY cool to spin higher RPM's I don't see the problem with our motors in the first place.

Reliability? I am making 700RWHP on a completley stock internals motor and when you compare that (per liter) to say a stock Toyota Twin Turbo it is almost the same. I flog my car daily (it is my only car) and have not broken anything (significant) yet. Tons of miles every week are added and I truly believe that as long as it is maintained religiously and fed quality fluids that I will be fine. This of course is based on me driving it, I happen to really be 'in-tune' with ever sound my motor makes. Maybe someone not mechanically inclined would blow my car up on the first WOT fwy run. Then again, maybe the LeMans motor could be destroyed by abuse also. Nevertheless, even if I had the money I don't think I would be a candidate for such a high end motor. (sure would like the intake manifold and valve covers though)

.02

 

[Torquemonster]

Re: WHO\'S INTERESTED IN A LE MANS V10 FOR THE STREET?

I totally respect that Jason - and who can argue with you?

What you have done is similar to what i plan to do first... get some boost - and see no more than 6000rpm - that is the way to get good power and durability value for money.

The LeMans type engine has nothing to do with value for money - it is just taking the race engine concept on the street. I know I could make a street Viper a lot faster around a track circuit with that type of engine and steep gears than I could with low rpms and taller stockish gears. It would also make less torque but more top end hp - useful for traction. Bottom end would still be "more than adequate".

Why not have it both ways if you can afford it? If not - you have the best choice value wise already - BOOST! Well, there is NOS...

Your TT Viper would whip a LeMans race car from a roll on at low rpms - but your car would not fare so well around a public road circuit let alone around a track... it all depends on what rocks your boat.

It's just an idea that I hoped would stir some positive input - not start a war. There is nothing top secret about anything - I'm always interested in learning from or sharing with those actually interested - and have done so on this forum in different threads at different times.

re this concept I know several engine builders that would build such an engine in a heart beat. As for the price - we are talking marine/endurance race quality - it's the top shelf. Add boost and alcohol and there's no way you could harness that power potential except in a drag car.

Now - I know that there are some hot Vipers out there that are making double intended output which might last for years without needing more than 5800rpm. Higher rpms add a lot more stress than making hp at low rpms. So what is the point of 7k+?

There is no point except for someone who wants it... that is the point!

a high winding V10 built to almost aircraft quality and spinning to over 7k might only appeal to me - so maybe I'm strange.... grin ...yet I wouldn't be surprised to hear that there is one or two similar engines floating around off this forum.

I've been in enough small blocks (even Chevy's) that would turn 7000rpm sweet as a nut - and they were perfectly happy for regular street driving - on a CARB!

EFI opens up a new world. Restricted to 7300rpm, an EFI 500 cube V10 with SRT10 heads etc could make a sweet 750-800hp and be agile enough to go anywhere. It might not pass emissions, therefore may not be legal in several states - hardly worries me - I live in NZ and here it would be fine as in many other places. But there is no comparison with a high winding small block...

those who've worked with successful big engines that rpm hard know what I mean... they just sound and feel different to anything else - imagine the sound and feel from 6000 to 7300rpm!

To most it would simply be a waste of money.... but then for some - even a standard Viper is a waste.... horses for courses

BTW: For $27k, you can buy a complete 572 EFI Hemi from Ray Barton that will turn 850hp and rpm hard and last for years, so what is so hard to conceive of a V10 achieving a bit less for more money? Matter of fact that 572 wouldn't be a bad swap.... now, there's an idea for revisiting later..

anyways Jason - peace and enjoy that ride!!!