dipapa
Enthusiast
Thanks allot Todd @ A&C Performance for working with me getting the right mods and dialing in that VEC3 nicely. took some good work and we reached my goal of at least 700rwhp.
05 Paxton Dyno - 733rwhp
- Thread starter dipapa
- Start date
dipapa
Enthusiast
Here is the Dyno Graph
Attachments
dipapa
Enthusiast
Stock pistons, heads, cam, injectors, heads and stock mufflers. A couple neat additions on the Paxton S/C kit courtesy Todd Abrams @ A&C Performance. We also did allot of work on the exhaust for the right balance of power and sound.
I have had owned the car for 1 year and I went through allot of dyno tuning bot N/A and S/C. Took many iterations to get that VEC3 with S/C tuning worked out. Thanks to A&C Performance, and much determination and I think the car is finally where it needs to be and I have reached my goal for good power and drivability both part throttle and WOT.
The data is SAE corrected. I was running 91 oct and it was 90-95 degrees in the shop. After we felt the tuning was optimized we let the car cool for 30 minutes. The times stamps between 3 dyno were 15 minutes. The first 2 runs were very identical. By the third run, same tune, I believe we were getting a bit heat soaked. Thats the only explanation i have for the 2% lower change for the 3rd run.
Thanks Todd for all your dedication and getting my car done right!
GoCanes1
Enthusiast
Todd is an amazing tuner and builder. Congrats on the great numbers!!
dipapa
Enthusiast
After much tuning work im overall satisfied. I was gonna go AEM, however just too much costs to do this on stock motor. I knew the car was capable of 725-750 hp on 91 oct... had seen a couple others that were up there. He worked on the mostly timing advance safely and balancing A/F considerably. Of course the built motor, is another power level completely, however i decided it better to put the 25K more required for that into other stuff.
Right now i would like the motor to feel a bit smoother at higher rpms and rev up faster so we are gonna do the flywheel. I got the 3.33 rear and I think that optimal for a S/C car. I dont want to have to shift so much.The viper motor is inherently rough and vibrates a bit more than other super car motors so i wil try the flywheel and compare the change. Dont want to alter the stock motor internally right now.
Right now i would like the motor to feel a bit smoother at higher rpms and rev up faster so we are gonna do the flywheel. I got the 3.33 rear and I think that optimal for a S/C car. I dont want to have to shift so much.The viper motor is inherently rough and vibrates a bit more than other super car motors so i wil try the flywheel and compare the change. Dont want to alter the stock motor internally right now.
dipapa
Enthusiast
Well the car does the "Bucking Bronco" just a bit around 2500 in 1st gear. I like that...it feels responsive and ready to romp when that happens. I actually like to get a little more of that into the car, however im not sure if it can be done through tuning or its a feature of the throttle body or TPS?
Any info be good on this.
Honestly, ultimate power is good, however to have a very responsive part throttle is allot of fun for every day use. When i purchased the car bone stock with only 3500 miles the part throttle response of the car absolutely sucked!!!
dipapa
Enthusiast
Its fine and not doing anything a normal viper motor would not do. I just said the viper motor is inherently by design a rough motor that vibrates more than other motors so i like to smooth this out a bit. I had a 500 rwhp S/C E46 M3 and S/C C5 Z06 and they were much smoother motors from stock to even after the mods.
i disagree, mine is smooth all thru the rpm's . how much tuning did A&C do on it ? was there street tuning for a day or so at least, along with dyno tuning ?
at 2500 rpm's that thing should be screaming rather than doing the bucking bronco. you shouldn't be holding that rpm unless you were getting ready to go WOT in my opinion. nobody would drive around in first gear at that rpm
maybe im wrong, but it doesn't sound right. it could be your wording i guess. but bucking and a solid running car shouldn't be said in the same sentence.
at 2500 rpm's that thing should be screaming rather than doing the bucking bronco. you shouldn't be holding that rpm unless you were getting ready to go WOT in my opinion. nobody would drive around in first gear at that rpm
maybe im wrong, but it doesn't sound right. it could be your wording i guess. but bucking and a solid running car shouldn't be said in the same sentence.
dipapa
Enthusiast
I think it more appropriate to explain what's your definition of smooth? What makes your motor so smooth? I had a new stock gen 3 viper.... It's ok. Above 5k there is vibration, it's not as violent as a gen2 motor but it's not as smooth as several other german or *** 500 hp cars I have owned.
I have done over 120 dyno pulls modifying it slowly and consistently and still 6-10% leakdown.
Todd will vouch for this motor and tune.
I'm talking about rolling at 2500-3000 part throttle in first sometimes in second. It bucks a bit sometimes a little bucking can really start to resonate!
Have you never heard of the "bucking bronco".... it's like when your banging you gf and you say another womans name and you see how long you can still hold on!
I have done over 120 dyno pulls modifying it slowly and consistently and still 6-10% leakdown.
Todd will vouch for this motor and tune.
I'm talking about rolling at 2500-3000 part throttle in first sometimes in second. It bucks a bit sometimes a little bucking can really start to resonate!
Have you never heard of the "bucking bronco".... it's like when your banging you gf and you say another womans name and you see how long you can still hold on!
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Hi. 733 RWHP is about 80 RWHP above the typical, and safe, power level for a Gen III with stock internals and a Paxton kit. Please post the A/F portion of your dyno chart. I suspect that you are running leaner than you should be to obtain the posted power results. Basic physics control the numbers and the variance here is too much unless you are running lean. There are posts on this board from members who learned this the hard way. As for smoothness, the stock Paxton kit on a stock Gen III engine, if installed to Paxton's specs by an experienced installer like Woodhouse or DC Performance, should not be bumpy anywhere in the RPM range. The car should run smoothly like it came from the factory.
dipapa
Enthusiast
I never said the car was bumpy... Their is a bit of bucking engaging clutch in first and it feels great. The throttle response is so sensitive and instant one small tap on the throttle with that first gear ratio seriously lunges the car forward. The part throttle tuning, aggresove timing and tps adjustment made the throttle response absolutely exceptional! I'm running a/f at 11.8-12 wot across the rpm's.
Glad to hear it is running smoothly. The A/F seems OK to me. That makes the results even more mysterious. Perhaps your tuner can explain how 733RWHP is possible at your A/F levels on a stock engine with a Paxton kit. Unless I am missing something, the number just does not make sense. Just as a point of reference, I have a Paxton set up with the DC Performance blower tune, etc. with stock internals and a Corsa Catback exhaust. On January 6, 2009, at 86.35 degrees, 30.18 in-HG, humidity: 46%, STD 1.02, Max power was 669.03 RWHP and 617.68 RWTQ after smoothing. My A/F is about the same as your A/F. My test was done on a Dynojet Research dynomometer. Perhaps your tuner can jump in to this thread and explain the 733 RWHP result. Thanks.
dipapa
Enthusiast
I do not have the gen3 Paxton S/C kit as distributed by Paxton. We upgaded many components that needed to be for this power keeping intake temp low, fumes out ( not smog legit) clean air in and then it's mostly all in the tuning. Excellent Forced induction tuning makes all the diference in the world. We went aggresove on timing but the motor liked it. from a few authorities, tuners I know, on a dyno jet this car will make another 3-4% higher numbers.
dipapa
Enthusiast
And I still have the stock gen3 mufflers.... Performance headers, cat & crossover delete of course.
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Next Phase
Enthusiast
What kind of 1/4 mile times? (Expect?)
GoCanes1
Enthusiast
Todd would not build an unsafe car! He is EXTREMELY picky and does things the right way. My Roe car ran like a ***** ape and was safe for many miles.
Sorry. Even with what you say above, the number does not make sense. The stock internals will only take so big an explosion in the cylinders before something goes boom. The number is above the safe tolerance of stock internals. It also is beyond what the improvements you mention above would produce. What boost level are you running? Did he change the pulley? If it is above the boost level of the stock kit, it might explain your number but it also means your engine is at risk. Paxton knew what they were doing when they dveloped the kit. It is well tested and has now been on quite a few cars, without any issues, for more than 15,000 miles - including mine.
If your set up really is safe that is great but I suspect that what has been done exceeds the tolerance level of the stock engine components. I would like to see the tuner post and explain how the stated level of power is safe with stock engine internals. There are many posts on this site which seem to indicate that 733 RWHP, which is equivaent to 833 flywheel HP using a 12% driveline loss, is well beyond where a Gen III engine with stock internals should be. Ask yourself this question: Do you really think Dodge and SRT designed the Gen III stock 510 HP engine with a 323 HP extra tolerance built into it? the answer is clearly - No.
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dipapa
Enthusiast
I'm not gonna get into a ******* match. You believe what you like And what you hear about what's possible and not and what the pistons can handle and can't. Myself and Todd went through great lengths to maximize power, reliability an safety. I am not defying physcis here, Todds dyno does not lie I was there for hrs in the shop with him and I never signed any waivers when we dynoed his work and he did not do anything unsafe. We did go 2 steps forward 1 step back sometimes but I got a hell of allot of dyno runs and road tests to get where this car is now.
ACPERFORMANCE
Viper Owner
I'd be happy to jump in. Most Gen3's on my Dyno Dymanics dyno run anywhere from 650-675 rwhp with about 600-620 rwtq with the split second box headers and exhaust. This is with the stock paxton tune in the split second and a clean a/f of about 11.4-11.9 out the tailpipe.
On 90% of our cars unless requested otherwise by our customers, we like to weld in bungs on the header to measure before the cat. On our dyno, we've seen anywhere from .4-.6 change before and after the cat.
The split second leaves ALOT of power on the table. It's designed to work on EVERY car so it's extremely safe. I know most tuners use the bigger FMU washer to help accomplish the safety factor.
We actually, just for comparison, had a customer make 558 rwhp on our dyno on his 2008 and then go to another dyno (dyno jet) and make 565rwhp. Possibly weather conditions, oil temps lower, etc but runs still very similiar.
Our dyno seems very "real world" not exaggerated.
I've had cars with Paxtons, headers, exhaust, upgraded intercooler, split second and other tuners tunes come to my shop and only show 670-675 with 635 or so tq.
Dimitri's car has countless hours of part throttle timing changes, driveability in even the oddest of conditions, full pulls and part runs on the dyno emphasizing on particular rpms that he spends the most time in, in addition to some various changes that we dont include in our average builds.
This particular car drives like stock. if you hold it in first gear it may experience a slight "viper surge" that most stock vipers have, but nothing i've even noticed. It has a slightly different merge collector than most headers, and the car has incredible leakdown numbers. I usually see 700ish on my dyno give or take 15rwhp with torque between 650-700 when using the Vec. I wont give exact specifics as to what timing curve this car has, but will say this car will make over 700 rwhp on a bad day, shows no signs of knock and the plugs show no signs of detonation.
In addition, I'd say anybody could get in this car that owns a similiar setup and honestly say if feels unusually strong.
I wouldn't promise 733rwhp to anybody running a stock bottom end. BUT we did accomplish it with this car. I will say the timing is aggressive, but this particular engine seems to like it, and dimitri was there on the last tuning session after we did the breather system and some other minor tweaks. I do thorough checks to assure a sound motor before even pushing the envelopes. We all know how weak the gen3 pistons are.
Dimitri has some "unique mods to his headers, exhaust, sensors (yes sensors) and it has all worked amazing.
This is the highest rwhp stock motored gen3 paxton car that has left our shop. Not everybody will achieve these numbers, but we can gaurantee a 690-700rwhp paxton setup, with 650-700rwtq, on straight 91 octane fuel when we pick the parts to be used.
Todd
Air fuel on this car tapers from mid to low 12's coming up on 4krpm then from 11.9-12.1 through redline.
On 90% of our cars unless requested otherwise by our customers, we like to weld in bungs on the header to measure before the cat. On our dyno, we've seen anywhere from .4-.6 change before and after the cat.
The split second leaves ALOT of power on the table. It's designed to work on EVERY car so it's extremely safe. I know most tuners use the bigger FMU washer to help accomplish the safety factor.
We actually, just for comparison, had a customer make 558 rwhp on our dyno on his 2008 and then go to another dyno (dyno jet) and make 565rwhp. Possibly weather conditions, oil temps lower, etc but runs still very similiar.
Our dyno seems very "real world" not exaggerated.
I've had cars with Paxtons, headers, exhaust, upgraded intercooler, split second and other tuners tunes come to my shop and only show 670-675 with 635 or so tq.
Dimitri's car has countless hours of part throttle timing changes, driveability in even the oddest of conditions, full pulls and part runs on the dyno emphasizing on particular rpms that he spends the most time in, in addition to some various changes that we dont include in our average builds.
This particular car drives like stock. if you hold it in first gear it may experience a slight "viper surge" that most stock vipers have, but nothing i've even noticed. It has a slightly different merge collector than most headers, and the car has incredible leakdown numbers. I usually see 700ish on my dyno give or take 15rwhp with torque between 650-700 when using the Vec. I wont give exact specifics as to what timing curve this car has, but will say this car will make over 700 rwhp on a bad day, shows no signs of knock and the plugs show no signs of detonation.
In addition, I'd say anybody could get in this car that owns a similiar setup and honestly say if feels unusually strong.
I wouldn't promise 733rwhp to anybody running a stock bottom end. BUT we did accomplish it with this car. I will say the timing is aggressive, but this particular engine seems to like it, and dimitri was there on the last tuning session after we did the breather system and some other minor tweaks. I do thorough checks to assure a sound motor before even pushing the envelopes. We all know how weak the gen3 pistons are.
Dimitri has some "unique mods to his headers, exhaust, sensors (yes sensors) and it has all worked amazing.
This is the highest rwhp stock motored gen3 paxton car that has left our shop. Not everybody will achieve these numbers, but we can gaurantee a 690-700rwhp paxton setup, with 650-700rwtq, on straight 91 octane fuel when we pick the parts to be used.
Todd
Air fuel on this car tapers from mid to low 12's coming up on 4krpm then from 11.9-12.1 through redline.
Hi. I am not trying to argue with you. If the 733 RWHP number is correct, it cannot be safe based on stock internals. There is not 323 HP of extra tolerance built into the stock engine. I researched the tolerance issue before modding my car. My research included a talk with a retired person from the SRT staff. But, don't go by what I say. I suggest that you give some of our site sponsor tuners a call. I know of two that have installed over 100 paxton kits. I am only trying to help you prevent a future problem. With that, I wish you the best of luck and good times with your Viper.
Thanks for the post. You seem to be saying that D received an exceptional engine from the factory. Correct? But, even with that assumption, my data showed that there is not 323 HP of extra tolerance in the stock internals. You might get away with it for awhile, but the probability of a problem occurring due to it has to be increased to some extent. Do you agree? If not, please explain where the extra stock part tolerance is coming from. Thanks in advance for you reply. I appreciate your taking the time to post.
ACPERFORMANCE
Viper Owner
and also Bobpantax,
as far as what your stating with the stock internals. Your 100% right. Dodge didn't build this engine, 2003-2006 for even any type of forced induction. ****ty rods, even ****tier pistons, low tension oil rings, and other internals leaving much to be desired in my opinion. There's much room for improvement. EVEN externally to assure these parts have a chance at lasting with these types of cylinder temps and pressures.
They do make good power and the slightest unsafe condition can be horrific. Depending on the customer and their requests, really depends on how far I will push the components.
as far as what your stating with the stock internals. Your 100% right. Dodge didn't build this engine, 2003-2006 for even any type of forced induction. ****ty rods, even ****tier pistons, low tension oil rings, and other internals leaving much to be desired in my opinion. There's much room for improvement. EVEN externally to assure these parts have a chance at lasting with these types of cylinder temps and pressures.
They do make good power and the slightest unsafe condition can be horrific. Depending on the customer and their requests, really depends on how far I will push the components.
Agreed. It speaks well of you that you posted here in response to my concerns. I respect that. It does not always happen that way around here.
ACPERFORMANCE
Viper Owner
Honesty goes a long way.
Even though we have supercharged Gen3 Vipers out there with some approaching 25k supercharged miles, every Gen3 owner takes a chance.
If I had it my way and could offer a cost effective engine build to assure a little safety it'd be nice. Crank oiling mods, real dampner, rods, pistons, rings, and bolts, go a long way. Just not everybody wants to put this into the budget.
I'd even like to say that Dimitri's car will see 30k miles. Truth is it probably wont see too many, we're already talking about a built motor, head work, fuel system to get to the 1000rwhp mark. Power is addicting.
Todd
Even though we have supercharged Gen3 Vipers out there with some approaching 25k supercharged miles, every Gen3 owner takes a chance.
If I had it my way and could offer a cost effective engine build to assure a little safety it'd be nice. Crank oiling mods, real dampner, rods, pistons, rings, and bolts, go a long way. Just not everybody wants to put this into the budget.
I'd even like to say that Dimitri's car will see 30k miles. Truth is it probably wont see too many, we're already talking about a built motor, head work, fuel system to get to the 1000rwhp mark. Power is addicting.
Todd
dipapa
Enthusiast
The bone stock data from around 1 year ago on the same Dyno Dynamics was 442rwhp & 470 rw ft-lbs
I went through a few stages here... N/A upgrades then S/C then a bit more S/C upgrades.
I ended up 1 year later on the same dyno as I started with 733rwhp & 685rw ft-lbs
a 291 rwhp gain
dipapa
Enthusiast
We are talking about tuning and data acquisition to maximize power. I say after that is done you can go to the track and verify if your measured power is consistent with your trap time. A good road tune may work good but thats 'seat of the pants" and not data. A dyno is a more accurate and controlled for measuring power than a trap speed or time. I sure hope the hp will match the trap speed. Im thinking 135 mph for good shifting and track conditions but i have not got there yet.
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Simms
Enthusiast
Great results, congrats!
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