Why does "Road & Track" bash the Viper?

[Russ Oasis]

Why does \"Road & Track\" bash the Viper?

For several years I have had a creeping feeling that "Road & Track" never gives the Viper a fair shake. There is always a "BUT" written directly next to anything nice or objectively indisputable. On the other hand, anything Ferrari or Porsche, is golden with them. You'd think that there isn't a car on the face of the earth that can compare to the 360 Modena or the Enzo (admittedly, a nice ride). Then, tonight, while I was reading their "Road Test Summary," it hit me like a ton of bricks. They are extremely biased, and here's the proof.
Let's compare the street SRT-10 (a roadster) to the street 360 Modena roadster.

0-60 Ferrari 360 Modena 4.5 sec. SRT-10 4.1 sec (VIPER WINS)

0-100 " 10.7 sec. " 8.9 sec. (VIPER WINS)

1/4 mile " 12.9 sec. " 12.2 sec. (VIPER WINS)

Top Speed " 180 mph " 190 mph (VIPER WINS)

Braking from 60 " 125 feet " 114 feet (VIPER WINS)

Braking from 80 " 221 feet " 196 feet (VIPER WINS)

Skidpad " 0.93 G " 1.04 G (VIPER WINS)

Slalom in mph " 67.4 mph " 68.6 mph (VIPER WINS)

Fuel Mileage " 10.8 mpg " 12.5 mpg (VIPER WINS)

Let's see...the way I figure it, by "Road & Track's" own numbers, the SRT-10 beats the Ferrari 360 Modena in EVERY ONE OF THE 9 CATEGORIES. (And I won't even mention the price difference.)
And how about the Comp Coupe? It beats the Enzo in 4 of 8 categories (fuel efficiency wasn't counted for that test). It seems to me that "Road & Track" is about as bias as a non radial tire. They should be fawning all over the SRT-10 and using it as THE benchmark for performance cars, whether they come from Italy, England, Germany, France (OK..that was just a joke), or the U.S. When you inspect the numbers in the clarity of objectivity, we can be proud of what our cars have achieved. And this is no a** kissing of DC, my radio still stinks.

 

[Bill Pemberton Woodhouse]

Re: Why does \"Road & Track\" bash the Viper?

Well said, Russ, and one I constantly find hilarious in their biased approach.I guess it's based on oil changes.

1.Ferrari -- $5000 to check fill and make sure there is extra money to fill the coffers of Rode and Trick.
2.Porsche -- $500 for oil , filter and numerous gaskets, and a little money to Das Rod and Truk.
3. Viper -- Whole damn encilada with a loverly MoPar filter , bout 100 simoolyahs.

 

[Smog Dog]

Re: Why does \"Road & Track\" bash the Viper?

Ditto on the "well said". Amen.

 

[Phoenix SRT]

Re: Why does

I love the Viper, of course. I previously owned a Gen 1 and I currently have an SRT. That said, cars are more than their performance numbers. Numbers are a big part of it, but the subjective factor is also a big part of it.

I've not had the pleasure of driving a 360, let alone an Enzo, so I cannot comment on the subjective aspects of the the two cars. If you haven't driven one, either, then neither can you. Even if you have, subjective is just that and one person (say, the tester at R&T) may like the subjective aspect the 360 more than that of the SRT.

A great example of this is the Gen 1 and 2 vs. SRT argument. There are Gen 1 and 2 owners who wouldn't give up their early car to have an SRT if you gave the SRT to them. Why? Because they think the early cars are better even though the SRT's numbers are better. And it is the same thing with the 360.

As for the Enzo vs. the CC, they hardly compare. The CC is a race car that isn't (and can't be) street legal. The Enzo is street legal. I'm not sure what categories the the CC tops the Enzo in, but my guess is that if you put slicks on the Enzo (like on the CC), the Enzo's numbers would be better; anything having to do with standing start acceleration, cornering, or anything traction related would have to be better with slicks.

 

[Saleen-Explorer]

Re: Why does

Car mags just don't understand what the Viper is, they don't like the raw feeling etc. They'd rather have a Viper with Lexus comfort. What I really love are all the mags talking about how the Viper is not up to daily driver duty, and is only good for a short outing on a Sunday, when I have no problem driving a Viper daily rain or shine. If my friend and others on here have no problem driving their ACR's daily, then it just proves my theory that Mag writers are a bunch of painsy pu$$ies along with most other people who only think a Viper is good for an occasional outing.

I do agree with the Enzo statement above though, considering what the car does on street tires, I think if it were on slicks it would blow away basically anything in terms of combined acceleration, track/cornering ability, and being streetable.

 

[viperz]

Re: Why does

I owned a 99GTS. Sold it for a 996TT. (My wife's idea) Though I thought it would be a great car as well. BUT, I miss the Viper. The Porsche drives great and rides well, BUT it's not a Viper.
I miss the look of the car and the fact that it could bite back. There are so many aids on the Porsche that you would have to drive it in to a ditch or fall asleep at the wheel to have an accident. Otherwise the car helps out too much, even on the track.
I'm looking in to getting an SRT as we speak, I have a choice of a red, silver or black. All with in spitting distance of each other.
I agree that the Viper is as much a super-car as a 360 or a Porsche, they just appeal to different people. My wife has the C4 Cab, so she'll still have her fun. I just want my fun back.

 

[Viperfreak2]

Re: Why does

Another reason for the 'Viper bashing' is the intangible of being exclusive. Like ViperZ says, he has a choice of three. The 360 and the Enzo are almost unattainable. In my mind, this is one of the things that makes a car special. Yes a Mustang Cobra is a fast car. Do I want one? no. A Subaru WRX STi is a fast car. Do Mustang owners want one? probably not. When you're in the Ferrari, that one in a million special 'feeling' is worth the admission price. A few tenths loss to an SRT (even in every area) doesn't mean much. The feeling may just be in my mind, but it still matters. Don't get me wrong, the SRT gives me that fuzzy feeling too, I just think a 360 Spyder would be like Heaven.

 

[Russ Oasis]

Re: Why does

You guys are so trained by what the car mags have done that many of you are missing my point. I understand that there are intangibles to car ownership. I also own a Ferrari and have driven a 360. My point is that the car mags should represent the Viper FAIRLY, without BIAS. If they like the intangible aspect of a Ferrari better, then they should at least say something like "While the Viper beats the Ferrari in each and every performance aspect, we still like the feel of the Ferrari better."

My point is about BIAS.... not which car one person likes better than the other.

 

[YouWish]

Re: Why does

You guys are so trained by what the car mags have done that many of you are missing my point. I understand that there are intangibles to car ownership. I also own a Ferrari and have driven a 360. My point is that the car mags should represent the Viper FAIRLY, without BIAS. If they like the intangible aspect of a Ferrari better, then they should at least say something like "While the Viper beats the Ferrari in each and every performance aspect, we still like the feel of the Ferrari better."

My point is about BIAS.... not which car one person likes better than the other.

You guys need to listen to Russ he pretty much owns everything.

 

[Phoenix SRT]

Re: Why does

Just because you do not agree with the R&T boys doesn't mean that they are wrong. Hopefully, I'll have the happy opportunity to drive (and own) a 360. When that happens, I'll let you know whether I agree with R&T.

 

[BYT U L8R]

Re: Why does

I thought R and T was owned over seas... Maybe they defend their own?

 

[GTSnake]

Re: Why does

I thought I read somewhere R&T is a French magazine. I also got the feeling that they're very biased. Everytime I read an article about a sports car I wonder how it would compare to the Viper. But they're always comparing to everything BUT the Viper. Maybe they just think the Viper would blow it away in so many catagories that it wouldn't be interesting reading?

 

[Russ Oasis]

Re: Why does

Phoenix SRT,
You are still missing the point. They NEVER acknowledge that the statistics of the Viper are better than the statistics of a Porsche or Ferrari. They seem to forget the objective parts and only state the subjective parts AS IF they were the objective part. Kind of like putting an editorial slant in a news story in the newspaper. THAT'S my point.
Yes, R & T is owned by a French company. You know..the same folks that hate American but love Germany.

 

[doctorbob]

Re: Why does

I agree with Russ. The magazine never compares the two objectively side by side(viper vs. whatever).

 

[Torquemonster]

Re: Why does

It's all about image and the perception of image!

A Rolls has it, a Cadillac doesn't
A Merc has it, a Lexus doesn't
Although both Caddy and Lexus have worked hard to turn that around - they remain in the other two's shadow when parked alongside... yet the Lexus is probably the better all round car from any objective standpoint. Ask any Rolls owner who's car has broken down for the 5th time on a busy intersection!

What about exotics and sports cars....

Lambo and Ferrari have it, DODGE doesn't
Porsche has less than the Italians because it's German but still more than Dodge

Yet were a group of people blindfolded and taken for a ride in each - the Dodge couldn't fail to impress. Change the badge of the Viper to the prancing horse and make sure the finish and assembly is up to the standard - and it'll get rave reviews - esp. for the price!!!

Magazine writers are no different to main media journalists - and I quote one of the most well respected when he shocked the crap out of his peers at a function in his honor by stating "we are all no more than intellectual ******!"

That's right - that's all they can ever be because where money and image is the most important how can the truth prevail? Sales and image is everything.

As for the F360 - great car - but I've watched a guy try to impress his friends in one on a busy street. He stalled it and held up traffic looking like an idiot trying to restart - which he then took out his frustrations on the car. It went very well - everyone was impressed - but I'll say this - if you closed your eyes 95% of the population could NOT discern any difference between that sound and a Honda Vi-Tec ricer with big bore pipe.... I'm serious - it sounded like an insect that needed swatting.

I've since heard some great aftermarket exhausts on them - but that was a stock one and it was laughable.

 

[DEVILDOG]

Re: Why does

R&T and Car & Driver are French owned....you don't have to say more than that to understand the positive bias towards euro cars. I cancelled both....problem solved. Only get MT and AutoWeek now.

 

[onerareviper]

Re: Why does

You think R&T is bad? Try reading some of the car mags that are primarily sold in the UK. What a freak'in joke... They say the Viper is a waste of money, a joke. It's to big, to wide, to clumpsy, to heavy, blah blah blah... Then they do an article on a Ferrari Testarossa of 550, and give it 5 stars in every rating. After just ****** the Viper for certain qualities, they praise the Ferrari, which is WORSE in ever catagory they just cursed the Viper for.... Then they tell you to go buy a Jaguar... Give me a freak'in break... Jealousy, pure jealousy.

It's good to be the King!

 

[viperz]

Re: Why does

I'm selling the Porsche despite the Viper bashing. Should have the Viper by next week. I love the look. I even know a person who traded a 360 spider for one.
So there, to each its own. I'm sticking with the Viper, after all it's the American Ferrrrrrarriii!!

 

[SRTRICK]

Re: Why does

I assume they don't give it good reviews because they honestly don't like it as well as they like other cars they test. I really don't believe that they are lieing in their reviews and withholding praise from the Viper that they really believe it deserves.

The Viper is a somewhat heavy feeling car with a lot of power and middle american assembly quality. If you want a really powerful car that's exotic looking and you only have $80K to spend, you don't have a lot of other choices, but if you are a magazine editor, testing the most expensive cars available to the point that you are not overly impressed by the power of the Viper, I can see where one would have different preferences. If I had the $$ for a Carrera GT I'd have one on order right now. (but I don't - grrr)

 

[Russ Oasis]

Re: Why does

If you had the money for a Carrera GT, you would have spent way too much money on a car that gets its butt kicked by the less expensive Viper.

 

[RX VIPER]

Re: Why does

Russ,

Agree. Have you thought about printing out your 1st post above and sending it in to their editor? I seriously doubt they would print it in their letters section, much less respond to you, but it might be worth a shot.

 

[Nexus-6]

Re: Why does

I continue to send R&T my cash each year for one reason only - Side Glances and the support of Peter Egan.

(and they often have the best photo spreads of any car rag quite honestly)

 

[SRTRICK]

Re: Why does

Russ, Why would the Viper kick the Carrara's Butt?? I don't think the Porsche would run away and hide from the Viper, but 560? horsepower, mid engine handling and ceramic composite brakes should be enough to take a Viper. I would think the weight distribution should give the GT better take off traction and the ceramic brakes should hold an edge in continuous lap brake performance. Besides, the difference is not just in the numbers, but in the feel and the experience of the car, something I would prefer in the GT, at least extrapolating the experience of their other mid engined cars upward to the GT.

 

[Viperfreak2]

Re: Why does

Russ, we understand your point about Bias. I have one for the Ferrari 360 Spyder and the Carrera GT. I've not driven either, but from a distance and history, my bias is that they are better cars. Why? I'm in the quality 'business'. I know that when you put a calipers on the door/hood/headlight gaps on the Porsche, you will get readings like 4.4, 4.5, 4.3, 4.6. No matter where you measure, it will be consistant, like someone took the time and cared about perfection. My SRT is ahead of the previous gen Vipers, but let's be honest, it's not gonna win a quality award. Most people don't look at things this way, but mag writers do. They SHOULD say the Viper kicks the Ferraris butt in the numbers, and make it perfectly clear that they just 'like' the Ferrari better. I couldn't write an article about the Viper Vs. anything. My true feelings would be too hard to hide. I'll probably own a 360 a few years from now when the 380 or 400 Bologna (or whatever they call it) comes out, but I'll always keep this SRT-10 for waking me up in the morning....no need for coffee with this beast.

 

[DBK1]

Re: Why does \"Road & Track\" bash the Viper?

On a side note, saw a letter from a local Viper owning member of this board talking about Cadillacs in this months issue...said his Viper was in the shop alot compared to his Escalade...

 

[Russ Oasis]

Re: Why does

BTW...I have sent letters to R&T and if you criticize them in anyway, they blow you off.

 

[onerareviper]

Re: Why does

You guys that are saying the UK trash mags don't have bias are dead wrong. They basically put down 90% of all American cars in there publications. And then go on the rate Fiats and Jaguars top notch. R&T is more subtle, because it is marketed as an American publication. But in rags that are market to Europeans, it is obvious from this reader's perspective. Take a look at CAR magazine sometime, you will see.... Borders bookstore carries this rag, along with a few others.

I do agree that the Viper's fit&finish cannot compare to the Porsche GT3 I just looked at..... But these rags pick on American cars (Viper + Vette) from a performance perspective, when in reality they can DESTROY there over-priced fit&finish cars at the track. And that's what bothers them the most.....

 

[Bwright]

Re: Why does

The very nature of your request, an objective analysis in favor of your car (on a site favoring your car to boot), is not objective. That you compound this inherent lack of objectivity by asking that the comparison be couched primarily on the strong points of your preferred car is amazing.

I wonder if you have seen the April 2003 review of the SRT-10 and Competition Coupe in Road & Track. I have rarely read a more glowing car review and certainly never seen one so positive for a Viper. There was not one complaint about the car. The only thing that came close was a comment by the writer that heat had been an issue in a few examples which he had driven but that Dodge was aware of the issue and was working to correct it. That’s it.

The SRT-10 is quite new and as such there have not been many opportunities to test/compare the relatively limited press fleet. Road & Track ran one direct comparison to the Porsche Turbo X50. The Porsche beat the SRT-10 in acceleration but Road & Track cautioned that doing so required a significant amount of abuse to the Porsche’s clutch, transmission and axle. That’s as bias-free as one could ask for.

Are some auto writers biased? Yes, to be sure. That’s called human nature. However, the bias does not single out the Viper. Whole countries can be excluded. Road & Track’s editor Thos Bryant in the May 2003 issue on supercars commented that supercars are basically "a European phenomenon." Biases also reflect a larger truth. Despite Motor Trend’s November 2000 test in which a stock Corvette Z06 dismantled a 360 Modena to the tune of a 20-car length lead in a 1-mile sprint there isn’t a Modena owner alive who would read that and think to sell his/her car for the Z06. Bias can also extend to crowd favorites and the way in which a given performance car goes about its business. In Automobile Magazine, a Mercedes Benz E55 lost a comparison test to an M5 when clearly the Benz was in a performance league with which the BMW was not familiar. Pure performance has never been and will never be the determining factor in the equation referencing the worth of a sports/supercar. Nobody buys a car or considers one's worth purely based on a performance chart. So to do what you ask, emphasize that one car performs better though another car wins, is to attempt to overshadow this simple and commonly known fact. Worse, as in the aforementioned Porsche comparison, the attempt ultimately does nothing to change the verdict thereby begging the point of what you ask. On an even simpler level, the fact that the numbers were published for you to make the comparison in the first place indicates that there was no bias as their very publication in fact acknowledged the performance differentials.

To be completely fair and objective, if that really is your wish, you have to compare all the applicable factors, tangible and otherwise, and make a single total evaluation. Anything else is one-sided, slanted subjectivity and does not reflect reality.

What’s reality? In a recent interview, Bob Lutz pointed out that the Z06 laps Gingerman Raceway faster that the SRT-10. Does that make you want to sell your Viper for a Z06? No? Do you consider the Z06 to be the better sports car? How about this, Lutz added that a special performance version of the C6 Corvette was coming which he confidently predicted would "**** the doors off" the SRT-10 and Ford GT. Planning an ad for your Viper yet? No? Then you should have no problem understanding why performance notwithstanding a Viper would not be referenced over a Ferrari in a comparison. Do you think Lutz’s now being with GM affects his objectivity/perception of the sports car order?

The flip side of bias is the acknowledgement of the grain of truth. That is, is there something to what the writer said? It used to bother me when I repeatedly read articles on the Corvette that complained about the quality of its interior furnishings. To be sure, the style and layout of the controls is excellent. However, after taking delivery of my 2002 745Li I had a moment in my garage where after not having driven the Vette for nearly two months I got in it immediately after stepping out of the BMW. I sat in stunned silence for a few minutes. Now I got it . By the same token, is there something to the complexity complained about in BMW’s I-Drive? Yes and no. Some of the features are needlessly over-engineered and the system could certainly use a reduction in complexity. Is it as bad as some writers have made it out to be? Hardly. But, whether I like it or not, there are some truths to what they have said.

Therein lies the hard part. No car is perfect. There is always going to be some nit to pick. Can owners look past their love/obsession/infatuation etc. with their ride to honestly ask themselves if what a given writer said or the conclusion he/she reached was in fact accurate and fair on balance? In the past, magazines have written about the Gen I Viper’s ill-fitting and intractable top. They have taken it to task for the failure of its seats and controls to line up and for fit and finish that, when addressing the issue, even Bob Lutz said buyers deserved better. Having been in the SRT-10 it is clear that the writers were instrumental in that the SRT-10 is a vast improvement in those particular problem areas relative to the car that preceded it. I am particularly struck by a comment the lead Viper engineer made when commenting on the sophisticated ABS system used in the SRT-10. He noted that the Viper team had gotten tired of being beaten in the braking aspect of magazine tests. To date, I have not seen an SRT-10 lose in this respect. That’s to every SRT-10 owner’s clear benefit.

As regards the Competition Coupe vs. the Enzo that is hardly a fair comparison. You are asking to compare the performance of a dedicated racecar against a fully compliant road car (give me that speech again about fairness and objectivity ). To make the comparison fair, imagine a race version of the Enzo that has the same performance advantages the Competition Coupe enjoys over the SRT-10. That would pit the Competition Coupe against a 2,835lb. Enzo with 670hp and 500 lb.-ft. of torque. On slicks. Good luck. In street trim the Enzo recorded a quarter mile pass that not only set a record for a road car but also managed to do in the almighty McLaren F1 by a clear ½ second. If it’s any comfort, R & T complained about the placement of the Ferrari’s horn buttons.

 

[GTS Dean]

Re: Why does

Hey there buddy! Long time no hear from....

 

[Russ Oasis]

Re: Why does

BWright,
You have taken the GENERAL complaint and turned it into a group of small points which can be debated from magazine to magazine or article to article. The overview is that while reporting the FACTS, "Road & Track" writes subjective articles and presents them as if they are objective FACT. Nobody disputes that the fit and finish of a Porsche is better than a Viper. Nobody disputes that the Enzo is a more sophisticated vehicle, on an engineering level. My point is why doesn't R & T say "While the SRT-10 outperforms the 360 in every category, we still like the fit and finish of the 360 better." [Or something like that.] Why are you micro picking a global statement about BIAS to protect your beloved european cars BWright? I maintain that the magazines write articles in a fashion that puts European cars in a better light than Vipers WHEN IT COMES TO PERFORMANCE. (And isn't that why we buy performance cars??) If you disagree, so be it.