Why a twin turbo over a paxton for SRT10
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John Myrick
Enthusiast
Different people may have different objectives with their cars, but here's a few issues to think about:
Turbo car will typically be much quieter than supercharged car.
Turbo boost level is much easier to adjust to take advantage of high octane fuel or reduce to handle low octane fuel.
Turbo will typically make greater torque at lower engine speeds than centrifugal supercharger.
There are probably other advantages to turbochargers vs centrifugal superchargers, but these were the first few that I thought of.
$25,000 to $30,000 should be sufficient to budget for a twin turbo package.
Turbo car will typically be much quieter than supercharged car.
Turbo boost level is much easier to adjust to take advantage of high octane fuel or reduce to handle low octane fuel.
Turbo will typically make greater torque at lower engine speeds than centrifugal supercharger.
There are probably other advantages to turbochargers vs centrifugal superchargers, but these were the first few that I thought of.
$25,000 to $30,000 should be sufficient to budget for a twin turbo package.
John Myrick
Enthusiast
Says the guy who wanted the RSI TT kit...
Lee00blacksilverGTS
Enthusiast
Why not just call Jason Heffner and talk it over. There are very few people that know more about the answer to the question you asked.
www.heffnersperformance.com
www.heffnersperformance.com
DSR207
Enthusiast
Turbo car will typically be much quieter than supercharged car.
False. Todays superchargers are almost silent.
Turbo boost level is much easier to adjust to take advantage of high octane fuel or reduce to handle low octane fuel.
False. With VEC2, it takes less than one minute
Turbo will typically make greater torque at lower engine speeds than centrifugal supercharger.
False. No turbo lag with superchargers
$25,000 to $30,000 should be sufficient to budget for a twin turbo package.
True, superchargers cost one third that amount.
If you are staying below 1000rwhp superchargers are the logical answer.
False. Todays superchargers are almost silent.
Turbo boost level is much easier to adjust to take advantage of high octane fuel or reduce to handle low octane fuel.
False. With VEC2, it takes less than one minute
Turbo will typically make greater torque at lower engine speeds than centrifugal supercharger.
False. No turbo lag with superchargers
$25,000 to $30,000 should be sufficient to budget for a twin turbo package.
True, superchargers cost one third that amount.
If you are staying below 1000rwhp superchargers are the logical answer.
DSR207
Enthusiast
NOMERCY, is heffiner changing the cast pistons or doing any other mods to the engine and did they say how many rwhp you are going to end up with ? 
Dave T (BADVENM)
Enthusiast
NOMERCY, when are you expecting your Heffner car back? I'd love to see it when you do!!
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No Mercy,
You will need the traction control and some really sticky tires, and a Qauife, and a stronger clutch, and a blue printed trans and larger, stronger CV / half shafts, and etc, etc, etc...... but it should be fun when you get the bugs out.
You will need the traction control and some really sticky tires, and a Qauife, and a stronger clutch, and a blue printed trans and larger, stronger CV / half shafts, and etc, etc, etc...... but it should be fun when you get the bugs out.
Viper X, what type of upgraded clutch do you have on your car at the moment? I will be sending my car to velocity motorsports for the SC800 package to make 800 crank horsepower. I will be purchasing a quaife soon, however, im not sure about clutch brands and their availability.
thanks
oh, one more thing, what kind of wheels and tires are you running with your setup?
edit.."N/M i see you have an RPS clutch, I still would like to know what wheels and tires you are running
Supercharger sound alone is exciting.
Drive through a parking lot with the sc and crowds come running to see a bad *** car.
Lift the hood for the IN your face experience. sc
knocks 'em dead every time.
Predictable sc power. Priceless!!!!!!!!!!
Drive through a parking lot with the sc and crowds come running to see a bad *** car.
Lift the hood for the IN your face experience. sc
knocks 'em dead every time.
Predictable sc power. Priceless!!!!!!!!!!
DSR207
Enthusiast
Re: Why a twin turbo over a paxton for SRT10
Shelby3, Do some research.
Who says you MUST keep VEC2 under the hood ?
" LOOK AT ANY DYNO SHEET BETWEEN A TURBO AND A CENTRIFUGAL BLOWER AND THE POWER UNDER THE CURVE TIPS CLEARLY IN FAVOR OF THE TURBO."
When was the last time you looked, with S/C you have a smother and quicker boost.
If I wanted more power I would go with a turbo no doubt, the question was : which is better for 700 to 800 applications, clearly the S/C wins, And you save about $20.000 as a bonus.
Shelby3, Do some research.
Who says you MUST keep VEC2 under the hood ?
" LOOK AT ANY DYNO SHEET BETWEEN A TURBO AND A CENTRIFUGAL BLOWER AND THE POWER UNDER THE CURVE TIPS CLEARLY IN FAVOR OF THE TURBO."
When was the last time you looked, with S/C you have a smother and quicker boost.
If I wanted more power I would go with a turbo no doubt, the question was : which is better for 700 to 800 applications, clearly the S/C wins, And you save about $20.000 as a bonus.
A VEC II inside the car can be done, but would make no sense at all and still would not be easier to change than adjusting the boost on a turbo. The only area the SC wins on is price which I agreed to. A turbo with the same peak power as your SC would prevail in a drag race. The turbo makes more power at lower RPM's. If you think turbo's on Vipers today have a lag, you haven't driven one.
DSR207
Enthusiast
Dyno sheets from Heffiner web page. Shows a slight advantage to TT at lower rpms( you're right ) but also shows the lag I'm talking about.
Keep im mind, even with this setup, S/C is less then half the price of the twin turbo.....
) but also shows the lag I'm talking about.
You must be registered for see images
Keep im mind, even with this setup, S/C is less then half the price of the twin turbo.....
Dave, Things are running a bit behind. I am told the car will be done in about two more weeks. Fingers crossed.
ViperX, All of the items on your list are part of the package. Sticky tires?? What's that, Hehehehe .... I will be running some 20's on the back ...
ViperX, All of the items on your list are part of the package. Sticky tires?? What's that, Hehehehe .... I will be running some 20's on the back ...
Casey
Enthusiast
Drive a TT car after you drive a SC car and you will realize the difference immediately.
With a turbo the power comes on much more consistent and smoother, as well as quicker.
NO maint. with the Turbo. With the SC, the belt needs tightening routinely.
Engine runs cooler, as it's not working as hard.
More TQ from the TT.
TT is quieter. ALOT! I thought I would miss the whistle of the blower, but I don't.
There IS NO lag with the TT! Boost controller is very cool, and just a foot away.
You just have to drive a TT! It's that easy!
With a turbo the power comes on much more consistent and smoother, as well as quicker.
NO maint. with the Turbo. With the SC, the belt needs tightening routinely.
Engine runs cooler, as it's not working as hard.
More TQ from the TT.
TT is quieter. ALOT! I thought I would miss the whistle of the blower, but I don't.
There IS NO lag with the TT! Boost controller is very cool, and just a foot away.
You just have to drive a TT! It's that easy!
John Myrick
Enthusiast
DSR207,
The dyno curves proved my point. Significantly more torque at low engine speeds. Look how flat that torque curve is for the turbo car.
And how does a VEC2 change the boost of a supercharger? A VEC2 can only change the fuel and timing settings. You have to change the pulley diameter to change the boost on a supercharger. Since you own a supercharger you should know this. A turbocharger system uses an exhasut wastegate to bypass the exhaust gasses around the compressor to limit boost. This wastegate can be remotely controlled from inside the car while driving down the road.
You seem to think that a centrifugal supercharger has less lag than turbos. This proves that you have very little understanding of how the two systems work. Just watch your boost guage and see how long it takes a centrifugal supercharger to reach max boost. PS it will take redline on the tach to reach max boost with a centrifugal supercharger. With turbos you should be able to reach max boost at much lower engine speeds. Probably reach max boost with turbos around 3500 rpm or less depending on turbo selection.
Please research turbocharger and supercharger systems before your next response to this post.
The dyno curves proved my point. Significantly more torque at low engine speeds. Look how flat that torque curve is for the turbo car.
And how does a VEC2 change the boost of a supercharger? A VEC2 can only change the fuel and timing settings. You have to change the pulley diameter to change the boost on a supercharger. Since you own a supercharger you should know this. A turbocharger system uses an exhasut wastegate to bypass the exhaust gasses around the compressor to limit boost. This wastegate can be remotely controlled from inside the car while driving down the road.
You seem to think that a centrifugal supercharger has less lag than turbos. This proves that you have very little understanding of how the two systems work. Just watch your boost guage and see how long it takes a centrifugal supercharger to reach max boost. PS it will take redline on the tach to reach max boost with a centrifugal supercharger. With turbos you should be able to reach max boost at much lower engine speeds. Probably reach max boost with turbos around 3500 rpm or less depending on turbo selection.
Please research turbocharger and supercharger systems before your next response to this post.
Dynos don't tell the Tale, just Ask Heffner, even when you see the Centrifugal making more Hp/TQ than the TT on the dyno, the TT still walks it. Maybe it has something to do with the way the car gets loaded on the street and thru the gears...Heffner's TT have trapped 142 mph with just
680 rwhp, and 133 with 585 rwhp.. show me one Centrifugal with those numbers that produce that mph, and on top end, nothing pulls like the Turbo.
680 rwhp, and 133 with 585 rwhp.. show me one Centrifugal with those numbers that produce that mph, and on top end, nothing pulls like the Turbo.
Dyno sheets from Heffiner web page. Shows a slight advantage to TT at lower rpms( you're right
You must be registered for see images
Keep im mind, even with this setup, S/C is less then half the price of the twin turbo.....
You stated in an earlier post that the SC made more torque at lower RPM's than the Turbo and the dyno graphs you display show a monster advantage to the turbo.
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If I lived in another state, I would have gone twin turbo instead of Paxton, but in CA, no choice, TT's don't pass smog, Paxton's do.
The power delivery with the Paxton is very linear, ie, it increases on as you gain rpms. I'm not sure how this car would handle all that TT low end torque, it would probably spin even more and break more things.
In looking at Heffner's dyno chart for the Paxton and comparing it to my own, I don't make that much peak power or torque, yet.... (stock internals / minimum boost / conservative tune), but my car does continue to make more and more power up to 6400 rpm (my new rev limit) while this one falls off a bit sooner (perhaps this example is a Gen II or has stock heads?) It appears that the TT makes huge torque and hp down low and into the mid range. Very flat power curve up to 5500 rpm.
FLYNLO
As to wheels, I am currently running the SSR comps front and rear. Big weight savings over stock, you can feel the difference. Unfortunately, SSR was recently bought by another company. I'd like two SSR comps in 18 x 13's if I could find them. I just ordered a set of Forgelines due to the SSRs becoming unavailable. Rear tires are Nitto drag radials for the street, fronts are Michelins. I'm surprised how well the Nittos have held up on the street. They aren't as sticky as the BFG's, I'm told, but they last about 6 to 7 times longer. I still have to roll on the throttle a bit, but they are sooooooo much better than anything else I've tried and they are Z-rated too.
The power delivery with the Paxton is very linear, ie, it increases on as you gain rpms. I'm not sure how this car would handle all that TT low end torque, it would probably spin even more and break more things.
In looking at Heffner's dyno chart for the Paxton and comparing it to my own, I don't make that much peak power or torque, yet.... (stock internals / minimum boost / conservative tune), but my car does continue to make more and more power up to 6400 rpm (my new rev limit) while this one falls off a bit sooner (perhaps this example is a Gen II or has stock heads?) It appears that the TT makes huge torque and hp down low and into the mid range. Very flat power curve up to 5500 rpm.
FLYNLO
As to wheels, I am currently running the SSR comps front and rear. Big weight savings over stock, you can feel the difference. Unfortunately, SSR was recently bought by another company. I'd like two SSR comps in 18 x 13's if I could find them. I just ordered a set of Forgelines due to the SSRs becoming unavailable. Rear tires are Nitto drag radials for the street, fronts are Michelins. I'm surprised how well the Nittos have held up on the street. They aren't as sticky as the BFG's, I'm told, but they last about 6 to 7 times longer. I still have to roll on the throttle a bit, but they are sooooooo much better than anything else I've tried and they are Z-rated too.
DSR207
Enthusiast
John Myrick, Do you think the SRT needs more torque at low RPMS ?
Try driving an srt10 with a S/C before you answer that....
Any way the poor guy asked "If you are going to stay at 700 rwhp to 800 rwhp.Which is better and why?"
So would you rather spend $30.000 or $10.000 to achieve that ?
Shelby3, I said you were right.........
Try driving an srt10 with a S/C before you answer that....
Any way the poor guy asked "If you are going to stay at 700 rwhp to 800 rwhp.Which is better and why?"
So would you rather spend $30.000 or $10.000 to achieve that ?
Shelby3, I said you were right.........
Casey
Enthusiast
John Myrick, Do you think the SRT needs more torque at low RPMS ?
Try driving an srt10 with a S/C before you answer that....
Any way the poor guy asked "If you are going to stay at 700 rwhp to 800 rwhp.Which is better and why?"
So would you rather spend $30.000 or $10.000 to achieve that ?
Shelby3, I said you were right.........
Try driving a SC, and then a TT with the same peak power numbers and you will be shocked at how much harder the TT pulls.
700 rwhp SC is not the same as 700rwhp TT. It's just not. Yes the torque has alot to do with that.
Budget always has alot to do with it! That's for sure!
Either way though, Vipers are throwing down huge numbers all over the street these days!
John Myrick
Enthusiast
As you have read, a turbocharged car provides a significantly different driving experience than a centrifugally supercharged car. Most of those who have had both will tell you that the turbo will pull significantly harder than a centrifugally supercharged car.
My original post was just a statement of facts that a potential purchaser may want to consider before making the decision to go with a supercharger over a turbocharger.
I did not state that either system was better than the other. I just pointed out the main differences that popped into my head in the 30 seconds or so that it took to make that post.
As far as the cost goes, I do not know the financial situation of the person posing the question. It is very well possible that the price difference between a turbocharger system and a supercharger system is irrelevant for this person.
My original post was just a statement of facts that a potential purchaser may want to consider before making the decision to go with a supercharger over a turbocharger.
I did not state that either system was better than the other. I just pointed out the main differences that popped into my head in the 30 seconds or so that it took to make that post.
As far as the cost goes, I do not know the financial situation of the person posing the question. It is very well possible that the price difference between a turbocharger system and a supercharger system is irrelevant for this person.
Is it a stupid question to ask how a "Roots" type blower compares to a "Paxton" type system?
From what I have read the Paxton type develops more in the hi R's...
Does the same hold true for a "Roots" type...
For now a TT is not in my budget...
But a belt driven system is...
Thanks.
From what I have read the Paxton type develops more in the hi R's...
Does the same hold true for a "Roots" type...
For now a TT is not in my budget...
But a belt driven system is...
Thanks.
John Myrick
Enthusiast
Not a stupid question...
You are probably thinking of twin screw blowers instead of "roots" blowers. The twin screw blowers are more efficient that the old "roots" type blowers. The twin screw blowers are typically located on top of the engine, between the valve covers, sitting on top of a supplied intake manifold. The Roe supercharger package is based off of a twin screw blower.
The twin screw blower will produce full boost at very low engine speeds. The twin screw blower will have zero lag. Normal operation has the blower recirculating from the discharge to the inlet via a vacuum actuated bypass valve. This keeps the parasitic drag low until you need the boost. As soon as you open the throttle under load, the loss of engine vacuum will shut the bypass valve and then it's instant boost. Rear wheel horsepower and torque are typically around 600. Boost level is adjusted by changing the diameter of the supercharger pulley. Typically see boost levels of 5.5-6 psi as a base kit, 7-8 psi with forged pistons, and maybe ~10 psi with alcohol injection.
One of the disadvantages to twin screw blowers is that is is more difficult to include an intercooler in the package. The lack of an intercooler limits the boost level that you can run. A popular alternative to an intercooler for a twin screw blower is to run a small shot of nitrous oxide or alcohol injection.
I do not think that a twin screw kit is curently available for the Gen III cars, but Sean Roe does have a kit for the Gen II's and I think he has one for the Gen I's also. I believe his do-it-yourself kit is around $7,500. There are several people/shops that include free installation with purchase.
You are probably thinking of twin screw blowers instead of "roots" blowers. The twin screw blowers are more efficient that the old "roots" type blowers. The twin screw blowers are typically located on top of the engine, between the valve covers, sitting on top of a supplied intake manifold. The Roe supercharger package is based off of a twin screw blower.
The twin screw blower will produce full boost at very low engine speeds. The twin screw blower will have zero lag. Normal operation has the blower recirculating from the discharge to the inlet via a vacuum actuated bypass valve. This keeps the parasitic drag low until you need the boost. As soon as you open the throttle under load, the loss of engine vacuum will shut the bypass valve and then it's instant boost. Rear wheel horsepower and torque are typically around 600. Boost level is adjusted by changing the diameter of the supercharger pulley. Typically see boost levels of 5.5-6 psi as a base kit, 7-8 psi with forged pistons, and maybe ~10 psi with alcohol injection.
One of the disadvantages to twin screw blowers is that is is more difficult to include an intercooler in the package. The lack of an intercooler limits the boost level that you can run. A popular alternative to an intercooler for a twin screw blower is to run a small shot of nitrous oxide or alcohol injection.
I do not think that a twin screw kit is curently available for the Gen III cars, but Sean Roe does have a kit for the Gen II's and I think he has one for the Gen I's also. I believe his do-it-yourself kit is around $7,500. There are several people/shops that include free installation with purchase.
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