Why no electronic stability control, etc?

cash84

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What Lutz had in mind was a sports car with a modern engine management system, new-think transmission, computer-aided suspension design, and world-class tires. The Viper would take advantage of the latest in modern technology. But it would not be a gadget-laden, high-tech wonder bristling with turbochargers, anti-lock brakes, four-wheel steering, adjustable shock-absorber damping, and all-wheel drive. Instead, the Viper would take a mechanically pure approach -- loads of power fed to simple rear drive. Brute force. As in the Shelby Cobra, there would exist an unfiltered communication between driver, car, and road.

Howstuffworks "History of the Dodge Viper"
 

Warfang

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Well said GBATEJAN. However, if we want Viper to maintain its racing heritage Viper owners will have make themselves heard by Chyrsler. Racing is not on Chrysler's agenda and may soon be a thing of the past for any Chyrsler related product.

Then that's the end of that. Nannies will do nothing.
 

Cop Magnet

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What one man's vision of what a purists sports car should have been 20 years ago may not hold up in today's market. In fact, it already hasn't. Like others have said, zip up canvas windows are out. How many of you consciously choose the GenI over a GenII, for example?

Supercars don't have nanny controls? Real race cars don't have nanny controls? True, but are we talking about selling cars in numbers like a few Jay Leno's could buy, or a reasonable number of specialty performance cars that might benefit the manufacturer's bottom line?

Speaking of numbers, yeah there are scores of wrecked Corvettes that had nanny controls. So what? There were many times more of them built than Vipers. We all know the production number comparo's. And the wreck figures, likewise, are a function of numbers. It's all proportions. The wrecks weren't caused by nanny controls, they were despite them. Any 1st year science major can tell you the difference between an association and a cause and effect relationship.

But the danger in nanny controls and the false sense of security they offer is true. I am not arguing with that. These are the times we live in. There are huge numbers of drivers out there, for example, who never drove a car without ABS, air bags, etc. The concept of a 40 MPH head on collision being a walk-away predominates. In fact, if someone's injured in a car wreck doing something moronic, more likely than not someone's getting sued. Welcome to America. And this is the tide you cannot turn. With more dependecny on electronics, less personal responsibility, more corporate liability for everything, and less cumulative driver skill on the road the Viper is the anachronism of our automotive times. While at one time it served as a personal vision of a pure sports car, it has already undergone vast changes. And if it is to continue to survive, it must adapt.

I've been proud to be a member of this club and, as I said in my first post, I chose this brand for a reason. Specifically, the lack of nanny controls and the skill driving this car has helped hone in me. Don't shoot the messenger, as they say. Those of you who say "over my dead body" or who feel the strong opinion of the VCA (mine included) should be the ongoing vision of the new Dodge couldn't be more wrong. The small numbers of potential car buyers the VCA and the "purists" represent are not enought to float this marquee. They may have been enough back in GenI-->GenII days, and the voice of the VCA was heard, but not now. In changing times, this don't-change-it philosophy will be the end of the Viper.
 

VENOMAHOLIC

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Last weeek our local Viper club had an exotic car outing with many Lambo,Ferrari, Aston, Z8...
A guy had the rare 604hp Carrera GT, as we got on the highway he nailed it and immediatly lost it doing a full 360 ending sideways inches from the guardrails with a 53ft van stopping just in time. A blown fuse had just taken all his nannys away.
Having no stability/traction control on my Viper makes me respect the car at all time

What do you pro nannie-tech people have to say about this situation as I have noticed no response. :dunno:

A blown fuse caused the tech to fail. Granted the driver was hitting the gas but the failure of the TC caused the spinout. Fuses go without warning and during a drive so a pre-trip inspection of the fuses may not catch the issue. I have had ABS fail on me many times. Wires corrode especially in the snow belt making all the new cars and heavy trucks on the road ticking timebombs for failure.

I suppose the pro tech nannie guys will just say to trade in your new car every year and crush the old one to avoid this situation. That will at least save the auto industry.:lmao:
 

FastestBusaAround

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The story you quoted above failed to mention something crucial, as long as we're on the subject...and that is, that when the "fuse blew", the driver would have seen a warning on the cluster indicating that the system has failed...

It's amazing how stories change from what really happened to what some want to believe what actually did, and how...

In any vehicle with t/c/stability control or whatever you want to call it, failures on these circuits are always indicated in the cluster. If the driver chose to ignore the warning, or didn't look at the cluster...that's another story...or maybe the story was complete BS made up by a fanboy, or maybe the driver decided to ignore the warning and WOT anyway...who knows.

In any case, I tend to believe nothing of what I read, especially on the web, and only half of what I actually see...

I figure I'll live longer that way.
 

Warfang

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What one man's vision of what a purists sports car should have been 20 years ago may not hold up in today's market.

The only thing not holding up after 20 yrs is this same lame argument by the ninnies... same dribble then as now. Viper still seemed to have done pretty well and won a whole lot of races. Heck, most manufacturers are afraid to run against Vipers without petitioning for restrictions. One can argue that the more nannies and comforts dodge put in a Viper, the less thrill there was for it. Makes you think...

So none of you ninnies have answered my question, so I'll repeat it:

WOULD YOU RATHER HAVE LONGEVITY OF THE VIPER OR HAVE YOUR NANNIES IN STALLED STOCK?

I mean, let's say the crystal ball says if you put nannies in Vipers, it'll be gone in 2 years. Would you still prefer to get a chance to buy one, or would you rather just buy aftermarket like any reasonable person would?
 
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Cop Magnet

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Yawn is right. You arguing for nannies or against? Can't really figure it out from your posts. Longevity of the Viper means adapting to change, not opposing it. Can't believe you'd even suggest that if it worked 20 year ago it'll work now.

Dodge has no factory racing. No electronics to appeal to the mass market. They had to boost up 100HP to reignite the lost lustre the GenIII suffered from. So what's left? A handful of guys with a few thousand posts on the VCA apiece? Yeah, they'll buy enough cars to keep the line afloat.
 

2000_Black_RT10

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But the danger in nanny controls and the false sense of security they offer is true. I am not arguing with that. These are the times we live in. There are huge numbers of drivers out there, for example, who never drove a car without ABS, air bags, etc. The concept of a 40 MPH head on collision being a walk-away predominates. In fact, if someone's injured in a car wreck doing something moronic, more likely than not someone's getting sued. Welcome to America. And this is the tide you cannot turn. With more dependecny on electronics, less personal responsibility, more corporate liability for everything,

Thinking you may enjoy this one regarding less personal responsibility in America. Cars are designed different for the US market. In Europe it is not required (ECE regulation) to protect the occupant if they are unbelted, meaning in a frontal collision the occupant would slam into the dash, smash knees into the dash structure, etc.. Federal standards (FMVSS) requires unbelted protection, require knee bolsters in the dash structure, etc.. In other words.. this extra unbelted protection in the structure adds cost and weight to a car built for the US whereas this protection is not required in Europe.
 

2000_Black_RT10

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Warfang

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Yawn is right. You arguing for nannies or against? Can't really figure it out from your posts. Longevity of the Viper means adapting to change, not opposing it. Can't believe you'd even suggest that if it worked 20 year ago it'll work now.

Dodge has no factory racing. No electronics to appeal to the mass market. They had to boost up 100HP to reignite the lost lustre the GenIII suffered from. So what's left? A handful of guys with a few thousand posts on the VCA apiece? Yeah, they'll buy enough cars to keep the line afloat.

See... still won't answer the question. Go buy your dream vette already.... it's available today. :rolleyes:

DOdge HAD factory racing... and killed EVERYBODY. hey need to bring it back.
 

Warfang

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PS.. Cop Magnet.. if you didn't know..

Stability control was proposed to FMVSS via NHTSA, see doc for stats, and the proposal was accepted, to be implemented in 2012, i.e. see following Road & Track article..

http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/staticfiles/DOT/NHTSA/Rulemaking/Rules/Associated%20Files/ESC_PRIA.pdf

RoadandTrack.com -- Technical - Electronic Stability Control (7/2008)

Ya... I could have mentioned this earlier.. but I didn't want to spoil the fun you were all having.. :2tu:
Old news... and probably death to the Viper. At the very least we need to keep the nannies off until then. Then again... 2012 and we're all dead anyways.
 

RTTTTed

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I'd guess that a cheapo garbage system would cost $6,000. Wonder if it would help a Honda or Chevette any??? since they already go extremely slow they probably don't really need any extra slowing down.

Decent cars would have an 'off' switch for performance driving. So we could spend $6-10,000 for an extra electronic system to turn off and have break down for us. Does no one care that it's becoming difficult to live with massive taxes, fuel and every other cost??? We aren't all Politicians that can spend an extra $50,000 on garbage that we don't want anyway.

How is all our homeless people going to be able to afford a new HOUSE/car if the costs keep going up 55% per each year or two. ESC in a 'homeless' person's car? why? Chevette with ESC? Maybe a pickup will cost $90,000 in another 5 years?

I thought the recording black box we're now required to have in new cars was BS. It's never going to end is it? I'm waiting for the Gov to give insurance companies and cops permission to acess the car memory boxes.

Ted
 

2000_Black_RT10

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Old news... and probably death to the Viper. At the very least we need to keep the nannies off until then. Then again... 2012 and we're all dead anyways.

Perhaps more old news for you.. but I doubt adding stability control will be the death of the Viper, but upcoming changes to FMVSS regulations such as Roof Crush are more significant beginning in 2012 which will require redesign, engineering, testing and new tooling. Current regulation requires 1.5 times vehicle weight, now it's going up to 2.5 times, that's 8500 lb roof crush test for a 3400 lb car.
 

Warfang

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Perhaps more old news for you.. but I doubt adding stability control will be the death of the Viper, but upcoming changes to FMVSS regulations such as Roof Crush are more significant beginning in 2012 which will require redesign, engineering, testing and new tooling. Current regulation requires 1.5 times vehicle weight, now it's going up to 2.5 times, that's 8500 lb roof crush test for a 3400 lb car.
You know what we do to bearers of bad news, don't you? :hit: :D
 

Chuck 98 RT/10

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The story you quoted above failed to mention something crucial, as long as we're on the subject...and that is, that when the "fuse blew", the driver would have seen a warning on the cluster indicating that the system has failed...

When did the fuse blow, when he punched it or earlier in the day? I wasn't there so I don't know.

I only ask because in a 2007(?) Speedworld Challenge race at Sebring one of the Caddy's launch control failed at the start of the race and dropped several positions. I wonder what would have happened if his TC or ABS failed (which does happen) making a 150mph pass in turn 17.

Failure is just one aspect of electronic nannies I don't like. The other things I don't like are the feel (or rather loss of feel), cost, weight, expense both initial and maintenance.

If I wanted a nanny car I would have bought one. And if the Viper goes nanny (which the government will probably force), I'll go kit.
 

2000_Black_RT10

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You know what we do to bearers of bad news, don't you? :hit: :D

Sorry.. uh oh.. because I have referred bearers of bad news as being a "sh*t messenger" sort of like the Bob Dylan song "Wicked Messenger" calls out those who enjoying telling bad news for attention... "sh*t" sounds better.. sorry for this "sh*t", won't do it again.. ;)
 

Cop Magnet

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See... still won't answer the question. Go buy your dream vette already.... it's available today. :rolleyes:

I'm not sure what question you are asking. Warfang, since you are not actually reading my posts, just seeing what you want in them, I will excerpt this from above:

"I've been proud to be a member of this club and, as I said in my first post, I chose this brand for a reason. Specifically, the lack of nanny controls and the skill driving this car has helped hone in me. Don't shoot the messenger, as they say."
 

Warfang

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I'm not sure what question you are asking. Warfang, since you are not actually reading my posts, just seeing what you want in them, I will excerpt this from above:

"I've been proud to be a member of this club and, as I said in my first post, I chose this brand for a reason. Specifically, the lack of nanny controls and the skill driving this car has helped hone in me. Don't shoot the messenger, as they say."

You lost me at "Longevity of the Viper means adapting to change, not opposing it."

Anyways... dumb topic. You know what they say about opinions. :D
 

eucharistos

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how did we ever live w/o google and you tube :dunno:

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Sp-VFBbjpE[/media]
 

shooter_t1

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Thats not my quote^^^^Warfang..but it's OK.


Eucharistos, that is the ONLY thing I remember about that movie. The wafers were made from dead bodies.



Sorry for the hijack:)
 

Janni

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ESC is coming - it will be mandated.

How it gets implemented will be key. What else comes with it will be key.

As long as it is 1) defeatable and 2) as unintrusive as possible, I know the guys at SRT will try to keep it from ruining the experience of the Viper.

But - for those of you that want active handling, air suspension, keyless go, cruise control, traction control and all those other options - that's really not what a Viper is about. As soon as you start loading it up with that stuff - you get people cross shopping the viper to the Jag convertible, that goofy Lexus convertible thing, the BMW M6 or M3, an Aston Martin, etc. and then guess what - the Viper FAILS - because as soon as you start judging it against the luxury cars with all hte bells and whistles - it's a poor substitute. And even the Corvette - that has all the bells and whistles you could wany - HUD, power memory seats, ESC / TC , AUTOMATIC, etc.

The Viper is a car that inspires passion. You bought it in spite of it's creature comfort shortcomings because there was nothing else out there that could match the power and performance at a reasonable price. It was "out there" as far as styling is concerned and it was instantly recognizable.

the Gen 3/4 is a MUCH easier car to drive than the Gen 1/2 - the improvements in handling have been phenomenal. But it still takes some skill. And it still provides feedback through the seat of your pants.

If you continue to want to isolate the driver from this feedback with nannies and creature comforts you will kill the Viper and you'll have Biff and Buffy driving the car to the club for golf and lunch.
 

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