05Commemorative
Enthusiast
sell worse? facts please.
Why won't SRT tell us the status of the vert?
- Thread starter DMan
- Start date
Exactly a buddy of mine has a dealership that sells both Its extremely difficult to justify the cost of a GEN 5 when a Cobra outpowers it .Yes they are different types of cars but horsepower is a large factor in selling cars (for 150 k buyers definately care a Mustang at 68k has more power).Srt knows this but on a car that uses a single platform motor there was no money in the budget for moreI hate to say it but I went with the GT 500 to, In 1995 had to have a yellow RT10, at any cost, I love my 1999 GTS, and in 1998 I had to order a 99 GTS silver blue stripe, I just had to have it, at any cost. The new Viper just does not push the right buttons for me, and its to expensive for me. So for 60K I have a 662hp with SVT package, with 1 hour of work, 2.60 pully and down load a new tune you have way over 700 HP, more in line of what I can afford.The new Viper is nice, but boy it is expes thinsive, out of my reach, maybe thats why I am not overly excited. But if it had 750 HP out of the box, some how I would get the money.
Historically the coupes bring more money and sell better than the verts
In 1996 i was lucky enough to get one of the first 200 Gts off the line (first one delivered in NJ )The demand for the car was beyond fantastic as dealers were getting 12k over sticker on a car that was 65 grand .Today the car is out a few months and to not even moving at tripple net off
05Commemorative
Enthusiast
Again, why do you make this statement in regards to Vipers. The sales data would suggest otherwise, so that is why I am asking.
Facts:
1) more conv vipers have been sold than coupes.
2) the biggest viper potential "upgrade" customers would be Gen3's which were mostly (80%) convs
So, I am just trying to understand if you are making a general conv/coupe comment or one directly related to vipers.
05Commemorative
Enthusiast
Steve, I am confused. The GT500 is not a conv so wondering how related to the topic of conv availability. If you could not afford a GenV, then it really does not matter if a conv avail or even it HP for that matter, right?I hate to say it but I went with the GT 500 to, In 1995 had to have a yellow RT10, at any cost, I love my 1999 GTS, and in 1998 I had to order a 99 GTS silver blue stripe, I just had to have it, at any cost. The new Viper just does not push the right buttons for me, and its to expensive for me. So for 60K I have a 662hp with SVT package, with 1 hour of work, 2.60 pully and down load a new tune you have way over 700 HP, more in line of what I can afford.The new Viper is nice, but boy it is expensive, out of my reach, maybe thats why I am not overly excited. But if it had 750 HP out of the box, some how I would get the money.
08viperviolet
Enthusiast
To be fair viper and mustang are different cars. The cobra times are slower than a viper with increased Hp. Everyone needs to buy what they like not bash others.
The GT500 comes in a vert, but the coupe also comes in an awesome glass roof, this option got me in a '14 GT500, the feel of a vert but a coupe and I could take it right to a trackday without an issue. Considering it's in the fastest 20 cars around Laguna, not bad, fast as an R8 around Laguna. But not a viper, very different.
It's not a decision between a gen5 and a GT500, I doubt mant have that decision, they're too different, the GT500 is a fun toy and trackday ride, but doesn't replace the Viper by any means.
I'd make this statement, for me, if the gen5 had a vert or glass roof or targa option, I'd own one already, i'd replace my gen4, right next to my GT500, I love my American theme garage. FWIW.
It's not a decision between a gen5 and a GT500, I doubt mant have that decision, they're too different, the GT500 is a fun toy and trackday ride, but doesn't replace the Viper by any means.
I'd make this statement, for me, if the gen5 had a vert or glass roof or targa option, I'd own one already, i'd replace my gen4, right next to my GT500, I love my American theme garage. FWIW.
What he's saying is if there was enough "wow factor" in the Gen V he'd be willing to up his budget and spring for the Viper. I bet my life on the fact that if the Gen V was radical looking and not a rehash, had 750HP NA, etc. it would fly off the shelf at $130k. The Gen V only pleases one crowd, the die hard Viper crowd. It's a majorly updated and refreshed Gen II. That's not enough for cross shoppers or people on the fence.
05Commemorative
Enthusiast
I actually think we kid ourselves when we say this. The fact is a set of loyal Viper folks are the ones complaining the most. The fact is most vipers are conv, so those customers have no option. The fact is most performance cars in this price range are paddle shifters. So, when someone says the design not wild enough and the old HP story, that would cause them to up their budget from 70K to 130k, I have to laugh.
"130k car Fly off the shelf at a Dodge dealer..."
so, again, back to the purpose of the thread which is around the conv.
At least BigDawg and 1BADGTS gets where I am coming from, lets see 43 foot boat 6 cars 2 of them Vipers, that I bought new, the new Viper for me is to expensive for the WOW factor it has for my taste thats all,you are right has nothing to do about conv, I just like venting, I feel like I am getting my moneys worth from the club forums. Not trying to piss off anyone.
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It is far more than an updated and refreshed Gen II. Every system in it is different. The body materials are different. The seats and the interior are different. The lights are different. The transmission is different. The engine is different. The electronics are different. The brakes are different The fit and finish is at a much higher and refined level. And that does not even address the HP increase from 450 to 640. Are there some design cues in common? Yes. But that's it.
I owned a 1999 Roe supercharged GTS. It was a fun car but it did not compare to my 2014 TA. Apples and oranges.
I owned a 1999 Roe supercharged GTS. It was a fun car but it did not compare to my 2014 TA. Apples and oranges.
Pick lup a Galves (dealers use to get wholesale numer on a car and )every Viper in the book has a Viper coupe (same year )at approx 3k more than the vert . Certainly more Verts have been sold than coupes because the coupe was not even offeren in 92,93 94 95 2003 or 2004.As far as upgrading that market TODAY IS TERRIBLE Twenty years ago MCMULLEN ARGUS had 3x the amount of add space devoted to aftermarket than today.When one can buy 600hp FACTORY POWER complete with a book value to it and in some cases fully warranty
Very true buyers will forgive things at 80-85 that they will not forgive at 100-150k .At 150 k that car had better have it all(tech features ,quality, hp Gawk fact ect.The bottom line is sales and when dealers are trying to dump these cars by selling them at tripple net after a few months on the market that says it all.Nice low mileage Gen 4 can be had all day long in the 60s .Is 40 horsepower ,some body panels and an upgraded interior worth 2xplus that.
johniew398
Enthusiast
Went to a home show this afternoon and leaving there spotted a new blue C7 Vette. We could same the same thing about the C7 Vette. They took a several year old model, changed a couple of things, notably the rear and the upper sides and that is their new model.
In NJ there is no such thing as a non refund deposit .Basically a dealers orders a 150 k Viper for a cust in the dead of winter and for whatever reason that customer doesnt take the car the dealer must refund the ENTIRE DEPOSIT and of course floorplan a car he is not equipted to sell or deal with a customer in that price strata to begin with .A friend of mine whose a Lambo guys gave this analogy=when one goes to the local McDonlalds do they go there for steak or hamburger.
To get a historical sale pricepoint all we have to do is go back a few years to he Gen 4 .In 2009 dealers could not give them away .When the 30k off coupon was implimentated for Dodge employees (binging the purchase point of a used (LOL )low mileage Viper down to the low 60s they sold well
What happens is the dealers who are floorplanning the Gen 5 at 700 buck plus per car are flat out going to tell their zone sale rep that they will not be ordering more Dodge products unless Dodge does something to help them move the GEN 5 in the form of a hard or soft coupon ******* the Viper itelf or soft a discount per unit on another Dodge product.(Dodge will take 2k off 30 Ram trucks you have or may be ordering ) Either way the discount (like that of 2009 )is going to have to be sizeable enough to quickly get these cars off floorplan (If the Z06 is under 90 k the 30k they gave in 09 may not be enough )The people who purchased the GEN 5 already will no doubt be estatic if this happens again
05Commemorative
Enthusiast
sorry, think my statement was interpreted differently than I planned. My point was around the majority of prior vipers are conv and for those owners looking to upgrade to a GenV, they don't have an option if they still want a conv.
Gen2 owners can always say the car looks to similar and the cost difference is too much (even though going from 450->640ph)
Gen 3 owners (2003-2005 were all conv) really don't have an option unless giving up the conv.
Gen 3 2006 coupe owners do have the option of going from 500->640 for a dramatically different looking car
Gen4 coupe owners do have the option, but gain is just 40hp. Much better car, but if HP is your deal, hard pill to swallow for the price.
So, I will conclude for the majority of prior Viper owners out there, HP jump for Gen2 & 3 is significant, but so is cost (which is to be expected)
Just want to jump in here. I'm a member of several large (>100,000 member) general performance car owner forums online, so I get to hear a lot of other brand owner's perspectives on this car, even people who hate on Dodge all day, every day.
I have never heard the V GTS hated on for its looks. Never. Not once. Not from any hater from any other brand. If people dislike the look, it's apparently only Viper people. In fact, I can't really say that I've ever heard it hated on at all, except once, right when the SLS vs SRT review came out, and that was mostly hate regarding the incompetence of SRT.
The Gen II was the teen dream car for most people who are buying the V now. This car fixed every bad line on that car, it tightened up the back window, made the ***** rounded lights more sinister, and gave the hood more bulge and flare, while adding the signature side exhausts (and before you sling s**t, there's a 2001 ACR sitting in my garage). It's an evolutionary advancement, and it's stunning to look at. Nobody is ignoring this car because it looks too much like a Gen II.
They might be ignoring it because it's not a convertible though, which is the topic of this thread. I never considered it because I hate hate hate hate haaaaaaate convertibles, probably some sort of repressed trauma from the old leaky Corvettes I owned, but I know a lot of exotic owners who love their top-down cruisers go for verts and nothing else. SRT needs to get these out there. Build on the momentum of the TA and launch the Vert in time for summer.
I have never heard the V GTS hated on for its looks. Never. Not once. Not from any hater from any other brand. If people dislike the look, it's apparently only Viper people. In fact, I can't really say that I've ever heard it hated on at all, except once, right when the SLS vs SRT review came out, and that was mostly hate regarding the incompetence of SRT.
The Gen II was the teen dream car for most people who are buying the V now. This car fixed every bad line on that car, it tightened up the back window, made the ***** rounded lights more sinister, and gave the hood more bulge and flare, while adding the signature side exhausts (and before you sling s**t, there's a 2001 ACR sitting in my garage). It's an evolutionary advancement, and it's stunning to look at. Nobody is ignoring this car because it looks too much like a Gen II.
They might be ignoring it because it's not a convertible though, which is the topic of this thread. I never considered it because I hate hate hate hate haaaaaaate convertibles, probably some sort of repressed trauma from the old leaky Corvettes I owned, but I know a lot of exotic owners who love their top-down cruisers go for verts and nothing else. SRT needs to get these out there. Build on the momentum of the TA and launch the Vert in time for summer.
Paul Hawker
Enthusiast
Endeka.
Thanks for your perspective. Sometimes Viper owners can be too close to the forest to see the trees.
Viper is what it is. A big honkin' naturally aspirated V-10 in the nose mounted behind the front axels for mid-ship weight distribution. This caused driver to be moved rearward to give him great feel as to what the chassis is doing. It is first and formost a world class road racer with track excellence.
It offers a manual transmission to connect the driver directly to the machine. Electronics are designed to enhance the performance parameters, but not to take over the control from the pilot.
The rear drive, with huge tires, again provides for a hugely satisfying driving experience.
For those who say the sticker price is too high, now the dealers are dealing and it is difficult to make the case they are not selling because of price.
Most every aspect of the Gen V has been enhanced. This is the way of manufacturing today. When the time comes for the car to be finalized for production, there are usually a number of enhancements that do not make it for the cut off date. Those improvements are then continued on to make ready for the next year's car. Quantum improvements are rare (thought the sometimes do happen) but the norm is for incremental improvements from year to rear, and model to model. Big jumps carry big risk, and often one years great leap forward ends up being next years warranty disaster. One example was the rotary motor from Mazda. On release it was considered the next big thing due to it's compact size, great hp to weight, and smooth operation. When later it was found to be gas guzzling, oil burning, low torque and unreliable due to ring wear, it never made the big time. (many owners still love their Wankles)
The plan was to make two Vipers for two marketplaces. SRT was to be the replacement for previous models. Priced lower, and with improvments, but not high end finishings, it was designed to provide an upgrade path for previous Viper owners. The GTS was designed to be the conquest model to attract those who wanted a more dependable Lambo or Ferrari at great prices, and offer equal of even better world track performance at the same time. This model seems to be getting the most complaints about price (as would be expected) from current Viper owners. They, understandably, are having a difficult time rationalizing, that if you want top of the line leather, high end sound systems, electronically adjustable suspensions, nicer wheels, more sound insulation, and super high end paint finishes, that the price can climb rather steeply.
Now, with dealerships having lots of cars in stock, and good selection, many current owners will take advantage of the lower prices and trade up into a newer model.
Thanks for your perspective. Sometimes Viper owners can be too close to the forest to see the trees.
Viper is what it is. A big honkin' naturally aspirated V-10 in the nose mounted behind the front axels for mid-ship weight distribution. This caused driver to be moved rearward to give him great feel as to what the chassis is doing. It is first and formost a world class road racer with track excellence.
It offers a manual transmission to connect the driver directly to the machine. Electronics are designed to enhance the performance parameters, but not to take over the control from the pilot.
The rear drive, with huge tires, again provides for a hugely satisfying driving experience.
For those who say the sticker price is too high, now the dealers are dealing and it is difficult to make the case they are not selling because of price.
Most every aspect of the Gen V has been enhanced. This is the way of manufacturing today. When the time comes for the car to be finalized for production, there are usually a number of enhancements that do not make it for the cut off date. Those improvements are then continued on to make ready for the next year's car. Quantum improvements are rare (thought the sometimes do happen) but the norm is for incremental improvements from year to rear, and model to model. Big jumps carry big risk, and often one years great leap forward ends up being next years warranty disaster. One example was the rotary motor from Mazda. On release it was considered the next big thing due to it's compact size, great hp to weight, and smooth operation. When later it was found to be gas guzzling, oil burning, low torque and unreliable due to ring wear, it never made the big time. (many owners still love their Wankles)
The plan was to make two Vipers for two marketplaces. SRT was to be the replacement for previous models. Priced lower, and with improvments, but not high end finishings, it was designed to provide an upgrade path for previous Viper owners. The GTS was designed to be the conquest model to attract those who wanted a more dependable Lambo or Ferrari at great prices, and offer equal of even better world track performance at the same time. This model seems to be getting the most complaints about price (as would be expected) from current Viper owners. They, understandably, are having a difficult time rationalizing, that if you want top of the line leather, high end sound systems, electronically adjustable suspensions, nicer wheels, more sound insulation, and super high end paint finishes, that the price can climb rather steeply.
Now, with dealerships having lots of cars in stock, and good selection, many current owners will take advantage of the lower prices and trade up into a newer model.
Paul i have been involved with these cars since 1994 and have owned 4 of them (some with 50k in mods in them )A great friend of mine owns what used to be the second largest Vi[per dealer in the country .Any way you slice it the Gen 5 is underpowered ,under tech and way way too much mone.y Since 94 i probably have helped facilitate the sale of 50 of these cars. At the price point the car now occupys there are a dozen choices more desireable choices to the buyer( Low mileage FGT and Ferrarri 430S can be had for the price of a GTS )In the heyday of the Viper it was the perf-price bargen of the century .As others have posted the sales numbers dont lie -the only way for the model to continue (vert or coupe )is for Dodge to dramatacally reduce the price to a range indicitave of what its competition is offering.
The problem is this, how is Dodge going to convince dealers to order a Vert when they are getting absolutely destroyed on floorplan because of unsold coupes (many 2013 year models )Its a business for the cost of a GTS a dealer can floorplan 4-5 Jeep Grand Cherokees that they can actually make money on when sold
ViperSmith
Enthusiast
Uh huh. Apparently none of you have a concept of inflation. The SRT is the same price as any other generation.
In 2009 it also sold terrirbly untill a 35 k off coupon was released .The Gen 1 and 2s sold well because they were the price perf barg of the cen tury The car is now in a price range that puts it against cars with better pedigrees ,better quality ,better technology and more features .
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