10 second Paxton car

[Camfab]

I know, I know, I opened a can of worms. The real question is, how good are your existing heads......were they done by Greg Good? If so, a simple bump in compression (ok it's not that simple) with a better cam will (could) yield 600+ rwhp. My Gen II has a bone stock rotating assembly, just a cam and head package. The key of course is the Striker Heads, that's the key to every motor (in particular N/A motors). I'm over 585 RWHP with matching torque AND it passes emissions like a brand new car (0 hydocarbons at 2500 rpm). What's your compression ratio at now? N/A motors love to be above 10:0-1 compression.

Sorry if I side tracked you, but it's something to think about. Certainly ultimately a blown car done right can be the most exciting rush, I actually would love both combo's. The nitrous idea can certainly be a way to temp the gods at a reasonable cost. In fact now that I think about it, your motor sounds like a perfect nitrous set up (lower comp and forged pistons). Just remember nitrous is a double edged sword, done right it's the greatest, one mistake and you can build a new motor.

 

[black mamba1]

I would rather stay n/a and get extra power. I need to be clear about something; I really do not believe all the hype when it comes to more power more power more power. Guys get 700 rwhp, then want more. Guys get 800 rwhp w/ a Paxton, then want to go TT. And all most of these guys I respect tremendously.

But I am a maniac on the road. And I push my car hard. When I track my car, I track it to win. The 600 fly wheel hp ACR did a set a record at the Gring.

Now, having said all that, a 600 rwhp car can be obtained with a stock lower end. Chuck built my motor to handle the severe stresses and power of a Roe Blower (that never materialized) up to 900 rwhp. Since I eventually would like a Gen 4 and want to keep it n/a, it seems practical to go ahead and blow this motor and get some f/i power experience.

But I am still curious. ...could I just buy Stryker heads and get the c/r and power up to 600 rwhp or so? And what would this cost? My current c/r is around 8.6:1

 

[plumcrazy]

talk to greg on this but i think you'd need a lot of head work (which greg can do) and new pistons,rings, and likely a cam to get 10 - 10 1/2:1 CR which is what you will need to get 600rwhp. then you need UGR to tune the car and i think they only like to tune on the AEM. which i dont blame them. thats the problem for guys like me and you, when we are not doing our own wrenching like camfab. (i wont do it anymore)

i didnt add it up but im pretty sure its similar in cost for a paxton installed and tuned for you. cause most tuners wont wanna just throw in new pistons etc....theyre gonna want to go thru the engine and make it "theirs" since they have to live with you and it if there is a problem. I know UGR's engine builder and they will likely build the engine for MORE than the 900rwhp yours is built for now......so in reality you would end up rebuilding the entire engine. but dont go by what i say, call UGR and see what kevin says.

 

[black mamba1]

talk to greg on this but i think you'd need a lot of head work (which greg can do) and new pistons,rings, and likely a cam to get 10 - 10 1/2:1 CR which is what you will need to get 600rwhp. then you need UGR to tune the car and i think they only like to tune on the AEM. which i dont blame them. thats the problem for guys like me and you, when we are not doing our own wrenching like camfab. (i wont do it anymore)

i didnt add it up but im pretty sure its similar in cost for a paxton installed and tuned for you. cause most tuners wont wanna just throw in new pistons etc....theyre gonna want to go thru the engine and make it "theirs" since they have to live with you and it if there is a problem. I know UGR's engine builder and they will likely build the engine for MORE than the 900rwhp yours is built for now......so in reality you would end up rebuilding the entire engine. but dont go by what i say, call UGR and see what kevin says.

.

Yeah, I will talk to them. I aint gonna rebuild this engine. I would rather get the maximum out of it as is rather than blow another 15-20k on a rebuild. If I have to do more than simply slap on Stryker heads, I aint gonna do it. I will just slap on the Paxton and go for it.

 

[Nader]

I am curious - what are you using to tune your car? How does it run? Are there any idle issues? I have heard tuning a car with a head and a decent cam is tough and will never run like it did stock.

I know, I know, I opened a can of worms. The real question is, how good are your existing heads......were they done by Greg Good? If so, a simple bump in compression (ok it's not that simple) with a better cam will (could) yield 600+ rwhp. My Gen II has a bone stock rotating assembly, just a cam and head package. The key of course is the Striker Heads, that's the key to every motor (in particular N/A motors). I'm over 585 RWHP with matching torque AND it passes emissions like a brand new car (0 hydocarbons at 2500 rpm). What's your compression ratio at now? N/A motors love to be above 10:0-1 compression.

Sorry if I side tracked you, but it's something to think about. Certainly ultimately a blown car done right can be the most exciting rush, I actually would love both combo's. The nitrous idea can certainly be a way to temp the gods at a reasonable cost. In fact now that I think about it, your motor sounds like a perfect nitrous set up (lower comp and forged pistons). Just remember nitrous is a double edged sword, done right it's the greatest, one mistake and you can build a new motor.

 

[ViperTony]

.

Yeah, I will talk to them. I aint gonna rebuild this engine. I would rather get the maximum out of it as is rather than blow another 15-20k on a rebuild. If I have to do more than simply slap on Stryker heads, I aint gonna do it. I will just slap on the Paxton and go for it.

Slap on the Paxton and go for it...with UGR you are in really good hands.

 

[plumcrazy]

I have heard tuning a car with a head and a decent cam is tough and will never run like it did stock.

i have a pretty decent cam in mine and it runs and idles perfect. at least as good as stock. its all in the tune and depends on who is tuning it.

Split second tuned by doug on my paxton setup

 

[black mamba1]

I am n/a and have slightly ported heads and the comp coupe cam I believe. My car runs fine...craaaazy torque. Oh...and I keep throwing codes. Left bank too rich, right bank too rich...etc

 

[JAY]

I believe Arrow Racing Engines are coming out with a GEN 4 Head and intake package for the GEN 3 Viper ,making 650 HP. They are located in Livonia,Michigan. Another option to consider? Cheers Jay

 

[1BADGTS]

I am curious - what are you using to tune your car? How does it run? Are there any idle issues? I have heard tuning a car with a head and a decent cam is tough and will never run like it did stock.

It all depends on the size of the cam (everyone THINKS they are running a big cam) for instance in my old Gen 2 i ran a FEW different cams the largest being a CROWER STAGE 2 PLUS which you cant run with stock PISTONS (valve clearance problems )The cam was close to 600 lift(1.7s in it ) like 242 At 50 duration.With a cam that big i dont care whose tuning it vacume -driveability are going to suffer (never mind trying to pass emissions )

 

[black mamba1]

I believe Arrow Racing Engines are coming out with a GEN 4 Head and intake package for the GEN 3 Viper ,making 650 HP. They are located in Livonia,Michigan. Another option to consider? Cheers Jay

Very interesting. What mods would we have to do in a Gen 3 in addition to mounting these heads? And what is the cost? Chrysler came out w/ a 550 hp Gen 3 engine in 07, but they wanted $26,995 for it. Isnt smoking crack illegal?

 

[Nader]

Take a look at the Dyno Day post from DC performance. They had a GenIII with a DC head & cam package which put 580 to the wheels. It was 30 or 40 hp more than any GenIV with mods. That is impressive.

I hope Dan would chime in here.

 

[black mamba1]

Take a look at the Dyno Day post from DC performance. They had a GenIII with a DC head & cam package which put 580 to the wheels. It was 30 or 40 hp more than any GenIV with mods. That is impressive.

I hope Dan would chime in here.

Does DC use a Dyno Jet or Mustang dyno?

 

[plumcrazy]

keith, what kind of driving/racing do you do ?

i assume driving and racing in mexico. if i were you id build it based on the racing you do most. if thats in mexico, its hard to beat a built motor w/paxton.

 

[Nader]

Keith if you read the thread Dan mentions it is a dynojet.

"We used the dynojet 224x. I must admit it was neat seeing that new ZR1 and Mustang Supersnake dyno, those blowers really whine. What really suprised everyone was that Anthaun Pham's 06 Viper made more power than both these blown cars, without a blower! Not bad for a heads and cam package."

Does DC use a Dyno Jet or Mustang dyno?

 

[1BADGTS]

Guys owned a Gen 4 and an Extremely modded Gen 2 (that did very well in competition )while both cars made almost the same amount of power (the Gen 4 trapped at almost 130 the Gen 2 trapped at almost 132 )you can not compare the DRIVEABILITY of the two not even remotely close.To get that number out of a GEN 2 or 3 the car HAS TO HAVE A large cam (and bottom end work) THAT WILL EFFECT DRIVEABILITY ,vacume, emissions ect .(On top of that is the warranty aspect).Put the supposide dyno numbers aside ask any tuner to GUARANTEE the car will beat a Gen 4 on motor alone in a race (not on the dyno ) from there see just how streetable the car will be.

 

[Darbgnik]

Guys owned a Gen 4 and an Extremely modded Gen 2 (that did very well in competition )while both cars made almost the same amount of power (the Gen 4 trapped at almost 130 the Gen 2 trapped at almost 132 )you can not compare the DRIVEABILITY of the two not even remotely close.To get that number out of a GEN 2 or 3 the car HAS TO HAVE A large cam (and bottom end work) THAT WILL EFFECT DRIVEABILITY ,vacume, emissions ect .(On top of that is the warranty aspect).Put the supposide dyno numbers aside ask any tuner to GUARANTEE the car will beat a Gen 4 on motor alone in a race (not on the dyno ) from there see just how streetable the car will be.

That high 580 rwhp NA gen 3 at DC dyno days passed california emissions, if it can pass emissions, surely it would be reasonably driveable wouldn't it? Hopefully Dan Cragin will chime in here. Again only driveability in question, not quickness.

 

[Nader]

Yes I hope Dan chimes in. Also consider that a genIV doesnt build additional power compared to a genIII under 3700 or so due to the cam in cam design. Also the GenIII has a bit more torque down low. My guess is a GenIII with a head/cam package and a good tune such as the one DC has should take a genIV especially with 30 more rear wheel hp.

But that is just my guess. I few dyno charts should prove power under the curve.

That high 580 rwhp NA gen 3 at DC dyno days passed california emissions, if it can pass emissions, surely it would be reasonably driveable wouldn't it? Hopefully Dan Cragin will chime in here. Again only driveability in question, not quickness.

 

[JAY]

3729 Auburn Rd Auburn Hills Mi 48326

PH# 248-852-5151 Here is the address and phone number to ARROW RACING ENGINES, for the head upgrade ,they had mentioned it was in the 5 to 6 thousand range, but give them a call to confirm. Cheers Jay

 

[1BADGTS]

That high 580 rwhp NA gen 3 at DC dyno days passed california emissions, if it can pass emissions, surely it would be reasonably driveable wouldn't it? Hopefully Dan Cragin will chime in here. Again only driveability in question, not quickness.

That is the inherent problem you cant have it both ways no way to make big power ,pass emissions and retain driveability (the above was a main reason for the cam in cam design of the Gen 4 ) .A dyno is a measuring tool nothing more (as NINE BALL put it too many are bench racing on dyno numbers not at the track )because a GEN 3 dyno sheet SAYS 580 to the tire does not mean it will beat a Gen 4 in a race if a part dyno on the Gen 4 reads only 540 to the tire.

 

[1BADGTS]

That is the inherent problem you cant have it both ways no way to make big power ,pass emissions and retain driveability (the above was a main reason for the cam in cam design of the Gen 4 ) .A dyno is a measuring tool nothing more (as NINE BALL put it too many are bench racing on dyno numbers not at the track )because a GEN 3 dyno sheet SAYS 580 to the tire does not mean it will beat a Gen 4 in a race if a part dyno on the Gen 4 reads only 540 to the tire.

Let me give you an example a buddy of mine Gen 2 once dynoed a over 615 to the tire (Bob Idas Dyno jet )at the track no matter who tried the car could not trap more than 125 mph .My gen 2 dynoes at 580(same dyno ) to the tire and trapped almost 132 .

 

[Darbgnik]

That is the inherent problem you cant have it both ways no way to make big power ,pass emissions and retain driveability (the above was a main reason for the cam in cam design of the Gen 4 ) .A dyno is a measuring tool nothing more (as NINE BALL put it too many are bench racing on dyno numbers not at the track )because a GEN 3 dyno sheet SAYS 580 to the tire does not mean it will beat a Gen 4 in a race if a part dyno on the Gen 4 reads only 540 to the tire.

Apples and oranges here, I'm only referring to driveability and not quickness on a 1/4 mile track. Thats the reason we're hoping for Dan to chime in. Just musing about it, if the car can run clean enough to pass emissions, it should be civilized enough to drive. Building an angry mistress motor that requires constant attention is fairly easy. The reason Dan's NA motor was brought up was because it can pass emissions, certainly not because it has the biggest NA dyno numbers ever seen, as it certainly does not. Nor does said dyno numbers equate to a fast car.

 

[1BADGTS]

Apples and oranges here, I'm only referring to driveability and not quickness on a 1/4 mile track. Thats the reason we're hoping for Dan to chime in. Just musing about it, if the car can run clean enough to pass emissions, it should be civilized enough to drive. Building an angry mistress motor that requires constant attention is fairly easy. The reason Dan's NA motor was brought up was because it can pass emissions, certainly not because it has the biggest NA dyno numbers ever seen, as it certainly does not. Nor does said dyno numbers equate to a fast car.

Exactly i agree my point being too much is made of dyno numbers as perf wise the car with the bigger dyno number really does not always win the race.As for DC great tuner who basically wrote the program for my Gen 2 before DfI were available .As the posted earlyier the numbers on the cam were slightly large.

 

[Camfab]

I am curious - what are you using to tune your car? How does it run? Are there any idle issues? I have heard tuning a car with a head and a decent cam is tough and will never run like it did stock.

1) DC did the tune and it's using the stock pcm.
2) It runs like a bat out of h@!!
3) It sounds quite nasty, if that's an issue.
4) That is correct and it took quite a bit of work on Chris's part to make it right.

Some side notes........I personally HATED the sound of a stock (including any car with headers and cat back) Viper, it had to sound nasty. My other goals were simple, it had to have 10 sec et potential which meant about 600 to the wheels. I also wanted the car to pass emissions (that was a dream), which it did. Here's the kicker, I wanted the same car which potentially just ran a 10 sec et with the same tires to be able to hit the road course. Most guys with any experience realize that that's pretty much a pipe dream.

I love blown cars but I don't have the big bucks you guys do. With a cream puff, a blown car was going to need forged pistons (I know myself, if 5psi is good then 18psi is a lot better), something that would take my build into the stratosphere. So when the chips fell, I went with the Striker heads and cam. The package done right is certainly more money than a stock Paxton kit. I did everthing myself (except the tune) and still spent over 10 grand. It's very close to my idea of a perfect car.........Four passes down the track under bad (hot and windy) conditions has yielded an 11.29 @ 129. It sounds mean and passes emissions. Is it as smooth as a stock Viper...NO, is it tame and easy to drive....NO, could a blown car be more civilized and driveable with the similar top end power...YES!!! Was that what "I" wanted...NO!!!

Different strokes for different folks, and if you've got the bucks......"you can have it your way"

 

[black mamba1]

Keith if you read the thread Dan mentions it is a dynojet.

"We used the dynojet 224x. I must admit it was neat seeing that new ZR1 and Mustang Supersnake dyno, those blowers really whine. What really suprised everyone was that Anthaun Pham's 06 Viper made more power than both these blown cars, without a blower! Not bad for a heads and cam package."

oh, ok.

thanks!

 

[black mamba1]

Did the DC or Arrow head and cam package car have headers and full exhaust also? Or was the exhaust stock? If not, does anyone tlhink that car would generate 600+ rwhp w/ a full Belanger exhaust sytem plus the head, cam job?

 

[black mamba1]

Yes I hope Dan chimes in. Also consider that a genIV doesnt build additional power compared to a genIII under 3700 or so due to the cam in cam design. Also the GenIII has a bit more torque down low. My guess is a GenIII with a head/cam package and a good tune such as the one DC has should take a genIV especially with 30 more rear wheel hp.

But that is just my guess. I few dyno charts should prove power under the curve.

This actually might help the Gen 4 help get better traction down low.

 

[black mamba1]

1) DC did the tune and it's using the stock pcm.
2) It runs like a bat out of h@!!
3) It sounds quite nasty, if that's an issue.
4) That is correct and it took quite a bit of work on Chris's part to make it right.

Some side notes........I personally HATED the sound of a stock (including any car with headers and cat back) Viper, it had to sound nasty. My other goals were simple, it had to have 10 sec et potential which meant about 600 to the wheels. I also wanted the car to pass emissions (that was a dream), which it did. Here's the kicker, I wanted the same car which potentially just ran a 10 sec et with the same tires to be able to hit the road course. Most guys with any experience realize that that's pretty much a pipe dream.

I love blown cars but I don't have the big bucks you guys do. With a cream puff, a blown car was going to need forged pistons (I know myself, if 5psi is good then 18psi is a lot better), something that would take my build into the stratosphere. So when the chips fell, I went with the Striker heads and cam. The package done right is certainly more money than a stock Paxton kit. I did everthing myself (except the tune) and still spent over 10 grand. It's very close to my idea of a perfect car.........Four passes down the track under bad (hot and windy) conditions has yielded an 11.29 @ 129. It sounds mean and passes emissions. Is it as smooth as a stock Viper...NO, is it tame and easy to drive....NO, could a blown car be more civilized and driveable with the similar top end power...YES!!! Was that what "I" wanted...NO!!!

Different strokes for different folks, and if you've got the bucks......"you can have it your way"

What kind of exhaust do you have? Are your headers stock? 11.2 is a kick ass time!

 

[Camfab]

I have the SVS stepped headers with burns merge collectors. The rest of the exhaust includes 3" metal matrix cats and the 3" Corsa exhaust.

 

[black mamba1]

I have the SVS stepped headers with burns merge collectors. The rest of the exhaust includes 3" metal matrix cats and the 3" Corsa exhaust.

Any difference you are aware of in what you have and the Belanger full exhaust system? Do you feel your set produces more power than the Belanger full exhaust system?