Why do we have such bad brakes?

[dtittle]

Hi All,

As usual, I get myself in trouble with fast moving lips and this may be one of those times, so I apologize in advance for whom I may offend. Please understand this isn’t personal or business driven, but the “burden of un-delivered speech” has gotten the best of me and I can’t keep quiet regarding my beliefs (maybe I’m a chick)! Here goes:

First, everyone knows that Viper brake **** (among many other reasons), because:
5.They took the rear caliper from a Toro self-propelled mower.
4.The car has A LOT of anti-dive.
3.The car is heavy with big tires.
2.Improper alignment and tire choice cause changes.
1.It’s a production car so Dodge was afraid of (hot coffee lawsuits, oops I burned my HooHa) so they make the brake bias wrong (See #5, #4, #3, #2)

Oh yeah, they factory brakes are heavy, are subject to heat, and they don’t release well!

Next, I regard everyone on this board highly. I respect the Schleys, Woodhouse, Parise, Adelberg and Mumford (oh, I meant Adelcrap and Mumspank)…(they’re all fast too…some are really fast) as for what they do and have done for the cars, the series, and smack!

I do, however, have to argue a few things (back to me being a chick)!

I have to disagree regarding the prop-valve! I’m not a proponent of prop-valves but I’m not scared of them either. On most cars the original bias (safety) block is only a prop valve with extreme pressure safety. The common problem is that people try to use an aftermarket prop-valve totally “in-line” with the original bias block and THAT DOESN’T WORK as your only limiting already limited pressure! It’s just like trying to mix an ex-girlfriend with a new one…99 of 100 times it won’t work. If you completely replace the original prop system with a new one it CAN work and I’ve done it many times! If you don’t replace the original system, you’re looking for that one in a-hundred chick that’ll like your ex! I’m not saying that prop-valves are “the answer” but they are successful as every true race car in existence employs one be it manual or electronic. More details later…

Next, I like the guys from Stop-Tech so please don’t misunderstand. But I think the Stop-Tech calipers are Porsche knock-off’s and don’t appreciate the “we invented our calipers here” and “we’re XYZ certified” mode of inventing/advocating Viper brakes! Who cares…I have a 4.0 and am a member of Mensa and I’m smart because I’m certified and I comb my hair with lard…***!!! The Jack-Knifes that blew up the space shuttle were certified too…Is this Hennessey defending his business with “I’m a good Dad and Husband”?

You know, I can put my boots in the oven, but they’ll never be biscuits!!!

Fact 1: Stop-Tech calipers are beefy hunk of aluminum made to fit existing PORSCHE pads with a different bridge device and different piston sizes. THEY’RE NOT VIPER CALIPERS!!! They’re not better! They’re not stiffer! They’re ******* calipers that like most other aftermarket kits require the use of a brackets and other to fit any given car. I’ve tested them and a brand new caliper will flex .007-.0013 at 800-1000lbs of pressure which is the same as commensurate Brembo, Wilwood and Alcon calipers. Some of which cost remarkably less.

Fact 2: Stop-Tech grinds a vent into their standard caliper to fit the Viper. If they were TRUE VIPER BRAKES as eluded by marketing they would have mounting tabs that mate directly to the steering knuckle.

Fact 3: Stop-Tech imposes their own flavor of a “prop-valve” in the piston sizes they use in their calipers and dramatically affect the like/caliper/pad pressure!!! No???…Why they can put front calipers only on a car and make the rear brakes work MORE without changing a thing? We believe that the factory brakes are 85/15 but how much bias the Stop-Tech brakes (front only) have? I’m not saying it’s bad. I am saying that there are MAJOR changes being made…proportioning. The Stop Tech pad is no larger than the factory pad…why couldn’t you use a different pad and change the proportioning to match the Stop Tech’s and save $2G’s?

Fact 4: Prior to the purchase of the brake share of the Viper Days series Stop Tech had been minutely present at the event and in my opinion, Stop-Tech brakes are used in Viper Days due to $$$ and marketing and greasing the skids!

Fact 5: Stop Tech doesn’t mention that you have to mangle the $$it out of your rear steering knuckles to install the kit. I’m sure the outspoken advocates of this system didn’t self-install. Stop Tech say’s it takes four hours to install…but that’s with a laser cutting device and the tech spitting aluminum for hours. To most, it’s not a big deal but in the interest of disclosure it should be mentioned that you’ll never even use those steering knuckles for paper weights if you decide to remove those brakes. Please request the installation instructions prior to purchase.


Finally…this isn’t a Stop Tech bash but rather a hopeful refocus on the issue without some vendor preference and martyrism. Like me…Stop Tech isn’t better, they just different. There are alternatives that are as good or better and less expensive.

Tittle.

Oh, Yeah…WAR BRAKES…

 

[SamC]

I, like David Tittle, cannot now keep my mouth shut and I'm no chick. I spent a great deal of time trying to get the very best aftermarket brake system, I have read on the board over the last year, everyone's posted experiences good and bad regarding their aftermarket brakes. I looked at the really fast cars at Viper Days and figured what brake system they were using. Finally, I peaked over a tech's shoulder as he installed the system. I spent no more than a few minutes watching the brakes being installed. I chose the StopTech big brake system for both front and rears. I got the brakes from PartsRack at a reasonable price.

I am not a mechanic but have been learning how to work on my Viper. I spent approximately 9 hours installing the system. You do have to cut off the rear brake mounting wings. The directions say to use a Sawsall but I found a Riobi 4.5" grinder with cutoff wheel faster. I have no cuts or scrapes on my hands as referred to in the previous post. I did use mechanics gloves for the installation. I found this installation easier than my TeamTech 6 point harnass.

I broke in my pads last night and then drove the car today. The car stops better than ever. I believe and have shown that the StopTech system can be installed by the average person. I am confident it will bring an added margin of safety and hopefully decrease my lap times a bit.

 

[K Adelberg]

Sorry Dave, but I too have trouble sitting on the side lines here. Yes, Stop Tech is different. They even have some patented components to their braking system.

Parise, you provide some great compliments, however this is CUSTOMER SEVICE AND STANDING BEHIND YOUR PRODUCTS. Myself and Mumford have tried other competing products. Now we both run Stop Tech Brake Systems. I personally can't add to the endurance of the system, but with such an important sytem on the car, its great to know you can trust it to work. It is far from "Mickey Mouse" doo dads.

 

[StopTech Service]

Dave,

While StopTech does not expect you to endorse our products we wish you would get the facts right if you are going to make such strong statements.

<<I have to disagree regarding the prop-valve! I’m not a proponent of prop-valves but I’m not scared of them either. On most cars the original bias (safety) block is only a prop valve with extreme pressure safety. The common problem is that people try to use an aftermarket prop-valve totally “in-line” with the original bias block and THAT DOESN’T WORK as your only limiting already limited pressure! It’s just like trying to mix an ex-girlfriend with a new one…99 of 100 times it won’t work. If you completely replace the original prop system with a new one it CAN work and I’ve done it many times! If you don’t replace the original system, you’re looking for that one in a-hundred chick that’ll like your ex! I’m not saying that prop-valves are “the answer” but they are successful as every true race car in existence employs one be it manual or electronic. More details later…>> DT

StopTech designed our kit to work with all the existing stock brake components, including the factory pressure-limiting valve. We very specifically worked to not have to modify the stock components or add additional costs. Often overlooked is the DOT required safety feature of the factory multifunction valve. In the event of a catastrophic failure of a corner on the brakes (torn off brake line for example), part of the valve will shut off flow to the effected circuit of the car and maintains pressure to the other circuit. We do not advocate removal or modification to this particular component, especially for street use.


<<Next, I like the guys from Stop-Tech so please don’t misunderstand. But I think the Stop-Tech calipers are Porsche knock-off’s and don’t appreciate the “we invented our calipers here” and “we’re XYZ certified” mode of inventing/advocating Viper brakes! Who cares…I have a 4.0 and am a member of Mensa and I’m smart because I’m certified and I comb my hair with lard…***!!! The Jack-Knifes that blew up the space shuttle were certified too…Is this Hennessey defending his business with “I’m a good Dad and Husband”?>>DT

StopTech did a ground up caliper design and not a Porsche knock-off. We decided to make our components compatible with the undisputed market leader in both racing and street upgrades, Brembo. Compatible means same radial spacing and compatible bolt circles. As far as manufacturing and quality certifications, we feel striving to produce products with the same thoroughness as OE suppliers is essential to supplying world-class quality products. StopTech is dedicated to providing the highest quality products in the marketplace and must use certified suppliers where possible.


<<Fact 1: Stop-Tech calipers are beefy hunk of aluminum made to fit existing PORSCHE pads with a different bridge device and different piston sizes. THEY’RE NOT VIPER CALIPERS!!! They’re not better! They’re not stiffer! They’re ******* calipers that like most other aftermarket kits require the use of a brackets and other to fit any given car. I’ve tested them and a brand new caliper will flex .007-.0013 at 800-1000lbs of pressure which is the same as commensurate Brembo, Wilwood and Alcon calipers. Some of which cost remarkably less. >>DT

To our knowledge, just about every performance caliper is a hunk of aluminum. You are right though, they are NOT Viper calipers. They are, like most other upgrades, better in many ways. We fit an existing Porsche pad by careful consideration. Not only is this pad available for a reasonable cost in numerous compounds, its size is essentially the same as the Alcon, AP and Brembo calipers we compete against. Note, these are not 8-piston Indy calipers or the Wilwood calipers ACTUALLY used in Winston Cup. They are high performance calipers suitable for both street and track use that the majority of our customer base operates under. Though not an issue for Viper owners, our pad decision also allows the use of an electronic pad sensor for such equipped vehicles.

We dispute your claims regarding caliper flex. Our internal tests to 3000psi show we have approximately half the flex of the Brembo F-40 (51%) and 48% of the Porsche Big Red and less than half of the (45%) of the Wilwood four piston at 1000 psi as one data point. We have not tested the six piston Wilwood, but judging from the placement of the bolts and the centerline of the piston force we predict StopTech would have less flex versus this model as well.

As for our bridge, there seems to be some merit to the design, as we have been awarded US patent no. US 6,302,243 B1.


<<Fact 2: Stop-Tech grinds a vent into their standard caliper to fit the Viper. If they were TRUE VIPER BRAKES as eluded by marketing they would have mounting tabs that mate directly to the steering knuckle. >>DT

StopTech mills a small scallop cut on the inner half of the caliper so the front knuckle does not need to be ground on our 13” kit. This addressed a common problem faced by some existing 13” kits on the market place. 30 seconds on our mill saves 10-15 minutes of grinding during installation.


<<Fact 3: Stop-Tech imposes their own flavor of a “prop-valve” in the piston sizes they use in their calipers and dramatically affect the like/caliper/pad pressure!!! No???…Why they can put front calipers only on a car and make the rear brakes work MORE without changing a thing? We believe that the factory brakes are 85/15 but how much bias the Stop-Tech brakes (front only) have? I’m not saying it’s bad. I am saying that there are MAJOR changes being made…proportioning. The Stop Tech pad is no larger than the factory pad…why couldn’t you use a different pad and change the proportioning to match the Stop Tech’s and save $2G’s?>>DT

The ideal race system uses dual master cylinders with a balance bar. Changing the piston sizes is like adjusting a balance bar on a dual master cylinder system. Prop valves have the same system pressure until they reach the knee point. Prop valves are difficult to adjust and not ideal compare to getting the bias right without adjustment. We move about 8-9% of the work to the rear. Not huge, but also not near rear lock-up. Those with our front kits report a noticeable increase in rear pad wear under the same conditions. The size of the pad makes no difference in brake torque. Placement of the pad (a larger diameter rotor changes the effective radius), coefficient of friction changes or piston area changes will affect brake torque, but not actual pad area.

The Stock Viper pad is 51.4 cm sq and the StopTech pad is 63.05 cm sq (ignoring pad slots in both cases) not exactly the same as you claim.


<<Fact 4: Prior to the purchase of the brake share of the Viper Days series Stop Tech had been minutely present at the event and in my opinion, Stop-Tech brakes are used in Viper Days due to $$$ and marketing and greasing the skids!>>DT

Offering a 4-wheel kit was the biggest factor in increased sales to the Viper Community. The StopTech customers running in Viper Days are winning races, and winning sells kits a lot more effectively than anything else.


<<Fact 5: Stop Tech doesn’t mention that you have to mangle the $$it out of your rear steering knuckles to install the kit. I’m sure the outspoken advocates of this system didn’t self-install. Stop Tech say’s it takes four hours to install…but that’s with a laser cutting device and the tech spitting aluminum for hours. To most, it’s not a big deal but in the interest of disclosure it should be mentioned that you’ll never even use those steering knuckles for paper weights if you decide to remove those brakes. Please request the installation instructions prior to purchase. >>DT

Not one customer has been surprised by the rear modifications required; it is mentioned right up front. As for the term “mangle”, that would depend on who is doing the modification. I recall a Sawzall being used on a more than one Viper with other kits at the first event we attended (VOI 2000). We suggest a qualified technician perform the modifications, and most our customers have such a person of facility do so. Our first knuckle mod on a car was done in the field while testing (Fit-up for design was done on a removed knuckle). About ½ hour to cut and dress each side. We are skilled at this, but realize others may not be, hence the extra installation time. Yes, please contact us for a set of instructions. The modifications are clearly and precisely called out. You can download a version from the Technical section on our website www.stoptech.com or give me a call, I’ll e-mail or send you a physical copy.

By the way, if you do a nice job cutting off the mounting tabs, they do make a rather unique paperweight…

Matt Weiss
StopTech Customer Service Manager

 

[Frank Parise]

Interesting conversation between two brake experts. Our board needs more of this kind of interaction.

I'd like to make an observation for some of the non-experts trying to decide on a system. You shouldn't be concerned about having to cut off a couple ears on each knuckle simply to make clearance for the installation of an upgraded brake caliper. This is a totally painless process, even for the mechanically challenged. The cuts are not visible once the brake system is installed, and, unless you have purchased a really crappy brake system, there would never be a good reason for swapping back to the stock brake system. In other words, your upgraded brake package should be considered a permanent modification to your car.
Cutting the ears is required for the Baer, the Porsche Big Red, the Porsche GT3, and the Stop-Tech systems. Each of these systems are widely used in the Viper Racing League wheel to wheel series with a great deal of success.

Thomas, Foster, and others use Stop Tech. De La O, Greico, Weigel, Ellis, Stevenson, And I use Porsche (which is manufactured by Brembo). McCann, Marziale, Fat Albert use Baer. A bunch of racers use Brembo name-brand sytems. Woodhouse, who is undeniably fast, enjoys experimenting with a completely different system. Different strokes for different folks. Each of these systems get the job done.

I might add that none of the racers consistently outbrake other racers, nor am I aware of any racers that feel they are at a competitive disadvantage because of the brake system they use, other than the GT2 class which requires stock brake systems to be used.

Racing breeds superior technology. Use it to your advantage!

I would suggest that the longer a brake system has been subjected to this type of brutal use, the more time that the manufacturer has to obtain feedback from his customers and improve his product for any particular car. My personal nature is to default to the system that has the longest proven track record (but that's just my personal problem).

Besides stopping performance, which is probably pretty **** equal, there will also be differences in operating costs which will really impact the customer. There are serious differences in up-front costs and recurring maintenance and parts replacement costs. There may be huge differences in brake duct requirements and the damage produced to peripheral components exposed to excessive heat generation.

There are also huge differences in cosmetic appearance.

Time for lunch......out.

 

[dtittle]

Hi Guys,

Thank You Matt for the detailed response, and for the record the ONLY difficulty I have with StopTech brakes and with reading this forum is that most of the threads read “as used in Viper Days”, “QS 9000” and “no proportioning changes” is really a bunch of marketing hype that can be misleading if someone doesn’t have complete technical knowledge of the products. To me, the advertising by all: StopTech, vendors, happy customers often goes too far in one direction. While it’s awesome that there are many happy customers and advocates of StopTech products (I like their stuff too), but all of the hype about “being the Best” is really subjective and in order to determine what’s “Best” people need to have full knowledge.

So far it’s been determined that:

1) There are TONS of differences between “Street Cars” and “Race Cars” and most people reading understand those differences and apply them appropriately but some don’t and everyone needs careful to differentiate so someone doesn’t get hurt by half-informationisms (is that a word?).

2) The StopTech line may have been built from the ground up but was modeled from a competitor and uses the competitors parts.

3) They have a neat bridge design that was unique enough to patent. The criteria for a patent is very simple with uniqueness, novelty, and obviousness being the factors. Their bridge is definitely unique, so the patent is easy to obtain. But is it that much better? While the bridge design is different than most I’m not satisfied that it adds much value since the calipers are SOOO much wider than anything else I have a hard time determining what causes the stiffness: massive use of aluminum or a the bridge design. Did you adapt a bridge to another caliper to test that individual part and caliper for stiffness and reduced flex? Your calipers are almost an inch wider than some of the big Wilwoods that I’ve used and the Wilwoods use pads that much thicker than yours.

4) StopTech targets both street and track customers. They have a product that fits well in the middle but the endurance numbers for racing aren’t indicative of full race brakes and I would imagine there are other drawbacks for the street so I wonder how they reach either end of the spectrum. Does the 4 wheel kit fit beneath factory wheels? Is there still a hand brake? How long do the dust seals last? Does the front kit work well in endurance racing?

5) The StopTech calipers are standard offerings as used in other packages but have to be modified to actually fit Viper and use additional mounting brackets therefore precluding them from being “True Viper Brakes” as often indicated. Not a bad thing but therefore in the group with everyone else.

6) StopTech brake lines are cool.

7) Nobody in their right mind would recommend using a simple prop-valve on a street driven car without major respect for the human safety involved!

8) Of course StopTech customers are winning Viper Days races as the majority of racers use StopTech. Not necessarily due to the technical merit of the product or offering of four wheel kits as much as due to sponsorship $$$ and subsequent points leniency. See Viper Days Rules Matrix. Again, this isn’t all bad and sponsoring Viper Days makes good business sense, but I believe it’s deceptive to advertise based upon technical merit.

9) Dual masters are best.

10) StopTech kits affect proportioning. Even if it’s just a “little” there are still changes. Again, not that this is good or bad it just “is what it is”.

11) StopTech calipers may be stiff but they flex like everybody elses. How much does a ST-40 caliper weigh? I tested a Wilwood GNIII 6 Piston caliper that has pads almost 6” inches long, StopTech, and Alcon 6 Piston calipers and they all flex within same range. Maybe we should do a formal test?

12) Cutting off the factory mounting tabs is an accepted practice. Unfortunately, the Viper engineers were smoking crack when they where transferring parts from the Dakota and left NO room for modifications. Most kits, including my old ones required the tabs be cut. But, the Stop Tech rear kits require A LOT of cutting and relieving that isn’t limited to the tabs. People do complain.

I have no problem being a loud mouth if it makes people ask questions. It’s not personal and it’s not business as most of you know I no longer own Dilusi. StopTech shouldn’t be PO’d about this cause it really just serves to educate. If people think that StopTech is the best for them, great everybody wins!

Regards,
Tittle

 

[PMUM]

Tittle, I think you're wrong about this one. Frank is completely right on this. Racing does matter and there are systems that most of the real racers know work and those that don't. The Stop-Tech kit isn't the only system that works well, but in my opinion, it has no flaws. I've been notoriously ******* brakes since I started driving never really knew why I was so much harder until I rode around with Woodhouse. I guess I trail brake far, far more than most people and that tends to add a lot more heat. The fact that my current car is probably heavier than stock (nothing taken out, roll bars put in) and now has a stronger motor doesn't help matters.

I think I can speak rather objectively on this because A) I tried a different system on my car then pulled it off B) I've driven cars with pretty much every system installed C) I spend as much time on the race track with Viper guys as almost anybody D) I run in Unlimited and could care less about the free Stop Tech point in Viper Days and E) I have no allegiance to any of the brake companies because I paid for my current Stop Tech system and I do not have any "wares" to hawk.

The only two systems that I would ever recommend are the Stop-Tech and the Porsche kit. EVERY other system that has been mentioned in this thread I've seen problems with. I chose the Stop-Tech system over the Porsche because it's cheaper, they're local, they show up at races, genuinely seem to care about making the brakes perfect, they answer the phones and you can retain the e-brake if you choose. They even rerouted their brake lines around my ducting the day before the finals at no charge.

One of the biggest advantages of the Stop-Tech and Porsche kit is the fact that the calipers front/rear are balanced with the STOCK master cylinder. I've seen first hand how stupid it is to screw with the stock master. Watching a friend skid to a stop in the middle of a door to door race and then have his brakes catch fire because of the aftermarket master was all it took to convince me to not try to out-engineer Dodge on the single most important piece of equipment that comes on your car (master cylinder). When you run 6 piston calipers or 4 huge pistons you either need to upgrade the master (scary) or have half of a pedal (scarier--as soon as the brakes heat up because there is no margin for error). You don't have to have huge 6 piston fronts to stop the car quickly. There is more than enough power in a balanced 4 piston front/rear setup. Think I'm wrong? Try outbraking Frank or me.

These reasons along with the fact that they use 14" front rotors (big, cheap and common), 13" rears that are perfectly sized to barely fit under a 16" whell (nice for running slicks if you drag race or Goodyears if you road race), the brake pad is the same front to rear (very convenient to not have to stock two different sizes of pads), and most importantly, the pedal feels no different than it did with the stock brakes. Very easy to modulate, plenty of pedal etc.

I personally could care less who they "stole" their brake design from. It's not my problem because the brake system works.

 

[ACR Joe]

I wish I could add something meaningful to this truely informative and compelling thread. I read with interest each and every post and encourage annyone with additional input to post same. As with many other owners, I am committed to change. Which direction I ultimately choose is yet to be determined but the information provided above has advanced this initiative to nearly the point of action, as in buying action.

 

[GTS Dean]

I guess I'm the only person on this Board who thinks the stock brake system is entirely adequate with only minor modifications.

The tricks are: 1) to disable the prop valve, 2) get yourself some fluid that won't boil (it ain't Motul), 3) do some objective experimentation with pad compounds, 4) learn that getting hot air OUT of the wheelwells is every bit as important as getting cold air to the rotors, and 5) learn how to drive the car using less "brake-on" time. Less pad contact time = more cooling time.

I acknowledge the fact that this won't work for wheel-to-wheel driving over extended time periods. However, it works just fine for hot-lapping and time trials.

 

[dtittle]

Paul,

To say I hold harm against StopTech isn't true and if you think I'm being petty, I apologize to them and you, but I don't see it that way. In a world where perception is reality IT IS very important to illustrate the truth and factual information.

StopTech chose ViperDays, paid to be THE sponsor, and have since been (this year only) at the events as THE supporting vendor. Do I hold them up for this? Heck no! It makes great business sense. BUT! Advertising from ANYONE, you, JonB, StopTech, literally ANYONE...saying that "StopTech as used in Viper Days" or "the choice of Viper Days" is kind of misleading. That's all!

The same general point applies to everything else I've said. And again, this isn't a "mine is bigger" match but rather about keeping clean.

Let's just have an All American Brake-Off. Have an independant like "Hot Rod Garage" take similar cars and install competitive brakes. Then have Car and Driver to a full-flaming test with aquisition. No hard feelings, just facts.

Regards,
Tittle

P.S. FWIW, I'll throw my lowly scumball Z06 in for testing! It stops pretty good.

 

[GTS Dean]

Paul,

You are one of the hardest drivers on brakes I have ever competed against, but it's for a good reason - you're so fast you are a Time Zone ahead of the rest of the world. I think you hit the nail on the head with your own assessment of your braking style.

OTOH, among the rest of us mere mortals, I'm as quick as the quickest of the Prepared guys. I have been through a lot of years of Vipering on track and even with my meager brake budget, I can go with the best of them and _easily_ get 6 weekends on a set of *stock* front rotors and about 1 set of Brakeman pads per weekend. I practically never have to bleed brakes at the track anymore. I can go an entire 30-40 minute session without boiling or pad fade by progressively moving the anchor drop point one marker further until I eventually run out of track. At that point, I back up one marker. As I stated previously, it is not just equipment, but driving style as well, that make the difference between scaring yourself to death every 3 laps and having a great time every session - the whole session long.

When you have good, consistent brake feel and get the corner weights set right, flat-spotted tires become a distant, bad memory.

 

[dtittle]

Hi Paul,

While blabbering I must've done a bad job of communicating my point. First, like you and everyone else I believe that racing is paramount for testing and debugging brakes and that everyone should learn from personal or others experience while on the track.

Next, I'm glad you like your brakes and I wasn't knocking thier fitness but rather how they're marketed. Sneaky vendors and customers often post the brakes are "Made especially for Vipers", "require no proportioning", "patented", "QS9000", etc. While all of those things are nice, some of them flatly aren't true or don't matter when it comes to the primary reasons people buy a product like this. Point and case is your post. You speak of many other points in defense of StopTech which where never in question. I'm sure it's not intentional but it is red herring just the same.

Of course your pedal feels stock cause they built the calipers around the master capabilities. That's great! Now I ask you, did they change proportioning? Yes...yes they did...Different rotor size, pad surface area, different piston size and fluid volume. All that blab about no proporting and OEM fitment is a mute point and that was my only point.

It's great you can use the rear pads on the front. Other kits do the same and it's a great selling point but isn't very realistic except in a MAJOR bind at the track when your vendor or friends isn't present. Do you really do that? Most people run staggered pads with aggressive to the front.

Your flat wrong regarding the 6/piston 4/piston mix. Have anyone that understands bias calculations do the numbers. Stome say StopTech's are flat wrong.

You're also wrong about the master cylinder and back to my original intention: your talking "Street" vs. "Race" with no clear definition. Changing the master isn't rocket science but rather common sense and attention to details. The change you've seen on other kits and described on this board are nothing short of redneck, shadtree, crap and shouldn't even be mentioned here. Would anyone use only one lugnut on a wheel? No...then in the same vein no-one should jimmy-jam some MC solution together and think it should work. If you want to discuss racing you can change the master with great success and probably should. I've done it with success and safety and it was only done with a clear plan, perfect fitment, and educated choice of bore sizes. He&&, I've got a bolt-on, power assisted, cockpit adjustable, dual master for Vipers and Vetts. I'm just sayin...

Finally, my posts haven't been a "mine is bigger" speil. There's no need to speak about it cause' I don't have to. I'd be happy to attend a brake off. Schedule it and bring a magazine!

Regards,
Tittle

 

[Bob Woodhouse]

Great Thread folks, if I am repeating myself here it is because I just screwed up a key stroke and my post evaporated.
You tweaked my interest, a BRAKE_OFF huh. Sounds good. What are the objectives? Shortest stopping distance? Longest lasting under hard use? Least amount of pad wear? Best pedal modulation on threshold? With ABS or without? How about the least amount of front to rear brake bias change from cold to hot? How about the lowest cost to maintain? Least amount of caliper flex when hot? Best pad release? Lowest off pedal drag? I'd like to be invited.
Two items of clarification: pad size has nothing to do with changing friction co-efficients ie: little pad or big pad with all else the same you do not change the amount of brake torque. Also, pad sizes are normally not equal on each end of a car for good reason, they will not stay in torque balance as 65% of the brake effort, (thus heat)is at the front. Pad materials change torque as temperatures change, aha, you get the picture yes? Different pad materials have different torque curves. But if the car is ABS equipped I think this could be a non-issue. An area that gets little attention when choosing a brake pad is the torque curve through the temperature operating range. You have driven on some that were pretty ugly no doubt but never thought about it much and blamed yourself. Some pads when very hot will get so grabby that you can hardly keep from locking wheels up, others you push the pedal through the floor at the higher temps. Dean Word and many wheel to wheel drivers run on Brake Man #3 compound. I don't care for the minor resin smear they put on my rotors but I always come back. They are the best darn pad from cold to hot out there. The torque curve is dead flat. (Now I hate myself for the cheap commercial shot, but I sacrificed enuf money and time to know what a good advertisement is and what works).

 

[Janni]

Cool - we never got to have the tuner bake-off, so how's about a brake-off? Viper Magazine???

Although the testing would be interesting - I am not as much interested in shortest stopping distance as I am in fade and performance on a road course - lap after lap of Mumford style punishment. We need real world data with all other variables being eliminated - things like driver, fluids, pads (maybe) cooling, lines, etc., etc. I'd expect things like the following to be tested: fade, wear - both pad and rotor, pedal feel (subjective), confidence (again, subjective...)

I am also with GTS Dean - yes, the stock system is not good enough for wheel to wheel - but I think that the Super Stock Viper Days guys can attest to the fact that properly set up, it is more than adequate to use in the Challenge Series type events, and is more than capable of allowing some VERY fast times. (Again, compare the times for the Super Stock class leaders with those in classes like Modified and Super Modified...) Cooling seems to be the biggest downfall of the stock brake system (after replacing things like rotors, lines, fluid, etc...) If you can get enough air to the rotor and out of the wheel well, I'd say the stock system is enough for 95% of the folks out there - and that includes the track rats. It certainly is adequate for the street, and I still think stopping is the most important part of driving... so why not build on a pretty good system before resorting to big $$$ and maybe not necessarily getting the best system for how you REALLY drive your car.

Anyway - back to the brake-off. Anyone interested? How about more performance oriented testing in Viper Magazine??? Anyone? Anyone?

 

[PMUM]

Dave, I have no major beef with your brake kit, but for you to hold some sort of grudge against Stop-Tech's marketing is petty. The only marketing I've seen out is them having two techs at most of the race events I've been to. They spent plenty of time helping me and others problem solve when we didn't even have their kit. The reason why they had so much free time at these events is because all of the Stop-Tech equipped cars weren't having any problems. I do use different compounds front to rear, but it is nice to have the same backing plate so, when in a bind, you can use what you have. I also don't hold sponsoring Viper Days against them.

Dean, I agree that the stock setup with aggressive pads stops extremely well. However, it's very dangerous because far, far, far too much heat builds up in the front on the car. Even in time trials at most tracks you can't run more than 3 consecutive hard laps without generating a scary amount of heat. Also, I was going through a set of front pads every day and rotors about every other full weekend. If I had added up all of the money I spent on rotors and pads over the last 3 years, I could've probably bought my own brake company.

I've put 4 full days of lapping (2 time trial, 2 door to door and a few hundred miles) on my Stop-Tech kit and haven't changed a pad, or turned a bleeder screw. The rotors look great and there is plenty of pad left because the brake temps have stayed very low. It's nice to show up to the track and not have to bleed brakes and change pads every day.

 

[dtittle]

And a True Champion Chimes In...

A contoversial thread just isn't complete without the Master Woodhouse. I agree the brakeman pads are cool...I've use them and KFP's which I think come from the same place...they're great!

Regarding a Brake-Off here's what I think!

We should organize a get-together where things are social and do an event early Q1-02. ViperDays would be an appropriate venue!

Now everyone knows there are some clever tricks that can be used to make things LOOK better than they are so I suggest using some simple criteria. Here goes:

1) Shortest Stopper (Some MPH to 0 MPH...period)
2) Quickest Stopper (ditto)
3) Longest Lasting (meaning Fade, as well as wear and tear)

I would also say SOME testing be done on a regulated-speed closed-loop that enforced predicability and measurabilty for a portion of the test. Let's say haul a$$ for 1/4 of a mile and brake for life, quickly turn around and do it again 20 times and take results.

Test road course results with objective drivers.

Test intallability as well as looks, cost, etc.

I'll personally donate my car and support another Viper so please chime in with input.

Who's in????

Regards,
Tittle

P.S. We'll need the following:

Stock Brakes
Street Modified Brakes
Track Modified Brakes

 

[dtittle]

Lil Schuey,

Your right! It was a dumb idea impossible to produce scientific results and we shouldn't do it.

Anyway, I'm certain that my new Viper Brake system not yet released would win with dramatic results.

The radical new design built from the ground up was modeled using cutting edge engineering techniques employing concepts from the fastest stopping vehicles across industries. Using only the finest, certified materials and tested by Bell Helicopter, TX. produces stopping distances as short as 36FT from 60ft without ANY HEAT BUILDUP or WEAR on ROTORS and PADS. Im positve that the overwhelming merits of this system will sweep approval from all racing series.

Well, enough of the introductions...see for yourself as istalled on our most recent test vehicle...

You must be registered for see images

Ordering information and pricing to follow.

Regards,

 

[Jim Hodel]

I'd be interested to see a graph of stopping distances for repeated stops (10 or so) from 125 mph to 40 mph, both time and distance. I'd also like to see a measurement of the Caliper or rotor temperatures at the end of the runs.

I'd use street tires of the same make, and standardize pad, fluid, and ducting, and allow no wings/ground effects on the cars.

One (experienced) driver would do all the tests and provide subjective feedback on modulation, pedal feel etc.

That may not be totally empirical, but would be interesting.

Jim

 

[Frank Parise]

Lil Schuey, thanks for saving me from another long post, you're right on the money.

Tittle, you're hurtin' me! Stop it!

Out.