Z06 against SRT 10

[toddt]

If you pulled away from a GTS in a stock Z06 at anywhere near 60 mph:

1) he didn't care you were there.
or
2) he was too lazy to shift out of 6th.


Don't kid yourself.

<FONT size="20">DO NOT KID YOURSELF</FONT s>

Above 60 miles an hour, you could not "hang with" a *Gen I* in a stock ZO6. Duh.

ALL of us know precisely of what we speak...

"Hey look--he doesn't see me...check it out, I'm HANNNGIN with him, I'm HAAANNNNNgin!"

 

[agentf1]

Mike, my post wasn't meant to be a flame. I just thought it is funny how people have different perceptions from what they read and really things are pretty much the same with both cars/forums.


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
Listen, I know you have some sort of beef with the Viper
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wrong, I am in the market for one and trying to educate myself on their ideosyscracies just like I did when I bought a Z. After reading Z06vette.com I decided to wait and get an 02 due to the oil burning issues. I am also aware of all the problems vettes had over the year and this is why I waited until close to the end of the C5 run to buy one now that the column lock, oil burning etc issues have been resolved. I will probably wait for the C6 to be out for a while before you see me in one of them. So far I don't see alot of the problems the Viper have as being a show stopper for me as I would probably buy an 02 or wait until the SRT 10 has been out for a few years (hate to wait that long).


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
I just re-read my above post - seems kinda harsh perhaps.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes... Once I am a viper owner will I be able to discuss these types of issues without people flying off the handle thinking I am flaming the Viper???

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
I guess my point is simply this... neither the Viper nor the Vette is going to win any awards for quality like Honda or Lexus would win - that's just life.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Same point I was trying to make. It was not me that had said the Z06 quality was superior to the Viper in this thread.

 

[agentf1]

Toddt, I disagree on the Z06 Gen I issue. Stock to stock of course. GenI's are not high 11 second cars. They are at best comparable to the Z06's, at best... That is in performance only of course. Most stock Z's are running average 12.2 to 12.6 with RARE cases running high 11's.

DO NOT KID YOURSELF

Not going to go there on the GTS issue, with a good driver most can get into the 11's.

 

[toddt]

This is so old.

"My Z06 is as fast as a viper."

"I know because the dealer/GM magazines told me."

<FONT size="10">460 != 385 or 405

NOBODY = 500 ft/lbs</FONT s>

 

[DBK1]

Well, both the Viper and the Z06 apples fall from the same crappy American quality control tree, so...If we wanted a Lexus, most people who have one or the other would have bought one. Dodge, Chevy, either way you aren't gonna get the level of sophistication the German or Japanese marques have.

I wouldn't even compare the 80k SRT-10 to the 50k Z06, just like I wouldn't compare a 26k mustang GT to the 50k Z06. The Z06 and SRT are similiar in that they have large powerful motors and run very fast, but beyond that....

I for one prefer the looks of the Z06 to the SRT. Perhaps if there had never been an original Viper to compare it to it would be a different story, but fact of the matter is it's inevitable that the original will be floating through your mind when seeing the new style. I think my fervent dislike of the SRT's styling cues springs from the fact that the GTS and RT/10 were just so much more exciting. With the Z06, I get a car that's relatively stealthy in that most people don't know what it is, and it fits "right". For what it is, the Z is a good evolution of the regular C5. Everytime I see the SRT, it's like something is missing from the character now, at least on the exterior.

 

[Viperfreak2]

Aren't gonna get to the sophistication of the who? DAIMLER-Chrysler IS also Mercedes-Benz. TRUST ME, the Germans would not have left all the engineers on the Mercedes side of the fence during project VGX! I think the new SRT-10 will have a lot of improvements in the quality dept. Is this any different than the engineering that went into the new SL Mercedes? We'll have to wait and see. The curb weight difference between the two cars has got to be the gizmo factor in the Merc. Other than that, they are similar in size and power (469 in the AMG) and engineered and built by the same company.....

 

[agentf1]

Toddt, Since when did Gen I Vipers come with 460 HP? Better to look at HP to wieght ratio. Don't have the figures in front of me but think the hp to wieght ratio is about the same or possibly better with Z06 to the Gen I. Regardless, the Gen I is not the car for me. I am basing my opinion on what I see the Gen I cars running at the track compared to what the Z06's are running. Not really looking to get into a debate on this issue anyway, I know this topic has been beaten to death on both forums anyway. How about them new 03 Cobra's?

 

[King GTS]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
Originally posted by Vetteboy:


Not to menton the Viper is a heavy pig compared to the vette.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

 

[Mike Brunton]

AgentF1,

I don't think you are a Viper buyer at all.. I have seen several comments you have made that are veiled insults towards the Viper. The only one I can remember is "the traction control in the Vette is great... doesn't the Viper have it too?" - like you didn't know the Viper doesn't have anything of the sort. But I'm not going to argue this - just telling you my impression.


To all,

I have a few friends with Z06's. One has one because he feels it's a car he can handle, with the electronics that prevent you from screwing up too bad. Another likes the comfort, the non-descriptness of the car, and the fact that they are cheap money. Another likes "sleepers" and feels the Z06 looks like a regular vette to 99% of folks. I honestly don't think many folks are having to choose between these two cars. There is a BIG difference between spending $45k brand new on a car you can drive every day, and one that costs upwards of $80k that you don't feel comfortable driving on more than the weekends and you hurt value if the miles go over 20k. Thats just life.

There will always be guys who will point to the comfort of the Vette and say it's better. There will be guys who will talk about how such and such a magazine rated it better, or how so-and-so got it around a track better.

There is only one thing we really do know from all this posturing... the guys who REALLY race their cars know the scoop. The ones who live vicariously through magazine tests will probably tend to spout off about the Viper being a "fat pig" and how the Z06 handles better, etc.

In all honesty... the 2002 Z06 and the 1996-2002 Viper GTS are very very close in most respects, except price, looks, bulletproof-ness, and daily driveability. If you can swing the extra $35k, and can have an $80k toy, and want the ultimate performance, and like getting alot of attention, the Viper is your car. But I wouldn't want to drive a Viper every day in Boston traffic. If I had to pick one, I'd probably take the Z06... but life has blessed me with the ability to afford an $80k toy, and for that money, the Z06 ain't even a competitor in terms of what gets me excited.

Bear in mind too that the '02 Z06 is nipping at the heels of the '96 Viper. Dodge is aware of this and the '03 Viper will widen that gap once again. Car companies always play leapfrog... it's just the way of things. As it happens, for '02, Dodge is at the end of a cycle, GM is at the beginning... we should all be happy that the Viper cycle leaves it at the pinnacle of US car performance.

 

[toddt]

No worries vettboy--whatever it is, I'm sure your car will still be faster.

 

[toddt]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Vetteboy:
I couldnt agree with you more on the fact that the new snake shall be king of the hill temporarily as far as performance. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

In case you missed it, the OLD SNAKE is STILL king of the hill. You think that 405 number on the side of your car makes it faster than this?
http://popularmechanics.com/popmech/auto2/MCSDVIP.html
Notice this is the 450/490 car.
We drive the 460/500 car.

Please, come up with some published numbers or timeslips, or come to this board with more respect.

You made the SAFE choice. Congratulations. You saved some money. Good for you. You pay less insurance. Super, babe. Geuss what? You are still not driving a viper.

Here's a stock R/T that also kicks your 405: http://popularmechanics.com/popmech/auto3/9907AUCTBM.html

I wouldn't care so much if you Z06 people approached with a little more respect. You're horrible.

"Your vipers are great cars. They really are fast. It's so great that Chevy has finally caught up in the performance race."

Believe me, I've NEVER POSTED on your board. I NEVER WILL. I have no urge to EVER drive a vette. I don't NEEEEEED to. (I already drove a camaro). Somehow I suspect you have the urge to rationalize your purchase, and crow about how your car is now the performance leader.

Memo to vetteBOY: It's not. But hey, Edmunds loves it!

The funniest thing in the world to me is all those 2001 Z06 owners with the long faces looking over at the 405 badges and kicking themselves for not waiting one year. Oh, I bet THAT helped resale value. Thanks, Chebby!


From now on, I only flame Z06 posters.

 

[Lee00blacksilverGTS]

As far as the quality issue...Vetteboys...Here's the deal and your problem in arguing with me is that I am one of you! What's the old phrase, "we have seen the enemy and he is us?" I have owned exactly 26 Corvettes, if you're into the oldies my NCRS membership number is 1256. If you're into the ZO6 etc I've owned those also. Have I got your attention? I'm one of you and I still have a Vette parked next to the Viper. The Viper is a HANDBUILT car, about 1000 a year, if you visited the plant you would be astonished at the difference between connor avenue and bowling green. The paint on these cars is incredible and they may be built in the image of the no frills Cobra, but make no mistake, they are put together by guys who really care at a pace that allows them to detail stuff in a way that simply doesn't exist anywhere else except maybe Ferrari. I also own an M5 and I have been shocked at how much better initial quality has been on the Viper. Please don't confuse the extra luxuries on the Vette with better build quality, 26 Vettes.. 1 Viper..You're wrong!

 

[SRT10]

Vetteboy your bragging that you can beat a 10 year old GenI Viper? It took 10 years for GM to finally catch the hp ratings of the early Vipers with the Z06 while the other C5s (coupes & convetibles) have been stuck on 350 hp for years. Ford will even surpass the Vettes with the new 03 S/C Mustang Cobra. So..
QUOTE]Originally posted by Vetteboy:
Maybe you just can't face the fact that a 50,000 dollar car can keep up with or beat a 70,000 plus car. thats the part that makes me smile.
[/QUOTE]
Maybe you, Vetteboy, just can't face the fact that a 30,000 dollar car can keep up with & beat a 50,000 plus car. Thats the part that makes me smile.

 

[Mike Brunton]

Vetteboy,

You can say the Vette is a "balanced" car all day long... the S2000 is more balanced than a Vette ever will be, but that car gets routinely raked over the coals on the Corvette site due to it's STRAIGHT LINE performance.

The big acceleration numbers are where a car's allure comes from. And you know as well as I do, that if some kid in a Mustang Cobra that is CHEAPER THAN YOUR CAR smokes you from stoplight to stoplight to stoplight, you ain't gonna feel ONE BIT better that your car has "balance". How often do ya push your car to it's handling limits? Never on the street... but you can use the acceleration every single day. So the first time you get schooled by a Rustang, Mudstain, 5.slow or whatever you wanna call it, you can roll down your window, and wave your fist and yell "but my car has balance dammit!!!!".

 

[Mike Brunton]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Vetteboy:
I couldnt agree with you more on the fact that the new snake shall be king of the hill temporarily as far as performance. the thing is going to be monster. by the way, what is the 0-60 time and quarter gonna be? iam curious to know because i just bought a mag with the new viper as the cover story, but it didnt give performance specs! i am guessing a sub 4 second for sure. I know chevy claims the z06 to be a 3.95 but in reality i think they got a 4.02 out of it.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't understand your "king of the hill temporarily". The Viper has been king since 1992. The Vipers have alwasy beaten out the Vettes - in 2002, it's very very close, but the Viper is still faster, even if just by a little. That says alot since the Vette is about $35k cheaper. That extra $35k doesn't buy you much performance, but it does buy you some.

As for the 0-60 time - honestly, when you get to this level, it doesn't mean much. I can drop the clutch in my BMW and get a tiny bit of wheelspin. A Z06 of Viper is going to spin all day. Hennessey got a 2.9 0-60 time on slicks... I bet that is attainable on a stock car with slicks too - zero to sixty is about traction and nothing more once you surpass the 350hp mark.

As for the 1/4 time, I have heard around the mid 11's at the mid 120mph mark. And that's a HECK of a lot of MPH and a low ET. Should put it a solid 1/2+ second and 5+MPH over the '02 Z06.

 

[Mike Brunton]

Mako,

The point I was trying to make was simply that 0-60 doesn't mean a heck of a lot when you get above about 350hp. I have run 1.6 60 foot times at the track leading to 120mph trap speeds. What would that equate to for 0-60 times? According to a site I saw that does the 'math', that's about 3.2 0-60. Who really cares about 0-60 anyways?

As for racing ya on the track, I'd love to but Huntington is quite a ways from me. Where were you when I used to live in Manhattan Beach?

 

[toddt]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Vetteboy:
Here's a stock R/T that also kicks your 405:.
Umm, I dont think so, no way. but you can think whatever you want. You have no proof that my races never took place and i have no way to prove them to you. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think we disconnected here.

See, I send YOU some proof of stock numbers.
Now it's YOUR turn to send ME some proof of stock numbers that beat these. YOU'RE the one implying the current viper is no longer king of the hill. YOU'RE the one implying your silly 20HP jump over the 2001 makes it somehow .5 seconds faster in the quarter mile. YOU'RE on OUR board. The least you can do is muscle up with some numbers if you are coming over here telling us the 2002 Z06 is faster than the 97-2002 Viper.

I've done some web searching for the 2002 Z06, and all that I find is "Chevy reports that the car can do......"

The next time I see one of those cheesy 405HP badges (Oh my dear Lord, who would be *** enough to post their horsepower ratings on the side of their car?), I am going to make it a point to embarrass him in front of all the other little cars. And I am bone stock.

For the money you paid for that shiny little safe car you could have EASILY bought a faster used viper--this is not a money thing at all.

The trouble is, you got your vette, but you will always wonder what it would have been like in a viper. 25% more torque than your Z06. 20% more power. Stock. 10 years of LeMans wins.

I never wonder what it's like in a vette.

Accept it and quiet down. The Z06 and all the Corvettes are still the Viper's *****. WE will let you know when things change.

 

[King GTS]

"Z06 against SRT 10"

I'd pick an SRT all day long over a Z06!!! And I'm no fan of the SRT. That should tell you a little something about the Z06. Everybody & their dog has one (or a C5). Looks like a pumped up RX7 IMO. There's absolutely <u>nothing</u> and I mean <u>nothing</u> special about a Z06 or a Corvette. Period. The Viper/SRT-10 will always kick a vette's A!! & everybody knows it, including & especially vette owners.

 

[King GTS]

edit

 

[FASTRNU]

Regarding quality issues C5 vs Viper. Look at my sig. My 2001 ZO6 was repurchasd by GM for oil consumption. One quart every 400 miles. My 1998 Coupe was in to the dealer no less than 10 times for piddly quality related issues, including having the steering wheel position sensor replaced 4 times. My 2000 Convertible needed the rear differential gaskets replaced at 800 miles due to leaks. My 2002 Coupe hasn't needed anything, and it has had a front to back mod package done that gives it 460 HP at the flywheel. Just turned 13,000 miles.

The Corvette is great, but it is still an American car, and that means lower build quality compared to imports and marginal/bad customer service at Chevy service centers. Harley Davidson owners have to deal with the same niggling quality issues Vette owners have to.

I can hardly imagine the Viper being any worse quality wise than the Vette. Probably better.

I like all sports cars. I am ready to try a Viper.
Dave

 

[toddt]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Vetteboy:
What is the magazine you posted? Like popular mechanics or something? i dont cars about that.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Enough said. You don't care about published numbers that hurt your feelings...or your argument.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> look in Motor Trend from 2 or 3 months ago, the cover story is the 2002 z06 which clicked off a 4.02 to 60 and a 12.1 quarter. Remember the whole weight thing i was talking about?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Very impressive. Have a look at this:

That's Ben running his stock-engined viper with ET Streets.
In Sacramento. In real life.

He came back a few weeks later and pulled 3 out of 4 runs at 12.0x.
Those slips were posted, too.

You are missing the whole point here. Don't come onto OUR board condescending to us about HP/WEIGHT. Throw up the numbers if you've got em.

2002 Z06's are close, but they are by no means "the new king". Not even "temporarily"

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
STOP REPLYING TO ME. Believe what you want. I am trying to converse with other viper owners if you read my posts from above.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just which board do you think you're posting on?

They are frying you worse than I am!

 

[toddt]

Vetteboy--

Okay, it's Sunday, and I'm all calmed down.

Thanks for the lively debate. I hope you notice that I never asked you to go away.

Vetteboy, when you get a chance, can you weigh your car? I'll do the same with mine.

I'm really interested in the real differences here.

Mike--thanks for the rundown above. That one's in my books for a future callback or two.

Check out this gen I beating a Z06 in a 100' race. http://vca1.viperclub.org/ubb/Forum14/HTML/011766.html

Peace.

 

[toddt]

Vetteboy--

Okay, it's agreed. I'm gonna go weigh my ACR as I drive it with my spare tire and jack and CD collection.

 

[Mike Brunton]

Vetteboy,

Which Z06's have broken into the 11's? I would think youre probably talking about Powershifter right? Well, he is a guy I have raced several times in my 98 Viper GTS. Let me relate a few stories to you.

He is an EXCELLENT driver. He's been racing for years and is the most consistent driver I have *ever* seen. I could never hope to be as good as he is, and I make no claims that I am close to him in skill level, because I'm not. However, the 3 times we have lined up, I have beat him 2 out of 3. But that really isn't the point... the point is the times right? Well, Ric (powershifter) was running 12.4's VERY CONSISTENTLY at 115mph in his 2001 Z06. He ran an 11.985 in that car, but when I asked about it, he said he ran just behind a big dragster that layed a thick layer of rubbery goo that he took advantage of. Trap speed really tells the tale, ET is mostly due to the launch. I have run 11.68 in my Viper GTS and ran in the 11's several times... so have a BUNCH of other people. Ric has run an 11.9 in his Z06 and his trap speed is more like 118, but I still haven't seen a stock Z06 hit the 120-121 trap speed range, which is where I could hit in the Viper, and others have too.

How about you tell us what *YOU* have run in your car? I have run 11.68, 11.76, 11.80, 11.84, 11.90, 11.96, and a few more 11's. What have YOU PERSONALLY run in your car????


As for the upcoming C6, talking about how that will run with the SRT is even more *** than the conversation we're already having. The C6 has been pushed back to at least 2005, and some are saying 2006... so why in the world would you compare that to a car that is already in existence and will be delivered in a few months? The motor for the C6 has NOT been decided yet and NO specs are available, INCLUDING the weight. The Z06 did drastic things like using a thinner windshield and removing the spare tire and alot of the heat shielding and sound deadening - so how in the world can you think the C6 will be below 3000lbs? Uhhh,well, the new Viper GTS coupe coming in 2005 will have 750hp and weigh 2000lbs, so therefore my Viper is better than your Corvette. See how ridiculous it sounds?

And for the record, I don't even have a Viper! I have a Corvette!

 

[DBK1]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by King GTS:
"Z06 against SRT 10"

I'd pick an SRT all day long over a Z06!!! And I'm no fan of the SRT. That should tell you a little something about the Z06. Everybody & their dog has one (or a C5). Looks like a pumped up RX7 IMO. There's absolutely <u>nothing</u> and I mean <u>nothing</u> special about a Z06 or a Corvette. Period. The Viper/SRT-10 will always kick a vette's A!! & everybody knows it, including & especially vette owners.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wow, you must have some serious issues...Considering there are a shade over 10k Z06's made thus far, at the end of year 2 of a 3 year run, I don't think everyone and their dog has one. Unless the population just dwindled by about 260 million people...

I really love (almost) all fast and exciting cars, but I'm really dissappointed in the attitudes I've encountered like this from Viper guys. I'm not speaking for this guy not letting up on his argument that the Z is faster or whatever, but good god, I've driven all kinds of cars in my life, and the Viper is not soooo amazingly different that you should sh*t on the Z06 as garbage. But alas, obviously I know I'm speaking to a biased crowd, but hey, if you wanna believe you're 80 thousand dollar dodge is really that much better than a 50 thousand dollar chevy, your welcome to it. I mean, come on, these things are soooo hard to get and sooo vastly different.

These aren't lambos folks...I'll just keep on hoping more pure car enthusiasts will pluck their marque biased arrogant heads out of their asses. JMHO.

P.S For what it's worth I love the Viper, and if I thought it was a little more practical for my needs as a driver on these awful michigan roads I'd gladly have one in the garage! Can't beat the raw power of a V10, and I love the GTS bodystyle...

 

[Mike Brunton]

DBK,

Good points - don't be offended, this is a very biased audience. There are alot of things the Z06 does very well, enough so that after driving a few of them, I am MUCH less tolerant of DC's flaws in the Viper. After seeing how good a car can perform and how comfortable, quiet, smooth and enjoyable it can be, it's easy to look back at one's Viper and ask DC why we can't have similar levels of smoothness and comfort.

Having said that, the Viper ain't doing so bad considering it's essentially in it's 10th year. Would there be a Z06 if there was no Viper? Maybe not. And DC deserves all the kudos in the world for being the first to go back to Le Mans with their car... would GM be at LeMans if the Vipers didn't start the fight? I doubt it. The Viper still gets the nod in overall performance - not bad when it came out in it's current form 7 years ago.

Finally, I believe the floor on GTS prices is right around $50k, a tad higher than what a Z06 can be had for... so it's only fair to realize that anyone on this board with any sort of GenII Viper had the choice of a Z06 and decided against it. I don't mean that as a slam, but there aren't going to be very many here who think the Z06 is equal or better than the snake, regardless of how good it is (it's very good), or how close it comes (it comes very close!).

 

[Jim Hodel]

Did somebody want weights of a Z06 and Viper?

Our 99 GTS weighed 3450 on the truck stop scale and our 01 Z06 weighed 3150 pounds on the same scale. Both weights were without me, and with about a half a tank of gas.

For comaprison, my brother's 3000 GTVR4 weighed 3850 pounds and my road race prepped Z28 was 3350 pounds with a 4 point roll cage, racing seat, and no back seats, spare tire, jack, or stereo.

The weight of the Z06 is one of the great features of the car. I really wish Dodge could knock 2 or 3 hundred pounds off the Viper.

Jim

 

[onerareviper]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
Wow, you must have some serious issues...Considering there are a shade over 10k Z06's made thus far, at the end of year 2 of a 3 year run, I don't think everyone and their dog has one. Unless the population just dwindled by about 260 million people...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

DBKZ06,

No offense, guy, but most American's can't tell the difference between the C5-LS1 or C5-Z06. Therefore, they lump them into the same pile. Sure, they drive/perform a bit different. And yes, us fanatics can tell the difference. But the problems is they look almost identical. This was the same problem with the C4-LT1 and C4-ZR1. I never considered the ZR1 or Z06 for this reason. C5 are a dime a dozen, as I see at least one everyday. When I am spending 50+ thousand, I want something that is going to be a little more unique, other than a sticker that says 405 HP. That being said, I do think the Z06 is an incredible performance car, at any price. But it is a few steps behind the Gen II Vipers, in everything but braking. Is the Viper worth the extra 25K-30K solely based on the performance difference? Maybe/maybe not. But that extra $$$ spent gives you a car that is unique, exotic, one-of-a-kind, no-hold-bared, kick as* supercar, that is sure to be a collectable. And I do think you make up the difference, or at least most of it in resale. This is the reason I decided to spend the extra doe and get the Viper. That being said, if GM decides to come out with a C6-ZR1/Z06/whatever, and gives it unique styling that doesn't look like every other base model Vette on the road, I might reconsider.

My .02

 

[zoomie]

Va/Md VCA region at the Md Int Raceways, Mid Atl F-body/Vette/Viper track day May 18:

real track figures, average to better drivers, mostly stock GTS and RTs.. '94, '95, '96, '97, '99, '00, '02

lessee.. 11.29.. 11.6 11.7 12.02 12.07...

----------------

 

[Mike Brunton]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by toddt:
but vetteboy got my goat and shook it around a bit. Again, let me humbly offer my apology for sounding off rudely.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think we've all learned a lesson here... can we get a group hug?

The lesson is never to let a Vette owner touch your goat, because you never if he might just want to shake it a bit.