***?? $3.00 piston rods?

[black mamba1]

O.k, I loooooove my Viper. But my engine in my 04 SRT basically exploded on me during some spirited driving a few weeks ago. Now, after pulling my engine apart, my Viper tech tells me the internals (rods, bolts, pistons) of my 04 SRT are basically bottom dollar parts you would find in a Dodge Neon, certainly not parts that should be found in an $86,000 sports car w/ 510 horsepower. I am stunned to learn DC would do such a foolish thing. To their credit, I believe they are researching the problem and might have even corrected the problem for the 05's and 06's. But let me warn all you 03 and 04 SRT owners...your piston rods are $3.00 rods built in China or somewhere from slave labor ...and it is not if they fail...its when. If you own an 03 orf 04 you should upgrade your pistons, rods, and bearings immediately, hell, my engine even caught fire during the failure. Call Chuck Tator at Tators Dodge for advice on what and how to upgrade your internals.

The crazy part of all this....is I still looooooove my Viper and would never drive any other sports car!

 

[dave6666]

Love is wicked, isn't it?

 

[black mamba1]

Love is wicked, isn't it?

It most definitely is.

 

[Lawrenzo]

That's why I bought an '05

The 2008's have the pistons from the 6.1 Hemi so they have had a looong on the road testing run on them bad boys.

 

[Viper Specialty]

Actually, 03 cars have much better rods than the 04-06 cars, they are forged like the 92-02 cars. Later rods are Powdered Metal, and flat out ****. For an example of how brittle they are, suspend one by its ends, and give it a good whack with a hammer in the middle. CRACK!

Yes, the rods in the 04-06 cars are absolute garbage and would be better suited as paperweights.

 

[Viper Specialty]

That's why I bought an '05

The 2008's have the pistons from the 6.1 Hemi so they have had a looong on the road testing run on them bad boys.

.....sorry, your 05 has the same parts in it.

And also the 6.1L parts are also PM. Better? sure. How much?


Not Much.


Cheap is the name of the game.

 

[black mamba1]

Actually, 03 cars have much better rods than the 04-06 cars, they are forged like the 92-02 cars. Later rods are Powdered Metal, and flat out ****. For an example of how brittle they are, suspend one by its ends, and give it a good whack with a hammer in the middle. CRACK!

Yes, the rods in the 04-06 cars are absolute garbage and would be better suited as paperweights.

This is bullsh*t guys...straight bullsh*t. I appreciate the info from Final GTS, but I am furious DC would do something do g*ddamn foolish.

 

[texas_venom]

I would get a second opinion first since this doesnt seem to be a common problem. I have an 04 and it is a very strong motor. My dads is an 04 as well and his motor pulls strong too. This is the first time I have heard this happening and would liek to know if its a fact or if this is just someones opinion... like so many other things in here.

 

[plumcrazy]

doesnt suprise me coming from DC these days.

 

[Viper Specialty]

I would get a second opinion first since this doesnt seem to be a common problem. I have an 04 and it is a very strong motor. My dads is an 04 as well and his motor pulls strong too. This is the first time I have heard this happening and would liek to know if its a fact or if this is just someones opinion... like so many other things in here.

Not opinion... fact.

The strength of a rod has nothing to do with how "strong" the car is/feels... unless it fails of course. Hell, those brittle rods can support a nice amount of power in PERFECT conditions. Rods only "need" to be strong supporting normal vertical forces. However, a brittle rod slammed by detonation, twisted by a spun bearing, or stretched by over-reving will flat out crumble rather than bend like its forged counterparts. The result? 9/10 times it absolutely destroys the engine block and everything in it. Forged rods usually hold together long enough to allow you to get the car stopped without windowing your block multiple times. PM rods, do not however. I am not trying to scare anyone, a PM rod in a mostly stock engine that never has a spun bearing will likely be fine for its normal lifespan. I do encourage those who are looking to "up the ante", especially on the road course with high power cars where oil starvation and spun bearings occur more frequently, to consider the cost of a set of nice Rods/Pistons VS a new engine block... easier to do it now than later.

I think Kai can add to this one if he sees it... its a been there done that for him.

This is not an isolated incident by any means.

 

[FLOORIN04]

well i have to leave this on ky computer so the wife will see it.Looks like I might have to send car out to Jason or Doug to have this problem fixed ASAP.Might have to put a little more bolt ons while its in the shop.Since its a safty hazzard!!!!!

 

[black mamba1]

I have heard that 04 SRT's are starting to show up in shops throughout the country w/ this problem. DC has asked me for my motor, and it seems as if they are aware of this problem and are planning some kind of remedy. Before my engine flew apart my car "felt" as strong as any 510 hp car should "feel", whatever that means.

Now....to make matters even more interesting I understand that production on all 08's has stopped due to engine problems ...but that is really for another thread.

 

[ROCKET62]

Interesting post as many of consider our V10's to be indestructible. So much for making fun of the Z06 blow-ups.

 

[Viper Wizard]

Actually, 03 cars have much better rods than the 04-06 cars, they are forged like the 92-02 cars. Later rods are Powdered Metal, and flat out ****. For an example of how brittle they are, suspend one by its ends, and give it a good whack with a hammer in the middle. CRACK!

Yes, the rods in the 04-06 cars are absolute garbage and would be better suited as paperweights.

I'm not to sure about that Dan. Right now in my shop I have apart a 03, 04 & 05 motors apart and they ALL have powered rods in them!! The only thing different with the 03 rod is that there is more material on the rods BUT they are still a powered rod!! JUNK!! They WILL NOT take any deflection!

 

[Viper Specialty]

I'm not to sure about that Dan. Right now in my shop I have apart a 03, 04 & 05 motors apart and they ALL have powered rods in them!! The only thing different with the 03 rod is that there is more material on the rods BUT they are still a powered rod!! JUNK!! They WILL NOT take any deflection!

Chuck-

Trust me, the 03 rods are forged, albeit they are a different type of steel as they are Cracked Cap design (inbetween the earlier type forged and the new PM in how brittle they are most likely). Look at the edges of the rods, you will see the forging marks. The PM rods have a "sand" like look to them, where the forged rods either have forging marks, are shot-peened look, or both. Color is also different, the Forged rods are silver, the PM rods are brown. If I have a moment later, I will post a picture...have an 03 rod laying around here somewhere.

 

[Kai SRT10]

I would get a second opinion first since this doesnt seem to be a common problem. I have an 04 and it is a very strong motor. My dads is an 04 as well and his motor pulls strong too. This is the first time I have heard this happening and would liek to know if its a fact or if this is just someones opinion... like so many other things in here.

If this is the first time you've heard of this happening, you either haven't been on the boards long or haven't been paying attention.

Here is my stock rod:

 

[Fast Viper]

Wow! So what about the guys who are doing the paxton on stock internals? Also what did you replace the rods with?

 

[Viper Wizard]

Chuck-

Trust me, the 03 rods are forged, albeit they are a different type of steel as they are Cracked Cap design (inbetween the earlier type forged and the new PM in how brittle they are most likely). Look at the edges of the rods, you will see the forging marks. The PM rods have a "sand" like look to them, where the forged rods either have forging marks, are shot-peened look, or both. Color is also different, the Forged rods are silver, the PM rods are brown. If I have a moment later, I will post a picture...have an 03 rod laying around here somewhere.

I'll take another look Dan but they [to me] don't look that much better. The motors I have here I'm going with a T1 rods [shorter then stock] and CP pistons [taller] to drop the rings down a little. For the SC motors I'll scallop/dish the tops of the pistons by .015". That should make for some big HP numbers.

 

[Viper X]

Interesting thread.

I posted questions some time ago about the use of "cracked cap powdered metal" rods in our engines. I'm not so sure that they are garabage but I, like most of you, would have preferred a good forged rod and forged pistons. We didn't get them.

I have done considerable reading on pm rods and they are "forged", sort of, just not the same way as the rods in our Gen II cars. They use a different process and a different base material, hence the name "powdered" metal. As for straight line strength, they are very strong. The problem is as stated above, they don't flex well.

FYI, LS1 engines also use powdered metal rods. Some LS1 engines make up to 1000 hp using these pm rods.

Also, FYI, I had some serious detonation issues in my 04 "with OE internals" and a Paxton due to poor tuning. After disassembly, we found broken ring lands in 7 pistons, scratched cylinder walls and other internal issues. The rods were undamaged and the engine held together and continued to run. I drove it into my local shop over 60 miles just before we tore it down.

I had it rebuilt with forged rods and pistons, and a bunch of other goodies, like Kai did.

So I guess my experience would lead me to believe that while our pm rods are not ideal, they will hold up fairly well if there aren't any other issues with the engine.

Dan

 

[GR8_ASP]

Dan is absolutely correct. The 2003 rods were the strongest of any year Viper. The forged steel with cracked cap is the best of both worlds. Significantly stronger (not just more ductile but stronger as well) than the later PM rods. I believe the weakest aspect of the PM rods is for overspeed (tensile failure). Of course a spun bearing will provide significant heat and bending load to take out any rod. Just depends how hot and how much bearing drag it causes.

 

[black mamba1]

Whatever. I trust Chuck Tator. He has been working on Vipers since they were just concept cars. Whatever Chuck's remedy is is what I will go with....but I appreciate all the great advice and opinions here...this is what makes this forum valuable.

 

[GR8_ASP]

Take a look. These are 2003's. Definitely not Powdered metal. Forged and cracked. Strongest Viper rods of any year. Period. Higher resolution in my Media area.

 

[Finally got it !]

Now....to make matters even more interesting I understand that production on all 08's has stopped due to engine problems ...but that is really for another thread.

Where did you get this info from??

 

[Viper Specialty]

Take a look. These are 2003's. Definitely not Powdered metal. Forged and cracked. Strongest Viper rods of any year. Period. Higher resolution in my Media area.

Yepper... those are 03's.

Should also be noted that the 03 cars use the same width rod bearings as the 92-02 cars. The 04+ cars use a narrower bearing. Rod length is also a tad different.

 

[GR8_ASP]

Hey Daniel. You would of never expected I had the bottom opened up and ready for a photograph. Nah, what is the chance???

 

[Nowayforya]

Based on what has been written in the prior post, it seems infinite that all or the majority of those owning 2004 models will experience motor failure due to the poor quality of the connecting rods. It seems to me that Dodge would recall and correct the problem, as soon as possible, as all of the 04 models carried the 7/70 warranty. It’s much more cost effective to replace the rods than replace the motor.
Either way, makes no difference to me. I will be keeping my 04 through the warranty period and if it fails, I will let Dodge worry about that! Maybe even driving it a little harder.

 

[GR8_ASP]

Based on what has been written in the prior post, it seems infinite that all or the majority of those owning 2004 models will experience motor failure due to the poor quality of the connecting rods. It seems to me that Dodge would recall and correct the problem, as soon as possible, as all of the 04 models carried the 7/70 warranty. It’s much more cost effective to replace the rods than replace the motor.
Either way, makes no difference to me. I will be keeping my 04 through the warranty period and if it fails, I will let Dodge worry about that! Maybe even driving it a little harder.

Clearly a misinterpretation. What was said is that if you have a bearing failure (that is a big IF), that the conn rod is much more likely to break and cause more severe damage. But a bearing failure is already severe damage.

The second aspect is for those that add turbos or superchargers, and thus up the power significantly. In that case it is being said that the previous rods were more suited for that case.

But to indicate it is a widespread condition with stock cars is a misrepresentation of what I read here.

 

[black mamba1]

My 04 SRT had no forced induction, and the #3 rod failed.

 

[MbnViper]

my cousin stock 04 SRT rod failed too ! its a common problem

 

[klamathpro]

Good Gosh Darn! I'm glad I have a real Viper without this problem.

Notice that these cost saving "features" came around after Diamler came around. a.k.a. creampuffs.
Always starting out right and then messing with success later.

Sure, Gen1 headgaskets failed, but that's only after over 10 years. CG should recall these things.