10 second Paxton car
- Thread starter black mamba1
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black mamba1
Enthusiast
how do you do when you come up against Paxtonized Vipers in roll ons and at the track?
Who's Gen III is it? We definitely need the owner and/or DC to chime in here. This will put a lot of unasnwered questions to rest and just maybe the first open discussion about a possible naturally aspirated head-cam package on a GenIII. Is it posible to get the dyno sheet for this car? Even betterm maybe even overlayed with a bolt on genIV dyno sheet?
I am very interested in N/A power. I am looking to upgrade in the future to roughly 550 to 600 to the wheels. This sounds like a realistic option. My only concern is how drivable it would be and how much it would need to be tinkered with.
I am very interested in N/A power. I am looking to upgrade in the future to roughly 550 to 600 to the wheels. This sounds like a realistic option. My only concern is how drivable it would be and how much it would need to be tinkered with.
dun4791
Viper Owner
I have decided to go ahead and take the plunge and Paxtonize my Viper, and I am going to do it this summer (while I still have a little money!).
My goal is a 10 second capable car in the 1/4 mile, able to pull away from just about anything in a roll on. My forged internals can handle over 900 rwhp...but I dont really need to go that high. I will be changing to lighter wheels to help offset the weight increase in the nose.
My question is:
What is the best way to build a 10 second 1/4 mile Paxtonized Viper keeping my stock 3:07 rear end? I dont want power just to have power. If Jamie Furman can run 10.93 or so in a 540 rwhp Gen IV, I should be able to run at least 10 flat in a 740 rwhp car, right? What will it take to make this happen?
Send your car to UGR........
The Gen 3 packgae you are speaking of uses the JM stage 3 heads, a custom cam profile, a modified intake manifold and merge 5 to 1 headers (no rocker change and stock bottom end) With the right balance of cylinder pressure and cam timing we can get close to 600whp. The idle is a little choppy and you can expect just a little low speed surging at light throttle, otherwise it drives perfect. You can drive this setup everyday.
With a slightly smaller cam, you will loose about 30whp but it will idle and run with "production like"
driveability.
With a slightly smaller cam, you will loose about 30whp but it will idle and run with "production like"
driveability.
shooter_t1
Has Left the Room!
Could you give a ballpark $ on this set-up?. I want to run the road courses more, and am thinking of taking the Paxton off of my car. I probably loose 60 to 80rwhp due to heatsoak anyway, so 600rwhp N/A would be about perfect.
Thanks
Hey Dan its Joe is there any concievable way a cam the size of the one i used to run in my old Gts (Crower Stage two plus= close to 600 lift over 234 duration at 50 )is going to come any where near passing emissions or not altering driveability ,vacume ect.
pteam
Viper Owner
I would say at the drag strip you will almost certainly need slicks. I spun at the strip in all 4 gears with ps2s and next time I go back I'll need to buy a set of spare rear rims and run the A6's or R6's whatever it is the viper guys run.
To get an ET DEFINATELY the problem with slicks is SOONER OR LATER there is going to be driveline issues.Years ago i used to race Vipers with a guy named Don Nace (now a professional drag racer )who ran nothing but slicks and skinnys.It was not uncommen for him (Don )to go thru a tranny and numerious rear ends yearly in his Viper.IRS and 1.3 sixty foot times dont do well together.You have to ask yourself if the added traction is worth the cost of the repairs?
pteam
Viper Owner
Well the problem I had at the drag strip with 800 horsepower was spinning in all 4 gears and generally unsafe conditions due to lack of traction. Bmamba would have more horsepower than me and ps2s would probalby not be sufficent enough for drag strip conditions. His car just like mine probably isnt a drag strip alot type of car but a street warrior so slicks wouldnt be on the car too often. (for example I havnt been to the drag strip this whole year yet, as honestly I"m scared to until I get more tire grip)
Agreed 100% the above is the exact point i tried to get thru to Mamba as really after 600 to the flywheel (on Pilots) nothing gets the the ground anyway in the quarter .
pteam
Viper Owner
1BADGTS,
Do you recommend slicks or drag radials? For performance vs. reliability / not breaking stuff / traction.
Do you recommend slicks or drag radials? For performance vs. reliability / not breaking stuff / traction.
The drag radial is a compromise, for the ultimate ET shot you have to run the slicks,skinnys (front sway bar removed ).With the drag radial a great driver can pick up a few tenths with the slick close to a second (horsepower dependent ).Like almost everything else in life it all comes down to the money,aggreviation somewone is willing to go through .I observed first hand over and over what happened to Nace(Bought the COSTLY slicks ,skinnys complete with new wheels .Drove the car to the track- stock tires along with another truck used to transport slicks tools ect .Switched everything over at the track including removal of the front sway bar )Ran approx 7 tenths faster than my GTS with the same motor mods ran.Blew up a rear and or a tranny . Got flatbedded 20 miles to Modern Performance to repair broken parts and two to 7 grand later was ready to REPEAT the entire event again.
PS i forgot to mention another big dollar hassle consideration .Putting slicks ect on any of these big power cars should have the owner flirting with or near 9 second ET and off the top of my head that requires full cage plus alot of other mandatory equiptment to be able to run at the track (check the NHRA rulebook ) This equiptment is quite expensive, hurts streetability and resale (try street driving and then selling a Viper with a ten point cage in it ,battery cut of switch ect )
pteam
Viper Owner
Will you be breaking stuff with drag radials?
You really should not(the amount of traction is no where near a slick ) BUT that to can depend on track prep (VHT )ect.As i said earylier when i was racing no sticky tire was worth (to me at least )the MAJOR COST, MAINT ECT problems that came with them since my Viper was driven on the street 3000 miles per year.I basically wanted to street drive it and go to the track (whenever )without problems.All in all between the mag tests and personal use my Gts probably had over 1000 runs on it down the strip (stock tires )and never once did i have a driveline related issue.Dont get me wrong I KNOW I WAS LEAVING a ton on the table( on stock tires the best it ever ran on motor was 11.2 at132)but .
PS Pteam I see from your mods your making great power. BEFORE i did or ordered anything else i really would CHECK THE NHRA RULEBOOK and see whats need for say low 10s 145 plus traps.(You may order the tires and get booted out orf the track after the first pass )as alot of equiptment may haver to be added.
I just spoke with a buddy of mine whose a tech inspect at Englishtown low 10s at mid 140s going to need Approved cage,shaft loop ,skattershield ,battery cutoff switch ,jacket ect.(after 150 mph trap=chute )and he added that ESP SINCE ITS A STREET CAR and a Viper (stands out )they break balls.These threads get started numbers are tossed aroung like nothing.Basically you want to run low 10s in the 145 plus range be prepared to butcher the car to get the proper saftey equiptment in there.
jamie furman
Enthusiast
I agree with you Joe, if you want to go real fast get a race car thats made for it and it will be a lot more fun and a lot less hassle, especially at tech. If you have a viper with 700 rwhp with street tires it is driveable and mid 10's are easily attainable. Yeah you leave some et on the table but you don't tear your car up and have a lot of extra expense due to breakage and track regulations. I have been down every racing road there is over the years and thats why the last few years you see me always running stock cars, because they make factory 10 second cars now and really there is very limited places you can use the hp those cars make stock except on a race track. I would say instead of adding hp go to racing school and kick everyones ass with the hp you already have!
NHRA - Rules & Regulations, Class & Time Brackets - Hot Rod
NHRA requires SFI approved scattershield, flywheel and clutch. Even STEEL valve stems required in tires. Arm restraints for open cockpit cars like roadsters at 11.99 and faster. SFI approved seat belts with correct dating.
One intelligent thing they changed is that you only have to chop your car to fit a 5 point cage - if your car has a stock floorpan and firewall until 10.0. That saves a dated window net and funnycar cage until 9.99. SFI Harmonic Balancer for 10.99 and faster. required front driveshaft loop (not sure about axle loops) about 13.00.
Article doesn't have much info but the scattershield should be able to be installed for about $5000? If you have to modify the frame or floorplan for the scattershield, you need to instal a funnycar cage, window net, etc. If you cut the scattershield that would cancel out the certification.
Seems that for 10s you need a fireproof jacket, but not pants or booties. There's a list of rules for the battery, holddowns etc as well (I don't think our stock holddowns are thick enough). Way too many rules. Way too many parts requirements.
GM built rear axles that left the car when they broke so everyone had to havbe the Dodge/Ford axle retention systems. GM auto flex plates had a tendency to explode so everyone (dodges included) had to upgrade to "certified" parts. GM '400' sb Harmonic Balancers were prone to explode and often take out fuel lines so all Dodges had to buy Harmonic Balancers, etc. etc. etc. Upset me because one of the reasons I ran Dodge was because of the super reliability of the parts and the superior reliability of the trans and rear axles. Then I have to buy expensive stuff to replace my perfect stuff because GM stuff blows up??? One of the reasons I don't frequent the race track any longer. Having to buy new seatbelts and window nets every 2 years was when I quit owning race only cars.
Ted
NHRA requires SFI approved scattershield, flywheel and clutch. Even STEEL valve stems required in tires. Arm restraints for open cockpit cars like roadsters at 11.99 and faster. SFI approved seat belts with correct dating.
One intelligent thing they changed is that you only have to chop your car to fit a 5 point cage - if your car has a stock floorpan and firewall until 10.0. That saves a dated window net and funnycar cage until 9.99. SFI Harmonic Balancer for 10.99 and faster. required front driveshaft loop (not sure about axle loops) about 13.00.
Article doesn't have much info but the scattershield should be able to be installed for about $5000? If you have to modify the frame or floorplan for the scattershield, you need to instal a funnycar cage, window net, etc. If you cut the scattershield that would cancel out the certification.
Seems that for 10s you need a fireproof jacket, but not pants or booties. There's a list of rules for the battery, holddowns etc as well (I don't think our stock holddowns are thick enough). Way too many rules. Way too many parts requirements.
GM built rear axles that left the car when they broke so everyone had to havbe the Dodge/Ford axle retention systems. GM auto flex plates had a tendency to explode so everyone (dodges included) had to upgrade to "certified" parts. GM '400' sb Harmonic Balancers were prone to explode and often take out fuel lines so all Dodges had to buy Harmonic Balancers, etc. etc. etc. Upset me because one of the reasons I ran Dodge was because of the super reliability of the parts and the superior reliability of the trans and rear axles. Then I have to buy expensive stuff to replace my perfect stuff because GM stuff blows up??? One of the reasons I don't frequent the race track any longer. Having to buy new seatbelts and window nets every 2 years was when I quit owning race only cars.
Ted
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Very well put.Alot of people on these forums simply dont realize what they are in for when they start modding and in turn try to race street cars in the thousand horsepower range (its crazy that they think that they can throw a blower on a Viper ,make 1000 horsepower, have the drivers ability to put the thing in the 9s and not have one issue after another.)
Guys the above statement is coming from probably the best driver in the country on stock street tires.
My car is blown, would easily go 9s without Nitrous and makes nearly 1000bhp and I have no "one issue after another" issues. 1Tony1 also has a GTS slightly more hp than mine and he enjoys his car. His car has gone 10.4 on stock tires and low 9s on slicks.
The "issues" with all these cars (blown, stock and modified) seems to be electronics and tuning, same as the rest of the modern cars.
IE; my Bluetooth failed. I drove to the stereo shop and in 15minutes we pulled out the stereo and switched microphones solving the problem.
Gov. rules and emmissions regs cause us to depend on tech that we can barely understand. But all these cars are mostly reliable. We have 100,000mi. Roe blower cars and I'm sure that there is or will soon be a Paxton blower car with 100,000mi. or close to it.
As of yesterday I have 47,500+ miles on my Roe blown and nearly everything modified GTS. The only problem I have is changing the MSD fuseholder (see thread).
But, modify YOUR Viper the way you want it. Don't spend too much effort for the racetrack as making it NHRA legal after a blower instal ruins the cars driving ability without appreciably making the car any safer. NHRA's rules are an attempt to keep unsafe JUNK off the track. In my racing days I saw cars pass tech that had ladder bars made from the guys 3/8" ornamental porch railings (Still don't understand how that thing got on the track and how it didn't break). I've helped clean up cars that lost suspension parts at the finish line and been saved by those rules as well.
As most people say, the Viper may go unbelievably fast in the quartermile, but it was designed to drive ... go, stop, right, left and pass better than every other car on the road.
Mod the car - but do it for YOUR REASONS, because YOU want it faster than a Veyron, etc.
What makes MY GTS the best car on the planet is that it's MY car. It's exactly the way I think a car should be.
Ted
The "issues" with all these cars (blown, stock and modified) seems to be electronics and tuning, same as the rest of the modern cars.
IE; my Bluetooth failed. I drove to the stereo shop and in 15minutes we pulled out the stereo and switched microphones solving the problem.
Gov. rules and emmissions regs cause us to depend on tech that we can barely understand. But all these cars are mostly reliable. We have 100,000mi. Roe blower cars and I'm sure that there is or will soon be a Paxton blower car with 100,000mi. or close to it.
As of yesterday I have 47,500+ miles on my Roe blown and nearly everything modified GTS. The only problem I have is changing the MSD fuseholder (see thread).
But, modify YOUR Viper the way you want it. Don't spend too much effort for the racetrack as making it NHRA legal after a blower instal ruins the cars driving ability without appreciably making the car any safer. NHRA's rules are an attempt to keep unsafe JUNK off the track. In my racing days I saw cars pass tech that had ladder bars made from the guys 3/8" ornamental porch railings (Still don't understand how that thing got on the track and how it didn't break). I've helped clean up cars that lost suspension parts at the finish line and been saved by those rules as well.
As most people say, the Viper may go unbelievably fast in the quartermile, but it was designed to drive ... go, stop, right, left and pass better than every other car on the road.
Mod the car - but do it for YOUR REASONS, because YOU want it faster than a Veyron, etc.
What makes MY GTS the best car on the planet is that it's MY car. It's exactly the way I think a car should be.
Ted
Everyones defination of running a car hard is different .Take a 1000 horsepower blower car hotlap the car in 95 degree heat (pro driver behind the wheel )7-8 times in a row add the slicks and there will be trouble.Your not hotlapping your car in 90 plus degree weather ,your not running slicks =DIFFERENT BALLGAME.
I spent 25 years proving that I could win every race against 100 times the money I had while street racing. Out of over 3,000 races I lost because I forgot to set my timing ONCE, some guy pissed in front of my slicks once and a trailered race car beat me ONCE. Now ... I make me happy. I've been building and racing cars all my life. If I thought there was a chance that someone would be able to come clsoe to my car on the street all I need to do is hook up the Nitrous Oxide Bottle.
"Run my car HARD"? How would I be able to do that? The only place I can give the car full throttle for more than 3 seconds is on a race track. I didn't ruin the car, it's a hightech best damn car on the road. Best looking car on the road and fastest car on the road. No rollcage except for the factory frame. That these DRs were only on the car to make it consistant (not fast) was proven by the WIN trophies at the V10 Nats slowed down to go 11.5. 10.5@139mph won't get you a trophy, it gets you banned from that track. Since they don't bring the V10 Nats here ... it may be a couple more years before I go back east to kick ass. It takes an expert driver to slow the car down to stock times and still win with a 1,000hp car. Anybody can go 'all out'.
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I do plan to go back to PIR and even Mission Raceway for more HP Driving, but it's tough when they let those slow Porsches, Audi TTs etc. on the track and tell me "Don't pass". Can't run hard with all the slugs on the track. Out of all the cars on the track, they were ALL in my way after each set of corners. Can't go HARD when it's dependant on all the other cars.
My entire point of car modifications is make the owner happy, no one else. What makes me happy is having a car that kicks "race cars" all over the track without effort and not actually building a car that's only good for racing.
I hate phones, especially cell phones so I installed a Blue tooth stereo. It doesn't make my car any faster, but to answer the phone I just say, "Hello" and I'm in the conversation. I don't have to find the phone (in the trunk) or even try to hear that tiny speaker as the Blue tooth makes it sound like the other person sits in the passenger seat.
Ted
Ted what iam saying is its a TOTALLY DIFFERENT WORLD when you actually take a 1000 horsepower Viper go to a MAJOR NHRA Track (where thousands of people race nightly )and run your car with full slicks to try to post a LOW ET.You may not have had any problems BUT thats your limited experiance .Over the years my cars (often driven by the best of the best )actually competed in MANY VCA sponsered Viper events held at mega tracks like Englishtown.Over the years i set up many many mag tests involving Vipers THAT WERE TUNED BY THE BEST IN THE BUSINESS .The common FACT with all the above is if a driver the level of Evan Smith or Jamie Furman runs them hard (continuous hotlapping)esp with Slicks major ISSUES arise.
jamie furman
Enthusiast
Ted your posts are insane! I have news for you, Vipers break just like every car when modified past the point of the factory engineered parts limit. You rant and rant about Dodge is great and everything else *****, except those Dodge badged Mitubishi's you are so proud of. If you open up your eyes and your mind you might be surprised to find there are a lot of awesome cars out there made by many different companies. I am pretty positive if they designed a new Vette or Mustang or whatever without your knowledge and debadged it and put Dodge embems on it and told you it was a new Dodge model you would be on this board bragging about another superior Dodge product! Then the minute they tell you its just a debadged Mustang you would be running it down, I think your rebadged Mitsubishi Daytona's are proof positve of that. I really feel kind of sorry for you that you have such a closed mind and don't get the chance to experience all the new technology, performance and styling that is being developed every day by individuals somewhat like yourself working for other companies besides Dodge. Before they had Vipers I was partial to Vettes, ZR1's specifically but I am open minded and when I saw the first GTS's I knew that would be my next car and I think the Viper was the best thing that ever happened to the Corvette as it has pushed the Corvette to be better and it has, and it has worked the other way as well. When I read your posts I find them to be one of a kind as the circumstances surely only happen in your world and are surely not common in places where I drive or race which is pretty extensive. I hope one day the ether wears off and you are able to take the blinders off and make real world comparisons based on experience rather than preference, and if or when you do you will find out as wonderful as the Viper may be to you there are other cars out there that are just as capable as a Viper in performance and many that are far superior in many other aspects of driving other than accelleration.
Ted ,please READ and LEARN from Jamies above post.If anywone out there is qualifyed to comment on this topic its Jamie as he holds almost EVERY DRAG RACING RECORD there is for stock American production cars.
I'm not sure why youn guys keep making sh-t up and bashing me for YOUR BS???
My second choice for a muscle car with a back seat is a Shelby GT 500. I've been shopping for 1 since before I bought the wife's new Hemi pickup. Challenger SRT8 is $70,000 here.
badgts says you are great at breaking cars. I don't break many cars - and yah, Dodge is the best. ACR is the fastest around the ring. No fantasy in my life.
You'll also notice that I don't tell you all about YOUR and badgts's thoughts and minimal life experiences - because (unlike you guys) I admit I don't know you so I can't know your thoughts any more than you could know mine.
I have GM epxerience and as sI've stated in many posts the company has some issues (like exploding pu gas tanks) that show their social responsibility. Your OK with GM not fixing the gas tanks for decades? OK, but not me. I have many GM experiences, nearly all bad. Wheels falling off of car because the axles broke, 400 harmonic balancers blowing up and cutting fuel lines during drag racing, etc. You have your opinion and it's not mine.
Guess we have different experiences in life. Your fun in life is insulting Dodge guys?
Ted
My second choice for a muscle car with a back seat is a Shelby GT 500. I've been shopping for 1 since before I bought the wife's new Hemi pickup. Challenger SRT8 is $70,000 here.
badgts says you are great at breaking cars. I don't break many cars - and yah, Dodge is the best. ACR is the fastest around the ring. No fantasy in my life.
You'll also notice that I don't tell you all about YOUR and badgts's thoughts and minimal life experiences - because (unlike you guys) I admit I don't know you so I can't know your thoughts any more than you could know mine.
I have GM epxerience and as sI've stated in many posts the company has some issues (like exploding pu gas tanks) that show their social responsibility. Your OK with GM not fixing the gas tanks for decades? OK, but not me. I have many GM experiences, nearly all bad. Wheels falling off of car because the axles broke, 400 harmonic balancers blowing up and cutting fuel lines during drag racing, etc. You have your opinion and it's not mine.
Guess we have different experiences in life. Your fun in life is insulting Dodge guys?
Ted
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